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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3800 on: April 15, 2018, 08:24:55 PM »
Quote
(I don't see any recent increase in trolls around here...I guess Putin figures the trolls he's already got working on this forum are doing a good enough job as it is  ;D ;D ;D ;D)

They are indeed...... :)
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sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3801 on: April 15, 2018, 08:53:04 PM »
Lavrov:

--
I will now be quoting what they sent to the OPCW in their report. You understand that this is a translation from a foreign language but I will read it in Russian, quote: “Following our analysis, the samples indicate traces of the toxic chemical BZ and its precursor which are second category chemical weapons. BZ is a nerve toxic agent, which temporarily disables a person. The psycho toxic effect is achieved within 30 to 60 minutes after its use and lasts for up to four days. This composition was in operational service in the armies of the US, the UK and other NATO countries. The Soviet Union and Russia neither designed nor stored such chemical agents. Also, the samples indicate the presence of type A-234 nerve agent in its virgin state and also products of its degradation.” End of quote. According to the specialists’ estimates, the significant concentration of A-234 discovered would have inevitably been lethal, and taking into account its high volatility, the fact that the specialists in the city of Spiez found it in its virgin state and also with high purity and in high concentration, appears to be utterly suspicious, because the period which elapsed between the poisoning and sampling was fairly long – I think, over two weeks.
--

Full Lavrov statement:

http://www.mid.ru/en/foreign_policy/news/-/asset_publisher/cKNonkJE02Bw/content/id/3169545

sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3802 on: April 15, 2018, 08:53:51 PM »
Spiez Lab tweet, 14 april:

"Only OPCW can comment this assertion. But we can repeat what we stated 10 days ago: We have no doubt that Porton Down has identified Novichock. PD - like Spiez - is a designated lab of the OPCW. The standards in verification are so rigid that one can trust the findings"

https://mobile.twitter.com/SpiezLab/status/985243574123057152

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3803 on: April 15, 2018, 08:55:03 PM »

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3804 on: April 15, 2018, 08:56:32 PM »
Quote
(I don't see any recent increase in trolls around here...I guess Putin figures the trolls he's already got working on this forum are doing a good enough job as it is  ;D ;D ;D ;D )

They are indeed...... :)
Actually I have it on good authority that Putin's troll increase has only been one of 1,854% during the last 24 hours. The good Ms. White obviously made an error in simple arithmetic. We've come to expect the pentagram/pentagon to make arithmetic errors, but these are usually confined to budgetary requests. 8)


Let's see if I get this right:
 If I read something on the internet that assures me that the government is doing a good job and that I can go back to sleep - that's news.
 If I read something on the internet that makes me question the government's actions, that's false news, almost certainly spread by Putin's bots and trolls.


Just where do the parrots fit into this scheme?
Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3805 on: April 15, 2018, 09:04:30 PM »
Some UK scepticism, except from Hamish, who likes any war he can get.

https://special-ops.org/news/special-forces/former-head-britains-special-forces-says-assad-doesnt-need-use-gas-hes-already-won-war/

sidd

Here is Sky News cutting him off when he starts questioning Assad's attack  ;D


I think he became infected and is one of those 2000% increase in russian trolls the pentagon was talking. such a tragedy. such a shame. someone should really bomb that troll farm before things get more out of hand.

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3806 on: April 15, 2018, 09:07:40 PM »
Here is Sky News cutting him off when he starts questioning Assad's attack  ;D

Wow, that's hilarious.  :o :D
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3807 on: April 15, 2018, 09:21:15 PM »
sidd
I think it should be evident by now that Mr. Lavrov's translation is accurate, were it not the West would have exposed it soon after it was posted.


The virgin, high concentration of A-234, a highly volatile substance leads to questions of how it came to be included in the provided sample after an ~ 2 week period between the event and the sampling.


In English this might be paraphrased as:
"Somebody spiked the sample because this amount of A-234 would kill a horse, and any number of jockeys that tried to ride him."
"It's also very suspicious because this stuff boils off and different parts of it boil off at different temperatures and pressures. Much of this stuff is virgin, as if nothing had boiled away at all."


The original Russian is probably more damning than my poor English translation.
Terry

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3808 on: April 15, 2018, 10:33:21 PM »
Is anyone aware of what the punishment is for giving false evidence to the OPCW?
Does anyone know who adjudicates such questions?


Is this also "illegal but legitimate"?
Terry




Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3809 on: April 15, 2018, 10:36:23 PM »
Before speculating that the Skripals were stunned with the BX BZ stuff and actually never were in any serious danger, I'll await further information. Has there been any reaction as of yet to Lavrov's allegations wrt to the Swiss laboratory in Spiez (great name, given the context, BTW)? I hope it doesn't take too long.
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SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3810 on: April 15, 2018, 11:02:34 PM »
Before speculating that the Skripals were stunned with the BX BZ stuff and actually never were in any serious danger, I'll await further information. Has there been any reaction as of yet to Lavrov's allegations wrt to the Swiss laboratory in Spiez (great name, given the context, BTW)? I hope it doesn't take too long.

Sidd covered this, above.  Lavrov's statement cited "traces of the toxic chemical BZ" as well as the asserted Novichok, in high purity.

BZ is a lower-potency agent.  Novichok is a *very* high-potency agent.  Traces of BZ are clinically irrelevant, and citing such traces is little more than obfuscation in this context.

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3811 on: April 15, 2018, 11:39:44 PM »
Before speculating that the Skripals were stunned with the BX BZ stuff and actually never were in any serious danger, I'll await further information. Has there been any reaction as of yet to Lavrov's allegations wrt to the Swiss laboratory in Spiez (great name, given the context, BTW)? I hope it doesn't take too long.

Sidd covered this, above.  Lavrov's statement cited "traces of the toxic chemical BZ" as well as the asserted Novichok, in high purity.

BZ is a lower-potency agent.  Novichok is a *very* high-potency agent.  Traces of BZ are clinically irrelevant, and citing such traces is little more than obfuscation in this context.


How so? Don't they indicate at the very least that the mixture was formulated in the presence of BZ?
The even more potent accusation is that at least a portion of the A-234 had been added at some time after the event took place. Wasn't the extreme toxicity of the A-234 one of the reasons for the doubt that it had been present originally?


Burying evidence of the presence of the BZ seems much more likely to cloud the waters than exposing the findings of the report as Lavrov has done, this can only further transparency.


Terry


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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3812 on: April 15, 2018, 11:45:27 PM »
Steve, nothing what sidd posted, covers what I said.

As said, I want to await further information and reactions, but pre-speculated that maybe the Skripals were stunned by the BZ and then found on the bench, unconscious. That would explain why both aren't dead and Yulia is said to be in good health.

Of course, it'd be fantastic if someone in the media would also start asking the questions Terry put in a neat list further up the thread.

And finally, last week I dreamt that Sergej Skripal was alive and well, sitting in a room, smoking cigarettes, continuously asking when they were going to finally let him out. I know that's not evidence.  ;)
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3813 on: April 15, 2018, 11:50:33 PM »
Steve, nothing what sidd posted, covers what I said.

As said, I want to await further information and reactions, but pre-speculated that maybe the Skripals were stunned by the BZ and then found on the bench, unconscious. That would explain why both aren't dead and Yulia is said to be in good health.

Of course, it'd be fantastic if someone in the media would also start asking the questions Terry put in a neat list further up the thread.

And finally, last week I dreamt that Sergej Skripal was alive and well, sitting in a room, smoking cigarettes, continuously asking when they were going to finally let him out. I know that's not evidence.  ;)
In your dream was he smoking tobacco, or something he was rolling himself? :D
Terry

magnamentis

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3814 on: April 16, 2018, 12:01:53 AM »
generally i'd say that none of us and probably most of them know the truth which is why, even though this is an interesting topic and good to be discussed, everyone should bring up his opinion being aware of our own ignorance. best in form of questions, debatable thoughts to be considered and discussed open minded.

i have my own opinion which sides more or less with neven's and terry's but then it's only an opinion, not less and not more.

only thing that i think is always wrong is pre-justice and taking action before all the facts are on the table and verified, mostly based on either bias and/or domestic interests to either impress voters or distract from own and homemade problems
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sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3815 on: April 16, 2018, 12:02:51 AM »
A-234 in hi purity should have killed in minutes.

The presence of hi grade A-234 as well as traces of BZ and a precursor is odd. As far as i know the production of A-234 is quite different than BZ indicating they must have been mixed after production.

But why hit the guy with an incapacitating psychotic that takes hours to act, if you are planning to kill him in minutes with nerve agent ? This indicates the BZ contamination was inadvertent.

More, it shows the same production facility that made the A-234 had BZ contamination. But BZ is only known to be manufactured outside Russia.

Curiouser and curiouser, especially the concealment of BZ indicators in the OPCW statement.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3816 on: April 16, 2018, 12:28:31 AM »
A-234 in hi purity should have killed in minutes.

The presence of hi grade A-234 as well as traces of BZ and a precursor is odd. As far as i know the production of A-234 is quite different than BZ indicating they must have been mixed after production.

But why hit the guy with an incapacitating psychotic that takes hours to act, if you are planning to kill him in minutes with nerve agent ? This indicates the BZ contamination was inadvertent.

More, it shows the same production facility that made the A-234 had BZ contamination. But BZ is only known to be manufactured outside Russia.

Curiouser and curiouser, especially the concealment of BZ indicators in the OPCW statement.

sidd
Perhaps the objective was merely to scare the bejesus out of him, with the A-234 added much later to shield May and Boris?
As I understand it the signatories pledge to call in the OPCW when a suspected chemical attack has taken place. Has Britain ever explained why they waited so long?
Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3817 on: April 16, 2018, 12:30:49 AM »
Have fun taking apart Lavrov's balderdash... and spinning more conspiracy stuff to add to the Russians own inventions.

Samples taken 2 weeks later? Hahaaaaahahaha. Case closed.

You are wasting neurons!
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SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3818 on: April 16, 2018, 12:49:25 AM »
A-234 in hi purity should have killed in minutes.

Hmm.  High purity doesn't say anything about the size of the dose.  How many mg of high-purity A-234 were on Skripal's palm? 
How long does it take A-234 to penetrate the relatively thick skin of the palm?

Unless you know these two facts, I don't see how you can conclude how quickly he would have died from the exposure.

Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3819 on: April 16, 2018, 01:13:03 AM »
Spiez lab tweets: "Wait for the meeting of the OPCW Executive Council on 18 April."

-------------------------
Now me self wasted some neurons...

One Twitter commenter has a theory of why BZ could have been there. (IF it was indeed and Lavrov didn't lie.) I'm no biochemist at all, but it looks consistent to me. In my own words, cobbled from wikipedia :)

BZ is an antagonist of muscarinic acetylcholine receptors. Novichok agents inhibit the enzyme acetylcholinesterase, preventing the normal breakdown of the neurotransmitter acetylcholine.

So perhaps BZ was used in treating the Skripals.

Funny coincidence: BZ is a Swiss invention

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3-Quinuclidinyl_benzilate = BZ
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novichok_agent
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SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3820 on: April 16, 2018, 01:32:03 AM »
Spiez lab tweets: "Wait for the meeting of the OPCW Executive Council on 18 April."

-------------------------
Now me self wasted some neurons...

One Twitter commenter has a theory of why BZ could have been there. (IF it was indeed and Lavrov didn't lie.) I'm no biochemist at all, but it looks consistent to me. In my own words, cobbled from wikipedia :)

BZ is an antagonist of muscarinic acetylcholine receptors. Novichok agents inhibit the enzyme acetylcholinesterase, preventing the normal breakdown of the neurotransmitter acetylcholine.

So perhaps BZ was used in treating the Skripals.

Funny coincidence: BZ is a Swiss invention

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3-Quinuclidinyl_benzilate = BZ
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novichok_agent

I can't imagine any clinician using such a regulated substance in treatment of nerve agent poisoning.  Anti-cholinergic alternatives are plentiful.  Like, say, atropine, which is standard in "crash carts."

However, a chemical weapons lab making Novichok might keep some BZ on hand (assuming it is a higher-potency agent than atropine) for immediate treatment of accidental exposures.

Alternatively, a chemical weapons lab might produce both agents.  The BZ might be handled relatively carelessly, being a far less dangerous substance.   Might have been on some of the glassware.  Glassware used to make Novichok would certainly be incinerated after use, but not so after BZ synthesis.

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3821 on: April 16, 2018, 06:41:40 AM »
Regarding that statement by Lavrov of the report from Spiez to OPCW :

Lavrov:

--
I will now be quoting what they sent to the OPCW in their report. You understand that this is a translation from a foreign language but I will read it in Russian, quote: “Following our analysis, the samples indicate traces of the toxic chemical BZ and its precursor which are second category chemical weapons. BZ is a nerve toxic agent, which temporarily disables a person. The psycho toxic effect is achieved within 30 to 60 minutes after its use and lasts for up to four days. This composition was in operational service in the armies of the US, the UK and other NATO countries. The Soviet Union and Russia neither designed nor stored such chemical agents. Also, the samples indicate the presence of type A-234 nerve agent in its virgin state and also products of its degradation.” End of quote.

I don't know about the 'traces' of BZ, but notice the section in bold.
As a scientific lab, investigating a substance, Spiez would NEVER write that in their report to OPCW. They don't know, and they were not asked about it either.

So we know at LEAST about that part of the 'quote' from Spiez' report, Lavrov is lying.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3822 on: April 16, 2018, 08:52:24 AM »
Trying the converse strategy, overfeeding the troll/parrot until the bystanders get fed up :)

A wise man once told me :

1)  Don't get discouraged
2)  Pick your battles wisely
3)  Realize that some people deserve your time ..... and others DON'T
4)  Never stop learning.  Whether you are 25 or 85.

Thanks for your posts, Martin, to uncover the truth through reason and evidence, on this thread where the truth is often obfuscated by dis-information and mis-information and extreme opinions.
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Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3823 on: April 16, 2018, 10:33:58 AM »
BZ is an antagonist of muscarinic acetylcholine receptors. Novichok agents inhibit the enzyme acetylcholinesterase, preventing the normal breakdown of the neurotransmitter acetylcholine.

So perhaps BZ was used in treating the Skripals.

That sounds quite reasonable. Thanks.

As said, I want to await more information/reactions. This Skripal thing is very weird in many ways.
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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3824 on: April 16, 2018, 02:05:15 PM »
Thom Tillis: Both parties need to protect Mueller

BY THOM TILLIS
Sunday, April 15, 2018

Quote
I believe in the rule of law, regardless of who occupies the White House or which party leads the Justice Department. That is why in August I introduced a bill to create a judicial-review process to prevent the removal of a special counsel without good cause.

Over the past several months, Sen. Christopher Coons, D-Del., and I have been working with Sens. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., and Cory Booker, D-N.J., who introduced a similar bill, to reconcile differences between the proposals. This week, we introduced the compromise, the Special Counsel Independence and Integrity Act.

Last May, when the Justice Department named former FBI director Robert Mueller as special counsel, virtually all lawmakers — Republicans and Democrats alike — praised the choice. Mueller has had a distinguished career in law enforcement and public service, and he has a well-earned reputation for impartiality. I have confidence that he will follow the facts, wherever they may lead. I also have confidence that he is leading the investigation without bias.

http://www.rockymounttelegram.com/Columnists/2018/04/15/Both-parties-need-to-protect-Mueller.html

Seems pretty straightforward and obvious to me.  I would encourage the SAME THING if Hillary was doing the same things that Donnie has been doing (and by same things....I don't mean the same "policy things"....she wouldn't be doing that....but if she had done the same "RussiaGate things" like meeting with Russians).  Tillis is a Republican from North Carolina.

The "moderate middle" is always the first to move.  Some of them have already moved...and others will follow.  Remember...it is a PROCESS.  Some of the "crazies" like Louis Ghomert (Texas), Marcia Blackburn (Tennessee), John Cornyn (Texas), Ted Cruz (Texas), Jim Jordan (Ohio), Chris Collins (New York), Mike Conaway (Texas), Pete Sessions (Texas), etc.... they will NEVER move.  That is NOT meant to be a complete list of the "crazies" and does NOT include those who have chosen to leave office and not run this coming November...AND....yes, Texas has a LOT of crazies.

I am still working on a "list" (with links) of those in Congress who have chosen to "lash themselves" to the bow of the USS Trump (like the "crazies" above).  Those folks need to be voted out of office this coming November.
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Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3825 on: April 16, 2018, 03:15:19 PM »
I would encourage the SAME THING if Hillary was doing the same things that Donnie has been doing

No, you wouldn't, because you wouldn't know about them, and if someone like me would then tell you about it, you would call me a Kremlin puppet or some such. Some of the things Hillary has done, have been worse than what Donnie Tiny Hands have done so far.

All of them need to be under investigation, including war criminals like the Bushes and Obama. SAME THING.
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sedziobs

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3826 on: April 16, 2018, 03:46:19 PM »
I would encourage the SAME THING if Hillary was doing the same things that Donnie has been doing

No, you wouldn't, because you wouldn't know about them, and if someone like me would then tell you about it, you would call me a Kremlin puppet or some such. Some of the things Hillary has done, have been worse than what Donnie Tiny Hands have done so far.

All of them need to be under investigation, including war criminals like the Bushes and Obama. SAME THING.

Trump's campaign is under investigation for violation of U.S. law, just as Hillary has been several times (Benghazi, emails).  I'm sure Buddy knows about those.  You are calling past presidents war criminals under international law.  While those are heinous crimes, they are not the same thing as what Buddy is posting about. 

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3827 on: April 16, 2018, 05:42:12 PM »
"Donnie Tiny Hands"
Sorry, Neven, but you've got to come up with a new description of my President.  Apparently, his hands are normal sized.  (Personally, I mostly disappear his whole self in my mind.)
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3828 on: April 16, 2018, 07:39:09 PM »
Regarding that statement by Lavrov of the report from Spiez to OPCW :

Lavrov:

--
I will now be quoting what they sent to the OPCW in their report. You understand that this is a translation from a foreign language but I will read it in Russian, quote: “Following our analysis, the samples indicate traces of the toxic chemical BZ and its precursor which are second category chemical weapons. BZ is a nerve toxic agent, which temporarily disables a person. The psycho toxic effect is achieved within 30 to 60 minutes after its use and lasts for up to four days. This composition was in operational service in the armies of the US, the UK and other NATO countries. The Soviet Union and Russia neither designed nor stored such chemical agents. Also, the samples indicate the presence of type A-234 nerve agent in its virgin state and also products of its degradation.” End of quote.

I don't know about the 'traces' of BZ, but notice the section in bold.
As a scientific lab, investigating a substance, Spiez would NEVER write that in their report to OPCW. They don't know, and they were not asked about it either.

So we know at LEAST about that part of the 'quote' from Spiez' report, Lavrov is lying.

Rob, since you're the protector of truth and facts here, can you please answer these questions:

Why would Spiez NEVER write that in their report?  Spiez are experts in chemical weapons..... Why would the OPCW deny their consultation. wouldn't they want their insight? Do you have a copy of the OPCW request that specifically states that they aren't interested in any of Spiez's expertise outside of purely technical laboratory analysis?
How can you make the claim that Lavrov is lying?

The head of Spiez's laboratory, Stefan Mogl, has discussed in some detail regarding the origin of novichok:
https://www.nzz.ch/international/kein-zweifel-am-nowitschok-resultat-ld.1374775
Did the OPCW specifically asked Mogl to exclude his expertise on origin from the report, and only to discuss it in the press  :o?
You better show me some hard FACTS and TRUTH and EVIDENCE that you care about so dearly rob. Otherwise you're a bigger liar than the Russians.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3829 on: April 16, 2018, 07:46:45 PM »
Here are Seth Abramson's five takeaways from the April 15th Comey interview; indicating that Pro-Trump FBI agents pressured Comey to reopen the Clinton email investigation just before the 2016 election in order to bias the vote in Trump's favor:

"1 McCabe told Comey of the Clinton emails ASAP.
2 Pro-Trump FBI agents sat on the emails for 24 days.
3 Email review would've ended 10/12 if not for these rogue agents.
4 Comey wrote Congress under duress from these agents.
5 The IG knows all of this."

http://abcnews.go.com/Site/transcript-james-comeys-interview-abc-news-chief-anchor/story?id=54488723
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Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3830 on: April 16, 2018, 08:04:50 PM »
Some of the things Hillary has done, have been worse than what Donnie Tiny Hands have done so far.

All of them need to be under investigation, including war criminals like the Bushes and Obama. SAME THING.
Whoa-a-haaaaaaaaaahahahahahaha....

Same same same, everwhere everything is same. Tra la, tra li, tra lu...
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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3831 on: April 16, 2018, 08:30:43 PM »
Quote
1 McCabe told Comey of the Clinton emails ASAP.
2 Pro-Trump FBI agents sat on the emails for 24 days.
3 Email review would've ended 10/12 if not for these rogue agents.
4 Comey wrote Congress under duress from these agents.
5 The IG knows all of this."

And there will be a former mayor of New York City who will also be implicated in working with those rogue FBI agents in Donnies favor.....

Rudy.... its going to be your turn in the barrel soon...  ;)
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Alexander555

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3832 on: April 16, 2018, 08:59:56 PM »
Trump's approval rate is back at 51 %. Maybe the killing spree on the other side of the border is pushing the voters in Trump's hands. More than 80 politicians are already killed in Mexico in the last six months, and it's still 3 months until the elections.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3833 on: April 16, 2018, 09:16:20 PM »
Trump's approval rate is back at 51 %.
According to Rasmussen. LOL... (Rasmussen is for Faux News afficionados)
In reality he is still at ca. 40% (according to the aggregation of polls on https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/ )
Troubling enough.
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3834 on: April 16, 2018, 10:03:21 PM »
Quote
1 McCabe told Comey of the Clinton emails ASAP.
2 Pro-Trump FBI agents sat on the emails for 24 days.
3 Email review would've ended 10/12 if not for these rogue agents.
4 Comey wrote Congress under duress from these agents.
5 The IG knows all of this."

And there will be a former mayor of New York City who will also be implicated in working with those rogue FBI agents in Donnies favor.....

Rudy.... its going to be your turn in the barrel soon...  ;)

As well as Erik Prince.
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3835 on: April 16, 2018, 11:15:59 PM »
Either FOX should register as a state media outlet, or they should fire Sean Hannity for interviewing and reporting about his and Trump's attorney Michael Cohen, without publically divulging that connection:

Title: "Trump lawyer Cohen did secret legal work for Sean Hannity, attorney says"

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/04/16/michael-cohen-client-list-526288

Extract: "The legal battle over federal investigators' raids on President Donald Trump's personal lawyer Michael Cohen took an unexpected turn Monday as an attorney identified Fox News host Sean Hannity as one of Cohen's legal clients.

Cohen's attorneys had acknowledged publicly that he represented Trump and former Republican National Committee deputy finance chair Elliott Broidy in legal matters, but they had sought to avoid naming a third client. Under pressure from a judge, Cohen's attorney Todd Harrison named Hannity as the client in court on Monday.

Later in his show, Hannity denied being a formal client of Cohen but acknowledged that the Trump lawyer provided some advice."
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3836 on: April 17, 2018, 02:54:50 AM »
Hopefully, Mueller will investigate how rogue New York FBI agents (together with Rudy & Erik), pressured Comey to reopen the Clinton email case, as the WH says that act swung the election in their favor:

Title: "White House Admits James Comey Swung the Election to Trump"

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/04/white-house-admits-james-comey-swung-the-election-to-trump.html

Extract: "This morning, Kellyanne Conway made an accusation that she and her boss might not have thought through: “This guy swung an election,” Conway told George Stephanopoulos on Good Morning America."
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3837 on: April 17, 2018, 04:14:57 AM »
Regarding that statement by Lavrov of the report from Spiez to OPCW :

Lavrov:

--
I will now be quoting what they sent to the OPCW in their report. You understand that this is a translation from a foreign language but I will read it in Russian, quote: “Following our analysis, the samples indicate traces of the toxic chemical BZ and its precursor which are second category chemical weapons. BZ is a nerve toxic agent, which temporarily disables a person. The psycho toxic effect is achieved within 30 to 60 minutes after its use and lasts for up to four days. This composition was in operational service in the armies of the US, the UK and other NATO countries. The Soviet Union and Russia neither designed nor stored such chemical agents. Also, the samples indicate the presence of type A-234 nerve agent in its virgin state and also products of its degradation.” End of quote.

I don't know about the 'traces' of BZ, but notice the section in bold.
As a scientific lab, investigating a substance, Spiez would NEVER write that in their report to OPCW. They don't know, and they were not asked about it either.

So we know at LEAST about that part of the 'quote' from Spiez' report, Lavrov is lying.

Rob, since you're the protector of truth and facts here, can you please answer these questions:

Why would Spiez NEVER write that in their report?  Spiez are experts in chemical weapons.....

That requires a bit of logic reasoning and a bit of experience with scientific reports.
Let me walk you through it :

First of all, OPCW would not ask any of their labs to comment on where a particular substance came from, since, as Gary Aitkenhead, the chief executive of the Defense Science and Technology Laboratory (DSTL) at Porton Down stated : That's not their "job".
The job of the scientific lab is to analyze a substance and report what is in there.
Not to speculate where it was fabricated.

Secondly, if anyone has a database of which chemical weapons are fabricated or stored, it is the OPCW herself. After all they are the implementing body for the Chemical Weapons Convention.

Thirdly, Stefan Mogl , who is the head of the Department of Chemistry in the laboratory Spiez stated : (from your link, and translated) :
https://www.nzz.ch/international/kein-zweifel-am-nowitschok-resultat-ld.1374775

Quote
Can the exact provenance be determined by checking the substance used? Mogl makes it clear that this is not possible at today's level of knowledge. In this respect, too, is the excitement about the statements of the boss of Porton Down missed, who had stated on Tuesday that his institute could not prove that the substance originated in Russia. According to Mogl, such a finding had never been expected either: Little is known about the method of preparation of the Novichok poisons, so that no conclusions can be drawn about the country of origin or even the responsible laboratory. This distinguishes this case from that in Syria: There it could be determined that the sarin used in Khan Sheikhun most likely came from Syrian army stocks due to contamination in the investigated warfare agents and by means of comparative samples.

So, what Mogl is saying here is that normally the origin of the sample cannot be determined. However, sometimes, based on the impurities or contamination in the samples, as compared to reference samples, it can, as they could for the Khan Sheikhun attack.

Note that the REASON for the assertion of allocation to a source of a sample is from evidence obtained in the sample itself. Not from any other information.

Which leads us to the last argument :

Finally, the statements that Lavrov 'quotes' from the alleged report from Spiez to OFCW are entirely non-scientific. Once again :

Quote
This composition was in operational service in the armies of the US, the UK and other NATO countries. The Soviet Union and Russia neither designed nor stored such chemical agents.

You will never find such statements in ANY scientific report.
There would always be a reference to the source. Something like :

Based on the impurities in the samples, compared to the reference samples, we can conclude that ....

or

As reported in the following scientific report, the origin of this substance is likely ...


or SOME kind of reference to where they obtained the information.
Especially the claim that "The Soviet Union and Russia neither designed nor stored such chemical agents" is non-scientific, since it contains NO reference to the source of the information, and Spiez for sure did not investigate ALL of Russia for locations where they could potentially store BZ toxins.

So there you have it. Logic reasoning and even a little bit of experience with the scientific process and scientific reports, we can with a high degree of certainty conclude that Lavrov was lying about at least this part of the 'quote'.

Also, think about it : Lavrov can easily lie about anything that is in that report from Spiez to OPCW since Spiez will NOT challenge Russia, because :
1) that report is almost certainly under a non-disclosure agreement with OPCW, and
2) they are a science lab, and they don't want to end up fighting a propaganda war with Russia, and
3) they are in Switzerland, which wants to remain neutral on ANY subject involving international disputes.

Does all of this makes sense ?

Let's wait what OPCW has to say about it. I understand there is going to be a meeting tomorrow.
Personally, I don't think that OPCW will de-classify their reports either, and only declare that their own labs (Spiez included) confirm the findings from Porton Down (being Novichok).
But we may be surprised.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 04:25:01 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3838 on: April 17, 2018, 05:05:47 AM »
BZ is an antagonist of muscarinic acetylcholine receptors. Novichok agents inhibit the enzyme acetylcholinesterase, preventing the normal breakdown of the neurotransmitter acetylcholine.

So perhaps BZ was used in treating the Skripals.

That sounds quite reasonable. Thanks.

As said, I want to await more information/reactions. This Skripal thing is very weird in many ways.

The Skripal case is crystal clear : A Russian agent poisoned them with Novichok, likely via the door handle.

The only reason it may feel "weird" by some is the massive Russian mis-information campaign that obfuscates the truth. Very similar to Russia's mis-information campaign on MH17, and the chemical attacks in Syria.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3839 on: April 17, 2018, 06:26:37 AM »
Quote
Didn't Assad's troops publish videos of a captured CW facility just days before this event?

Yes, and i'd commented on that.  The only notable equipment shown was a hospital air compressor.  A photo also of some bottles of chemicals.  Nothing persuasive from my perspective.  But if Assad were planning such an assault, why wouldn't he claim he was fighting forces using WMDs, to shift blame?  Assad is not above asserting false information.

Using open source information, various experts have weighed in on this supposed 'Chemical Weapons' Lab in Al-Shifuniya in Eastern Ghouta :

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/04/16/anatomy-russian-chemical-weapons-lab-lie/

Quote
Experts say it’s not clear what the facility in question was used for, but they are convinced that it couldn’t have been used to produce either the chlorine gas or sarin nerve agent

Regarding that 'sarin' would be produced there :

Quote
“For sarin production, all of this would have to be much more contained than it is,” Rofer writes. The ramshackle construction in the facility would’ve put anyone nearby at high risk of exposure, which can cause harm at very low concentrations. “The housekeeping is terrible,” she adds. “When you’re working with chemicals, housekeeping is more than aesthetic; it’s necessary to avoid injuring yourself. If the setup in the [picture of glassware published by RT] was used to manufacture sarin, the operators are dead.

And regarding potential chlorine production at that site :

Quote
The process can be dangerous and requires special equipment, according to the UN Joint Investigative Mechanism. “In the light of its corrosive and toxic nature, expertise and specialized equipment are required for its safe handling. For example, to transfer chlorine from a 1 ton container to smaller containers, a specialized filling station is required.”

And this facility isn’t anywhere near “the scale needed for the attacks that have been observed,” Rofer wrote in an email. “All of the equipment, except for the boilers, is at laboratory scale. But the more fundamental problem is that none of the equipment is what is needed to produce chlorine and compress it into the cylinders that [investigative journalism outlet] Bellingcat has documented” in Douma.

There was still the possibility that this 'lab' would have been used to build IED's (Improvised Explosive Devices), but as experts suggest, even that is unlikely :

Quote
Still, while the compounds written on a board are often associated with HME, the facility itself doesn’t appear consistent with other IED factories used for churning out large amounts of bombs. “The blue and yellow jugs are traditional IED main charge containers in Iraq/Afghanistan/Syria etc. But I’d expect bulk quantities of fertilizer, sugar, etc if they were making lots of HME, and I don’t see that. No wires, batteries, caps, triggers, etc to make IEDs,”

While Bellingcat nor the experts they consulted makes any definitive statement about what this 'lab' may have been used for, it looks like Steve's suggestion that it may have been a medical lab is most consistent with observed evidence at that site.
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3840 on: April 17, 2018, 07:39:56 AM »
Quote
Didn't Assad's troops publish videos of a captured CW facility just days before this event?

Yes, and i'd commented on that.  The only notable equipment shown was a hospital air compressor.  A photo also of some bottles of chemicals.  Nothing persuasive from my perspective.  But if Assad were planning such an assault, why wouldn't he claim he was fighting forces using WMDs, to shift blame?  Assad is not above asserting false information.


Using open source information, various experts have weighed in on this supposed 'Chemical Weapons' Lab in Al-Shifuniya in Eastern Ghouta :

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/04/16/anatomy-russian-chemical-weapons-lab-lie/

Quote
Experts say it’s not clear what the facility in question was used for, but they are convinced that it couldn’t have been used to produce either the chlorine gas or sarin nerve agent

Regarding that 'sarin' would be produced there :

Quote
“For sarin production, all of this would have to be much more contained than it is,” Rofer writes. The ramshackle construction in the facility would’ve put anyone nearby at high risk of exposure, which can cause harm at very low concentrations. “The housekeeping is terrible,” she adds. “When you’re working with chemicals, housekeeping is more than aesthetic; it’s necessary to avoid injuring yourself. If the setup in the [picture of glassware published by RT] was used to manufacture sarin, the operators are dead.

And regarding potential chlorine production at that site :

Quote
The process can be dangerous and requires special equipment, according to the UN Joint Investigative Mechanism. “In the light of its corrosive and toxic nature, expertise and specialized equipment are required for its safe handling. For example, to transfer chlorine from a 1 ton container to smaller containers, a specialized filling station is required.”

And this facility isn’t anywhere near “the scale needed for the attacks that have been observed,” Rofer wrote in an email. “All of the equipment, except for the boilers, is at laboratory scale. But the more fundamental problem is that none of the equipment is what is needed to produce chlorine and compress it into the cylinders that [investigative journalism outlet] Bellingcat has documented” in Douma.

There was still the possibility that this 'lab' would have been used to build IED's (Improvised Explosive Devices), but as experts suggest, even that is unlikely :

Quote
Still, while the compounds written on a board are often associated with HME, the facility itself doesn’t appear consistent with other IED factories used for churning out large amounts of bombs. “The blue and yellow jugs are traditional IED main charge containers in Iraq/Afghanistan/Syria etc. But I’d expect bulk quantities of fertilizer, sugar, etc if they were making lots of HME, and I don’t see that. No wires, batteries, caps, triggers, etc to make IEDs,”

While Bellingcat nor the experts they consulted makes any definitive statement about what this 'lab' may have been used for, it looks like Steve's suggestion that it may have been a medical lab is most consistent with observed evidence at that site.
Elliots expertise in spreading "fertilizer" is readily acknowledged. 8)
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3841 on: April 17, 2018, 08:40:59 AM »
Elliots expertise in spreading "fertilizer" is readily acknowledged. 8)

You really don't like fact checking, do you, Terry ?
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3842 on: April 17, 2018, 10:04:30 AM »
Five days after their arrival, chemical weapons inspectors in Syria will be given access to an alleged attack site on Wednesday, Russia says.

The team has been in the country since Saturday but has been prohibited from entering the town of Douma.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-43792120

Apparently, the Russians and the Assad regime still need two more days to clean up the sites before OPCW is allowed in.
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zizek

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3843 on: April 17, 2018, 04:10:41 PM »

That requires a bit of logic reasoning and a bit of experience with scientific reports.
Let me walk you through it :

First of all, OPCW would not ask any of their labs to comment on where a particular substance came from, since, as Gary Aitkenhead, the chief executive of the Defense Science and Technology Laboratory (DSTL) at Porton Down stated : That's not their "job".
The job of the scientific lab is to analyze a substance and report what is in there.
Not to speculate where it was fabricated.


From the article:

Quote
"As far as Mogl knows, the OPCW has no insight into any Novitschok stocks worldwide.

Nothing is known about the durability of Nowitschok compounds. Therefore, according to Mogl, it can not be completely ruled out that substances manufactured in the late Soviet period can still be used."


So you're telling me that OPCW told Mogl not to discuss origin in the report, but he can discuss it in the press? You realize how ridiculous that sounds right?


Secondly, if anyone has a database of which chemical weapons are fabricated or stored, it is the OPCW herself. After all they are the implementing body for the Chemical Weapons Convention.
"As far as Mogl knows, the OPCW has no insight into any Novitschok stocks worldwide."

lol

Thirdly, Stefan Mogl , who is the head of the Department of Chemistry in the laboratory Spiez stated : (from your link, and translated) :
https://www.nzz.ch/international/kein-zweifel-am-nowitschok-resultat-ld.1374775

Quote
Can the exact provenance be determined by checking the substance used? Mogl makes it clear that this is not possible at today's level of knowledge. In this respect, too, is the excitement about the statements of the boss of Porton Down missed, who had stated on Tuesday that his institute could not prove that the substance originated in Russia. According to Mogl, such a finding had never been expected either: Little is known about the method of preparation of the Novichok poisons, so that no conclusions can be drawn about the country of origin or even the responsible laboratory. This distinguishes this case from that in Syria: There it could be determined that the sarin used in Khan Sheikhun most likely came from Syrian army stocks due to contamination in the investigated warfare agents and by means of comparative samples.

So, what Mogl is saying here is that normally the origin of the sample cannot be determined. However, sometimes, based on the impurities or contamination in the samples, as compared to reference samples, it can, as they could for the Khan Sheikhun attack.

Note that the REASON for the assertion of allocation to a source of a sample is from evidence obtained in the sample itself. Not from any other information.
[/quote]

Uhhh. What are you getting on here? BZ is the sample. So if you know BZ is only manufactured in NATO labs, why would you omit that critical piece of information from the report.

OPCW pinned Khan Sheikhun because of the presence of difficult to handle markers. Which meant that only Syria (vs. rebels) had the capabilities to manufacturer the gas.  sooo...... If only certain countries have the capabilities to manufacturer BZ.... Wouldn't that be worth mentioning?




Which leads us to the last argument :

Finally, the statements that Lavrov 'quotes' from the alleged report from Spiez to OFCW are entirely non-scientific. Once again :

Quote
This composition was in operational service in the armies of the US, the UK and other NATO countries. The Soviet Union and Russia neither designed nor stored such chemical agents.

You will never find such statements in ANY scientific report.
There would always be a reference to the source. Something like :

Based on the impurities in the samples, compared to the reference samples, we can conclude that ....

or

As reported in the following scientific report, the origin of this substance is likely ...


or SOME kind of reference to where they obtained the information.
Especially the claim that "The Soviet Union and Russia neither designed nor stored such chemical agents" is non-scientific, since it contains NO reference to the source of the information, and Spiez for sure did not investigate ALL of Russia for locations where they could potentially store BZ toxins.


oh come on rob. This is so weak. There's absolutely no reason to cite the paper's own laboratory analysis to make that assertion. There could easily be a discussion on the origin of BZ somewhere else in the paper. If porton down couldn't find BZ and Spiez did, then Spiez may be an expert on the substance and included everything they knew about it, including origin.



So there you have it. Logic reasoning and even a little bit of experience with the scientific process and scientific reports, we can with a high degree of certainty conclude that Lavrov was lying about at least this part of the 'quote'.

No. what you call logic reasoning is what I call grasping at straws.


Also, think about it : Lavrov can easily lie about anything that is in that report from Spiez to OPCW since Spiez will NOT challenge Russia, because :
1) that report is almost certainly under a non-disclosure agreement with OPCW, and
2) they are a science lab, and they don't want to end up fighting a propaganda war with Russia, and
3) they are in Switzerland, which wants to remain neutral on ANY subject involving international disputes.

1) Yeah, I know Spiez can't say anything. But OPCW can. Why would the OPCW just let Russia spread blatant lies about their own report.  It's been three days now, that's practically an eternity.
2) Spiez isn't just a science lab. Look at their website. They have a huge scope in relation to weapons.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 04:22:19 PM by zizek »

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3844 on: April 17, 2018, 04:32:05 PM »
1) Yeah, I know Spiez can't say anything. But OPCW can. Why would the OPCW just let Russia spread blatant lies about their own report.  It's been three days now, that's practically an eternity.

I know the OPCW convenes tomorrow, but I'm still surprised that there have been so few reactions to Lavrov's statements. You'd expect journalists to jump on it. It almost feels like they're just sitting and waiting to be told what to write.

If we accept the logic that OPCW inspectors haven't been allowed to enter Douma yet, because Putin and Assad aren't done yet cleaning the place of all traces, one might also be justified to think that it's taking a while to get everybody to agree on what story to put out to explain how Lavrov's statements wrt BZ are just lies, lies, lies.  ::)
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3845 on: April 17, 2018, 06:04:15 PM »
1) Yeah, I know Spiez can't say anything. But OPCW can. Why would the OPCW just let Russia spread blatant lies about their own report.  It's been three days now, that's practically an eternity.

I know the OPCW convenes tomorrow, but I'm still surprised that there have been so few reactions to Lavrov's statements. You'd expect journalists to jump on it. It almost feels like they're just sitting and waiting to be told what to write.

If we accept the logic that OPCW inspectors haven't been allowed to enter Douma yet, because Putin and Assad aren't done yet cleaning the place of all traces, one might also be justified to think that it's taking a while to get everybody to agree on what story to put out to explain how Lavrov's statements wrt BZ are just lies, lies, lies.  ::)

BZ doesn't look like it would be hard to make.   There is a report that it was used during the Serbian War.  Very interesting reading at Erowid:
https://erowid.org/chemicals/bz/bz.shtml

I don't believe Lavrov when he said BZ was never made in their chemical weapons labs.

I suspect it was just a contaminant on the glassware used to make the Novichok, whoever made it.  One might make safer stuff like this before graduating to highly lethal agents.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3846 on: April 17, 2018, 07:50:30 PM »

I suspect it was just a contaminant on the glassware used to make the Novichok, whoever made it. One might make safer stuff like this before graduating to highly lethal agents.
Probably true for anyone whipping up a batch in the high-school chemistry lab,
but wouldn't a State Actor, who has been manufacturing these weapons on a massive scale since the end of the Soviet Union, have graduated far beyond taking such an incremental approach?


I think that the very high levels of purity rule out garage laboratories.
If so we're left with State actors that have experience in both A-234, and BZ.


The nearest lab that fits that bill would be in Porton Down, amazingly enough, just a stone's throw from where the incident occured.
Occam's cheek would be left as smooth as a baby's behind.


Isn't finding CWs in Salisbury rather like finding gamblers in Las Vegas, or Coal Miners in W. Virginia. It's not that strange, it's what they do there.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3847 on: April 17, 2018, 09:03:52 PM »
Five days after their arrival, chemical weapons inspectors in Syria will be given access to an alleged attack site on Wednesday, Russia says.

The team has been in the country since Saturday but has been prohibited from entering the town of Douma.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-43792120

Apparently, the Russians and the Assad regime still need two more days to clean up the sites before OPCW is allowed in.

Rob,
they found a lot of explosives in that place, necessary to clear any booby traps.
Some of it hidden in tunnels under a hospital. Debunk that please.

Also relevant to ask, how long time did it take until the OPCW team came to Khan Sheikhoun where the previous staged chemical attack happened, a year ago?
Oh, they never arrived? Safer that way, if your conclusions are already made up before investigation.

https://english.almanar.com.lb/487100



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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3848 on: April 17, 2018, 10:39:24 PM »
A-234 reported to have been in liquid form:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43798068

sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3849 on: April 18, 2018, 12:00:28 AM »
The Politics Psychology of Russiagate

"Glenn Greenwald on Russiagate and the comforting answers it offers to despondent liberals."

  Article April 17, 2018: https://www.jacobinmag.com/2018/04/russiagate-surveillance-politics-russian-trolls-greenwald

"Jacobin Radio host Daniel Denvir spoke to the Intercept’s Glenn Greenwald about Russiagate, mass surveillance, and “the resistance” to Donald Trump. The following is a condensed version of their conversation."

  Podcast February 27, 2018: https://www.blubrry.com/jacobin/31786933/the-dig-glenn-greenwald-on-surveillance-hypocrisy-amid-russiagate-mania/
« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 12:09:15 AM by ivica »