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sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3750 on: April 14, 2018, 08:44:14 PM »
There is some disagreement between the reported Spiez and the Porton Down positions:

"Gary Aitkenhead, the chief executive of the government’s Defence Science and Technology Laboratory (DSTL), said the poison had been identified as a military-grade novichok nerve agent ... "

“We were able to identify it as novichok"

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/03/porton-down-experts-unable-to-verify-precise-source-of-novichok

sidd

SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3751 on: April 14, 2018, 08:56:27 PM »

I could never understand why Russia would attack an old spy that they had released years ago, let alone why they would have used chemicals.

Putin's Kremlin is a Mafia-like, kleptocratic regime.
Why does the Mafia assassinate informants?  Often in an identifiable way as a Mafia "hit."  Sometimes including family members.

Why?  Not revenge; it's part of the business model.  If secrecy is essential and would-be informants can be tempted with money and refuge, then would-be informants must be motivated by fear to stay in line.

As I've pointed out, Russian intelligence services have recently been leaking like a sieve.  Time to re-motivate with more fear of repercussions.  Death by exotic toxin (or even mysterious undetermined deaths) telegraphs to would-be informants that traitors can never be safe, anywhere, at any time.

As long as the actual assassin gets away, the official denials can blunt any repercussions to national interests.  This is what we're seeing.  A temporary mutual exclusion of some diplomats is a small price to pay for security.

If Western intelligence services had an epidemic of agents committing treason and finding sanctuary in Moscow, I have little doubt that we'd hear of mysterious deaths among them.

This is all consistent with the business model of both sides.

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3752 on: April 14, 2018, 08:56:42 PM »
Besides, my new standard is ASLR's - "it's possible".
ALSR didn't say that, Comey did.
Quote
I honestly never thought these words would come out of my mouth, but I don’t know whether the current president of the United States was with prostitutes peeing on each other in Moscow in 2013. It’s possible, but I don’t know.

It's possible the chemical attack was a false flag.  That hasn't stopped you from repeatedly claiming it as fact.
Just what have I "repeatedly" claimed was a fact?


I'm less than positive that either the Salisbury or the Syrian "attacks" even took place.
I believe I've mentioned the possibility of sea food poisoning WRT the Skripals, and while I'd bet my life that Assad isn't stupid enough to have snatched defeat from the jaws of victory, it is of course "possible".


As far as the Pee Pee tapes go. Today I'm waiting to learn Putin's response to Trump's belligerent actions. It's "possible" that I don't really care if Stormy revives her carrier, or gets her own reality show.


Terry

SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3753 on: April 14, 2018, 09:03:25 PM »

Steve, you are wasting your time. This is effectively a Russian propaganda troll. Don't feed the trolls and parrots.

Martin,
I appreciate your effort to provide advice.  But Terry is definitely not a troll.  Some posts may have a trollish appearance, but I'm quite certain he's sincere.  He's been a valued contributor on ASIF from long before any political threads started.

I find it consternating that dubious references like RT, SputnikNews, and ZeroHedge seem to be the sources for various assertions.  Still, it's illuminating to me and (hopefully) the larger audience to dig deeper into odd assertions.

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3754 on: April 14, 2018, 09:03:44 PM »

I could never understand why Russia would attack an old spy that they had released years ago, let alone why they would have used chemicals.

Putin's Kremlin is a Mafia-like, kleptocratic regime.



How can you possibly know this?
What expertise do you have regarding Mafia, or Mafia like modes of operation.
When were you last in Moscow and where did you learn the Russian language?


Terry

Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3755 on: April 14, 2018, 09:10:58 PM »
There is some disagreement between the reported Spiez and the Porton Down positions.
There is not. The "disagreement" is yet another ridicu-lousy Russian propaganda lie. There are a dozen more. Enough for a few pages of "discussion" with Terry here.



Quote
Novitschok in Salisbury

In der Krise um den Giftanschlag von Salisbury greift Moskau die Glaubwürdigkeit des britischen Befunds an. Der Fachbereich Chemie des Labor Spiez hat jedoch keine Zweifel daran, dass die Briten den eingesetzten Kampfstoff richtig identifizierten und es sich um den Nervenkampfstoff Nowitschok handelt.

In Terry's spirit I am too lazy for the courtesy of posting a translation and giving a link. Rest assured, the quote above is authentic.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2018, 09:40:19 PM by Martin Gisser »

sedziobs

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3756 on: April 14, 2018, 09:13:14 PM »
Two of them recognise the present situation in Syria to be a rather obvious false flag.
Trump is being pushed from all sides to bomb Syria because of a painfully obvious false flag.
Two false flags in such rapid succession leads one to ask why TPTB are in such a rush?
As far as the recent false flag, drop in at RT and you will find video's of the chemical weapons facility that Assad's forces "liberated" just weeks ago.
The false flag in Britain is falling apart as we speak.
The false flag in Syria has little chance of success after Assad's forces videotaped the rebel chemical facility there.

I don't think you are a Russian troll or anything close to that as Martin has accused you of.  I think you're a very valuable part of this community with great insights.  But in this case, you have indeed repeatedly made references to a false flag as if it is factual.

SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3757 on: April 14, 2018, 09:20:32 PM »


How can you possibly know this?
What expertise do you have regarding Mafia, or Mafia like modes of operation.
When were you last in Moscow and where did you learn the Russian language?

Terry

Well, if one can't see Putin as a Mafia-like boss, then the scenario I've presented would make little sense.  Although, a patriotic, nationalistic leader might still employ comparable tactics in the interests of loyal service to the nation--motivating would-be informants to stay in line would still be an interest.

I don't think one needs to speak Russian to perceive a corrupt government.  How else did Putin amass many billions of dollars on a civil servant's salary?  Just one of many, many available references:
Vladimir Putin Is Reportedly Richer Than Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos Combined
http://fortune.com/2017/07/29/vladimir-putin-russia-jeff-bezos-bill-gates-worlds-richest-man/

As for having a rudimentary understanding of how the Mafia operates, it's not from watching The Godfather, but reading relevant reporting over several years a few decades. 

Greed and ruthlessness shouldn't come as a surprise about any power-amassing leader, East or West.

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3758 on: April 14, 2018, 09:30:32 PM »
The Bz thing seems to have gone viral with the majors from New York to Paris reporting the news. Can they all be Putin's Puppets?


BTW
When have I ever posted anything in other than English?
Where do people get these silly notions?


BTW2
When one side refers to an incident as a false flag, as the other refers to it as an chemical attack against innocents, that is the question up for debate. If everyone agreed that the Ruskies did it, or everyone agreed that the terrorists staged it, the thread would get pretty boring.
Boring only works for Musk. and sometimes that is debatable. 8)
Terry

Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3759 on: April 14, 2018, 09:37:14 PM »
But in this case, you have indeed repeatedly made references to a false flag as if it is factual.
And repeatedly parrots other Russian gems. Very much in the fashion of professional trolls... I admit their stuff is contagious for some (if you repeat a lie to yourself often enough...) and I tend to believe Terry is just a troll parrot. But for some proof of this I'd need to have a beer or two with him personally.

----------------
More from the Swiss lab: Excellent interview (in German) with their chief scientist, 1 week old:
https://www.nzz.ch/international/kein-zweifel-am-nowitschok-resultat-ld.1374775

(Link translates as: ...no-doubt-at-novichok-result...)
« Last Edit: April 14, 2018, 09:43:18 PM by Martin Gisser »

sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3760 on: April 14, 2018, 09:43:30 PM »
The link to the article that Mr. Gisser posted is :

https://www.nzz.ch/international/kein-zweifel-am-nowitschok-resultat-ld.1374775

It is from the 5th of April. The OPCW made the report Lavrov refers to on the 12th.

https://www.opcw.org/news/article/opcw-issues-report-on-technical-assistance-requested-by-the-united-kingdom/

Mr. Gisser's reference quotes an employee of Spiez Lab speaking a week before the OPCW results. I shall wait to see if Spiez has a comment on Lavrov speech. I would be surprised it they let it pass.

The Spiez employee states that there is no doubt it is Novichok. But Lavrov now claims the Spiez lab report says quite something else.


sidd

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3761 on: April 14, 2018, 09:50:28 PM »

As for having a rudimentary understanding of how the Mafia operates, it's not from watching The Godfather, but reading relevant reporting over several years a few decades

I bumped into a few from time to time in Las Vegas. Lefty was a regular customer until his car went boom. Franko was in touch every week or so until they found his head in Arizona and his feet in California - or was it the other way around.
Mrs Spilotro was opening a chain of fast foods when Tony and his brother were found in that corn field. I was bidding on the equipment.
Never heard of anyone being poisoned, but perhaps I wasn't listening.


They never should have killed all those beautiful lobsters.
You'd be amazed at what never makes the paper.


How can you call the most popular man in Russia the leader of a "regime"?
Look into Di Fi's finances, or Pelosi's and you'll find that leaders amass money, it's part of what they do. Remember when the Clintons left the white house worrying about their legal bills?
Terry

Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3762 on: April 14, 2018, 09:52:37 PM »
It is from the 5th of April. The OPCW made the report Lavrov refers to on the 12th.
Grasping at straws...

:) OK, so here's the link and the translation:
https://www.labor-spiez.ch/de/akt/index.htm#
Quote
In the crisis surrounding the Salisbury poison attack, Moscow attacks the credibility of the British findings. The Chemistry Department of the Spiez Laboratory, however, has no doubt that the British correctly identified the agent used and that it is Nowichok, the nerve agent.

Amazingly, it is not on the english version of their page. Surely there's something foul here :)

gerontocrat

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3763 on: April 14, 2018, 10:02:02 PM »
How can you call the most popular man in Russia the leader of a "regime"?

Terry

Popular by being a very clever dictator, e.g.s Mao Tse Tung, Stalin, Napoleon Bonaparte, Henry VIII, Queen Elizabeth I, Cromwell, Marcos, Peter the Great, Duterte, Erdogan etc etc etc etc.

Some make it to retirement or natural death. Many don't. (Only one Roman Emperor manged to retire - the rest were bumped off. The Roman emperor  Aurelius Valerius Diocletianus abdicated on May 1st, 305. He was sixty years old or so, had been Roman emperor for twenty years and had had enough. He decided to retire and grow vegetables in his home town of Split, on the Dalmatian coast of the Adriatic in Croatia.)
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3764 on: April 14, 2018, 10:08:08 PM »

... and I tend to believe Terry is just a troll parrot. But for some proof of this I'd need to have a beer or two with him personally.
Sorry, Terry doesn't drink beer.

Should I apologize for bringing you the story before the NYT? Isn't that what the internet is all about?

https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2018/04/14/world/europe/14reuters-britain-russia-skripal-lavrov.html

The NYT is obviously now a "troll parrot", or some such entity. Take them for a beer.
Terry

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3765 on: April 14, 2018, 10:17:58 PM »
How can you call the most popular man in Russia the leader of a "regime"?

Terry

Popular by being a very clever dictator, e.g.s Mao Tse Tung, Stalin, Napoleon Bonaparte, Henry VIII, Queen Elizabeth I, Cromwell, Marcos, Peter the Great, Duterte, Erdogan etc etc etc etc.

Some make it to retirement or natural death. Many don't. (Only one Roman Emperor manged to retire - the rest were bumped off. The Roman emperor  Aurelius Valerius Diocletianus abdicated on May 1st, 305. He was sixty years old or so, had been Roman emperor for twenty years and had had enough. He decided to retire and grow vegetables in his home town of Split, on the Dalmatian coast of the Adriatic in Croatia.)


According to Khrushchev's son, the thing his father was most proud of was that the Soviet Union had finally learned that leaders could be removed without resorting to violence. This wasn't too long after Kennedy's trip to Dallas.
No link - private conversation.
Terry

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3766 on: April 14, 2018, 10:36:06 PM »
Re: skirpal as steele source

http://www.newsweek.com/russia-poison-spy-steele-dossier-836768

sidd

Thanks, sidd, I knew there were articles based on 'sources' that say Skripal was connected to Steele, but this one doesn't say (outright) what I'm suggesting: Putin had Skripal killed because of that connection with the Steele dossier.

I don't find it wholly convincing, but a lot more convincing than the suggestion that Don Putin ordered a signature assassination, because that's what mobsters do. I know Putin and his merry band of oligarchs aren't exactly angels, but things have been exaggerated in the anti-Russia narrative to the point that it enables this kind of circular reasoning.

If Putin is a mobster, then so are most of America's top politicians. I think they're all just corrupt crooks. The difference between US crooks and Putin, is that the former would fail miserably at running a state like Russia.

So, in my opinion, if Russia is behind the Skripal poisoning, it was to shut him up. Intelligence officials and former spies are fully aware of what the FSB/GRU is capable of. They don't need to be reminded. Skripal was poisoned for something he was doing, not for who he was.

BTW, I'm amazed at how little investigative work is been done by British journalists in regard to the Skripal case. Are they under direct control of the Ministry of Defense? I saw a live press conference with the Russian ambassador to the UK the other day, and the questions asked by journalists (most of them highly suggestive, twisting the ambassador's words) were absolutely cringeworthy, if not outright dumb.
The enemy is within
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Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3767 on: April 14, 2018, 10:38:05 PM »
Should I apologize for bringing you the story before the NYT? Isn't that what the internet is all about?
No. And I won't apologize for calling you a troll parrot, as this hints at your getting your news from RT and Sputnik, who reported it first (it seems: 1h ago, here in Germany, my semi-bilingual google gave only these 2 sources.)

The Internet is meanwhile also about information warfare, about inciting killer mobs, about giving a platform to any crazy shit -- and about checking those out.

gerontocrat

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3768 on: April 14, 2018, 10:38:47 PM »
Krushchev, Kennedy, McMillan.

In those days Heads of State went to the UN and argued face to face instead of by tweet.
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"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
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Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3769 on: April 14, 2018, 10:45:13 PM »
I don't find it wholly convincing, but a lot more convincing than the suggestion that Don Putin ordered a signature assassination, because that's what mobsters do. I know Putin and his merry band of oligarchs aren't exactly angels, but things have been exaggerated in the anti-Russia narrative to the point that it enables this kind of circular reasoning.
What about the poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko?

Quote
If Putin is a mobster, then so are most of America's top politicians.
Wow. I knew you are susceptible to false equivalency and binary logic. But this is mind-boggling.

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3770 on: April 14, 2018, 11:03:41 PM »

What about the poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko?

Terry

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3771 on: April 14, 2018, 11:29:41 PM »
Wow. I knew you are susceptible to false equivalency and binary logic. But this is mind-boggling.

What can I say? Great minds don't always think alike.  ;)
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3772 on: April 14, 2018, 11:46:35 PM »
Still, the fact that Russia almost certainly murdered some of the sources for his reporting in the immediate wake of the dossier’s publication further attests to their credibility.

I'll read past the 'fact almost certainly'  ::) and assert that maybe this is why Russia wanted Skripal dead, because he was one of Steele's sources. Now that would make a lot more sense to me than the arguments I have read so far for Russia being behind the Skripal poisoning (a 'warning', etc), but strangely enough, haven't read it anywhere so far.

To bring you more up-to-speed (in addition to sidd's linked Newsweek article about Skripal's poisoning):

Title: "Christopher Steele's Other Report: A Murder In Washington"

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jasonleopold/christopher-steele-mikhail-lesin-murder-putin-fbi?utm_term=.lcbYxxlVWa#.ptMEbbARKY

Extract: "The author of the famous Trump dossier provided a secret report to the FBI asserting that RT founder Mikhail Lesin was bludgeoned to death by thugs hired by an oligarch close to Putin. Three other sources independently told the FBI the same basic story, contradicting the government’s finding that Lesin’s death was accidental."

&

Title: "Was This Russian General Murdered Over the Steele Dossier?"

https://www.thedailybeast.com/was-this-russian-general-murdered-over-the-steele-dossier

Extract: "During his recently released August 2017 testimony to the Senate Judiciary Committee, Glenn Simpson was asked about sources for the sensational dossier, which Simpson’s firm, Fusion GPS, commissioned. Responding for him, Simpson’s lawyer, Joshua Levy, blurted out a surprising warning: “Somebody’s already been killed as a result of the publication of this dossier.”

In his subsequent November testimony to the House Intelligence Committee, which was made available last Thursday, Simpson denied knowing specific cases of people being killed because of the dossier, but he then noted cryptically that “people literally risked their lives to tell us some of this stuff.”

In fact, there is evidence that at least one Russian was murdered because of Steele’s revelations: Gen. Oleg Erovinkin of Russia’s State Security Service (FSB). On the morning of Dec. 26, 2016, Erovinkin, age 61, was found dead in his car in central Moscow. Life News, known to be a Kremlin mouthpiece, first claimed on its website that Erovinkin had been “killed,” but then quickly changed its story, saying simply that Erovinkin had “died.” FSB investigators were called immediately to the death scene, and news outlets soon reported that Erovinkin had succumbed to a heart attack. There was no more official Russian mention of him."

&

Title: "Brazile: DNC staffers got death threats after email hack"

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/321166-brazile-dnc-staffers-recieved-death-threats-after-email-hack

Extract: "Interim Democratic National Committee (DNC) chair Donna Brazile says DNC staffers' lives "were threatened" following Russia's hacking campaign last year."
« Last Edit: April 14, 2018, 11:53:12 PM by AbruptSLR »
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3773 on: April 15, 2018, 12:04:24 AM »
When Trump tweeted "Mission Accomplished!”, not only did he link himself to George W. Bush's actions leading up to Operation Enduring Freedom; but he also signaled the media that there is no need for them to pull their punches w.r.t. Russiagate, as Trump is no longer a 'Wartime' president.
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3774 on: April 15, 2018, 12:22:04 AM »
And his name was Seth Rich.




Apparently every signatory of the OPCW receives their reports in full. If the Russians are lying it won't take much - or long to prove it. Israel is about the only country that won't be getting one.


Most liars do so in such a way as to not be exposed as frauds in very short order. That Lavrov would expose himself to ridicule this way isn't an impossibility - remember Baghdad Bob - but it would be way out of character for Lavrov.


The broad dissemination of the report curtails the possibility of altering or misquoting it.


If the Brits are caught with their hand in the cookie jar what happens next? Last I heard only 1 in 5 Brits believed May and Boris's account of the event. An election in the near future might be the end of their (political) futures.


Why doesn't some reporter ask one of the Shripals, or the brave Sargent, if they thought they'd been stoned - the opinion of the gal that first saw them - or if they'd lost bladder and bowel control?


Where is the British Press? Who is keeping such a tight lid on the story. How are they keeping such a tight lid on it, and Why are they suppressing the press?
Terry

johnm33

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3775 on: April 15, 2018, 12:57:21 AM »
"BTW, I'm amazed at how little investigative work is been done by British journalists in regard to the Skripal case. Are they under direct control of the Ministry of Defense? I saw a live press conference with the Russian ambassador to the UK the other day, and the questions asked by journalists (most of them highly suggestive, twisting the ambassador's words) were absolutely cringeworthy, if not outright dumb."
A schedule D notice would shut down the story, that'd explain the lack of doorstepping and questions, it also means most senior journalists know the truth.

Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3776 on: April 15, 2018, 01:38:12 AM »
Trying the converse strategy, overfeeding the troll/parrot until the bystanders get fed up :)

And his name was Seth Rich.
There you go again. The last ones who still are interested in this old bullshit is crazy American uncles, Sputnik News and Seth Rich's family.

Maybe you were just joking? Or your memory is seriously deteriorating?

Quote
If the Russians are lying it won't take much - or long to prove it.
They don't care, just like Uncle Trump. There are enough poor souls who will desperately believe any Russian (and U.S. wingnut) bullshit - and repeat it ad nauseam even after the debunking (esp. then).

Examples can be found on this very forum.

Quote
Most liars do so in such a way as to not be exposed as frauds in very short order. That Lavrov would expose himself to ridicule this way isn't an impossibility - remember Baghdad Bob
- or Lavrov on MH17

Quote
Where is the British Press? Who is keeping such a tight lid on the story. How are they keeping such a tight lid on it, and Why are they suppressing the press?
Your story, Palmström. Maybe write an Op-Ed for Breitbart detailing your wishful zjinking?

--------------
P.S.: On lying/bullshitting: Quite obviously the U.S. right (since decades, now infecting U.S. alt-left) and Putin's mafia are trying hard to eradicate any sense and appreciation for truth and facts. Gut feelings are so much better to stomach. Give opium to the people! (Or what Marx said.)
« Last Edit: April 15, 2018, 04:37:35 AM by Martin Gisser »

SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3777 on: April 15, 2018, 03:24:46 AM »
Submitted without endorsement.

Wrestling with incessant questions of what is accurate news and what is "fake news," a new-ish effort and resource may be useful.  I stumbled upon this story at AlJazeera.com, an under-utilized source itself:   https://www.wikitribune.com/

Jimmy Wales: Fake news, WikiTribune and the future of journalism
https://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/talktojazeera/2018/04/jimmy-wales-fake-news-wikitribune-future-journalism-180413132106568.html

"Jimmy Wales is one of the masterminds behind Wikipedia, an online encyclopedia that describes itself as "a multilingual, web-based, free content encyclopedia project".

Since launching in 2001, Wikipedia has become an internet colossus, reaching around 1.4 billion users accessing some 46 million articles in 300 languages each month.

In 2017, Wales turned his attention to a new project, "WikiTribune", a news website, which was set up to promote what it calls "evidence-based journalism" in an attempt to combat fake news.

"I had been thinking about the idea for quite a long time ... but what really provoked me was the sense during the last US election, all the talk about fake news, about [a] "post-truth" world and all those kinds of things," Wales says.

Wales initially planned to wait until President Donald Trump's first 100 days in office had passed but decided to put his plan into action earlier, after presidential aide Kellyanne Conway made reference to "alternative facts" regarding the number of people in attendance at Trump's inauguration.

"I was just like 'You know what? The 100 days is up'. This is not acceptable behaviour, facts do matter ... it wasn't just that, but that was the last straw. That was the thing that made me say "I'm going to do this now".

WikiTribune combines the work of journalists with volunteers, who contribute by proofreading, fact-checking and adding sources to the journalists' articles.

We can't be silly and ignore potential problems ... but the existence of dark places on the internet doesn't disprove the existence of places of great light and joy.

Jimmy Wales, WikiTribune founder

"The idea is to say let's replicate and let's build a healthy, strong community, much like the community that creates Wikipedia. It's not wide open to everyone, we want people who are thoughtful and kind, interested in contributing in a positive way and I want that community to work side by side with the paid, professional journalists as equals."

While Wales acknowledges that journalists have specialist knowledge and skills in areas such as interviewing and gaining access to sources, he feels that a wider community can contribute to news in a meaningful way.

He points to "slow" news stories, which unfold over a long period of time, and local news as areas where the community model might work well.

But the venture has also had its critics, from those who say the platform undermines professional journalists by having volunteers fill the roles of copy editors for free, to those that question whether Wales' optimism about the wisdom of crowds is naive.

"Maybe it is a bit naive," he concedes, "But I hope not insanely so, Wikipedia has proven, largely, that there are a lot of nice people out there and they just want to help out and do something useful.

"We can't be silly and ignore potential problems ... but the existence of dark places on the internet doesn't disprove the existence of places of great light and joy."

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3778 on: April 15, 2018, 06:24:58 AM »
Steve
Do you remember a few years back when someone set up a site that extracted the internet address of Wikipedia contributors, they then combined it with another program that traced the computer back to the physical address of the writer.
Turned out that the CIA was altering all kinds of articles to try to swing the stories one way or another.
I traced a few back to Ottawa, then a few more back to the home address of my own MP.


Was an enjoyable way to spend an evening, and allowed me to embarrass my MP at his next Town Hall. The problem was that the knowledge was disseminated and Wikipedia put an end to it.


It wasn't a bad weapon for keeping them honest, or to at least discover who the prevaricators were working for.
Terry


 

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3779 on: April 15, 2018, 10:28:11 AM »
To bring you more up-to-speed (in addition to sidd's linked Newsweek article about Skripal's poisoning):

Title: "Christopher Steele's Other Report: A Murder In Washington"

Thanks, ASLR. The fact that almost certainly perhaps  ;) people may have been murdered because of their involvement with the Steele dossier, only reinforces my argument that Skripal may have been poisoned for the same reason. There is so much speculating and conspiracy thinking going on when it comes to Putin/Russia that I'm surprised that no one has outrightly made the argument that Skripal might have been poisoned because of his involvement in the Steele dossier. It shouldn't be hard to find 'sources' that can confirm.
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3780 on: April 15, 2018, 02:40:47 PM »
Neven
My speculations about the "coincidence" of having Mr Skripal, Mr Miller, Mr Steele, and Orbis in such an out of the way English town were intended to draw inferences that Skripal, Miller and Steele had renewed their old acquaintanceship after Mr. Skripal's enforced vacation.


Speculations as to how Mr. Skripal could afford to pay cash for his home and drive such a nice car might end with his employment at Orbis. There certainly aren't many job openings for 58 year old spies who sold out their country and are recently released from prison. Orbis of course is run by Mr. Steele, and Pablo Miller is a contributor.


Miller had apparently "turned" Skripal, while Steele was his handler in Moscow.
What an odd coincidence that they'd all retire to this particular beautiful, old town.


If they were all involved in Steele's "dossier" what would that do to the poisoning case?


Was Skripal about to turn again? 
There is word that Yulia had just come into a large sum and might have been in town to lure him home to Moscow.


Was Skripal about to blow up the Steele dossier?
Perhaps Yulia was the person still in Moscow that Steele referenced. If she and her father told the world that they made up the whole thing would any parties be interested in shutting them up?


Was Skripal about to verify the Steele dossier?
Who would be impacted and would they be interested in shutting Skripal up?


There are still so many questions that need to be asked and answered.


Did Yulia and dad really turn off their GPS's for 4 hrs. - if so why, where did they go? Who did they see?
Why was Yulia visiting, and were they both targeted?
How did Alexander amass his wealth and how did he die?
How did Yulia support herself after and before her brief stint with PepsiCo?
What were the long, out of country trips that Sergei took, according to his ex neighbor.?


Why has the press been shut down? When were the orders issued? Who issued the order?
Why isn't Yulia talking to friends and family, let alone addressing the media?


Was the huge Chemical Weapons enactment a coincidence?
Is the close proximity of Britain's premier Chemical Weapons Lab a factor?
Was recent airing of a TV series featuring Russian Novichuck Poisoning somehow involved?


Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3781 on: April 15, 2018, 04:08:48 PM »
Donnie finds himself in a bit of bind with the reality that we now seem to have TWO investigations which Donnie now needs to shut down:

1)  The Mueller investigation by Special Counsel Mueller...

2)  The Cohen investigation in the Southern District of New York....

Quote
Geoffrey Berman, the U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York, is recused from the Michael Cohen investigation, ABC News has learned.

Berman was not involved in the decision to raid Cohen's office because of the recusal, two sources familiar with the matter tell ABC News.

The recusal was approved by senior Justice Department officials who report to Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein, the sources said. Rosenstein himself was notified of the recusal after the decision was made.

The raid of Cohen's office was handled by others in the office of the U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York and approved by a federal judge.

Berman is a Trump appointee with ties to Rudy Giuliani who donated money to the 2016 Trump campaign, and is a longtime Trump ally and supporter.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/us-attorney-trump-appointee-recused-michael-cohen-investigation/story?id=54365546

Keep in mind that Rosenstein did NOT OK the recusal of Berman ...... that was done by someone BELOW Rosenstein.

So Traitor Donnie now needs to figure out how to get BOTH investigations shut down.  Because either one, on its own, will get Trump impeached.  And both of them together, will likely get him voted out of office in the Senate as well.

And don't forget the RNC ...... because they are battling for their own life in this as well, since they were aware of the conspiracy/collusion by the Trump camp and the Russians/Wikileaks.

So now..... liar Mitt Romney's niece (Ronna Romney)..... who is the head of the RNC ...... is spearheading the political hatchet job on Comey and others, while spending $250,000,000 to try and save the House in 2018 for the Republicans.  Because she knows that if the Democrat's are able to take back the House, that the Committee's in the House will then have a REAL INVESTIGATION into RussiaGate (and the now related CohenGate)..... and a good chunk of it would be TELEVISED.  The last thing that lying POS Ronna Romney wants is for the US citizens to find out the truth.

Things are heating up quickly.......
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

zizek

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3782 on: April 15, 2018, 04:56:39 PM »

I could never understand why Russia would attack an old spy that they had released years ago, let alone why they would have used chemicals.

Putin's Kremlin is a Mafia-like, kleptocratic regime.
Why does the Mafia assassinate informants?  Often in an identifiable way as a Mafia "hit."  Sometimes including family members.

Why?  Not revenge; it's part of the business model.  If secrecy is essential and would-be informants can be tempted with money and refuge, then would-be informants must be motivated by fear to stay in line.

As I've pointed out, Russian intelligence services have recently been leaking like a sieve.  Time to re-motivate with more fear of repercussions.  Death by exotic toxin (or even mysterious undetermined deaths) telegraphs to would-be informants that traitors can never be safe, anywhere, at any time.

As long as the actual assassin gets away, the official denials can blunt any repercussions to national interests.  This is what we're seeing.  A temporary mutual exclusion of some diplomats is a small price to pay for security.

If Western intelligence services had an epidemic of agents committing treason and finding sanctuary in Moscow, I have little doubt that we'd hear of mysterious deaths among them.

This is all consistent with the business model of both sides.
Sorry steve, this argument does do you no favors..  The west, more specifically the United States, has carried out far more extrajudicial assassinations than any other country in the world.  No other state has assassinated more people in more than countries than the USA.  What's to say Skripal didn't have dirt on UK, Trump et al.? you know.... the whole double agent thing ::)

https://www.thenation.com/article/how-the-us-military-came-to-embrace-extrajudicial-killings/

Hell, if russia did it, we should be thanking them for their prudent approach. At least they didn't 'accidentally' level a wedding while doing it.

Quote
According to statistical analyses provided by Reprieve, 9 children have been killed for every targeted adult the United States has tried to assassinate



If Western intelligence services had an epidemic of agents committing treason and finding sanctuary in Moscow, I have little doubt that we'd hear of mysterious deaths among them.


You make a good point. The West is far less sloppy at murder. And like they would have given up the opportunity for a little torture:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_site

SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3783 on: April 15, 2018, 05:08:24 PM »
Sorry steve, this argument does do you no favors..  The west, more specifically the United States, has carried out far more extrajudicial assassinations than any other country in the world. 

No argument about the global track record of the US.  Much of it is profoundly shameful.
I was only trying to explain why attributing the Skripal poisoning to Russia, rather than a false-flag, is the most reasonable interpretation of information. 

I wasn't suggesting this to defend "my side" against superficially plausible accusations.
...

If Western intelligence services had an epidemic of agents committing treason and finding sanctuary in Moscow, I have little doubt that we'd hear of mysterious deaths among them.

Quote
You make a good point. The West is far less sloppy at murder. And like they would have given up the opportunity for a little torture:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_site

Cheney belongs in front of a war crimes tribunal.  He should share a bunk with Assad.

SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3784 on: April 15, 2018, 05:22:24 PM »
The BBC has reported:
"No 10 has released a letter from National Security Advisor Mark Sedwill to NATO Secretary-General. It spells out more details of intelligence pointing to Russia in the Salisbury case. Includes suggestion that Russia was specifically looking at putting nerve agents on door handles"

And attached an image of part of this letter.  Re-attached here.

Salisbury poisoning: Russia 'targeted' Yulia Skripal email
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43755789

zizek

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3785 on: April 15, 2018, 05:35:46 PM »
Sorry steve, this argument does do you no favors..  The west, more specifically the United States, has carried out far more extrajudicial assassinations than any other country in the world. 

No argument about the global track record of the US.  Much of it is profoundly shameful.
I was only trying to explain why attributing the Skripal poisoning to Russia, rather than a false-flag, is the most reasonable interpretation of information. 

I wasn't suggesting this to defend "my side" against superficially plausible accusations.
...

If Western intelligence services had an epidemic of agents committing treason and finding sanctuary in Moscow, I have little doubt that we'd hear of mysterious deaths among them.

Quote
You make a good point. The West is far less sloppy at murder. And like they would have given up the opportunity for a little torture:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_site

Cheney belongs in front of a war crimes tribunal.  He should share a bunk with Assad.


Putin is a piece of shit, and the Russian oligarchy state apparatus needs to be smothered and burned.  This is not a controversial opinion here on the forum. Please don't assume that our criticism of anti-russian propaganda is an endorsement for these monsters. We are not trolls.

It just would be nice that in the 21st century murder would need actual evidence to prove. A little more than:
"they made the murder weapon 3 decades ago. and they are bad people that are only capable of doing bad things. nobody else does bad things except the Russians."

Every single state involved with this murder, Russia UK and America, have proven time and time again that they are more than capable of assassinating. And, like I mentioned, America more than anyone else. 

I understand that it seems like a reasonable interpretation to blame Russia. But it's feeding into a very obvious anti-Russian narrative that's been building up over the past five years.  And when I see violent imperialist nations like UK & America aggressively pursuing jingoism, I get very concerned.

zizek

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3786 on: April 15, 2018, 05:52:20 PM »
The BBC has reported:
"No 10 has released a letter from National Security Advisor Mark Sedwill to NATO Secretary-General. It spells out more details of intelligence pointing to Russia in the Salisbury case. Includes suggestion that Russia was specifically looking at putting nerve agents on door handles"

And attached an image of part of this letter.  Re-attached here.

Salisbury poisoning: Russia 'targeted' Yulia Skripal email
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43755789

In a underground bunker hidden deep in the siberian wilderness. Russia recruits the nations top scientists and brings them to a secret training & research facility called POINT X.  The buzzing of halogen lights and constant threat of bear invasion slowly turns the agents into mad men. And only these sickened men are capable of conjuring such a horrible ways to kill their enemy:

Putting nerve agents on commonly touched objects



AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3787 on: April 15, 2018, 06:09:22 PM »
Working on the assumption that Russiagate won't be fully resolved until after the 2018 midterm elections; the linked article indicates that the resistance is getting the upper hand and a blue tsunami may be coming:

Title: "What cable news viewship reveals about the 2018 midterm elections"

https://www.salon.com/2018/04/11/what-cable-news-viewership-reveals-about-the-2018-midterm-elections/

Extract: "MSNBC's numbers are on the rise, and strategists see a direct correlation between viewership and voter sentiment"

Edit, also the fact that women look like a stronger driving force in the midterms is also good news for the resistance:

Title: "Women take charge in the midterm election runup"
 
https://www.salon.com/2018/04/07/women-take-charge-in-the-mid-term-election-runup_partner/

Extract: "Women are becoming political powerbrokers. They are setting new trends for candidacies, donations and activism. To date, 23% of all federal candidates for the mid-term elections are women, according to the Center for Responsive Politics. That is a new record, eclipsing 2016’s high by 7 percent. A partisan breakdown shows 30% of candidates are Democrats while 13% are Republicans.

As donors, women now account for 31% of all donations — another new record. The growth in donations appears driven by women’s support of Democratic candidates, and particularly, female candidates. Women accounted for 44% of the contributions to female candidates and for 34% of the donations to men, which both reflect historic high points. Female contributions to Republican candidates remain flat, according to data from the Center for Responsive Politics."
« Last Edit: April 15, 2018, 06:14:24 PM by AbruptSLR »
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zizek

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3788 on: April 15, 2018, 06:10:01 PM »
I can already see the coen brothers taking notes for their next film. Everything sorrounding this event is hollywood gold


  • UK-Russia double agent
  • unsuccessful assassination attempt
  • door knob and pub
  • weird money
  • UK frantically trying to use anything to blame russia. hilarious & bizarre media (Boris)
  • Russia's grandiose defense. Can't keep story straight in comical Russian fashion
  • dead hamster
  • cute daughter

zizek

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3789 on: April 15, 2018, 06:22:46 PM »
Working on the assumption that Russiagate won't be fully resolved until after the 2018 midterm elections; the linked article indicates that the resistance is getting the upper hand and a blue tsunami may be coming:

Title: "What cable news viewship reveals about the 2018 midterm elections"

https://www.salon.com/2018/04/11/what-cable-news-viewership-reveals-about-the-2018-midterm-elections/

Extract: "MSNBC's numbers are on the rise, and strategists see a direct correlation between viewership and voter sentiment"

It'll be interesting what happens post-russiagate. Will the democratic move away from using anti-russian or anti-whomever sentiment to discredit republicans? It seems like the democrats could develop their own brand of nationalism to challenge the more unsavory racially charged nationalism typically associated with republicans.
Both parties are so deeply entrenched in money politics that they can no longer offer anything decent to their increasingly poorer and poorer constituents.  The republicans are already ahead of the game of getting support through fascism-lite.  If the democrats can develop nationalism that doesn't severely conflict with their 'liberal' values, I don't see why the wouldn't pursue that garbage.

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3790 on: April 15, 2018, 06:36:47 PM »
Ready or not, the blue wave is coming:

Title: "Democrats’ Chances Of Winning The Senate Are Looking Stronger"

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/democrats-chances-of-winning-the-senate-are-looking-stronger/

Extract: "For some time, the conventional wisdom (and I largely agree with it) around the upcoming midterms has been that Democrats are modest favorites to win the House, while Republicans are likely to hold the Senate. Democrats, who have 49 Senate seats at the moment,1 might win GOP-held seats in Arizona and Nevada, but it seems likely they’ll lose at least one of the 10 seats they hold in states that President Trump carried in 2016.

But the 2018 Senate map is shifting — mostly in ways that make it more likely that Democrats could flip that chamber too. If you’ve only been paying attention to the House, it’s time to check back in on the upper chamber."

Edit: Then we will see the endgame in Russiagate.
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3791 on: April 15, 2018, 06:47:10 PM »
Putting nerve agents on commonly touched objects

A little weird indeed. The only thing I find weird here.

I haven't yet found out which door handle: The outside or the inside one?

Smearing the nerve agent to the outside handle poses a high risk of "collateral damage". But then, it was a Sunday. No mailman coming to the door.

That risk would be zero if it were the inside handle. Maybe that's why the Russians were training this kind of assassination. Precisely targeted. But then there's the risk of the assassin getting caught breaking into the house.

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3792 on: April 15, 2018, 06:51:08 PM »
There has certainly been more than enough time for someone to challenge Lavrov's claims that the Swiss Lab identified BZ in the Skripals poison? BZ is closely linked to the US and Nato even by Wiki.


If no one even claims that he's wrong don't we have some sort of obligation to assume he was telling the truth? If he was telling the truth, and the Swiss are correct when they note how pure the substance was, doesn't this implicate state actors from the Nato Nations?


If a Nato Nation is involved, doesn't this throw suspicion on the UK, US, and French missile strikes on Syria?


Mathis admitted that there is no evidence of Assad ever having used chemical weapons. The terrorists who had held the contested region have admitted to using chemical weapons in the past.


Do we really find it so difficult to believe that Trump did something that is not only very illegal, but is also very, very stupid?
Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3793 on: April 15, 2018, 06:54:35 PM »
'You counldn't make this up if you wanted to.':

Title: "Stormy Daniels' Lawyer Michael Avenatti Drops a Bomb on CNN: Cohen's Cigar Buddies Have 'Russian Ties'

https://www.alternet.org/stormy-daniels-lawyer-michael-avenatti-drops-bomb-cnn-cohens-cigar-buddies-have-russian-ties

Extract: "I mean, I saw a picture of one of the people he was sitting with, and he has ties to one particular Russian wealthy individual."
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― Leon C. Megginson

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3794 on: April 15, 2018, 07:02:48 PM »
The truth has a strange way of coming back and biting Trump on the ass:

Title: "The FBI's revenge"

https://www.axios.com/fbi-trump-cohen-comey-revenge-investigation-b510fca0-d023-4755-9169-5d336aeeef8a.html

Extract: "Back in December, President Trump tweeted: "After years of Comey, with the phony and dishonest Clinton investigation (and more), running the FBI, its reputation is in Tatters - worst in History! But fear not, we will bring it back to greatness."

The state of play: Now, the FBI is getting its revenge. All at once, Trump is being pounded by the bureau and its alumni, with a three-pronged threat."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3795 on: April 15, 2018, 07:11:33 PM »
There has certainly been more than enough time for someone to challenge Lavrov's claims that the Swiss Lab identified BZ in the Skripals poison? BZ is closely linked to the US and Nato even by Wiki.
1) Come on, it is still weekend. I bet the Swiss don't care until Monday. (They are the only ones who can refute Lavrov. And who trusts Lavrov's word anyhow?)

2) The Chemical Weapons Convention allows every nation to produce small samples in order to test their defenses. (Source: German-Swiss NZZ article linked above.)  BZ is standard stuff. Sure the Russians have tested it. -- Of course this cuts both ways: The West also has some Novichok. (But Novichoks are a very special case in this business. Careful when jumping to conclusions - like in the early phase of this debate here with A-Team))

SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3796 on: April 15, 2018, 07:32:53 PM »


I haven't yet found out which door handle: The outside or the inside one?

Smearing the nerve agent to the outside handle poses a high risk of "collateral damage". But then, it was a Sunday. No mailman coming to the door.

That risk would be zero if it were the inside handle. Maybe that's why the Russians were training this kind of assassination. Precisely targeted. But then there's the risk of the assassin getting caught breaking into the house.

Reporting has indicated the agent was on the exterior door handle.  I think this location is *more* targeted than the interior door handle.  Anyone leaving my home might grab the interior handle on the way out.  But only someone using a key to the house would grab the exterior handle.  Everyone else knocks and waits for the door to be opened.  Except a burgler.  The assassin was probably willing to take the risk of a burglar getting offed.

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3797 on: April 15, 2018, 07:41:05 PM »
Was Skripal about to turn again? 
There is word that Yulia had just come into a large sum and might have been in town to lure him home to Moscow.

Was Skripal about to blow up the Steele dossier?
Perhaps Yulia was the person still in Moscow that Steele referenced. If she and her father told the world that they made up the whole thing would any parties be interested in shutting them up?

Was Skripal about to verify the Steele dossier?
Who would be impacted and would they be interested in shutting Skripal up?

There are still so many questions that need to be asked and answered.

Did Yulia and dad really turn off their GPS's for 4 hrs. - if so why, where did they go? Who did they see?
Why was Yulia visiting, and were they both targeted?
How did Alexander amass his wealth and how did he die?
How did Yulia support herself after and before her brief stint with PepsiCo?
What were the long, out of country trips that Sergei took, according to his ex neighbor.?

Why has the press been shut down? When were the orders issued? Who issued the order?
Why isn't Yulia talking to friends and family, let alone addressing the media?

Was the huge Chemical Weapons enactment a coincidence?
Is the close proximity of Britain's premier Chemical Weapons Lab a factor?
Was recent airing of a TV series featuring Russian Novichuck Poisoning somehow involved?

Terry

These are all relevant, legitimate questions, Terry. Thanks for asking.

If there is any way I can help you infiltrate some British news medium, I'll be happy to help.
The enemy is within
Don't confuse me with him

E. Smith

wili

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3798 on: April 15, 2018, 07:44:41 PM »
Pentagon announces 2,000% increase in Russia trolls since Friday

(I don't see any recent increase in trolls around here...I guess Putin figures the trolls he's already got working on this forum are doing a good enough job as it is  ;D ;D ;D ;D)

Quote
Pentagon spokeswoman Dana White said in Saturday's Pentagon briefing that there has been a "2,000% increase in Russian trolls in the last 24 hours," following the coordinated strike against Syria on Friday night.

The bottom line: The problem of Russian actors generating division and conflict among Americans isn't going away. As Axios' Sara Fischer and David McCabe reported last year, they aim to sow confusion and capitalize on political divisions. Senator Ben Sasse said in a statement on Saturday that this illustrates what "the wars of the future will look like...The fog of war will not be limited to our situation rooms and battlefields."

Sooo, while we're trying to engage in a war of the past, they're striking back on the battlefield of the future!?

https://www.axios.com/russian-bots-increase-2195bf68-567c-4466-a705-17e69d4b6cad.html
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3799 on: April 15, 2018, 07:46:44 PM »
Ready or not, the blue wave is coming:

Title: "Democrats’ Chances Of Winning The Senate Are Looking Stronger"

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/democrats-chances-of-winning-the-senate-are-looking-stronger/

Extract: "For some time, the conventional wisdom (and I largely agree with it) around the upcoming midterms has been that Democrats are modest favorites to win the House, while Republicans are likely to hold the Senate. Democrats, who have 49 Senate seats at the moment,1 might win GOP-held seats in Arizona and Nevada, but it seems likely they’ll lose at least one of the 10 seats they hold in states that President Trump carried in 2016.

But the 2018 Senate map is shifting — mostly in ways that make it more likely that Democrats could flip that chamber too. If you’ve only been paying attention to the House, it’s time to check back in on the upper chamber."

Edit: Then we will see the endgame in Russiagate.
Meanwhile the same source shows the Democratic lead over Republicans to have narrowed in the past week from 8.6  to 6.9 among those likely to vote.
With the gerrymandering already in place this could translate into no new seats for the Dems. Possibly even a loss!!


You're running out of time. You need a spokesman to rally around. Someone who can speak to the "deplorables", someone to drag them in from their fields, their jobs, or away from the 9 Ball Tournament on election day.


Midterms are won by partizan fanatics. What are you promising your fanatics?
Promising to be better than "them" hasn't been working lately. Free health care, free education, spending a "peace dividend at home" can't even be brought to the table. Your sponsors have seen to that.
You've lost in excess of 1,000 seats in the last decade. Doing it Hillary's way, or Pelosi's way, hasn't worked in the past. Do you believe that doing more of it will work this time, or are you simply hoping that Trump blows himself up and takes the Republicans with him?
Not doing a thing may bring you victory. But it does take away any dreams of leadership you may have once cherished.
"I won because he was so bad that a dead guy could have won the seat", won't inspire many followers.
"Vote for me or you'll get my opponent", simply isn't a call that will resonate through the ages.


Terry
edit:
This obviously belongs in a different thread. I'd followed a lead and responded here. I'll do better in the future.
Salisbury, Syria, Who swiped the DNC files and why, are all fair game. The coming election belongs somewhere else.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2018, 07:53:41 PM by TerryM »