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Author Topic: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...  (Read 5522 times)

Sigmetnow

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #50 on: June 29, 2017, 01:35:45 AM »
Godot is the name of Musk's (first, slow) boring machine.

Elon Musk: No longer waiting for Godot. It has begun boring and just completed the first segment of tunnel in LA.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/880201464370442240
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #51 on: June 29, 2017, 09:11:33 PM »
What are Musk's top five traits? According to the study:

1. Intellect
2. Immoderation
3. Cautiousness
4. Emotionality
5. Altruism
http://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/29/ibm-watson-elon-musks-personality-traits-are-summed-up-by-this-image.html
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crandles

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #52 on: June 30, 2017, 01:19:50 PM »
I had thought that the principle cost in subways was the stations, not the tunnels. Is The Boring Company doing anything about that? It seems that their principle cost savings is from making smaller tunnels, and efficiencies from scale of digging a lot of tunnels.

The concept video, included in this article:
https://www.engadget.com/2017/04/28/elon-musk-wants-to-build-a-traffic-skipping-tunnel-utopia/
shows cars entering and exiting the tunnels using only a few parking spaces at street level.  No "stations" needed.  :)

All those lifts sound/look expensive to me. Either that or traffic jams trying to get to too small a number of entry points. But I know nothing compared to Musk.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #53 on: June 30, 2017, 01:42:08 PM »
Who thought Musk was kidding about this?  When he started tweeting about "floors" yesterday (”they never let you down") there was speculation about his mental state. ;D  Then this!
(Best guess is the tunnel is at SpaceX in Hawthorne, California, and runs under the street -- where several employees have been injured from cars running red lights -- to the SpaceX parking lot.)

Elon Musk: This is a really great floor.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/880682010133630976

GIFs at these links:
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/880675074231107584

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/880679414274691073


« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 01:50:48 PM by Sigmetnow »
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #54 on: June 30, 2017, 07:42:52 PM »
I had thought that the principle cost in subways was the stations, not the tunnels. Is The Boring Company doing anything about that? It seems that their principle cost savings is from making smaller tunnels, and efficiencies from scale of digging a lot of tunnels.

The concept video, included in this article:
https://www.engadget.com/2017/04/28/elon-musk-wants-to-build-a-traffic-skipping-tunnel-utopia/
shows cars entering and exiting the tunnels using only a few parking spaces at street level.  No "stations" needed.  :)

All those lifts sound/look expensive to me. Either that or traffic jams trying to get to too small a number of entry points. But I know nothing compared to Musk.

Remember, Musk has data on where all his cars are, and when. ;) (Did you notice that all the cars in the concept video's tunnel were Teslas?  ;D )

But seriously: because all the cars in the tunnels are on computer-controlled sleds, their spacing can quickly be adjusted to fit any number of merging vehicle sleds.  I imagine the program would be simpler than what SpaceX uses to get the Dragon capsule's orbit to safely approach the International Space Station.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2017, 12:21:36 AM by Sigmetnow »
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #55 on: July 20, 2017, 07:54:09 PM »
From the Hyperloop thread. :o

Wut?!? 

Elon Musk says he got 'verbal govt' approval for Hyperloop between NY and DC
Elon Musk says The Boring Co. has verbal government approval to build an underground Hyperloop.
The infrastructure and tunneling company would connect four Northeastern cities: New York, Washington, Philadelphia and Baltimore.
Musk plans to begin the East Coast project at the same time as his previously proposed Los Angeles tunneling venture.
http://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/20/elon-musk-says-he-got-verbal-govt-approval-for-hyperloop-between-ny-and-dc.html

The Tweet:
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/888053175155949572
(Enjoy the replies. ;D )
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #56 on: July 20, 2017, 08:23:27 PM »
From the same article...

Musk cautioned that there is "still a lot of work needed to receive formal approval," even while he is optimistic that a regulatory green light will be given quickly.

An Amtrak ride on the Northeast Regional line from Washington to New York currently takes three hours and 20 minutes,

Hyperloop, 29 minutes.

If Musk can pull this off it would be a huge game-changer.  I'd love to see his cost numbers. 

And the average boring speed for his drilling machines.  He talks about a dozen or so stations along the NYC to DC route.  Would Tesla use a number of machines and insert one (or two) at each station site?  A swarm of drills that could be extracted and reused could make digging one route fast.

Currently large drilling rigs finish their tunnel and then bury themselves in a permanent grave.  Tesla might take a more SpaceX 'recover and reuse' approach in order to greatly slash costs.

An advantage to smaller diameter tunnels is that the drilling rigs would be small enough to be trucked from site to site.  Put them (in sections) on a lowboy and 14' minimum underpasses would be no problem.

Very high speed subway.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #57 on: July 22, 2017, 03:27:47 AM »
Elon Musk: Discussing physics of tunnels with Mayor Vargas (who has a physics background). Hawthorne support for The Boring Company much appreciated.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/888541666122113024

More photos in the sub-tweet.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #58 on: July 25, 2017, 12:31:58 PM »
Elon Musk: Often comes as a surprise when people learn that 80% of my time is on engineering/design and just 20% on other stuff
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/889736220116254721

Why Elon Musk Spends 80 Percent of His Time on This 1 Activity
He is a designer at heart.

Elon Musk is doing right by design. Musk, who in a recent interview on Y Combinator, often called world's #1 start-up incubator, explained that he spends 80% of his time on engineering and design, developing next generation products, is what I call a designers' CEO.

Musk's optimism in the face of great odds (SpaceX, the company he founded "to revolutionize space technology," had a 10% chance of success at the onset); his belief that beauty is as important as usefulness of products (from the Tesla door handles to his more recent aspiration to bring aesthetics to SolarCity tiles); his strong sense of empathy for others (feeling for every parent who ever put a child's seats into a minivan whichled to Tesla's falcon wing doors); and the humanity with which he goes after what designers call "wicked problems" (i.e. multiplanetary habitation); make him if not a designer, a rare and much welcome enabler of ground-breaking design.
...
4. Understanding humans

Perhaps what makes Musk a designers' CEO most is his capacity for empathy. Empathy, the ability to put yourself in the shoes of others and feel their pain, is design's guiding principle. Everything that Musk does, from creating affordable solar energy to the Boring Company to bring cities closer to each other, are because he cares deeply about people. Musk is an advocate for people and aims to remove longstanding obstacles from our lives using design and engineering. ...
https://www.inc.com/ayse-birsel/why-elon-musk-spends-80-percent-of-his-time-on-thi.html
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #59 on: July 26, 2017, 12:43:06 PM »
Hawthorne, California.  SpaceX headquarters. ~15 second video:

Elon Musk: Testing The Boring Company car elevator:   https://www.instagram.com/p/BW_-mlYAMrs/

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/890096103135358982


By the way, SpaceX is also building a pedestrian bridge to alleviate the risk of crossing Crenshaw Boulevard there.
SpaceX constructs pedestrian bridge in response to traffic collisions
http://www.teslarati.com/spacex-bridge/

Edit: article:  https://electrek.co/2017/07/26/elon-musks-boring-company-new-car-elevator-tesla-model-s/
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 01:36:42 PM by Sigmetnow »
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #60 on: August 09, 2017, 02:25:45 AM »
Transcript of Boring Company meeting with Hawthorne city council about their test projects, explaining their safety procedures, including contacting all utilities, continual measurements for ground settling (they expect less than half an inch/13 mm), and continual tests for gas.  "They aim to have no impact at the surface by digging just about 20 feet (6 meters) in the ground" -- inspectors could not detect activity above the digging site.

Elon Musk’s Boring Company to use Tesla’s technology for its tunnel project under LA
https://electrek.co/2017/08/08/elon-musk-boring-company-tesla-tunnel/

From the comments: text of the transcript can be found here:
https://disq.us/url?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2FBoringCompany%2Fcomments%2F6rj3py%2Fhawthorne_city_council_special_meeting_on_the%2Fdl60p2a%2F%3ApJcMS-yrh-FIe7AvbzDCiiNhkDg&cuid=4193136
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ghoti

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #61 on: August 09, 2017, 04:09:43 PM »
I found it odd that he claimed no vibration would be felt just 20ish feet above at ground level. They've been digging a tunnel under downtown Ottawa the last few years deeper than that and there were many complaints of terrible vibrations in the buildings above. Different substrate and digging techniques but still seems over stated.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #62 on: August 09, 2017, 05:13:12 PM »
I found it odd that he claimed no vibration would be felt just 20ish feet above at ground level. They've been digging a tunnel under downtown Ottawa the last few years deeper than that and there were many complaints of terrible vibrations in the buildings above. Different substrate and digging techniques but still seems over stated.

Size of that tunnel?  Musk's tunnels are smaller than most.

From the Hawthorne Council meeting transcript:
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #63 on: August 09, 2017, 05:23:12 PM »
The Boring Company confirms that it will develop its own Hyperloop tech
Following closely on the heels of rumors that Elon Musk was pursuing development of his own Hyperloop technology, a spokesperson for the Musk-backed The Boring Company has confirmed plans to build a 600+mph high speed transportation system “aka Hyperloop”. In a statement to Wired, the spokesperson revealed that The Boring Company was indeed exploring the development of tunnels and related infrastructure that would allow for two different types of transport.

“At the Boring Company, we plan to build low-cost, fast-to-dig tunnels that will house new high-speed transportation systems. Most will be standard pressurized tunnels with electric skates going 125+ mph. For long-distance routes in straight lines, such as NY to DC, it will make sense to use pressurized pods in a depressurized tunnel to allow speeds up to approximately 600+ mph (aka Hyperloop).”
http://www.teslarati.com/elon-musk-the-boring-company-will-develop-hyperloop-technology/

When things are moving too slowly for you (or the planet)....
Although this will worry the existing hyperloop companies, it should reassure investors that Musk Means Business.  The odds of these new transportation systems becoming reality just received a major boost.  Get on board!  8)
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #64 on: August 09, 2017, 07:23:04 PM »
I want to hear some numbers on cost per mile and time to dig a mile of tunnel.  How long would it take to construct a NYC to DC tunnel? 

Sigmetnow

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #65 on: August 09, 2017, 11:31:18 PM »
I want to hear some numbers on cost per mile and time to dig a mile of tunnel.  How long would it take to construct a NYC to DC tunnel?

Their current testing in Hawthorne is for the purpose of learning how to dig safely, and to determine how they can improve the process -- and the boring machine itself -- and dig faster than Gary the Snail can move.  Even they don't have those numbers yet. ;)  You are asking for Boring Model S specs, while they are still trying to build the Roadster. :)
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #66 on: August 09, 2017, 11:55:51 PM »
I want the boring Model Y price and the Model 3  Ludicrous mode 0 to 60 time.

Greedy and impatient, I am....

Archimid

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #67 on: August 10, 2017, 02:48:47 AM »
I bet that boring machine will eventually be small enough to go to Mars. It will probably be mostly automated and with ridiculously low power requirements.  By finding a good use for a small and fast boring machine on Earth Elon can significantly reduce the cost and even make money developing the Mars Boring Machine.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 03:39:34 AM by Archimid »
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #68 on: August 10, 2017, 03:43:29 AM »
I bet that boring machine will eventually be small enough to go to Mars. It will probably be mostly automated and with ridiculously low power requirements.  By finding a good use for a small and fast boring machine on Earth Elon can significantly reduce, even make money, developing the Mars Boring Machine.

In a harsh environment it makes sense to go underground.  Solar panels on the surface.  Food production underground under lights.  Moderate heating/cooling needs. 

If there's a way to geo-engineer Mars so that it supports some sort of flora that's probably a very long term project, establishing a new atmosphere and that sort of thing. 

We may need boring machines here on Earth if we don't get our carbon act together.  We may evolve into mole people....

crandles

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #69 on: August 10, 2017, 10:03:32 AM »
Morlocks well before 802701 AD ?

Bob Wallace

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #70 on: August 10, 2017, 09:00:54 PM »
Boring has approached the Hawthorne city council to get permission to dig a two mile tunnel under a city street.  This would be the next step in testing out their boring machine.  And (while they didn't say anything) should provide a test tunnel for their car sleds or Hyperloop.  Cost and time to dig were not made public.

https://www.teslarati.com/boring-company-city-council-construction/

One end of the tunnel is very close to the Hawthorne airport and Tesla, SpaceX, and Boring headquarters.  If you extend the tunnel west you end up close to LA International.

And the beach.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #71 on: August 11, 2017, 03:42:25 AM »
Boring has approached the Hawthorne city council to get permission to dig a two mile tunnel under a city street.  This would be the next step in testing out their boring machine.  And (while they didn't say anything) should provide a test tunnel for their car sleds or Hyperloop.  Cost and time to dig were not made public.

https://www.teslarati.com/boring-company-city-council-construction/

One end of the tunnel is very close to the Hawthorne airport and Tesla, SpaceX, and Boring headquarters.  If you extend the tunnel west you end up close to LA International.

And the beach.

IIRC, they said something about 8 months.  Their philosophy is to "fail fast, fix fast" -- and they will assume all risks for any damage that might occur.
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crandles

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #72 on: August 11, 2017, 02:50:53 PM »
Boring has approached the Hawthorne city council to get permission to dig a two mile tunnel under a city street.  This would be the next step in testing out their boring machine.  And (while they didn't say anything) should provide a test tunnel for their car sleds or Hyperloop.  Cost and time to dig were not made public.

https://www.teslarati.com/boring-company-city-council-construction/

One end of the tunnel is very close to the Hawthorne airport and Tesla, SpaceX, and Boring headquarters.  If you extend the tunnel west you end up close to LA International.

And the beach.

IIRC, they said something about 8 months.  Their philosophy is to "fail fast, fix fast" -- and they will assume all risks for any damage that might occur.

Pretty good recall  ;)

Once we cross our property line and
go into the public right of way, we think it's
going to take us eight months to finish the
tunnel. We don't have a set tim will want to
test as quickly and as reliably as possible so
success will come quickly. We don't move
slowly, that's why we're here, and we will
continuously iterate. We like to failfast and
continuously improve. Success will come
very quickly. I think it will be, won't put an
exact timeline on it other than to say: it's
going to be very fast

>"And (while they didn't say anything) should provide a test tunnel for their car sleds or Hyperloop."

the way the concrete
segments are designed to basically make
them waterproof it's very easy to make them
a vacuum we could at some point in the
future, create a hyperloop out of this, but
that's not what we're testing in this tunnel is
it a potential idea sometime in the future,
sure But is that what we're doing now? no


Brett success at first will actually getting the
tunnel done, showing people that we can do
this. Success for the test portion of the
tunnel will be understanding the true
performance specifications and what the
machine can do. Understanding where we
can improve that for future tunnel boring
machines and future tunnelling projects, and
also laying the groundwork to prove the
technology that we're developing for the
skates Because we know it's going to
operate a little bit differently in a tunnel
verses on the street, so taking what we're
designing, some of which is proprietary; we
won't give away the secret sauce, then
proving that in the tunnel and showing that
we do it safely, reliably and for a significant
cost saving to traditional projects

and also test and
prove out the transportation system, so to
speak very quickly about how the
transportation system works and how we're
going to be testing in this tunnel is it's based
on Tesla technology. We all know about
autonomous driving and the capabilities
we've seen demonstrated in various videos.
We're going to be using that technology, but
instead of an enclosed Tesla, it's going to
be an electric skate, so imagine the
drivetrain of a Models with a flat platform on
top of it, where cars can drive on, turn off
and drive through the system. In this tunnel,
we won't be putting any cars. One of the
critical things to understand today is that
we'll be testing the skate, and we'll be
testing the technology. This is not meant to
be a tunnel that's inhabited by people, and
it's actually not meant to transport cars or
people through the tunnel. It is just a test
tunnel
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 03:20:03 PM by crandles »

crandles

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #73 on: August 11, 2017, 03:34:25 PM »
I thought it was surprising that there was very little discussion of:

a) how the machine was going to be altered if at all. If the boring front end was staying the same and they intend to add wall building automation behind it, perhaps that doesn't need going into such detail and possible proprietary information planning. However if they were going to do anything to improve the boring front end, I would have expected questions about this or assurances that they wouldn't make any such changes.

b) What happens afterwards. There seemed little to no discussion of how long development activities might continue in the tunnel or of whether there might ever be a requirement to refill the tunnel, or more likely maintain a register of the existence of the tunnel so that any utility that might want to plan some work would be able to find out details of exactly where the tunnel is. Perhaps there is already some system(s) that deals with that sort of thing, already accepted, such that no questions needed to be asked.

ghoti

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #74 on: August 11, 2017, 06:31:01 PM »
You seem to have very high expectations of a city council's power of foresight and insight. They mostly spend their time approving developer's projects. For them the most important words were "this won't cost you anything and might lead to great things in the future" "trust me"

crandles

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #75 on: August 11, 2017, 08:21:26 PM »
You seem to have very high expectations of a city council's power of foresight and insight. They mostly spend their time approving developer's projects. For them the most important words were "this won't cost you anything and might lead to great things in the future" "trust me"

Make that less of the "trust me", and more of the
The other thing we want to clear up is we are not
asking the city of Hawthorne to assume any
risk the Boring company is assuming that
risk if we break something, we will fix it.

Ken Feldman

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #76 on: August 11, 2017, 08:24:45 PM »
Tunnel boring machines typically make 50 to 60 feet per day on average.  They can mine 100+ feet on a good day, but there are often times that they are down for maintenance.  At typical rates, it would take 3 to 4 months to go a mile.  That's assuming everything goes well, which it typically doesn't on a tunneling job.  You also need to dig the pit to launch the tunneling machine, which can take several months.

Much of the vibration for tunneling comes from the small rail cars (called locos) that shuttle equipment, including the pre-cast concrete rings that line the tunnel as it is bored, from the launch pit to the cutter head.  It's somewhat deceptive to claim there is no vibration felt from a TBM unless you do the measurements when the conveyor belts bringing the dirt from the tunnel to the tail end of the TBM and the locos are running.

And tunnels are pretty expensive to drill.  A TBM will cost about $10 million and take about a year to build.  They are generally good for about 5 miles before needing a major overhaul in softer soils.  In hard rock, it would be much less.  And you have to pay the crews (assume two shifts per day), run the ventilation equipment, fuel for all of the machinery, etc... 

Basically, supplying the international space station in low earth orbit under government contracts is probably a less risky business venture than trying to build a hyperloop tunnel from New York City to Washington, DC.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #77 on: August 11, 2017, 08:48:11 PM »
Boring is boring much smaller diameter tunnels so feet per day averages from other tunnels won't apply.

If you look at the size of the Boring machine it wouldn't take months to dig an entry hole.  I'd say a short number of days.

crandles

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #78 on: August 11, 2017, 08:54:24 PM »
It's somewhat deceptive to claim there is no vibration felt from a TBM unless you do the measurements when the conveyor belts bringing the dirt from the tunnel to the tail end of the TBM and the locos are running.

It was kind of funny, a few days ago one of
your Public Works inspectors was actually
on-site at the tunneling to test noise, to
understand do you feel vibrations, do you
hear this machine when it's activate, we
stood at the back of the launch shaft and
waited until we saw the dirt coming out and
then we walked to the parking lot to where
we were standing over roughly where the
machine was going. You didn't hear it you
could put your hand on the parking lot, you
didn't feel the vibration and it was a 14 foot
(2.4m) machine spinning and chewing dirt
any other information we can provide, we'd
be very happy to provide. We still hope that
you'll come out as see it we'll do that same
test, you'll be standing above it running, the
dirt moving equipment that's on the lot and
the crane and the compressor that provides
air to the shaft, actually makes more noise
than the tunnel boring machine in it.

No mention of locos for transporting concrete wall sections, but seems conveyors were running. They seem quite up front about crane and compressor being noisier.

Not sure deceptive is the right word if they are saying about what happened and everything that was going on. But perhaps still slightly misleading if there is no mention of locos that are likely to be noisiest activity hearable/feelable above the drilling?

crandles

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #79 on: August 11, 2017, 09:17:42 PM »
Boring is boring much smaller diameter tunnels so feet per day averages from other tunnels won't apply.

If you look at the size of the Boring machine it wouldn't take months to dig an entry hole.  I'd say a short number of days.

From Wiki
As of February 2017, the company has begun digging a 30-foot-wide (9 m), 50-foot-long (15 m), and 15-foot-deep (4.6 m) testing trench

At the end of April 2017, a TBM was seen at SpaceX with the company's name on the side.

Given that they have already drilled to the edge of their property (350 feet), several months does seem a little excessive, I doubt they have proceeded as fast as they could if they were already fully knowledgeable about what they are doing and besides they have also done car elevator and doubtless other work.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #80 on: August 11, 2017, 10:37:20 PM »
Handy map.  :)  Green initial test tunnel has been completed.  Red is the 2-mile tunnel under discussion.

All of the above-ground work/noise/dust will be on SpaceX property, except for the system keeping an eye on earth-movement/-settlement/utilities -- which is already in place along the route.

https://electrek.co/2017/08/08/elon-musk-boring-company-tesla-tunnel/
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #81 on: August 12, 2017, 01:18:15 AM »
Just some crayon/lunch bag math.

226 miles from NYC to Washington DC.  1,193,280 feet.

Assume Boring can speed things up and average 100 feet per day that would mean 11,933 drilling days.  33 drilling years.

Or one year if they used 33 drilling rigs.  (66 since two tubes would be needed to "loop".)

These tunneling machines should be reusable unlike the monster ones that do their drilling and then bury themselves below the tunnel they've dug.

There's some interesting info about how Boring thinks they can lower cost and increase boring speed on this page...

https://www.boringcompany.com/faq/

I especially liked this bit -

In typical tunneling projects, excavated dirt is shipped offsite to disposal locations. This process is costly, time-consuming, noisy, and can be environmentally hazardous. The Boring Company is investigating technologies that will recycle the earth into useful bricks to be used to build structures. 

Ken Feldman

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #82 on: August 12, 2017, 02:07:12 AM »
Boring is boring much smaller diameter tunnels so feet per day averages from other tunnels won't apply.

If you look at the size of the Boring machine it wouldn't take months to dig an entry hole.  I'd say a short number of days.

From Wiki
As of February 2017, the company has begun digging a 30-foot-wide (9 m), 50-foot-long (15 m), and 15-foot-deep (4.6 m) testing trench

At the end of April 2017, a TBM was seen at SpaceX with the company's name on the side.

Given that they have already drilled to the edge of their property (350 feet), several months does seem a little excessive, I doubt they have proceeded as fast as they could if they were already fully knowledgeable about what they are doing and besides they have also done car elevator and doubtless other work.

They started work on the launch pit in January and installed the TBM in May.  That's four months just to get started.  Musk tweeted that the first segment of the tunnel was complete on June 29th.  There were no details about how long the segment was.  If we assume that it's the 350 feet you mention in the quote above, that's a month to go 350 feet, or 12 feet a day.  That's about right for a TBM and crew working up to speed on a new tunneling project.

In another another article, Boring's representative estimates that it will take 8 months to bore the 2 mile long test tunnel in Hawthorne. 

Horton also told the council members that the tunneling process, which should take just eight months, would prove the company can build “safely, reliably, and for significant cost savings to traditional tunneling projects.”

Sigmetnow

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #83 on: August 12, 2017, 02:18:47 AM »
"Table from bricks made after soil is removed during tunnel boring. #recycle #nowaste #cool #boring @TheBoringComp"
https://twitter.com/mayemusk/status/867809393311600640
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #84 on: August 12, 2017, 02:19:36 AM »
You're confusing digging their first entry pit with the speed they might be drilling tunnels once they've traveled a little way down the learning curve.

Musk thinks that once they've started 'for real' drilling they can go at least twice as fast as other tunnels are drilled. 

Is he right?  He usually is, he's got facts and does good math.  He's done pretty good with a whole bunch of projects (Paypal, Tesla, SpaceX).  He's got the money to bring smart people onboard to help him suss things out in addition to his own particular strengths.

Time will tell, but at this point in history betting against Musk is not a good idea.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #85 on: August 12, 2017, 02:56:15 AM »
Just some crayon/lunch bag math.

226 miles from NYC to Washington DC.  1,193,280 feet.

Assume Boring can speed things up and average 100 feet per day that would mean 11,933 drilling days.  33 drilling years.

Or one year if they used 33 drilling rigs.  (66 since two tubes would be needed to "loop".)

These tunneling machines should be reusable unlike the monster ones that do their drilling and then bury themselves below the tunnel they've dug.

<snip>

At first, that seems like too ridiculous a number of TBMs to even consider.  But once they've taken what they've learned from digging their test tunnels, and designed a new, faster-better-cheaper tunnel boring machine (“You know engineers, they love to change things,” ;) ), Musk’s newfound obsession with “The machine that builds the machine,” will take over and they’ll be building dozens of those puppies in no time.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #86 on: August 12, 2017, 03:04:40 AM »
I suspect that is correct.  Once they dig one tunnel system for a month/year then they can be hauled on a truck to a new site.  Properly designed they should be usable for many years by simply replacing the parts that wear out.

Drop a swarm of machines into one project.  Get it up and producing revenue in a year/whatever and move to the next project. 

etienne

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #87 on: August 12, 2017, 09:05:22 AM »
Just some crayon/lunch bag math.

226 miles from NYC to Washington DC.  1,193,280 feet.

Assume Boring can speed things up and average 100 feet per day that would mean 11,933 drilling days.  33 drilling years.

Or one year if they used 33 drilling rigs.  (66 since two tubes would be needed to "loop".)


All these miles don't have to be underground. It would be interesting to see the cost difference between the underground and the over the ground solution. Underground might be mainly interesting in urban areas.

This is a little bit like the Suez/Panama canal story. Suez was a success, but Panama took a long time to be finished and the initial company went bankrupt. Going along the coast is a good idea, I guess the crossing of the rocky mountains is for a far future.

crandles

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #88 on: August 12, 2017, 04:03:54 PM »
No mention of locos for transporting concrete wall sections, but seems conveyors were running. They seem quite up front about crane and compressor being noisier.

Not sure deceptive is the right word if they are saying about what happened and everything that was going on. But perhaps still slightly misleading if there is no mention of locos that are likely to be noisiest activity hearable/feelable above the drilling?

Maybe not so misleading:
https://www.boringcompany.com/faq/
Go electric. Current tunnel operations often include diesel locomotives. These can be replaced by electric vehicles

re: Increase TBM power. The machine’s power output can be tripled (while coupled with the appropriate upgrades in cooling systems).

What effect does tripling power have on speed?

« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 04:11:19 PM by crandles »

Sigmetnow

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #89 on: August 12, 2017, 06:08:03 PM »
To judge by the map in #80 above, the machines can dig in a fairly tight turn.  So, one entry-tunnel, in an out-of-the-way place, could start both a southbound tunnel segment and a second machine, after making a 180° turn, the northbound one.  The tunnel could progress in long "loops," not just straight lines.
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TerryM

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #90 on: August 12, 2017, 06:33:37 PM »
Just some crayon/lunch bag math.

226 miles from NYC to Washington DC.  1,193,280 feet.

Assume Boring can speed things up and average 100 feet per day that would mean 11,933 drilling days.  33 drilling years.

Or one year if they used 33 drilling rigs.  (66 since two tubes would be needed to "loop".)


All these miles don't have to be underground. It would be interesting to see the cost difference between the underground and the over the ground solution. Underground might be mainly interesting in urban areas.

This is a little bit like the Suez/Panama canal story. Suez was a success, but Panama took a long time to be finished and the initial company went bankrupt. Going along the coast is a good idea, I guess the crossing of the rocky mountains is for a far future.


I concur. It took decades to finish the Interstate Highway System because of holdups in California and Utah. When they were mining Iron Mountain on the California/Nevada border babies were being born with no brains. The town has been buried, but locals know better than to dig holes in that formation.


Terry

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #91 on: August 12, 2017, 06:35:53 PM »
What effect does tripling power have on speed?

My guess is that if the TBM (Tunnel Boring Machine) has more power it can use a more aggressive "bit" or push harder against the face of the bore in order to remove more material with each rotation. 

It also may be able to move more material per unit time from the face of the bore to the system that removes the dirt.

Did you pick up on what he says here -

A snail is effectively 14 times faster than a soft-soil TBM.  Our goal is to defeat the snail in a race.

I read that as Boring is setting a goal of going more than 14x as fast as current tunnel boring machines in soft soil.  If they can achieve anything like that then that would mean, using Ken's information of 50' to 60' average per day for typical tunneling, 700' to 1,000' (?) per day.

Something like that would be incredible.  A mile a week in soft soil. 

Musk is very hard to believe at times.  But he is landing rockets and reusing them among the other things he's talked about and delivered.


jai mitchell

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #92 on: August 12, 2017, 06:39:09 PM »

What effect does tripling power have on speed?

cubed root of 3
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crandles

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #93 on: August 12, 2017, 08:43:32 PM »
He plans to use a machine like this to test improvements in tunneling technology. He thinks that with more power, better materials, and a design that allows it to continue digging while installing the tunnel walls—a feat that’s impossible today—the Boring Company will be able to drastically reduce the price of digging. “To make it a little better should be easy,” he says. “To make it five times better is not crazy hard. To make it 10 times better is hard, but nobody will need to win a Nobel Prize. We don’t have to change the standard model of physics.”

As we walk through the machine, Musk and Davis pepper the tunnel’s project manager, Shane Yanagisawa, with questions. They ask about grouting materials and staffing, but mostly about speed. Yanagisawa says the limiting factor is muck. Nannie’s conveyor belts can carry only so much dirt at a time. The fastest he thinks the machine can possibly run is 75 millimeters per minute. In a typical week, it moves through 300 feet of clay.

Musk nods. “We’re trying to dramatically increase the tunneling speed,” he says. “We want to know what it would take to get to a mile a week? Could it be possible?”

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-02-16/elon-musk-is-really-boring

that dates to 16th Feb 2017

"A snail is effectively 14 times faster than a soft-soil TBM. Our goal is to defeat the snail in a race."
seems to be said around 17th May 2017

Isn't toning it down over those 3 months. Will be interesting to see if this mile a week continues to be the target and whether he gets anywhere close.

.

"cube root of 3" interesting is that forward speed increase? Why cube root? (I could understand square root as being 2 dimensions of tunnel being dug compared to direction of travel of the machine or some relationship between area of tunnel to area of earth being moved away.)

Bob Wallace

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #94 on: August 12, 2017, 09:37:11 PM »
I don't think we can make a lot of sense using the "cubic root of 3".

You can put a lot more power on the spinning end but if the bits can't hold up to the increased force or the dirt removal system can't remove the spoils fast enough then the additional power won't pay off.

Five times better would be a crazy improvement.  Fishing out my favorite colored crayon and redoing my math...

226 miles from NYC to Washington DC.  1,193,280 feet.

Assume Boring can speed things up and average 250 feet (5 x 50') per day that would mean 4,773 drilling days.  13 drilling years.

Or one year if they used 13 drilling rigs.  (26 since two tubes would be needed to "loop".)

Take Sigmet's idea and you need only 6-7 entry holes.  Each could serve four TBMs (two tunnels, north and south).  Surface disruption could be minimized.  Material delivery and spoils removal would be centralized for four TBMs.  They'd need only 6-7 big power drops to provide the needed electricity.

This is becoming so damned interesting....

Spoils removal.  "30" foot electric powered conveyor belts on wheels. Slightly inclined front to back so belt A dumps on belt B which, in turn, dumps on belt C.  As the TBM moves forward just add conveyor belt cars as needed.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #95 on: August 12, 2017, 10:35:24 PM »
"This is becoming so damned interesting...."

LOL.  I totally agree.  No wonder that Musk, even with everything else he has on his plate, couldn't just sit back and wait for someone else to move forward with this. ;D
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #96 on: August 13, 2017, 01:23:34 AM »
'Wish I had a billion dollars!   :P ::)
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #97 on: August 13, 2017, 06:32:17 PM »
'Wish I had a billion dollars!   :P ::)

Well, a billion dollars plus a mindset of: 

“I don’t care if you say it’s impossible.  We’re going to do it anyway.”

“Of course there’s a good chance we will fail.  But this needs to be done, for the planet.” 

“When you’re going through hell — keep going.”

“Anything beyond five years is infinity.”
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #98 on: August 13, 2017, 06:35:46 PM »
Yeah, okay. Thanks for the "reality check", Sigmetnow.
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Boring, boring ol' Elon Musk...
« Reply #99 on: August 13, 2017, 08:01:26 PM »
'Wish I had a billion dollars!   :P ::)

Well, a billion dollars plus a mindset of: 

“I don’t care if you say it’s impossible.  We’re going to do it anyway.”

“Of course there’s a good chance we will fail.  But this needs to be done, for the planet.” 

“When you’re going through hell — keep going.”

“Anything beyond five years is infinity.”

Or -

"Well, it does look impossible in terms of how it's been attempted before.  Let's take out a clean sheet of paper and see if we can imagine something that might work."

"Of course we might fail.  If we do we'll try to figure out how to not fail on our next attempt."

"When you're going through hell - keep going if heaven is right ahead."

"Infinity?  That brand may go extinct in five years if they don't develop a good EV."