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Author Topic: Solar wind storms effect on ICE?  (Read 1421 times)

mustangchef

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Solar wind storms effect on ICE?
« on: August 05, 2017, 04:45:08 PM »
Just wondering since we are experiencing a G2 right now  http://www.spaceweather.com
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Neven

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Re: Solar wind storms effect on ICE?
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2017, 06:06:43 PM »
The title is okay, but your opening post is lacking. I'll give you time until tomorrow to fatten it up a bit, with some links and texts from scientific papers, or an analysis/theory of your own. We also like pictures of graphs etc here.

If you're too lazy, I'll be closing this thread, and it will be the last time I'm doing so, as I have better things to do.
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mustangchef

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Re: Solar wind storms effect on ICE?
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2017, 04:28:28 PM »
I am a Chef...so lazy doesn’t work for me. Thank You anyways.
First off I want to pat myself on the back for being the first person on google to ask this question.We are directed right to this site when you type it in.
it seems water does react to electrical charges, which leads me to believe , Solar storms do  have an effect on the ice.   https://skullsinthestars.com/2011/05/27/water-has-properties-that-are-positively-electrifying/
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Jim Pettit

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Re: Solar wind storms effect on ICE?
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2017, 07:08:05 PM »
I am a Chef...so lazy doesn’t work for me. Thank You anyways.
First off I want to pat myself on the back for being the first person on google to ask this question.We are directed right to this site when you type it in.
it seems water does react to electrical charges, which leads me to believe , Solar storms do  have an effect on the ice.   https://skullsinthestars.com/2011/05/27/water-has-properties-that-are-positively-electrifying/

What type of effect do you imagine solar storms might have on terrestrial polar ice? We know form your linked blog post (and from 7th grade  physics) that a glass rod charged with static electricity can alter the trajectory of a thin stream of water trickling from a bathroom faucet. But that's a *long* way from stating that solar storms can materially affect meters-thick (Arctic) and kilometers-thick (Antarctic) ice.

We have occasionally had people stop by this forum to theorize that undetected (and usually unseen except to them alone) mechanisms other than overall warming are causing the long-term decrease in our planet's polar icecaps. Some are easily dismissed; others would take more effort and time to refute. In this case, I'd ask why is the polar ice at such low levels this year despite a very quiet sun?

magnamentis

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Re: Solar wind storms effect on ICE?
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2017, 11:31:55 AM »
add the word "significant" to your theory and there you have the answer.

beside the fact that every kind of interaction in the entire universe has an effect of some kind, while it remains to determine which and where, i think if you add the word significant to the word effect the answer is clearly "NO" it might have an effect like everything else has, but which effect that is and where it does apply is somehow of low relevance as long as the effect is not "significant" which i think is quite obvious considering the levels of energy needed to affect polar ice caps in general.

however, i still like the question and any discussion on such topics because however things are on the topic, there is usually something to learn for everyone who is not active directly in the field of science in question.

don't hesitate to continue and bring up further arguments and stuff, i'll read, consider and filter with pleasure and should by any means the discussion here end, there always remains PM for a further exchange.

plus what jim said ;)
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mustangchef

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Re: Solar wind storms effect on ICE?
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2017, 04:22:51 PM »
As I said Jim," I was wondering ". I’m asking . Ya , I am curious. I am here with a stirred imagination.. I figure there are a least a couple Ice geeks here that would attempt to answer some different questions. After all, if I am here, you would't expect me to be normal or something! Thank you.
I have some thoughts about Greenland i will share when ready.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 04:36:08 PM by mustangchef »
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mustangchef

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Re: Solar wind storms effect on ICE?
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2017, 04:26:19 PM »
Oh and by the way .. what is the oldest sea ice in the Arctic?
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Neven

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Re: Solar wind storms effect on ICE?
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2017, 05:53:59 PM »
Oh and by the way .. what is the oldest sea ice in the Arctic?

Melted.

Oh, sorry. That wasn't a riddle?  ;)

Influence of solar wind storms on Arctic sea ice loss? Direct effect: as good as zero. Indirect effect: I don't know, maybe 1%? Too small to measure, or it would've been done already.
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Coffee Drinker

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Re: Solar wind storms effect on ICE?
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2017, 02:28:18 AM »
Interesting from a scientific point of view but I doubt the effect has any practical implication in real life.

Would be a nice experiment to test in a cold chamber.


Archimid

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Re: Solar wind storms effect on ICE?
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2017, 03:38:00 AM »
Solar cycles have oscillated at about the same 11 year cycle for thousands (probably millions) of years. The variation is extremely small but it represents the same small negative and positive forcing at the same interval for eons.  Even a very small force if excerted for long enough can leave a memory in a system. That's why so many phenomena seem to follow that 11 year cycle. They are following the memory of solar cycles.

I believe CO2 induced warming is throwing us off that cycle into chaos. Solar cycles will establish themselves again after some thousands of years of the small positive and negative anomalies, but not in our lifetime.

I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

DavidR

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Re: Solar wind storms effect on ICE?
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2017, 05:49:06 AM »
Solar cycles have oscillated at about the same 11 year cycle for thousands (probably millions) of years.  ...
I believe CO2 induced warming is throwing us off that cycle into chaos...
The Solar Cycle link with global temperatures is well established with a variation of 0.1 to 0.15 degrees between the solar maximums (high)  and solar minimums (low) on average.  We are currently very close to the low point in the cycle.  2012 on the other hand was very close to  the top of the cycle and temperatures in the arctic were exceptionally warm that year over summer.

Perhaps the impact of the solar cycle is particularly evident in the arctic? The next solar cycle will peak around 2022 when the volume trend lines suggest we will be close to zero ice in summer.  As these coincide the likelihood of an sea-ice free arctic around that  time seems much  more likely.


Neven

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Re: Solar wind storms effect on ICE?
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2017, 10:40:20 AM »
Is there a link between SOlar Cycle and solar wind storms (the subject of this thread)? I'm sure the solar cycle has a (very) small effect, but as Archimid says, it is probably pretty constant.
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mustangchef

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Re: Solar wind storms effect on ICE?
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2017, 02:16:00 PM »
could the change in the Earths magnetic field due to a  solar storm have more to do with any change in ice?
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Jim Pettit

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Re: Solar wind storms effect on ICE?
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2017, 02:58:05 PM »
could the change in the Earths magnetic field due to a  solar storm have more to do with any change in ice?

Have more to do than what? Please don't be so cryptic; say what you mean...

DavidR

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Re: Solar wind storms effect on ICE?
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2017, 03:01:11 PM »
Is there a link between SOlar Cycle and solar wind storms (the subject of this thread)? I'm sure the solar cycle has a (very) small effect, but as Archimid says, it is probably pretty constant.

According to  NASA:
'During solar maximum, activity on the sun and the possibility of space weather effects on our terrestrial environment is higher'.
https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/sunearth/spaceweather/index.html

Apart from that NASA does not report any significant effects on global weather.

The storms are captured in the ice record allowing scientists to identify large storms in the past, but there seems no other observable effect has been  found.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/10/151026112106.htm

Questions like this should be asked on the Questions thread, where we should perhaps remove the epithet Stupid. 

MustangChef: Starting a thread without bringing any information to the table would seem to be in breach of forum decorum. 

« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 03:17:56 PM by DavidR »

mustangchef

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Re: Solar wind storms effect on ICE?
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2017, 03:35:25 AM »
Questions like this should be asked on the Questions thread, where we should perhaps remove the epithet Stupid. 

MustangChef: Starting a thread without bringing any information to the table would seem to be in breach of forum decorum. 
i understand and totally agree.
'stupid' makes the site seem pretentious.
 remove the Stupid and i will post questions there.
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Archimid

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Re: Solar wind storms effect on ICE?
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2017, 03:46:52 AM »
Stupid is not an insult.  Stupid is an incentive for people to let their inhibitions down and ask honest questions. I'm sure more that many great discoveries started out as stupid questions.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

Sterks

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Re: Solar wind storms effect on ICE?
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2017, 07:20:24 AM »
Everybody understands (or should) that "Stupid questions" is intended to encourage posting both "embarrassing" questions from sheer ignorance or more advanced questions.
If one's pride stops someone to put a question there, that would be stupid (no personal insult intended), because anyone posts there.

greatdying2

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Re: Solar wind storms effect on ICE?
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2017, 07:30:37 AM »
Stupid question: If I post here, does it mean I'm stupid?  :o 8)
The Permian–Triassic extinction event, a.k.a. the Great Dying, occurred about 250 million years ago and is the most severe known extinction event. Up to 96% of all marine species and 70% of terrestrial vertebrate species became extinct; it is also the only known mass extinction of insects.

Neven

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Re: Solar wind storms effect on ICE?
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2017, 12:02:48 PM »
It looks like this thread is dead, and it was never set up properly anyway (do better next time, or it will be the last time, mustangchef), so I'm locking it.
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