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Hefaistos

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4300 on: July 09, 2018, 09:31:10 PM »
...
It contains statements like this, which rely on environmental samples, and biomedical samples taken :

Quote
“The analyses carried out by French experts on the environmental samples collected at one of the impact points of the chemical attack at Khan Sheikhoun on 4 April 2017 reveal the presence of sarin, of a specific secondary product (diisopropyl methylphosphonate – DIMP) formed during synthesis of sarin from isopropanol and DF (methylphosphonyl difluoride), and hexamine. Analysis of biomedical samples also shows that a victim of the Khan Sheikhoun attack, a sample of whose blood was taken in Syria on the very day of the attack, was exposed to sarin.”

Which contradicts your statements that "It contains no evidence, just allegations.".

Problem is, the French also didn't visit the attack site. They got samples from the jihadists and they just can't build a case on that basis as there is no chain of custody. I think Khan Sheikhoun was staged by the jihadists, but I'm not going to defend my point of view here. Just want to mention, that the jihadists have for the last 5 years had control of one of the sites that belonged to the governement's chemical weapons programmel. This is also mentioned in a number of OPCW reports, as OPCW has'nt been able to access that site. (Situation likely changed during the last year as the jihadists lost control of a lot of land and sites)

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4301 on: July 10, 2018, 08:03:13 AM »
Just want to mention, that the jihadists have for the last 5 years had control of one of the sites that belonged to the governement's chemical weapons programmel. This is also mentioned in a number of OPCW reports, as OPCW has'nt been able to access that site.

Which site would that be, and which OPCW reports mention it ?

Hefaistos

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4302 on: July 10, 2018, 01:31:33 PM »
Just want to mention, that the jihadists have for the last 5 years had control of one of the sites that belonged to the governement's chemical weapons programmel. This is also mentioned in a number of OPCW reports, as OPCW has'nt been able to access that site.

Which site would that be, and which OPCW reports mention it ?
I checked it up, and it's mentioned in all progress reports by OPCW. E.g. here is from the latest one, October 2017.

"6. Progress by the Syrian Arab Republic is as follows:
(a) The Secretariat has verified the destruction of 25 of the 27 chemical weapons
production facilities (CWPFs) declared by the Syrian Arab Republic
. During
the period under review, the Secretariat has continued the preparatory work to
carry out an initial inspection to confirm the current condition of the last two
stationary above-ground facilities."

Those two facilities have been under jihadist control since 2013, I believe. For some more detailed info I looked into the "OVERALL REPORT ON THE ELIMINATION OF THE SYRIAN CHEMICAL WEAPONS PROGRAMME" from 2014, and there they write:
"10. In accordance with subparagraph 2(c) of EC-M-33/DEC.1, the Secretariat was
requested to inspect, not later than 30 days after the adoption of the decision, all
declared facilities. By the target date, the Secretariat had been able to conduct on-site
inspections at 21 of 23 declared sites, with two sites being inaccessible due to safety
and security concerns.
The Secretariat was subsequently able to verify one of the
remaining two facilities through the use of remote verification methods, namely, the
use of sealed GPS1 cameras used by Syrian personnel, in accordance with the
guidance of the inspection team. The exact geographical location and the time the
footage/images were captured were then fully authenticated. The final site, which is
not under the control of the Government of the Syrian Arab Republic, has not been
inspected.
"

It's  also acknowledget, that jihadists conquered CW's from the government side during a battle in 2013.
The conclusion is pretty clear, as you can find the same info repeated in all OPCW reports during this time interval: Jihadists have CW's
https://www.opcw.org/special-sections/syria/related-official-documents/

Lurk

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4303 on: July 10, 2018, 02:53:53 PM »
There were also mass exodus of Syrian army personnel including senior officers in the first year of the uprising, and no one would necessarily know for certain if they procured CW stocks before joining the rebels/fsa/isis/jihadis etc. Therefore it's unknown but possible. Of course as per Hersh and others and the fact Obama didn't send in missiles over 2013 in Ghouta (?) etc., and other very strange actions by Turkey throughout this saga raises more than suspicions supportive of Hersh's reporting. No officials ever denied what he wrote - another telltale sign he was on the money then and many other allegations since then simply do not add up at all. especially sarin mixed in with chlorine. Chlorine is not an effective CW per se though it can be used for such purposes.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 03:13:48 PM by ASILurker »
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jacksmith4tx

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4304 on: July 11, 2018, 01:43:28 PM »
Here is a a good list of Trump-Russia activity.
https://www.justsecurity.org/58108/timeline-trumps-acts-accommodation-engagement-russia/

And here is the master list of all stuff Trump has been doing:
https://theweeklylist.org/
Science is a thought process, technology will change reality.

Lurk

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4305 on: July 11, 2018, 05:11:53 PM »
The final site, which is not under the control of the Government of the Syrian Arab Republic, has not been inspected.

fwiw those last two sites were both old "abandoned" sites used by syria in the past.

Jihadists have CW's - true. They are also murderers, torturers, target civilian sites, starve them, and blow up hospitals when it suits their purposes. They also have photos taken of their pre-teen children holding the heads of recent head chopping events in the town square. Other than that they are really nice people who wouldn't hurt a fly.

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"The history of the race, and each individual's experience, are thick with evidence that a truth is not hard to kill and that a lie told well is immortal." — Mark Twain

Lurk

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4306 on: July 12, 2018, 07:23:00 AM »
John Wight has written for a variety of newspapers and websites, including the Independent, Morning Star, Huffington Post, Counterpunch, London Progressive Journal, and Foreign Policy Journal.

OPCW findings regarding Douma nerve gas attack: Grim reading for Western ideologues

Quote
"One who deceives will always find those who allow themselves to be deceived," Niccolo Machiavelli wrote.

The famed Renaissance-era philosopher's sage words describe to a tee the allegation that Syrian forces attacked the city of Douma, 10km northeast of Damascus, with nerve gas on April 7, 2018.

Even more seriously, not to mention condemnatory, is the way this lie – fashioned by Salafi-jihadist extremists, who at the time were struggling to hang on in a part of the country they'd been occupying for the best part of seven years in the face of a determined campaign by the Syrian Arab Army with Russian support to liberate it – was allowed to take the West on a collision course with Russia, when the Trump administration, supported by France's Emmanuel Macron and Britain's Theresa May, decided to launch a missile strike against Syria on the back of it. 

Quote
The findings of the OPCW's interim report, produced on the back of its on-site investigation into allegations that a nerve gas attack took place in Douma on April 7, make grim reading for the army of morally bereft Western ideologues and their apologists who've made a career out of defending the indefensible. Or at least, that is, they should make grim reading.

To wit:

"The results show that no organophosphorous nerve agents or their degradation products [emphasis added] were detected in the environmental samples or in the plasma samples taken from alleged casualties."


Quote
It is interesting to ponder at this juncture how for neocons and assorted other regime-change Western extremists the world is reduced to a giant chessboard upon which non-Western nations, governments and peoples are no more than pieces to be moved around, removed and replaced at their whim. It suggests a Manichean worldview that has been lifted from those old B Western Hollywood movies – a cultural fare which has supplanted reality in the minds of people intoxicated with a sense of their own exceptionalism.

This exceptionalism has wrought, over the decades in which Western hegemony has held sway, more chaos, mayhem, carnage, and dislocation than any number of natural disasters.

It is why, just as the conflict in Vietnam was more than the sum of its parts in terms of its wider significance and importance, so it is with the conflict that's been raging in Syria in our time. This conflict is not and has never been primarily a civil war, or even a regional war. It has been and remains primarily an anti-imperialist struggle with the outcome assuming world-historical importance as a consequence. And, to be sure, this outcome is reflected in the vast ocean of propaganda, lies, untruths, and distortion that has been unleashed in support of regime change and military intervention.

Published by Evil Incorporated
https://www.rt.com/op-ed/432668-douma-syria-opcw-report/

Quote
Source Doc
This document contains an update on the work of the OPCW Fact-Finding Mission in Syria
(FFM) regarding the alleged use of toxic chemicals as a weapon in Douma, the Syrian Arab
Republic,  on  7  April  2018.
https://www.opcw.org/fileadmin/OPCW/S_series/2018/en/s-1645-2018_e_.pdf


2.5
The results of the analysis of the prioritised samples submitted to OPCW designated
laboratories were received by the FFM team on 22 May 2018. No organophosphorus
nerve agents or their degradation products were detected, either in the environmental
samples or in plasma samples from the alleged casualties. Various chlorinated organic
chemicals  were  found  in  samples  from  Locations  2  and  4,  along  with  residues  of 
explosive.  These  results  are  reported  in  Annex  3.  Work  by  the  team  to  establish  the  significance of these results is ongoing.

2.7
Work is ongoing to assess the association of these cylinders with the incident, the  relative  damage  to  the  cylinders  and  the  roofs,  and  how  the  cylinders  arrived  at their respective locations.

2.8
The  FFM  team  needs  to  continue  its  work  to  draw  final  conclusions  regarding  the 
alleged incident and, to this end, the investigation is ongoing.

Numbers of deaths confirmed to date by OPCW? ZERO

Quote
3.1
There  were  mixed  reports  of  what  toxic  chemicals  had  been  used,  with  some  citing  chlorine  and  others  citing  sarin,  or  mixtures of chlorine and sarin. Images and videos posted online showed casualties in a  residential  building  as  well  as  victims  being  treated  at  a  hospital,  reportedly  for  chemical  exposure.  Photos  and  videos  of  cylinders  allegedly  used  in  the  two  attacks  were also posted online. 
Chlorine and Sarin do not go together - the former destroys the latter on contact. Feel free to go check the OPCW reports of the numbers of times that "reports by headchoppers" claim that chlorine and sarin (organophosphorus nerve agents) are present in the very same place - even in ground craters and from yellow cylinders.

It's all mostly BS.

Meanwhile how is it that the OPCW can go anywhere in Syrian held territory, but they are to scared to go to places like Khan Sheikhoun where headchoppers are claiming the CW agent SARIN was used - and delivered by SU-25 fighters in military munitions - as opposed to yellow gas cylinders - what a find that would have been for the OPCW to get their hands on the remnants of air to ground munitions containing clear evidence of Sarin Gas.

Why would the headchoppers not welcome and protect the OPCW so they could take samples, investigate the location thoroughly, and interview all the locals there near the site of all these alleged SARIN CW attacks?

I could could take a stab at it. :)

 
« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 11:23:21 AM by ASILurker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4307 on: July 12, 2018, 09:01:17 AM »
The final site, which is not under the control of the Government of the Syrian Arab Republic, has not been inspected."

So the Syrian government (allegedly) destroyed all the chemical weapons sites they control.
But not that last one that they don't control.

Somehow it did not occur to them that maybe they should destroy that site too ?

Even though they and their Russian friends bombed countless hospitals, mosques and schools in rebel-controlled areas, for some obscure reason they did not bomb that one rebel-controlled chemical weapons facility ?

And either way, exactly WHERE is that mysterious last chemical weapons site ?

Lurk

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4308 on: July 12, 2018, 10:16:35 AM »
You have a choice of options Rob.

You can keep reading Eliot Higgins the Troll and Spinner of Yarns, or you could go read the OPCW reports and the declaration made by Syria in 2013. All the answers you are asking for are in the latter. Go on, try it. :)

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"The history of the race, and each individual's experience, are thick with evidence that a truth is not hard to kill and that a lie told well is immortal." — Mark Twain

Hefaistos

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4309 on: July 12, 2018, 11:14:20 AM »

So the Syrian government (allegedly) destroyed all the chemical weapons sites they control.
But not that last one that they don't control.

Somehow it did not occur to them that maybe they should destroy that site too ?

Yeah, what-ist Rob.

Hefaistos

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4310 on: July 12, 2018, 12:11:19 PM »
Meanwhile how is it that the OPCW can go anywhere in Syrian held territory, but they are to scared to go to places like Khan Sheikhoun where headchoppers are claiming the CW agent SARIN was used ...

The alleged chemical weapons attack at Douma has been thoroughly investigated by international experts at OPCW. They found zero evidence of CW's.
Isn't the main take-away from this, that the White Helmets are now proven to be actors in a chemical weapons theatre staged by jihadists?
« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 12:16:27 PM by Hefaistos »

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4311 on: July 13, 2018, 10:14:29 AM »
You have a choice of options Rob.

You can keep reading Eliot Higgins the Troll and Spinner of Yarns, or you could go read the OPCW reports and the declaration made by Syria in 2013. All the answers you are asking for are in the latter. Go on, try it. :)

Either you don't know where that last chemical weapons site is either, or you do know, but you don't want to tell us (supported by a link).

Either way you are not being transparent.

P.S. Regarding Eliot Higgins and Bellingcat :
Even OPCW itself is now looking for an expert in 'open source' research :
https://twitter.com/OPCW/status/1017468737186861056
Seems like you are looking your battle against open source journalism.

Lurk

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4312 on: July 13, 2018, 10:40:28 AM »
Rob a link to the OPCW has been provided. The last thing I am motivated to do is make it even easier for you. Every other attempt to help you "look" at the facts and whole context has been a failure. My time is too important to me to allow you to repeatedly waste it.

Besides you do not need a link. I found the information without anyone holding my hand. It's easy. Think. :)
« Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 11:00:26 AM by ASILurker »
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Lurk

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4313 on: July 13, 2018, 11:45:26 AM »
FIFA President Infantino hails Russia's World Cup as 'best ever' !

Bugger.

The England Team manager said basically the same. First class event from start to finish. Safe. Enjoyable. Great facilities. Lovely people.
Previously known as  ASILurker - sorry should have said that before
"The history of the race, and each individual's experience, are thick with evidence that a truth is not hard to kill and that a lie told well is immortal." — Mark Twain

Neven

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4314 on: July 13, 2018, 07:30:21 PM »
From the Guardian (bolded mine):

Quote
Will the World Cup finally change how Russia is portrayed?

“England fan shames British media,” was one of many headlines of a similar nature to appear in Kremlin-friendly news outlets in Russia over the past couple of weeks. The story referenced a tweet from England fan Matt Maybury, who on returning from a trip to the World Cup wanted to complain about the “clear propaganda against the Russian people” in the British media. Russia was an “absolutely class country”, he wrote, at odds with what the media had led him to believe.

The tweet went viral, and was covered by multiple Russian television stations and news websites as proof of the British media’s lies.

It is an accusation that has been heard frequently out here in Russia, both from travelling England fans and from Russian media and officials. Last week, the foreign ministry’s Maria Zakharova complained about a “Russophobic campaign” by British news outlets. As Eric Dier scored the winning penalty against Colombia, the commentator on Russian state television shouted: “Down with propaganda! Down with the British press who told their fans not to come!”

Certainly, the buildup to the tournament in much of our press was largely negative, focusing on hooligan worries and the current political situation. It is indeed a pity that while South American fans travelled to Russia by the tens of thousands, European and particularly England fans came to Russia in far smaller numbers than usual, especially given England’s unexpected run to the semi-finals.

So did the British media get Russia wrong? Well, perhaps a bit.

The fans who did come have been impressed by the positive atmosphere: the street parties, the surprisingly lax police presence, the good-natured welcome from the majority of Russians, and the hot weather and cheap beer.

Along with most Russians, I’ve been surprised by just how great the atmosphere has been, but I always expected Russia to put on an excellent World Cup. I was a Moscow correspondent for more than a decade, and have seen the city and country change beyond recognition in that time. I’ve been telling anyone who will listen for some time that most fans who came to Russia would be likely to have a great time.

That doesn’t mean that journalists should have ignored any of the negative issues around Russia, and nor should anyone be in any doubt that much of the World Cup bonhomie is likely to fade when the tournament leaves. But when I hear even some football journalists here for the first time expressing amazement that Moscow is a “normal place” that has nice restaurants and residents who don’t look like aliens; when friends at home who have happily travelled to genuinely dangerous parts of the world tell me they’re too nervous to come to Russia, I do wonder if us foreign correspondents could have done a better job of explaining the country.

The rest of the piece is about how it's not really the media's fault that the Russian people has been systematically dehumanized at the behest of one piece of the oligarchic pie. But that's okay, the first half of the article speaks for itself.

I'm sure we'll be successfully told what to think after the World Cup is over and the regular programme resumes.
Compare, compare, compare

TerryM

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4315 on: July 13, 2018, 08:05:48 PM »

I'm sure we'll be successfully told what to think after the World Cup is over and the regular programme resumes.
Success will depend on the gullibility of the audience.


We saw masked men marching under swastikas and wolf-angles and were told that they were freedom loving patriots.


We were shown children being hosed down by heroes protected by nothing more than their white helmets, and were told that this is what the aftermath of a chemical weapons attack looks like.


We saw a machine gunned cockpit and were told that the observer wasn't trained to identify machine gunned panels.


Perhaps we'd learn more by looking than by listening to the explanations?
Terry


Martin Gisser

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4316 on: July 13, 2018, 08:23:53 PM »
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jul/13/novichok-that-killed-woman-came-from-bottle-police-believe


UK news
Novichok that killed woman came from bottle, police believe
Object found in Amesbury home of Charlie Rowley held nerve agent, officers say

Police have found a bottle believed to have contained the novichok that killed Dawn Sturgess and poisoned Charlie Rowley in Wiltshire, Scotland Yard has announced.

(...)

In a statement, police said: “On Wednesday 11 July, a small bottle was recovered during searches of Charlie Rowley’s house in Amesbury.

“It was taken to the Defence, Science and Technology Laboratory at Porton Down, Wiltshire, for tests.

“Following those tests, scientists have now confirmed to us that the substance contained within the bottle is novichok. Further scientific tests will be carried out to try and establish whether it is from the same batch that contaminated Sergei and Yulia Skripal in March – this remains a main line of inquiry for police.

“Inquiries are under way to establish where the bottle came from and how it came to be in Charlie’s house.”

Sturgess died on Sunday in hospital. Rowley remains in hospital where he has regained consciousness.

(...)
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Susan Anderson

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4317 on: July 13, 2018, 08:29:18 PM »
‘Evil Has Won’: Pro-American Germans feel betrayed. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/13/opinion/trump-germany-transatlantic-alliance-russia.html

“An Amateur Boxer Up Against Muhammad Ali”: Washington Fears Trump Will Be No Match for Putin in Helsinki: Will the President’s Monday meeting with the Russian leader turn into a debacle of his own making? https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-trumps-washington/an-amateur-boxer-up-against-muhammad-ali-washington-fears-trump-will-be-no-match-for-putin-in-helsinki

12 Russian Agents Indicted in Mueller Investigation https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/13/us/politics/mueller-indictment-russian-intelligence-hacking.html

Quote
Rosenstein, the deputy attorney general, on Friday announced new charges against 12 Russian intelligence officers accused of hacking the Democratic National Committee, the Clinton presidential campaign and the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee. ... includes charges of conspiracy by the Russian intelligence officials against the United States, money laundering and attempts to break into state election boards and other government agencies.

“Free and fair elections are hard-fought and contentious, and there will always be adversaries who work to exacerbate domestic differences and try to confuse, divide and conquer us,” Mr. Rosenstein said in a statement. “So long as we are united in our commitment to the shared values enshrined in the Constitution, they will not succeed.”

Mr. Mueller has filed more than 100 criminal counts against 32 people and three companies. Among the people previously charged are fourteen Russians and three Trump associates who have already pleaded guilty.

Mr. Rosenstein said Friday’s indictment did not include any allegation that the Russian efforts succeeded in influencing the election results. The president’s lawyer, Rudolph W. Giuliani, said in a Twitter post that Friday’s indictment showed “no Americans are involved,” and he called on Mr. Mueller to end the inquiry. “The Russians are nailed,” he wrote.

Just hours before Mr. Rosenstein’s announcement, Mr. Trump said at a news conference in Ellesborough, England, that the special counsel’s investigation was impeding his efforts to get closer to Mr. Putin, and offered his latest attack on the inquiry.

“We do have a political problem where, you know, in the United States, we have this stupidity going on — pure stupidity,” the president said. “It makes it very hard to do something with Russia. Anything you do, it’s always going to be, ‘Oh, Russia, he loves Russia.’ I love the United States, but I love getting along with Russia. And China. And other countries.”

United States intelligence officials concluded in a January 2017 report that Russia had created a sophisticated hacking campaign to influence the 2016 election. .... on July 27, 2016, Russian hackers tried for the first time to break into the servers used by Mrs. Clinton’s personal offices.

“Conspirators attempted after hours to spearphish for the first time email accounts at a domain hosted by a third party provider and used by Clinton’s personal office,” the indictment said. Around the same time, according to the indictment, the hackers targeted 76 Clinton campaign email accounts.

Most of the Russian intelligence officials charged in Friday’s indictment worked for the Russian military intelligence agency, known as the G.R.U. According to the indictment, the conspirators used a variety of currencies for its financial network. But the Russians principally sought to use Bitcoin to fund their work, including the purchase of servers and domain names.

Relying on Bitcoin, the indictment said, allowed the Russians “to avoid direct relationships with traditional financial institutions” — that is, banks that typically want to know details about their customers.

The hackers also sought to create their own money by “mining” Bitcoins, the indictment said. The virtual currency is created by using dedicated computers to perform complex calculations that eventually yield new bitcoins. Among the items bought with Bitcoin mined by hackers was the domain dcleaks.com, the indictment said.

“The pool of Bitcoin generated from the GRU’s mining activity was used, for example, to pay a Romanian company to register the domain dcleaks.com through a payment processing company located in the United States,” the indictment said.

It was also made clear that Assange was part of the rolling out of these leaks.

Susan Anderson

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4318 on: July 13, 2018, 09:38:02 PM »
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-russia-could-steal-the-midterms/

The Moscow Midterms
How Russia could steal our next election.

Lurk

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4319 on: July 14, 2018, 05:38:20 AM »
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jul/13/novichok-that-killed-woman-came-from-bottle-police-believe


UK news
Novichok that killed woman came from bottle, police believe
Object found in Amesbury home of Charlie Rowley held nerve agent, officers say


Maybe they have accidentally found the Skripals attempted murderers then. A couple of low grade crims in the backwaters of Amesbury. No wonder it wasn't a successful attempt but a botched one by a couple of dumb incompetents? Now all they need to do is find out who "hired" them. If I was in Scotland Yard I'd purview their computers and the dark web for answers.  But I am not and besides, I don't even care.

Apparently the NSA knows everything that goes on online, so why not ask them? (if you can trust them that is - Snowdon sure doesn't.)
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Lurk

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4320 on: July 14, 2018, 05:44:29 AM »
‘Evil Has Won’: Pro-American Germans feel betrayed. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/13/opinion/trump-germany-transatlantic-alliance-russia.html

“An Amateur Boxer Up Against Muhammad Ali”: Washington Fears Trump Will Be No Match for Putin in Helsinki: Will the President’s Monday meeting with the Russian leader turn into a debacle of his own making? https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-trumps-washington/an-amateur-boxer-up-against-muhammad-ali-washington-fears-trump-will-be-no-match-for-putin-in-helsinki

12 Russian Agents Indicted in Mueller Investigation https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/13/us/politics/mueller-indictment-russian-intelligence-hacking.html

It was also made clear that Assange was part of the rolling out of these leaks.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-russia-could-steal-the-midterms/

The Moscow Midterms
How Russia could steal our next election.


Show me the evidence. You know - the evidence no one has seen or tested. 
« Last Edit: July 14, 2018, 02:10:39 PM by ASILurker »
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Lurk

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4321 on: July 14, 2018, 08:11:50 AM »
Larry King may be showing his age (I hope he's ok)



Lavrov on one-on-one between Trump and Putin with interpreters only:

"That's what the American's proposed and being a polite people we agreed." :)
« Last Edit: July 14, 2018, 08:24:42 AM by ASILurker »
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4322 on: July 14, 2018, 09:14:48 AM »
Is Russia the real winner of World Cup 2018? By Steve Rosenberg BBC News, Moscow, 5 hours ago
"
As the World Cup ends, the challenge for the Kremlin will be to convert a short-term PR success into long-term diplomatic gains.

Much will depend on the wider geopolitical game Russia is currently playing. And here, too, it appears President Putin is winning.

On Monday he meets Donald Trump for a summit in Helsinki: with Russia under western sanctions, that is a diplomatic coup for Moscow.
"

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4323 on: July 14, 2018, 11:12:41 AM »
I think this is a good dialogue we don't see enough of:

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Lurk

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4324 on: July 14, 2018, 04:31:05 PM »
On complex issues like intelligence, political intrigue and internet security or security in general I'd certainly be leaning toward the credibility and experience of an Michael Isikoff and listening to what he had to say more than an Aaron Mate. Though nothing wrong in being skeptical about those you already know have lied to you previously.

The Indictment brings up a few curiosities for me. Despite US Officials already acknowledging that Republican institutions were also allegedly hacked, plus others in early 2016, then it's odd that only the Democrat party "victims" are included in this DoJ indictment.

It's fascinating how the Indictment is able to claim they know which user by name in the GRU office did specific key word phrase searches and exactly when. As well as claiming to be able to track hundreds of Bitcoin transactions remotely back to specific email addresses used by the named GRU operatives. That's some feat! 

If one is to accept the naming of individuals and who did what and when from inside the GRU is correct then this raises the level of sophistication of the NSA / CIA to gain access inside GRU operations to a level far superior than even alien level technological skill. Either that or there is more than one well hidden Mole inside the Kremlin and GRU / Military Ops.

That being said I can think of several plausible responses to the hard queries put to Aaron by Michael Isikoff. I do not know what Isikoff knows that I and the rest of us do not but he seems extremely confident to a point of great personal excitement.

That being said there is much in the DoJ indictment that is not new. Far from it. If you're into knowing more about the background state of play of hacking allegations / evidence against Russia there's a lot out there, but this report by ESET might make it easier as a one stop shop.
En Route with Sednit part 2 of 3
https://www.welivesecurity.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/eset-sednit-part-2.pdf

Check these articles out if you haven't read them (and do check the refs) - but keep an open mind as well. In date order
https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2016/06/russians_hackin.html
https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2016/07/russian_hack_of.html
https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2017/06/nsa_document_ou.html
https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2017/09/russian_hacking.html

Worth keeping in touch and reading their archives and the comments from others. Schneier is no snow flake when it comes to internet security & privacy issues.
https://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram/

To me this info arising from details provided in the Indictment was also fascinating:
Domain Name: linuxkrnl.net Delete Date: 8-22-2017(EST)
https://www.miduobao.com/viewdomain.php?domain=linuxkrnl.net
https://hackers.town/@thegibson/100369048248075574
linuxkrnl.net. last checked: Thu, 25 May 2017 01:42:32 GMT robtex
http://domain-kb.com/www/linuxkrnl.net     Navitel Rusconnect Ltd
https://twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1017862315314696194/photo/1
The Dark Tangent  @thedarktangent 20h20 hours ago
[searching logs for connections to http://linuxkrnl.net ]

'The Intercept' jumps onboard
https://theintercept.com/2018/07/13/indictment-of-russian-intelligence-operatives-should-quell-harebrained-conspiracy-theories-on-dnc-hack/
....................

While you're trying to parse all that don't forget what Snowdon was doing his best to expose because it has not stopped - and Angela Merkle et al did have their phones tapped by the NSA. But Bill & Hillary's private 'insecure' email servers were never compromised by Russia all the time she was the SoS.

Quote
How the NSA Threatens National Security
    Bruce Schneier,     The Atlantic,     January 6, 2014
 First and foremost, the surveillance state is robust. It is robust politically, legally, and technically. I can name three different NSA programs to collect Gmail user data. These programs are based on three different technical eavesdropping capabilities. They rely on three different legal authorities. They involve collaborations with three different companies. And this is just Gmail. The same is true for cell phone call records, Internet chats, cell-phone location data.

Second, the NSA continues to lie about its capabilities. It hides behind tortured interpretations of words like "collect," "incidentally," "target," and "directed." It cloaks programs in multiple code names to obscure their full extent and capabilities. Officials testify that a particular surveillance activity is not done under one particular program or authority, conveniently omitting that it is done under some other program or authority.

Third, U.S. government surveillance is not just about the NSA. The Snowden documents have given us extraordinary details about the NSA's activities, but we now know that the CIA, NRO, FBI, DEA, and local police all engage in ubiquitous surveillance using the same sorts of eavesdropping tools, and that they regularly share information with each other.

https://www.schneier.com/essays/archives/2014/01/how_the_nsa_threaten.html

Maybe Russia and every other nation doesn't really have a choice today but to exploit everything they possibly can just to survive and/or try to keep up? I don't know as I am a nobody (by choice.)
« Last Edit: July 14, 2018, 05:50:14 PM by ASILurker »
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4325 on: July 15, 2018, 09:08:50 AM »
Mueller's latest indictment confirms that Rich was not the source of the leaked Wikileaks emails.

Title: "The new Mueller indictments should definitively put the Seth Rich conspiracy to rest"

https://www.vox.com/2018/7/13/17568840/russia-trump-seth-rich-conspiracy-mueller-indictments

Extract: "But it probably won’t, because let’s face it, conspiracy theories never end."
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Martin Gisser

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4326 on: July 15, 2018, 08:25:59 PM »
I think this is a good dialogue we don't see enough of:
What dialogue? The poor lad got his arse handed to him by Isikoff.
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4327 on: July 15, 2018, 08:53:09 PM »
There are several possible interpretations, but at least they're talking about it. Maté has a very strong point that it's not good journalism to so uncritically accept narratives, when there clearly is a battle going on between different oligarchic factions that use the people as a pawn.

One question I would've liked to see Maté ask, is that if intelligence agencies are so fantastically smart that they can pinpoint by name who has allegedly hacked the DNC servers (still zero evidence for it, as Ishikoff admits, but his argument is that there are no whistleblowers and so it must be true), why can't these intelligence agencies produce even one communication between the stupid Trump campaign and the 'Russians', that proves collusion (is that word even used anymore?).

But never mind. I won't let myself be progandised into choosing a team. I wish more journalists would have the same mindset.
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Martin Gisser

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4328 on: July 15, 2018, 09:40:53 PM »
Maté is a "skeptic". As in "climate skeptic". The parallels are quite striking. (How can science be so fantastically smart? Etc. etc. etc.) Even his smug demeanor.

(still zero evidence for it, as Ishikoff admits, but his argument is that there are no whistleblowers and so it must be true)
I didn't note that. But I won't watch again. Isikoff is not that stupid.
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Neven

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4329 on: July 15, 2018, 10:07:24 PM »
I didn't note that. But I won't watch again. Isikoff is not that stupid.

No, he's definitely not that stupid. I mean, if I've understood correctly, he didn't buy the Iraq-WMD story. But maybe he would have if Clinton or Obama had been president.

I'm glad to hear that you trust American intelligence agencies as much as you do climate scientists. The propaganda seems to work flawlessly. Have you tried to replicate their work like you can that of climate scientists?

Imagine climate scientists saying: AGW is real, just trust us. Would you stand for that? It seems climate risk deniers have been successful at one thing: Completely delegitimizing the word 'skeptic'.

Please, don't use stupid analogies. Maté isn't saying that the Russians are innocent. He's just saying that there is still no conclusive evidence, only a chorus of self-reinforcing and inter-referring voices (intelligence, media, politicians), and that history shows that political motives are known to distort the truth in similar cases. These are all games that are played by the powerful, and they're trying to use powerless people like you and me to do their handiwork.

Russia trying to influence elections, like every country is doing, especially the US, is not worth all this hysteria. The collusion is interesting, but the NSA only seems to be capable of spying on evil GRU geniuses, but not stupid, sloppy, lying Trump. The corruption is most interesting of all, but as everyone is corrupt in DC, I supposed we won't be hearing much about that either (are the Podesta boys in jail yet). All we'll get, is well-timed news flashes that get the froth going.
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Martin Gisser

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4330 on: July 15, 2018, 10:26:11 PM »
I didn't note that. But I won't watch again. Isikoff is not that stupid.

No, he's definitely not that stupid. I mean, if I've understood correctly, he didn't buy the Iraq-WMD story. But maybe he would have if Clinton or Obama had been president.

I'm glad to hear that you trust American intelligence agencies as much as you do climate scientists.
I didn't trust "them" with the Iraq-WMD story after Powell's UN presentation, which clearly was bullshit. That story is actually more due to Bush et al who pressed hard for the intelligence agencies to come up with some stuff. This is an entirely different ballpark.

In the Russia case I trust them
1) because the story is consistent with publically available evidence. Isikoff also tried to explain that - he wrote a book about it.
2) I know how to wield Occam's Razor.
3) The classified evidence was reviewed by a grand jury. That is the first sentence of the indictment: "The Grand Jury for the District of Columbia charges:"
4) Any other "theory" I heard is paranoid conspiracy stuff - or simply smells like denialism.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2018, 10:39:22 PM by Martin Gisser »
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4331 on: July 15, 2018, 10:57:34 PM »
2) I know how to wield Occam's Razor.

In that case you'll probably know that Trump has become president because the American people is suffering and is fed up with being screwed over by both parties that only serve big money interests, as exemplified by the only presidential candidate who could be beaten by Trump.

If Russian meddling gets your panties in a knot, it's maybe time to read a couple of history books. And ask Angela Merkel who was tapping her phone, while you're at it (but somehow it was impossible to tap the Trump campaign).

Russiagate/Russophobia is one big smokescreen to draw attention away from the real issues, regardless of what Russia has or hasn't done. To return to your analogy: If only AGW would get this much attention!

I'm unnotifying again. I'll report back if I see or read something I find interesting.
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4332 on: July 16, 2018, 12:03:22 AM »
2) I know how to wield Occam's Razor.

In that case you'll probably know that Trump has become president because the American people is suffering and is fed up with being screwed over by both parties that only serve big money interests, as exemplified by the only presidential candidate who could be beaten by Trump.
Oh yeah, yadda yadda yadda, and now The Stupid People get screwed over worse than ever... 

Self-maiming with Occam's Razor: Cut away Hillary, bright progressive voter, and voila, a great rationale for having a Donald Trump and his swamp. But everybody is corrupt anyway, so it doesn't matter. Heck, did I say stupid?

Quote
If Russian meddling gets your panties in a knot,
It doesn't. What about you? :)

Quote
it's maybe time to read a couple of history books. And ask Angela Merkel who was tapping her phone,
Whataboutism... A denialist classic from kindergarten to Hannity.

Quote
while you're at it (but somehow it was impossible to tap the Trump campaign).
Who knows?

Quote
Russiagate/Russophobia is one big smokescreen to draw attention away from the real issues,
This is conspirational ideation combined with whataboutism.

Quote
if I see or read something I find interesting.
You have made amply clear that Russiagte is not interesting. Except when a denier speaks up.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 12:16:29 AM by Martin Gisser »
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4333 on: July 16, 2018, 12:35:15 AM »
the NSA only seems to be capable of spying on evil GRU geniuses, but not stupid, sloppy, lying Trump.
We have to wait for later indictments. Mueller is working from the outside in, like in a mob case.

Meanwhile someone should remember the Dutch intelligence agency, who hacked a camera in Moscow... I guess that was very welcome material for the indictment.
https://www.volkskrant.nl/wetenschap/dutch-agencies-provide-crucial-intel-about-russia-s-interference-in-us-elections~b4f8111b/

Another thing yet unbeknownst to me is: What did the Estonians find? They had tapped some Russian communications in 2016.

The British (not just Steele) also had stuff in 2016. Who else?
Looks like a western-global conspiracy of the spooks... :)
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4334 on: July 16, 2018, 01:02:32 AM »

Neven

Thanks for the link, but it's hard to watch as Isikoff praises the integrity of the same Mueller team that so recently indicted a Russian entity that didn't even exist.


It's one thing to convince a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich. It's much more damning when it's discovered that there was no bread, no mustard, no ham, and that you have actually succeeded in indicting an entity that existed only in the fevered imaginings of the prosecutorial team.


Mueller is either incompetent, or he's been charged with producing evidence of an event that never occurred. That Isikoff chooses to believe someone who reinforces Isikoff's own conspiracy theory isn't difficult to believe, but echo chambers often have that effect.
Mueller was probably telling the truth when he said he was convinced of Saddam's possession of WMDs. That doesn't make him right, it just makes him a very poor arbiter of the truth.


Terry

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4335 on: July 16, 2018, 01:24:46 PM »
Media pushed memes:101

Share it repeat repeat repeat .... no facts no thinking necessary, just an ISP account.

We have to wait for later indictments. Mueller is working from the outside in, like in a mob case.


Occam's razor cuts both ways, so be careful when near the throat. :)
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4336 on: July 16, 2018, 02:49:36 PM »

Neven

Thanks for the link, but it's hard to watch as Isikoff praises the integrity of the same Mueller team that so recently indicted a Russian entity that didn't even exist.


It's one thing to convince a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich. It's much more damning when it's discovered that there was no bread, no mustard, no ham, and that you have actually succeeded in indicting an entity that existed only in the fevered imaginings of the prosecutorial team.


Mueller is either incompetent, or he's been charged with producing evidence of an event that never occurred. That Isikoff chooses to believe someone who reinforces Isikoff's own conspiracy theory isn't difficult to believe, but echo chambers often have that effect.
Mueller was probably telling the truth when he said he was convinced of Saddam's possession of WMDs. That doesn't make him right, it just makes him a very poor arbiter of the truth.


Terry

This is only valid if you take the words of the lawyer for Concord Management at face value.  This is his assertion, nobody else's.  We should be a tad more discerning.

There's little doubt that an organization called Concord Catering  was in operation.  The defense lawyer's assertion was that this organization did not exist as a "legal entity."  Obfuscation.  An organization does not have to be incorporated to be a defendant.

The matter was not reviewed by the court because the principals of Concord Catering overlap with Concord Management, and only Concord Management's lawyer was present.

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4337 on: July 16, 2018, 05:18:56 PM »
Demands that I reproduce evidence by people who continuously do their best to discredit and/or ignore facts they don't agree with will mostly not be answered. Attempts to dominate are not facts, they resemble trolling. But that's not why I came here. This is.

Quote
WikiLeaks’ administrators, including Julian Assange, its founder, did not know what was in the trove — they were simply seeking anything that would widen the divisions inside the party between supporters of Hillary Clinton and those of Bernie Sanders, the Vermont senator who had also sought the nomination
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/15/us/politics/guccifer-russia-mueller.html

In this they were entirely successful with enough people to help swing the election, a disaster for the climate and for the world. The New York Times is one of the best and most honest reporting organizations in the United States.

Neven, you are becoming more extreme in your insistence that you know better than anyone else what is going on in my world. In the US, politics is partly local. Elsewhere, you asked a question and I provided a detailed and informative answer (Ocasio-Cortez Bronx election), and you used that to once again assert that you know best what is going on, and that I *must* conform. What I am writing here, I acknowledge, is an exaggeration.

I am frustrated and irritated that one of the cliques here that won't acknowledge that there are all kinds of people in the world, in a wide spectrum, and that progress needs to include more than the 1% who are entirely convinced that mainstream Democrats are evil and the ruling party, Republicans, irrelevant and/or innocent. We need to get rid of Republicans who are in the minority and have seized all three branches of government and are ruling as a one-party government, becoming more dangerous by the day.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 05:26:38 PM by Susan Anderson »

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4338 on: July 16, 2018, 11:24:40 PM »
I hadn't expected to run into something interesting and Russia-related, but here it is. I dare everyone here to provide something similar from mainstream media that is just as good, both in width and depth (and a beard that looks as good as it does on Paul Jay, America's finest interviewer):



Signing out again.

Edit: Just watched a couple of CNN clips on the same subject. Wow, it's like watching monkeys who ate too much fermented fruit. Lots of emotion, very little thought, and of course, and plenty of exceptionalist nationalism and Hollywoodesque one-liners ('tell that thug he needs to keep out of the greatest democracy in the world'  :D).

How people with a brain can actually identify with that kind of thinking will always be beyond me...   ::)

Signing out again.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 11:47:12 PM by Neven »
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4339 on: July 16, 2018, 11:46:24 PM »
I hadn't expected to run into something interesting and Russia-related, but here it is. I dare everyone here to provide something similar from mainstream media that is just as good, both in width and depth (and a beard that looks as good as it does on Paul Jay, America's finest interviewer):



Signing out again.

Wtv.  Happy platitudes, Europe is the foe, Putin is the friend, the fault is with the "fake" news, no record of what was really discussed . Awesome outcome. Let's go forth and sing kumbaya. Trump will solve everything, because the people have spoken.

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4340 on: July 16, 2018, 11:51:29 PM »
Wtv.  Happy platitudes, Europe is the foe, Putin is the friend, the fault is with the "fake" news, no record of what was really discussed . Awesome outcome. Let's go forth and sing kumbaya. Trump will solve everything, because the people have spoken.

None of that is being said. Why don't you try and watch it? It's really interesting and thought-provoking, even if you may not like certain parts.

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4341 on: July 17, 2018, 12:19:18 AM »
Russia, Russia, Russia!

Title: "The Justice Department just charged a Russian national with trying to infiltrate the NRA"

https://www.vox.com/2018/7/16/17577838/maria-butina-indictment-russia-spy-trump

Extract: "Just hours after President Trump’s press conference with Vladimir Putin, the Justice Department announced the arrest of a Russian national — Maria Butina — for secretly trying to influence US politics at Russia’s behest.

An affidavit filed by an FBI agent asserts that Butina tried to cozy up to a gun rights organization so she could influence a major political party, all the while working for a top Russian central bank official and trying to advance the interests of the Russian state — and not registering as a foreign agent.

Though the affidavit does not name many of the people and groups involved, previous reporting and context clues make it clear that the gun rights group is the National Rifle Organization, the party is the Republican Party, and the Russian official is Alexander Torshin.

The Butina case is not part of special counsel Robert Mueller’s probe — she was investigated by the FBI’s Washington field office and will be prosecuted by the US Attorney’s Office for the District of Columbia. Butina was arrested on Sunday (before Trump and Putin met)."
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DrTskoul

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4342 on: July 17, 2018, 12:37:25 AM »
Wtv.  Happy platitudes, Europe is the foe, Putin is the friend, the fault is with the "fake" news, no record of what was really discussed . Awesome outcome. Let's go forth and sing kumbaya. Trump will solve everything, because the people have spoken.

None of that is being said. Why don't you try and watch it? It's really interesting and thought-provoking, even if you may not like certain parts.

Good skills as interviewer, obvious biases. The big bad US vs the innocent Russia ...whitewashing some past there ?? Ex Soviet Union woes do not get to be swept under the carpet...
“You can know the name of a bird in all the languages of the world, but when you're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing whatever about the bird... So let's look at the bird and see what it's doing -- that's what counts.”
― Richard P. Feynman

DrTskoul

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4343 on: July 17, 2018, 12:46:14 AM »
Rise of authoritarianism surges everywhere. After 1000 years the role of prime minister disappears in Turkey. Increase powers given to president. Another president for life in the list. Trump must be jealous....
“You can know the name of a bird in all the languages of the world, but when you're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing whatever about the bird... So let's look at the bird and see what it's doing -- that's what counts.”
― Richard P. Feynman

jacksmith4tx

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4344 on: July 17, 2018, 01:36:09 AM »
Rise of authoritarianism surges everywhere.
We are already enslaved (addicted?) to technology so maybe that's the default human mode.
Science is a thought process, technology will change reality.

Lurk

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4345 on: July 17, 2018, 04:48:13 AM »
Demands that I reproduce evidence by people who continuously do their best to discredit and/or ignore facts they don't agree with will mostly not be answered. Attempts to dominate are not facts, they resemble trolling. But that's not why I came here. This is.
Quote
I am frustrated and irritated that one of the cliques here that won't acknowledge that there are all kinds of people in the world, in a wide spectrum, and that progress needs to include more than the 1%


What is this all about? Anyone know?
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 05:39:09 AM by ASILurker »
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"The history of the race, and each individual's experience, are thick with evidence that a truth is not hard to kill and that a lie told well is immortal." — Mark Twain

magnamentis

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4346 on: July 17, 2018, 04:52:24 AM »
Demands that I reproduce evidence by people who continuously do their best to discredit and/or ignore facts they don't agree with will mostly not be answered. Attempts to dominate are not facts, they resemble trolling. But that's not why I came here. This is.

What is this all about? Anyone know?

i think the details don't even matter, it's clear what she means and i agree with what she wants to say. since you've been a victim several times yourself you should be aware of what that is ;)
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Lurk

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4347 on: July 17, 2018, 05:41:37 AM »
It's beyond my comprehension.

And I prefer to not leap to assumptions when I have no idea what someone else is talking about, who they are talking about and dumping on, nor why.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 07:03:49 AM by ASILurker »
Previously known as  ASILurker - sorry should have said that before
"The history of the race, and each individual's experience, are thick with evidence that a truth is not hard to kill and that a lie told well is immortal." — Mark Twain

Lurk

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4348 on: July 17, 2018, 07:08:00 AM »
So the great summit comes and goes. The presser was funny and interesting at least. Especially the Mueller investigation parts, e.g. this bit https://youtu.be/XztfLtw4QgI?t=1h36m27s  Which continued as a topic all the way to the end. The beltway, the press and the think tanks will go ballistic over those suggestions by Putin.

Treaty Between the                       
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
and the RUSSIAN FEDERATION
Signed at Moscow June 17, 1999
https://www.state.gov/documents/organization/123676.pdf

But about the really important long term issues, did anyone notice the hand shakes? Not the normal Trump approach. :)
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 07:15:22 AM by ASILurker »
Previously known as  ASILurker - sorry should have said that before
"The history of the race, and each individual's experience, are thick with evidence that a truth is not hard to kill and that a lie told well is immortal." — Mark Twain

SteveMDFP

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4349 on: July 17, 2018, 08:03:44 AM »
The full text of the recent Mueller indictment against 12 Russian security agents can be found at this link:
https://d3i6fh83elv35t.cloudfront.net/static/2018/07/Muellerindictment.pdf

Alas, the pdf is presented as scanned images, so not text-searchable.

I find the specificity of many details to be impressive.  Many details haven't been covered in the news.  The pilfered data are not limited to e-mails.  Wholesale transfer of strategically important campaign documents also took place. 

Very interesting reading.