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sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3850 on: April 18, 2018, 12:11:35 AM »

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3851 on: April 18, 2018, 12:20:02 AM »
A-234 reported to have been in liquid form:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43798068

sidd


I'd read a number of articles to that effect. Nothing today on Yulia, or her dad.
An interview with either one might be worth enough to set someone up for life. Where oh where have the journalists gone?
Just a CCTV shot of Yulia entering the hospital to visit her dad could add substantially to somebody's retirement fund.


Strange how such a volatile fluid didn't flash off and in the process loose it's purity? - Wasn't that one of the questions that the Russians had asked?
The liquidity of the A-234 just poses more questions about how this could be possible.


Terry

SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3852 on: April 18, 2018, 12:28:56 AM »
A-234 reported to have been in liquid form:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43798068

sidd
. . .
Strange how such a volatile fluid didn't flash off and in the process loose it's purity? - Wasn't that one of the questions that the Russians had asked?
The liquidity of the A-234 just poses more questions about how this could be possible.


Terry

This is definitely not a volatile substance at all:
Boiling Point:   258.1±23.0 °C at 760 mmHg
Vapour Pressure:   0.0±0.5 mmHg at 25°C

http://www.chemspider.com/Chemical-Structure.64808787.html

I couldn't find a melting point

I'd read, somewhere on this thread, that the agent is solid at room temperature.

Being found "in liquid form" might suggest it was dissolved in a carrier fluid.  Something like mineral oil, I imagine.

Edit:  The Compendium of Chemical Warfare Agents is vaguely confirmatory about its lack of volatility (unlike some contributors here), and persistence:

"Persistency Depends upon munitions used and the weather. Heavily
splashed liquid persists for long periods of time under average
weather conditions."
http://chemistry-chemists.com/chemister/NoChemie/Toxicology/compendium-of-chemical-warfare-agents.pdf
« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 12:52:39 AM by SteveMDFP »

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3853 on: April 18, 2018, 12:53:43 AM »
The enemy is within
Don't confuse me with him

E. Smith

sidd

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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3855 on: April 18, 2018, 01:11:20 AM »
Fisk finds scepticism onsite in Syria:

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/syria-chemical-attack-gas-douma-robert-fisk-ghouta-damascus-a8307726.html

sidd
The "white hats" apparently leaving with the rebels probably needs to be to be looked into.


Hosing off kids trying to escape hypoxia brought on by a dust storm makes more sense than hosing off kids exposed to sarin gas, or chlorine poisoning. The first would be dead, while the later would be screaming in agony - or dead.
Someone with access to weather data from Douma could probably verify or reject the sand storm story. Not the fog of war, but a storm of propaganda?


Robert Fisk is needed at home - in Salisbury to be precise.
Terry

zizek

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3856 on: April 18, 2018, 01:39:35 AM »

SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3857 on: April 18, 2018, 02:10:10 AM »
Washington Post has their own reporting from that press bus trip into Douma:

" During a government-organized trip on Saturday, survivors spoke to the AP of the horror they witnessed from a chlorine-like substance that killed their neighbors, but they blamed the rebels for the attack, without providing any evidence."

I think those who stayed wouldn't want to say anything to displease the governments of Syria or Russia.  If the rebels had gassed their own people, I'm sure government forces would be displaying stocks of these agents.  We can expect "party line" testimony on all sides, however.

I think Assad did use chemical weapons.  As a military tactic, it seems to have worked very effectively.

PS:  In Fisk's report, I find the following passage a bit curious: 
"By bad luck, too, the doctors who were on duty that night on 7 April were all in Damascus giving evidence to a chemical weapons enquiry, which will be attempting to provide a definitive answer to that question in the coming weeks."

Is it coincidence that *all* the medical witnesses were unavailable to the press?  Not one stayed behind to care for the people?  Did they have a choice about all being taken to Damascus?  Is this a public enquiry, or detention?

Quite possibly, what they had to say while in rebel-held territory might not have been the truth.  Quite possibly, what they have to say in Damascus may not be the truth.
The truth may prove elusive.  But especially unlikely to be found on RT or Syrian news media.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 02:37:02 AM by SteveMDFP »


TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3859 on: April 18, 2018, 02:53:44 AM »
Steve
I'd assumed the doctors were in Damascus being questioned by the OPCW.


Fisk seems a reliable journalist interested in getting to whatever truth is there.
The rebels did surrender after the event, but I thought that this was expected to occur at this time in any case.


Has anyone checked the weather?
What was your take on the white helmets departure with the rebel forces? - assuming that's true.
Terry

Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3860 on: April 18, 2018, 02:59:19 AM »
I opened up a thread on "Mueller Investigation & Cohen Investigation."  Things are going to heat up rapidly in both investigations and they will overlap.
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3861 on: April 18, 2018, 03:19:44 AM »
Steve
I'd assumed the doctors were in Damascus being questioned by the OPCW.
The OPCW was coming directly to Douma.  But then delayed by local authorities there for lack of appropriate permits.  Snort.
Why would anyone remove witnesses from the scene that investigators are coming to?

Quote
Fisk seems a reliable journalist interested in getting to whatever truth is there.
The rebels did surrender after the event, but I thought that this was expected to occur at this time in any case.
It was a negotiated withdrawal, not a surrender. The government bused them out. But the rebels agreed to it after the attack.  Makes sense to me, as Japan surrendered after Hiroshima (and Nagasaki).
 
I think reporters in government-held territory are hearing the government's line.
I think reporters in rebel-held territory hear the rebel's line.

I'm sure the White Helmets are hostile to Assad, because they risk their lives rescuing people from Assad's bombing.  That's an inevitable bias.  I really don't believe they function mostly to support rebel interests.  I suspect they left with the rebels because 1. that's where they'd be needed, and 2. they likely wouldn't have gotten a friendly welcome from the Syrian army.  They're likely much safer with the rebels.

It's notable that those who dispute Western media accounts can't seem to agree on whether it was a "false flag" or a hoax.  Can't be both.  If no chemical traces are found, the Russian/Syrian line will be that it was a hoax.  If chemical traces *are* found, the line will be that the rebels did it themselves.  I don't think either a hoax or a false flag are credible explanations.

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3862 on: April 18, 2018, 03:46:13 AM »
Steve, thank you for your extremely well reasoned posts, in the face of relentless Russian/Syrian propaganda.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3863 on: April 18, 2018, 03:53:03 AM »
Now that Assad in back in control of Douma, you have to be VERY careful with the statements that people make in that town.

For example : From Fisk's article :

Quote
As Dr Assim Rahaibani announces this extraordinary conclusion, it is worth observing that he is by his own admission not an eyewitness himself ....,

Is he saying he was not there when the patients came in on April 7 ?
If so, how come he can claim :

Quote
People began to arrive here suffering from hypoxia, oxygen loss. Then someone at the door, a “White Helmet”, shouted “Gas!”, and a panic began.

If he was not there, then who told him that ?
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3864 on: April 18, 2018, 04:37:51 AM »
Now that Assad in back in control of Douma, you have to be VERY careful with the statements that people make in that town.

For example : From Fisk's article :

Quote
As Dr Assim Rahaibani announces this extraordinary conclusion, it is worth observing that he is by his own admission not an eyewitness himself ....,

Is he saying he was not there when the patients came in on April 7 ?
If so, how come he can claim :

Quote
People began to arrive here suffering from hypoxia, oxygen loss. Then someone at the door, a “White Helmet”, shouted “Gas!”, and a panic began.

If he was not there, then who told him that ?
Probably his fellow medical professionals, those who were testifying in Damascus - where the OPCW was?




If we need to "be very careful" with the eyewitnesses from Douma, who should we believe. May, who wasn't in the country, Trump, who wasn't on the continent. or Macron who apparently admitted that the missile mission was "illegal".


Fortunately we don't have these problems in Salisbury. Either none of the locals have anything to say to reporters, or all of the reporters have been too afraid of the powers that be to even ask.
Could it be that both witnesses and reporters feel more intimidated in Salisbury than in Douma?


What a very strange turn of events.
Terry

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3865 on: April 18, 2018, 04:52:22 AM »
Quote
People began to arrive here suffering from hypoxia, oxygen loss. Then someone at the door, a “White Helmet”, shouted “Gas!”, and a panic began.

If he was not there, then who told him that ?
Probably his fellow medical professionals, those who were testifying in Damascus - where the OPCW was...

It would have been nice if Fisk would have asked him this question.
But he did not.

Quote
If we need to "be very careful" with the eyewitnesses from Douma, who should we believe...

Don't believe anyone. Just look at the evidence. Bellingcat gave a good overview here :
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/04/11/open-source-survey-alleged-chemical-attacks-douma-7th-april-2018/
« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 05:19:25 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3866 on: April 18, 2018, 05:07:52 AM »
This is how bad Russian/Syrian propaganda has gotten about the chemical attack in Douma :

Russian TV is now using promotional material from a movie in their propaganda against the White Helmets in Syria :

"The Douma Chemical Attack – Fake News about Fake News on Russia’s Fake News"

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/04/13/doumafakenews/
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3867 on: April 18, 2018, 05:15:12 AM »
Steve
Many believe that Japan had been attempting to surrender prior to beta testing Truman's shiny new toys. He'll long be remembered for being the first to use such weapons on human subjects.
A damn shame Roosevelt wasn't allowed his own choice for VP.


The negotiated withdrawal, as opposed to surrender is difficult for the western mind to accept. At least those western minds brought up on chess and checkers.
Russian military strategy is based on Go. not Chess. I'd discovered that while observing the goings on in the Ukraine - actually thought I'd discovered something new - only to find out that Kissinger had written a whole book on the subject using the Russian word for the game we call Go.


No Kings to be protected, no Queens with immense mobility and lethality. Nothing but stones who are never sacrificed, and positions that can be defended, or not.
The position that is Douma is important, the people fighting against her much less so. Withdrawn, surrendered, or eliminated, very little difference in Go. It's not like a Queen that can withdraw across the board, then attack on the next move.
Position isn't a part of the game, it is the game.


Terry

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3868 on: April 18, 2018, 05:48:37 AM »
Elliot's never had a more loyal acolyte. :)


For those interested, a brief interlude with Noam Chomsky



At 14:30 he starts in on aggressive acts sold on humanitarian grounds. It may give pause to those who believe the bombing of Serbia can be justified, and it certainly addresses a situation where one side is willing to start a war that could kill huge numbers to assure the world that no one will kill another 43 innocents.

I'd love Noam if it wasn't for that shrill high pitched voice ::)
Terry

sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3869 on: April 18, 2018, 07:17:22 AM »
"relentless Russian/Syrian propaganda"

There is, of course, no such thing as Western propaganda.

sidd

sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3870 on: April 18, 2018, 07:20:49 AM »
More Syrian/Russian propaganda:

Chris Floyd on the latest Syria strikes:


"if the US/UK/France really believed the building they targeted (and hit) in a heavily populated civilian area of Damascus was actually making chemical weapons, what do they think would have happened if all that toxic material had been dispersed by explosions throughout the surrounding neighborhoods? "

http://www.chris-floyd.com/mobile/articles/alchemical-reactions-transmuting-death-dealing-dung-into-pr-gold-14042018.html

Times of India:

"Said said the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons had visited the site in Barzeh in recent years and had declared it free of any toxic weapons.

"The OPCW used to stay in the two upper rooms, and use the labs, and we would cooperate with them completely," he said.


"The OPCW has proven in two reports that this building and the centre as a whole are empty and do not produce any chemical weapons." "

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/middle-east/at-destroyed-syria-lab-workers-deny-producing-toxic-weapons/articleshow/63764865.cms

sidd

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3871 on: April 18, 2018, 08:44:13 AM »
It's notable that those who dispute Western media accounts can't seem to agree on whether it was a "false flag" or a hoax.  Can't be both.  If no chemical traces are found, the Russian/Syrian line will be that it was a hoax.  If chemical traces *are* found, the line will be that the rebels did it themselves.  I don't think either a hoax or a false flag are credible explanations.

Spot on, Steve.

Propaganda is like Schrodinger's cat in quantum physics : contradictory realities can coexist simultaneously.

We saw the same thing about MH17 : Russia was simultaneously promoting the theory that a Ukrainian SU-25 shot down the plane, and the theory that a Ukrainian BUK did it (plus a host of other even less plausible theories).

And again in the Skripal case, where Russia promoted 14 mutually contradictory theories :
http://www.businessinsider.com/theories-russia-is-using-to-deflect-blame-for-sergei-skripal-attack-2018-3

In fact, if you only look at Russian propaganda, you will get a pretty good idea of the truth by finding the only theory they don't promote.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 08:58:51 AM by Rob Dekker »
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johnm33

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3872 on: April 18, 2018, 11:48:09 AM »
No reporting, D-notice

Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3873 on: April 18, 2018, 01:04:53 PM »
I opened up a thread on "Mueller Investigation & Cohen Investigation."  Things are going to heat up rapidly in both investigations and they will overlap.
Hmmm. Cohen is also at the heart of Russiagate (E.g. the Steele dossier story about Cohen in Prague).

It would be better to put the Syria stuff and the Skripal stuff into an extra thread, perhaps "Chemical warfare/terrorism".

DrTskoul

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3874 on: April 18, 2018, 02:23:59 PM »
Re: propaganda

State sponsored Propaganda was developed as a tool and rose to a formal science in all modern totalitarian regimes ( WWII Germany, Soviet Union/Russia, N Korea , China , Burma, etc. ) . Has been used as a tool by all governments of all eras but not at the high level of those above. So we can take sides and write comments about “fake” this and that  till our thumbs go numb.

The strikes were for show. And the false flag theory is as credible as the twin towers flash flag theory....

zizek

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3875 on: April 18, 2018, 02:39:50 PM »
Looks like I have to eat my hat.   :-*
BZ was included to the control sample. And were not found in the samples gathered at Salisbury according to the OPCW statement:
https://twitter.com/OPCW/status/986571505311145986

OPCW sure knows how to draw suspicion to their organization. How hard would it have been to release a statement beforehand that it was the control sample which had BZ in it. I suppose if one if the labs was undergoing testing they might have had to hold off.  But they don't include any indication of that.

Also how did only 2 of the 4 labs find the BZ sample.  Doesn't give much confidence in their designated labs  :o .  Unless they gave different controls to the other labs.


zizek

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3876 on: April 18, 2018, 03:07:23 PM »
Washington Post has their own reporting from that press bus trip into Douma:

" During a government-organized trip on Saturday, survivors spoke to the AP of the horror they witnessed from a chlorine-like substance that killed their neighbors, but they blamed the rebels for the attack, without providing any evidence."

I think those who stayed wouldn't want to say anything to displease the governments of Syria or Russia.  If the rebels had gassed their own people, I'm sure government forces would be displaying stocks of these agents.  We can expect "party line" testimony on all sides, however.

I think Assad did use chemical weapons.  As a military tactic, it seems to have worked very effectively.

Yeah I agree. It's incredibly difficult to accurately assess the happenings around a single event during the fog of war. It's good to be suspicious. That's why I don't put a lot of stock into Bellingcat's analysis.  Why should I believe Bellngcat's "Aircraft Spotter" any more than the previously posted video of the doctors saying that it was smoke inhalation. Or why I should I trust the White Helmet's testimony of the events, who retreated to the Al-Qaeda controlled province of Idlib?



PS:  In Fisk's report, I find the following passage a bit curious: 
"By bad luck, too, the doctors who were on duty that night on 7 April were all in Damascus giving evidence to a chemical weapons enquiry, which will be attempting to provide a definitive answer to that question in the coming weeks."

Is it coincidence that *all* the medical witnesses were unavailable to the press?  Not one stayed behind to care for the people?  Did they have a choice about all being taken to Damascus?  Is this a public enquiry, or detention?

Quite possibly, what they had to say while in rebel-held territory might not have been the truth.  Quite possibly, what they have to say in Damascus may not be the truth.
The truth may prove elusive.  But especially unlikely to be found on RT or Syrian news media.

He said doctors on duty, there could easily be more doctors in Douma who could care for the patients. And if we are to believe the staff's testimony who were in the clinic, they weren't even treating chemical weapons. So it's not like they needed to stay around to treat something more serious than smoke inhalation.

SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3877 on: April 18, 2018, 03:21:27 PM »


He said doctors on duty, there could easily be more doctors in Douma who could care for the patients. And if we are to believe the staff's testimony who were in the clinic, they weren't even treating chemical weapons. So it's not like they needed to stay around to treat something more serious than smoke inhalation.

Look at this detail from Assad's perspective.  Hosting the Western press in a visit to a suspected nerve gas attack is a very, very big deal.  Potentially, life or death for the regime.  If no nerve gas was used, it would be a top priority to bring the press face-to-face with the doctors on the scene to verify the fact.  But the press wasn't  brought to them, nor  they to the press.

There's only one reasonable interpretation of the press unavailability of the doctors.  Assad didn't want the press talking to the doctors who might say what actually happened.

zizek

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3878 on: April 18, 2018, 03:33:04 PM »


He said doctors on duty, there could easily be more doctors in Douma who could care for the patients. And if we are to believe the staff's testimony who were in the clinic, they weren't even treating chemical weapons. So it's not like they needed to stay around to treat something more serious than smoke inhalation.

Look at this detail from Assad's perspective.  Hosting the Western press in a visit to a suspected nerve gas attack is a very, very big deal.  Potentially, life or death for the regime.  If no nerve gas was used, it would be a top priority to bring the press face-to-face with the doctors on the scene to verify the fact.  But the press wasn't  brought to them, nor  they to the press.

There's only one reasonable interpretation of the press unavailability of the doctors.  Assad didn't want the press talking to the doctors who might say what actually happened.

There was press. RT and Syrian News Agency both conducted interviews of staff claiming to be at the Douma clinic. Both interviews have been posted in this very thread.

edit: I missed the western press part.
Is there any indication that western press was blocked from going to Douma? It was a war zone after all? There are western journalists there now since things have cleared up.  And OPCW did interview those 22 people Syria gave them access to.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 03:47:55 PM by zizek »

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3879 on: April 18, 2018, 03:45:38 PM »
Look at this detail from Assad's perspective.  Hosting the Western press in a visit to a suspected nerve gas attack is a very, very big deal.  Potentially, life or death for the regime.

You're contradicting yourself a bit here. If it's a very, very big deal that could potentially end the regime, why would Assad use chemical weapons in the first place? You say, because it'll make it easier to win. But he's going to win anyway, so why run the risk of losing? That don't make sense.

And where are the western journalists? Does the British ministry of defense even allow that Fisk guy to be there?
The enemy is within
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E. Smith

zizek

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3880 on: April 18, 2018, 04:00:36 PM »
I want to make a point that isn't addressing anyone specific.
You'll often see people assume culpability of a state if they don't cooperate 100% with western media and institutions. Both the Iraq and Libyan war were based off of lies propagated by western media to justify a war that turned those countries inside out. Hopefully you can understand why sovereign middle eastern states might be hesitant to cooperate with those same liars when it could mean getting a bayonet shoved up your ass.

SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3881 on: April 18, 2018, 04:19:34 PM »
Look at this detail from Assad's perspective.  Hosting the Western press in a visit to a suspected nerve gas attack is a very, very big deal.  Potentially, life or death for the regime.

You're contradicting yourself a bit here. If it's a very, very big deal that could potentially end the regime, why would Assad use chemical weapons in the first place? You say, because it'll make it easier to win. But he's going to win anyway, so why run the risk of losing? That don't make sense.

And where are the western journalists? Does the British ministry of defense even allow that Fisk guy to be there?

It would be a risk/benefit thing.  Why risk the consequences of a chemical attack?  Because Douma was a major holdout against Assad, very close to Damascus.  Lots of munitions, and they'd held out for a few *years*.  Probably could have held out for months longer.  And other chemical attacks had led to no consequences for a year. 

If Syria felt they could prepare the site and local people to fool the press, they'd let the press in.  The contingency would be to bar everyone.  Note, the press (including Fisk and AP) were bused in for tours and talking to folks.  Press doesn't do tests for residual traces of nerve gas.

Note the the OPCW has been repeatedly delayed with flimsy excuses, barred from entry to Douma.  What, its safe for press but not people who can test for nerve agents?

I think the only reasonable conclusion is that Assad *did* use chemical weapons, the site was sufficiently cleaned up to allow press to visit, but not cleaned up enough to confidently fool the weapons inspectors.  Assad specifically prevented the press from talking to the doctors who were on duty.  Fisk stated that *none* of these doctors were available at the time of the press visit.

Side note:  in criminal forensic investigations, eyewitness testimony is known to be the least reliable form of evidence evidence.  Laypeople assume eyewitness testimony to be the most persuasive.  Eyewitness testimony is quite weak evidence, actually.

zizek

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3882 on: April 18, 2018, 04:42:46 PM »
Look at this detail from Assad's perspective.  Hosting the Western press in a visit to a suspected nerve gas attack is a very, very big deal.  Potentially, life or death for the regime.

You're contradicting yourself a bit here. If it's a very, very big deal that could potentially end the regime, why would Assad use chemical weapons in the first place? You say, because it'll make it easier to win. But he's going to win anyway, so why run the risk of losing? That don't make sense.

And where are the western journalists? Does the British ministry of defense even allow that Fisk guy to be there?

I think the only reasonable conclusion is that Assad *did* use chemical weapons, the site was sufficiently cleaned up to allow press to visit, but not cleaned up enough to confidently fool the weapons inspectors.  Assad specifically prevented the press from talking to the doctors who were on duty.  Fisk stated that *none* of these doctors were available at the time of the press visit.


There is NO reasonable conclusion. That is the problem. That is the problem with Bellingcat. That is a problem with western media. Every single war we've seen in the past has used flimsy evidence to a construct a narrative that justifies imperialistic action.  And time after time again once the fog of war clears we find out that those conclusions weren't accurate. But it doesn't matter, because the deaths have already occurred, the houses are already inhabitable, the roads impassible, the water poisoned, the power shut down.  And we all move on. Woops.

But this time it's different.... you see..... Bellingcat.... He knows. Open source data. This time it'll be different. This time our bombs will be the good bombs. Finally, a war we can be happy about. 

DrTskoul

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3883 on: April 18, 2018, 04:49:00 PM »
One narrative against another narrative. Who to believe and where the facts come from? And don’t tell me that the Russian media were offering deep analysis of the invasion in Ukraine instead he of a similar enabling narrative. A strongman instilling fear into a rebellion .... never happened before huh?   

zizek

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3884 on: April 18, 2018, 05:08:01 PM »
One narrative against another narrative. Who to believe and where the facts come from? And don’t tell me that the Russian media were offering deep analysis of the invasion in Ukraine instead he of a similar enabling narrative. A strongman instilling fear into a rebellion .... never happened before huh?   
No, they weren't. Because Russia media is garbage.
Ukraine is used as a buffer against Russian Dominance. The western media never discusses how NATO is currently, and has for decades, supported the ultra-nationalistic anti-Russian Ukrainians to prevent the expansion of Russian influence.  The media will never report on how we're literally arming nazis.  We only report on the aggressive actions of Russia. Which is good, because I don't agree with ANY imperialistic action.  But we don't tell the whole story. That's the problem. The west will always find a way to either justify or downplay our own violent imperialistic action, and exaggerate other nations violent adventures.  Our narrative will always support the empire. No matter how many wars we start, no matter how many lives we take, no matter how much suffering we inflict. Our narrative will always be the correct one. 

DrTskoul

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3885 on: April 18, 2018, 05:33:44 PM »
US, Canada, Western and Eastern European countries have sold weapons to Ukraine. China and Russia and Israel to Myanmar and African dictatorships... , Russia has been selling weapons to both Greece and Turkey (S-300s) and Syria and Iran etc etc Nobody’s hands are clean.

As far as your assertion go, if one has read from multiple sources, they would have already known about both the weaponry support and the ultra right leaning Ukrainians. Similar to the types now governing Hungary, have been governing Latvia etc. The narratives of fear push its country to their pre-existing extremes (eg Ukranian nationalists had initially cooperated with Nazis)...

SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3886 on: April 18, 2018, 07:15:20 PM »
Although journalists were bused into and toured Douma without difficulty or incident, OPCW investigators are still barred from the site of the incident:

After U.N. Team Comes Under Fire, Not Clear When Inspectors Will Enter Douma
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/04/18/603133756/after-u-n-team-comes-under-fire-not-clear-when-inspectors-will-enter-douma

"International chemical weapons inspectors have not yet managed to enter the Syrian town of Douma — and it's not clear when they will be able to visit the town, which was the site of a suspected chemical weapons attack on April 7.

Syria and its ally Russia had invited inspectors with the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons to visit the town, but then were accused of blocking them from accessing it for several days. Then Syrian state media claimed on Tuesday that the inspectors had entered the town.

But on Wednesday, OPCW said that's not what happened.

Instead, a U.N. security team entered Douma to "conduct a reconnaissance visit to the sites" ahead of the visit by the inspectors, according to an OPCW statement.

That security team was met with a large crowd at the first inspection site. At the second site, "the team came under small arms fire and an explosive was detonated," OPCW says.

NPR's Ruth Sherlock says that nobody was reportedly injured in the attack. But the arrival of inspectors is now up in the air. . . ."

I can only conclude that Syria and Russia seek to prevent OPCW from collecting evidence.

Steve

Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3887 on: April 18, 2018, 08:34:48 PM »
Looks like I have to eat my hat.   :-*
BZ was included to the control sample. And were not found in the samples gathered at Salisbury according to the OPCW statement:
https://twitter.com/OPCW/status/986571505311145986

OPCW sure knows how to draw suspicion to their organization. How hard would it have been to release a statement beforehand that it was the control sample which had BZ in it. I suppose if one if the labs was undergoing testing they might have had to hold off.  But they don't include any indication of that.

Also how did only 2 of the 4 labs find the BZ sample.  Doesn't give much confidence in their designated labs  :o .  Unless they gave different controls to the other labs.
Suspicion, suspicion... Perhaps the OPCW intentionally let that Lawrow bullshit dangle in the air some time, just for fun. There are, after all, enough fools around (incl. here!) who want to believe Lavrov.  And now, hahaha, it turns out it wasn't even BZ but a precursor substance, and it was added for quality control. (Just what I would do to check if they find everything.)

From the OPCW report:
https://www.opcw.org/fileadmin/OPCW/EC/M-59/en/ecm59dg01_e_.pdf
Quote
There was no other chemical that was identified by the Labs. The precursor of
BZ that is referred to in the public statements, commonly known as 3Q, was contained in the
control sample prepared by the OPCW Lab in accordance with the existing quality control
procedures. Otherwise it has nothing to do with the samples collected by the OPCW Team in
Salisbury. This chemical was reported back to the OPCW by the two designated labs and the
findings are duly reflected in the report.

It is Lawrow who knows how to draw suspicion to the OPCW.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/18/opcw-rejects-russian-claims-of-second-salisbury-nerve-agent
Quote
The EU [...] said: “We regret that we continue to witness persistent and malign Russian attempts to undermine the credibility of the OPCW secretariat and technical report. All this is aimed at hampering and obscuring the investigation in a manner that damages the credibility of the chemical weapons convention.”

« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 08:49:39 PM by Martin Gisser »

zizek

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3888 on: April 19, 2018, 04:22:33 AM »
Looks like I have to eat my hat.   :-*
BZ was included to the control sample. And were not found in the samples gathered at Salisbury according to the OPCW statement:
https://twitter.com/OPCW/status/986571505311145986

OPCW sure knows how to draw suspicion to their organization. How hard would it have been to release a statement beforehand that it was the control sample which had BZ in it. I suppose if one if the labs was undergoing testing they might have had to hold off.  But they don't include any indication of that.

Also how did only 2 of the 4 labs find the BZ sample.  Doesn't give much confidence in their designated labs  :o .  Unless they gave different controls to the other labs.
Suspicion, suspicion... Perhaps the OPCW intentionally let that Lawrow bullshit dangle in the air some time, just for fun. There are, after all, enough fools around (incl. here!) who want to believe Lavrov.  And now, hahaha, it turns out it wasn't even BZ but a precursor substance, and it was added for quality control. (Just what I would do to check if they find everything.)

From the OPCW report:
https://www.opcw.org/fileadmin/OPCW/EC/M-59/en/ecm59dg01_e_.pdf
Quote
There was no other chemical that was identified by the Labs. The precursor of
BZ that is referred to in the public statements, commonly known as 3Q, was contained in the
control sample prepared by the OPCW Lab in accordance with the existing quality control
procedures. Otherwise it has nothing to do with the samples collected by the OPCW Team in
Salisbury. This chemical was reported back to the OPCW by the two designated labs and the
findings are duly reflected in the report.

It is Lawrow who knows how to draw suspicion to the OPCW.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/18/opcw-rejects-russian-claims-of-second-salisbury-nerve-agent
Quote
The EU [...] said: “We regret that we continue to witness persistent and malign Russian attempts to undermine the credibility of the OPCW secretariat and technical report. All this is aimed at hampering and obscuring the investigation in a manner that damages the credibility of the chemical weapons convention.”




The whole thing is pretty great. I think you're right about dangling BZ in front of Lavrov.  OPCW knew Lavrov is a hot-head who would say anything. They knew that someone is leaking to the Russians. So why not dangle some juice in front of him, he'll jump right on it, let the press cover it fora few days, than humiliate him with the real report. It's pretty damn clever if you ask me

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3889 on: April 19, 2018, 06:34:25 AM »
After the OPCW statements regarding BZ precursors in the control sample
https://www.opcw.org/fileadmin/OPCW/EC/M-59/en/ecm59dg01_e_.pdf
and specifically :
Quote
There was no other chemical that was identified by the Labs. The precursor of
BZ that is referred to in the public statements, commonly known as 3Q, was contained in the
control sample prepared by the OPCW Lab in accordance with the existing quality control
procedures. Otherwise it has nothing to do with the samples collected by the OPCW Team in
Salisbury.

let us now take another look back at what Russia claimed of the Spiez report to OPCW :
http://www.mid.ru/en/foreign_policy/news/-/asset_publisher/cKNonkJE02Bw/content/id/3169545

Quote
Lavrov:

--
I will now be quoting what they sent to the OPCW in their report. You understand that this is a translation from a foreign language but I will read it in Russian, quote: “Following our analysis, the samples indicate traces of the toxic chemical BZ and its precursor which are second category chemical weapons. BZ is a nerve toxic agent, which temporarily disables a person. The psycho toxic effect is achieved within 30 to 60 minutes after its use and lasts for up to four days. This composition was in operational service in the armies of the US, the UK and other NATO countries. The Soviet Union and Russia neither designed nor stored such chemical agents. Also, the samples indicate the presence of type A-234 nerve agent in its virgin state and also products of its degradation.” End of quote.

I previously argued
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1974.msg150548.html#msg150548
that the bold section would NEVER be found in a scientific report, let alone one from Spiez to OPCW, since (among other issues) the information does not contain a source reference, and Spiez labs would never be able to conclude that text from the sample itself.

Now that we know that BZ precursors (but not BZ itself) were present in a control sample send to Spiez, even the italic section of Lavrov's "quote" of the Spiez report is shown to be a fabrication.

Not to mention that Spiez would make SEPARATE remarks about their findings in the control sample versus their findings in the real Salisbury samples. They would not glue them together with the last line of the quote : "Also, the samples indicate the presence of type A-234 nerve agent....".

So, knowing what we know now about what OPCW send to Spiez, it would be fair to state that Lavrov's supposed "quote" of the report what Spiez send back to OPCW was an utter and blatant lie.

Lavrov just fabricated that "quote" out of thin air.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2018, 06:44:34 AM by Rob Dekker »
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3890 on: April 19, 2018, 12:02:44 PM »
Neven might as well rename this thread "Russia, Russia, Russia" as it contains very little current information on Russiagate.
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Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3891 on: April 19, 2018, 02:13:16 PM »
Maybe that's not a bad idea, although there is a Putin thread somewhere as well. Now that we have a Mueller Investigation thread, things that are not specific to the collusion with Russia can go there. And if it is specific to the collusion Russia, it can go here, as well as there.

If someone disagrees, I can always change it back.
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Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #3892 on: April 19, 2018, 03:55:50 PM »
Neven might as well rename this thread "Russia, Russia, Russia" as it contains very little current information on Russiagate.
Why not just get back on topic and put other Russia-related stuff elsewhere? ? ? ?

oren

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #3893 on: April 19, 2018, 06:23:00 PM »
Or just lock the thread and start a new politics forum?  :P

Neven

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #3894 on: April 19, 2018, 07:54:43 PM »
I'm afraid people would start discussing politics in other threads. I set up this forum, so people would stop discussing politics (and other off-topic stuff) on the Blog.

Martin, it seems the topic has moved to the Mueller Investigation thread. Russiagate is related to Russia, and so can still be discussed here (or there).
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Martin Gisser

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #3895 on: April 20, 2018, 12:14:42 AM »
Martin, it seems the topic has moved to the Mueller Investigation thread. Russiagate is related to Russia, and so can still be discussed here (or there).
Methinks that's nonsense, esp. now that Mueller is having Cohen, one of Trump's major Russia connectors (allegedly)... But I don't care much. I'm again fed up with discussions here. Could as well have it on Facebook, where the Putinophiles in the circle aren't that weird (yet, Hillaryphobes are even nuttier).

Winter is over. Time to focus on gardening and the sea ice melt race.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2018, 01:35:52 AM by Martin Gisser »

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #3896 on: April 20, 2018, 01:47:21 AM »
More grit for the Russia Russia Russia mill:

Title: "Russia spread fake news via Twitter bots after Salisbury poisoning – analysis"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/19/russia-fake-news-salisbury-poisoning-twitter-bots-uk

Extract: "Propaganda from Russian-operated accounts grew by 4,000% in aftermath of attack, Whitehall says"
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sidd

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #3897 on: April 20, 2018, 06:51:04 AM »
A theory as to why the Skripals survived:

"Rink admitted in court in 2007 that he had sold four of the vials to someone named Ryabov, who had organized crime connections in 1994."

 “The final product, in storage, after one year is already losing 2%, 3%,” Mirzayanov said, “The next year more, and the next year more. In 10-15 years, it’s no longer effective.”

https://original.antiwar.com/porter/2018/04/18/an-alternative-explanation-to-the-skripal-mystery/

sidd

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #3898 on: April 20, 2018, 07:28:29 AM »
OPCW has been in Syria since Saturday, but still not allowed to investigate the sites in Douma.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/04/opcw-fact-finding-team-syria-douma-180418155208033.html

Yesterday the The United Nations Department of Safety and Security (UNDSS) got shot at when they attempted to visit the alleged chemical attack sites in Douma :

https://www.opcw.org/fileadmin/OPCW/EC/M-59/en/ecm59dg02_e_.pdf

Meanwhile, journalists have been visiting the main site that Bellingcat identified :
For example Swedish TV4 :
https://www.tv4play.se/program/nyheterna/3967012
and CBS :
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/syria-inside-douma-the-site-of-apparent-chemical-attack-2018-04-16/

The gas cylinder is still there on the roof....
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #3899 on: April 20, 2018, 07:43:35 AM »
A theory as to why the Skripals survived:

"Rink admitted in court in 2007 that he had sold four of the vials to someone named Ryabov, who had organized crime connections in 1994."

 “The final product, in storage, after one year is already losing 2%, 3%,” Mirzayanov said, “The next year more, and the next year more. In 10-15 years, it’s no longer effective.”

https://original.antiwar.com/porter/2018/04/18/an-alternative-explanation-to-the-skripal-mystery/

sidd

Nice try by antiwar.com, to blame the Skripal poisoning on a degraded form of Novichok obtained a long time ago by a "crime syndicate".

Let me remind all of us that the UK and the OPCW diagnosed this strain of Novichok as one “almost complete absence” of impurities.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/international-chemical-watchdog-backs-britains-findings-on-agent-used-to-poison-ex-russian-spy/2018/04/12/4a6687ca-3e2f-11e8-8d53-eba0ed2371cc_story.html?utm_term=.5b659e491ecf

So it likely did NOT come from an old feedstock.

Let me also note that antiwar.com is on the propornot list for a reason : for spreading Russian propaganda :
http://www.propornot.com/p/the-list.html
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