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sidd

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TerryM

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2017, 05:13:01 PM »
sidd
Glad that you've mentioned Operation Gladio. I'm unsure of how many Gladio victims are/were aware of just who their enemy is/was. The false flags they perpetrated/perpetrate were & are an affront to democracy.
It's just within the past few months that Langley admitted to having overthrown the democratically elected government of Iran, back in 1953, and installing their own torturing, murdering, puppet.


Did some statute of limitations pass? Since the perpetrators have long since past away, can't the institutions they labored for be charged, found guilty by their own admission, and be forced into receivership as they attempt to pay reparations?
It's nonsense of course to expect the US to play by the same rules the rest of the world adheres to. The US proclaims itself to be "The Exceptional Nation". She charts her own course, obeys only when it suits her purpose, and woe onto any nation that expects parity.


Sorry for sliding a little off topic.
As an American resident when Freedom Fries took their meteoric rise in popularity I'm keenly aware of the power of American propaganda, and the American peoples capacity for swallowing it with never a complaint about what they're being fed.
Terry

TerryM

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2017, 06:21:06 PM »
Months before the coup in Ukraine was viable The Exceptional One had sought bids for building a proper US Naval Base in Crimea. Officers quarters, enlisted barracks, even a Baptist Church to serve in this region where the Orthodox religion spars with a minority of Muslims.


Mr. Putin's "Polite Men in Green" came to the aid of the indigenous peoples and ended this madness. Saying that they came is not accurate, they were in fact already in place as a small proportion of the Russian Military that had been legally there for some hundreds of years. They were there under an ongoing agreement that had been in place since Ukraine became a separate entity.


When Crimeans voted first for their independence from Ukraine, then to ask for inclusion into Russia, their votes mirrored what western polling companies had expected, overwhelming support for both measures. Russian troops apparently had little or no influence since the pollsters had already predicted the results with some accuracy. Putin's refusal to grant equal protection to the residents of Eastern Ukraine arguably resulted in the massacre of Odessa and the continual loss of civilian life.


Had Putin's desire been the occupation of Ukraine, he would at a minimum have annexed Donbass and adjacent territory. When Ukrainian conscripts strayed across the Russian border after one of the Separatist encirclement's they were fed, bathed, and sent on their way. This treatment at the hands of the Russians caused many to question their superiors and yet another round of conscription was required.
I don't believe this treatment was accidental. It was simple, bloodless and effective. After this "special units" were required behind the front lines to shoot any of the conscripts that refused to push forward. Not an ideal situation for any army.


The "special units" were primarily from the radical Nazi Azov Brigade, one of the groups that marches under symbols that have been banned in Germany since the end of WWII. Azov has since been upgraded to a Regiment.
The fact that Azov's leaders have won parliamentary seats, and that the US Congress once past a bill forbidding further arming and training of these Neo-Nazi fighters may address some of the concerns this thread aims at.


Terry


 

Sebastian Jones

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2017, 06:46:56 PM »
You make some interesting assertions Terry, assertions at odds with the narrative to which I have been exposed. Do you have any references?

TerryM

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2017, 07:09:56 PM »
You make some interesting assertions Terry, assertions at odds with the narrative to which I have been exposed. Do you have any references?


I'm unsure which assertions you refer to. Wiki covers the Azov Brigade fairly, I believe the Pew Poll was instrumental in Crimean polling prior to their elections and Vineyard of the Saker's archives may allude to the treatment of Ukrainian Conscripts. One of their contributors is a Texan who was in Crimea and has written a book on the times. I no longer remember his name, or the book's title I'm afraid.
My primary source at the time has been systematically destroyed so no references remain. Today I don't even remember the name given to the debacle when the conscripts ended up with no ammunition, fuel or food and fled across the border.
If you can point out a single statement that needs validating I'll do my best to dig it up.
At the time I was spending in excess of 8 hrs.day researching the ongoing situation. I fully expected the blog I was on to remain in place and seldom bookmarked particular items, just as I expect Neven's sites to remain as evidence of what we witness in the Arctic.
As said, I will try to clear up any information you require.


Terry

Rob Dekker

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2017, 09:05:52 AM »
You make some interesting assertions Terry, assertions at odds with the narrative to which I have been exposed. Do you have any references?
I'm unsure which assertions you refer to.

Let's start with the first sentence :
Months before the coup in Ukraine was viable The Exceptional One had sought bids for building a proper US Naval Base in Crimea.

Please provide a reference to that, and explain who "The Exceptional One" is.

Rob Dekker

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2017, 09:34:19 AM »
Sidd, this thread started from the RussiaGate thread where you stated :
Agreed that Bandera factions are marginal vote in Ukraine. Unfortunately, western powers are arming those margins, exactly as they did in the Gladio history. As before, no good will come of this, especially since Russia considers Ukraine central to Russian interest.

I'm glad that you agree that the fringe right in Ukraine represents an insignificant proportion of the Ukraine population (1.8 % to Right Sector in the 2014 parliamentary elections, and 0.9 % for their leader in the 2014 presidential elections).

So the first thing in your statement that begs for evidence is your second sentence :
western powers are arming those margins, exactly as they did in the Gladio history

Actually. lets break it into two parts :
western powers are arming those margins,

I read your references above, and nowhere do I see any evidence that "western powers" are arming those margins (meaning Right Sector, or Azov or any fringe-right margin) in Ukraine.
If I missed something, please enlighten me.

For the second part :
exactly as they did in the Gladio history
you did not provide ANY evidence nor ANY links.
I read the wiki page on Gladio :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio
and the word "Ukraine" does not even appear there, let alone right-wing factions in Ukraine.

And we did not even discuss the last sentence in your opening statement, which suggest that Russia feels that it has colonial claims to a neighbor sovereign nation; something I thought we (as the citizens of this planet) had settled (as NOT OK) in the 20th century through the UN and international treaties.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2017, 09:50:56 AM by Rob Dekker »

TerryM

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2017, 10:22:58 AM »
You make some interesting assertions Terry, assertions at odds with the narrative to which I have been exposed. Do you have any references?
I'm unsure which assertions you refer to.

Let's start with the first sentence :
Months before the coup in Ukraine was viable The Exceptional One had sought bids for building a proper US Naval Base in Crimea.

Please provide a reference to that, and explain who "The Exceptional One" is.


Surely there is only one nation that holds itself to be "The Exceptional One".


As one might expect, most of the bids have been withdrawn in the light of recent developments, the American Navy did however leave at least one bid standing from Sept. 5 of 2013 for the rebuilding of a Sevastopol school.
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=2bb691b61c59be3a68180bd8c614a0cb&tab=core&tabmode=list


I believe I heard of the Baptist Church from the Texan I'd previously mentioned. It was he who noted that the Orthodox and Muslim inhabitants would find little solstice there.


Google works when you work it!
Terry


 

Rob Dekker

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2017, 10:43:23 AM »
As one might expect, most of the bids have been withdrawn in the light of recent developments, the American Navy did however leave at least one bid standing from Sept. 5 of 2013 for the rebuilding of a Sevastopol school.

Ah. So it wasn't a "Naval Base", it was just a school in Ukraine.
And this school renovation was cancelled as well since the Russians took over. From your link :
Added: Apr 15, 2014 5:18 am
Due to the current climate in Ukraine, the subject solicitation is hereby cancelled.

Seriously, Terry. Where is the beef ?

Martin Gisser

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2017, 03:29:57 PM »
Here's the very trustworthy Russia Today on these U.S. Navy charitable projects:
https://www.rt.com/news/154180-us-navy-crimea-charity/
Why NAVFAC Europe and Southwest Asia would spend the US military budget funds to renovate public installations in Crimea is an open question, yet the idea that this was made out of pure charity is doubtful.

The Voice of America website in Russian maintains that such renovation projects is a normal practice for the US military, which also has similar projects for Albania, Armenia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria (several kindergartens renovated in 2011), Georgia, Latvia, Macedonia, Montenegro, Romania and Serbia.

Yet practically all these countries are either NATO members (Albania, Bulgaria, Latvia, Romania), or have American military bases deployed on their territory.

The reason behind this activity is perhaps the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances
The Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances refers to three identical political agreements signed at the OSCE conference in Budapest, Hungary on 5 December 1994, providing security assurances by its signatories relating to Belarus's, Kazakhstan's and Ukraine's accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons. The memorandum was originally signed by three nuclear powers, the Russian Federation, the United States of America, and the United Kingdom. China and France gave somewhat weaker individual assurances in separate documents.[1]
The memorandum included security assurances against threats or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan.
As a result, between 1994 and 1996, Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons.
(my emph.)

So, methinks Occam and his razor would think these renovations of schools, hospitals, churches are psychological warfare to make Ukrainians feels safe from Russia. :)

------------
Naturally there's lots of Russian propaganda on these matters. What surprises me is how quite a few Americans desperately want to believe this propaganda.
(BTW, did you know Rachel Maddow wants nuclear war with Russia :)
« Last Edit: September 06, 2017, 04:05:24 PM by Martin Gisser »
Why is the earth silent at this destruction? (Martin Heidegger ca. 1937)

Martin Gisser

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2017, 03:56:33 PM »
I believe I heard of the Baptist Church from the Texan I'd previously mentioned. It was he who noted that the Orthodox and Muslim inhabitants would find little solstice there.


Google works when you work it!
Terry
Google indeed. Good you forgot this Texan. Here's what I got:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptists_in_Ukraine
The Baptist Church in Ukraine is one of the oldest and most widespread Protestant Christian denominations in the country. Before the fall of the Soviet Union, over half the 1.5 million acknowledged Baptists and Pentecostals in the USSR lived in Soviet Ukraine. Prior to independence in 1991, Ukraine was home to the second largest Baptist community in the world, after the United States, and was called the “Bible Belt” of the Soviet Union.

...
History

The predecessors of today's Baptists, the Anabaptists, were in Ukraine in the 16th century.[1]
The first Baptist baptism (or "baptism by faith" of adult people) in Ukraine took place in 1864 on the river Inhul in the Yelizavetgrad region (now Kropyvnytskyi region), in a German settlement. In 1867, the first Baptist communities were organized in that area. From there, the denomination spread to the south of Ukraine and then to other regions as well. One of the first Baptist communities was registered in Kiev in 1907, and in 1908 the First All-Russian Convention of Baptists was held there. The All-Russian Union of Baptists was established in the town of Yekaterinoslav (now Dnipro).[when?] At the end of the 19th century, estimates are that there were from 100,000 to 300,000 Baptists in Ukraine.[4]
(my emph.)

So shocking! :)
« Last Edit: September 06, 2017, 04:08:51 PM by Martin Gisser »
Why is the earth silent at this destruction? (Martin Heidegger ca. 1937)

Rob Dekker

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2017, 07:14:44 AM »
Naturally there's lots of Russian propaganda on these matters. What surprises me is how quite a few Americans desperately want to believe this propaganda.

+1

sidd

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2017, 07:56:28 AM »
1) Re: Western support for Nazis in Ukraine

a) I have already posted evidence for 70 years of US government support for Ukrainian nazis.

b) For more contemporary support see the 2016 Consolidated Appropriations Act, Ukraine Security Assistance Initiative. 250e6 US$ for "training; equipment; lethal weapons of a defensive nature; logistics support, supplies and services; sustainment; and intelligence support to the military and national security forces of Ukraine" plus unknown fractions of 650e6US$ on "international security assistance. " Congress reps had previously voted to stop any of this aid going to the nazis like the Azov brigade (congressman Conyers, D- Michigan), but so sad, that didnt make it to the final version that Obama signed.

Azov is now a brigade in the Ukrainian National guard, who have had trainers from the USA (and UK and Canada) since April 2015. The first thing they get trained in is probably  to hide the swastikas.

The 2016 appropriations act is on the congress sites, but make sure you get the final version. The following link has some detail:

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/02/01/azov-f01.html

c) For non governmental support closer to home, look up the UCCA (Ukrainian Congress Committee of America.) These charming people exalt Bandera, and jew killers like Yaroslav Stetsko and Roman Shukhevych. Their chairman, Lev Dobriansky was Reagan's ambassador to Bahamas, and his daughter wound up on the National Security Council. Reagan actually welcomed Stetsko to the White House. UCCA marched in Chicago under the banners of OUN (Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists) and UPA (Ukrainian Insurgent Army.) Those two are some of the vilest nazi orgs you will come across.

http://www.salon.com/2014/02/25/is_the_us_backing_neo_nazis_in_ukraine_partner/

d) in the leaked Nuland tape, she explicitly makes an agreement for her lackey, Yatsenyuk, to meet with Oleh Tyahnybok (Svoboda) four times a week. That agreement led directly to the following appointments:

 i) Deputy prime minister Oleksandr Sych from Svoboda
 ii)  National Security Secretary Andriy Parubiy co-founder of the neo-Nazi Social-National Party, Svoboda’s earlier incarnation
 iii) deputy secretary for National Security Dmytro Yarosh, the head of Right Sector
 iv) Chief prosecutor Oleh Makhnitsky from Svoboda
  v) ministers for Agriculture and Ecology also Svoboda

The Nuland tape is all over (google for "Fuck the EU" and Nuland ) and the ukrainian cabinet appointments
may be seen in

http://fair.org/home/denying-the-far-right-role-in-the-ukrainian-revolution/

So Svoboda and Pravyi Sektor are not quite so marginal it seems. Oleh Tyahnybok, Svoboda leader was cozying up to Senator McCain, shared a platform at a rally with him, has met with Nuland.


2) Re: " ... the last sentence in your opening statement, which suggest that Russia feels that it has colonial claims to a neighbor sovereign nation"
 
Not quite. My statement was: "Russia considers Ukraine central to Russian interest." I am willing to discuss my statement, but i am not interested in paraphrases thereof.

sidd



TerryM

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2017, 08:06:10 AM »
Not only shocking, but damn near unbelievable!


While Wiki reports 1.9% of Ukrainians as Protestant, their article on Crimean religion lists:


Russian Orthodox
Sunni Muslim


And smaller numbers of:


Roman Catholics
Ukrainian Greek Catholics
Armenian Apostolics
And Jewish minorities


Neither Protestants, nor the subset of this group that the Baptists must represent are even listed.


Probably as easy to find a Baptist working in Crimea as an Amish toiling away in New York City, and it is Crimea we're concerning ourselves with.


As far as the US Navy renovating grade schools (remember there is Sevastopol's school #22 as well as school #5), at the edge of Russian Naval Bases, one wonders why Honolulu, San Diego and Norfolk haven't tapped into this vast philanthropic resource?


Russia's lease on that base wasn't set to run out until at least 2042, so the US Navy certainly must have been anxious to provide up to date educational facilities for the children of the Russian Fleet. Such generosity boggles the mind.


The other requests for bids have either been taken down, or are archived somewhere. My poor internet search skills haven't located any others in 2017, but it has been some while. At one time my (quite distinctive) car was visible at three Nevada archaeological sites, as well as in my driveway. I can't find those Google Earth pages either.


Terry

Martin Gisser

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2017, 04:54:55 PM »
The Ukrainian nationalists remind me of U.S. Tea Party folks and Trump's hardcore supporters, some of which are seriously Nazi, but most are just dumb rednecks. The difference in Ukraine is that they have a serious enemy, Russia, and insist in an independent Ukrainian nation.


UCCA marched in Chicago under the banners of OUN (Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists) and UPA (Ukrainian Insurgent Army.) Those two are some of the vilest nazi orgs you will come across.

http://www.salon.com/2014/02/25/is_the_us_backing_neo_nazis_in_ukraine_partner/

The article forgets to mention that Bandera was imprisoned in Germany when Ukrainian nationalists were committing war crimes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera
Despite the central role played by Bandera's followers in the massacre of Poles in western Ukraine, Bandera himself was interned in a German concentration camp when the concrete decision to massacre the Poles was made and when the Poles were killed. According to Jaroslaw Hrycak, during his internment, from the summer of 1941, he was not completely aware of events in Ukraine and moreover had serious differences of opinion with Mykola Lebed, the OUN-B leader who remained in Ukraine and who was one of the chief architects of the massacres of Poles.[40][41] Bandera was thus not directly involved in those massacres.[40][unreliable source?]

...

A report, dated 30 March 1942, sent to the Gestapo in Berlin, claimed that "the Bandera movement provided forged passports not only for its own members, but also for Jews."[60] The false papers were most likely supplied to Jewish doctors or skilled workers who could be useful for the movement.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera

[BTW]If you want to have a look at seriously vile non-German Nazi stuff, look at the Croatian Ustashe. (Warning: WWII Croatian concentration camps were even nauseating their German peers. This stuff is a degree more horrible than Auschwitz stuff, qualitatively (but of course not quantitatively). The grandma of a friend told about a necklace of human ears sold at a flea market...)
http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/05/06/croatias-far-right-weaponizes-the-past-ustase-hasanbegovic/
[/BTW]

-----------------

In summer 2014 I met some Euromaidan activists on the Rainbow Family world gathering ("world congress of hippies") in Hungaria. They were no Nazi at all. One was complaining about some Hungarian hippies' attitude towards gypsies. The red-black flags seen at Maidan place were meant to symbolize red blood on black earth, a carried by sort of hooligan "black block" people who were fighting/defending against police attacks.

BTW German soccer hooligans can also be quite Nazi.
Why is the earth silent at this destruction? (Martin Heidegger ca. 1937)

TerryM

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2017, 07:30:28 PM »
Martin


I don't understand why you wrote the above?


Which atrocities Stepan Bandera was or was not guilty of makes no difference.
Today Bandera is a symbol, and he doesn't represent prisoners rights, the Tea Party, or a reasoned approach to foreign affairs. Stepan Bandera became a symbol of a particularly viscous strain of Nazi philosophy, and whenever his name is evoked, his birthday remembered, or his image screened, the message, to friend and foe alike, is that those marching, or singing, or fighting, are attempting to evoke the "spirit" of Bandera. The spirit of a vicious xenophobe who boasted of his inhumanity and his Nazi affiliations.


If I were to march through Selma under the banner of MLK I'd attract a very different crowd than if I marched under a banner of Malcolm X. The difference isn't due as much to what these civil rights leaders did 50 years ago, the difference is in what they represent today.


So too with the Wolfs Angle, the Black Sun and the Swastika. It doesn't matter if the swastika was a Hindu symbol for good luck, it does matter that those marching under the banner believe it to be a symbol expressing their own vicious xenophobia.


If Stepan Bandera's whitewash was effective, and he was perceived as a victim of his time, and the paragon of restraint, his present followers would simply adopt another screaming Nazi as their spiritual head. The reality of Stepan Bandera crumbles under the symbol of Stepan Bandera, and it's this symbol that The Right Sector, The Azov Brigade, and so many others have chosen as their own.


Terry

Martin Gisser

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2017, 08:02:09 PM »
I don't understand why you wrote the above?
Because I think Ukrainian Nazis are overhyped compared to e.g. Hungaria, Germany and yes even U.S.A. In east Germany there are practically no-go areas where I would not buy cheap rural property. (Some hippie friends had very bad experiences there, e.g. being shot at, and left their old farm again.)

I haven't yet figured the role of Russian propaganda here...
« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 08:07:23 PM by Martin Gisser »
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TerryM

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2017, 08:31:03 PM »

Because I think Ukrainian Nazis are overhyped compared to e.g. Hungaria, Germany and yes even U.S.A. In east Germany there are practically no-go areas where I would not buy cheap rural property. (Some hippie friends had very bad experiences there, e.g. being shot at, and left their old farm again.)

I haven't yet figured the role of Russian propaganda here...
I don't know the situation in Hungary or Germany.
Do they have Nazi brigades that fly Nazi flags?
Do they have elected officials that lead Nazi soldiers?
Have they integrated Nazi Brigades into their National guard?


I do know that none of these elements are present in the US, at this time.
There was outrage when some Canadian soldiers were found with swastika tattoos a few years back. Is there an equivalent backlash in Ukraine?


If a Russian cameraman photographs Ukrainian soldiers parading through a Ukrainian town in full Nazi array, and captures the locals waving Wolves Angles as they scream their approval, is this propaganda?
At some time pointing out inconvenient truths ceases to be propaganda & becomes news, perhaps even needed news.


If Hungarian and German Nazis are emerging I'd like to know, and their respective governments need to know. We don't need another Maidana.


Terry
« Last Edit: September 10, 2017, 10:50:48 AM by TerryM »

Rob Dekker

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2017, 06:57:32 AM »
sidd and Terry, I hear you guys, that you are really obsessed with the far right in Ukraine, but I would like you to broaden your views a bit and do some fact checking along the way for the things that you claim.

For example, we already determined that far-right nationalists in Ukraine represent a tiny fraction of the population (Right Sector only obtaining 1.8 % of the vote).
So here is what I think is at the core of sidd's argument ; that nazis have a wider role in the government of Ukraine than in the population, and that the US is at least facilitating that role :


1) Re: Western support for Nazis in Ukraine
....
d) in the leaked Nuland tape, she explicitly makes an agreement for her lackey, Yatsenyuk, to meet with Oleh Tyahnybok (Svoboda) four times a week. That agreement led directly to the following appointments:

 i) Deputy prime minister Oleksandr Sych from Svoboda
 ii)  National Security Secretary Andriy Parubiy co-founder of the neo-Nazi Social-National Party, Svoboda’s earlier incarnation
 iii) deputy secretary for National Security Dmytro Yarosh, the head of Right Sector
 iv) Chief prosecutor Oleh Makhnitsky from Svoboda
  v) ministers for Agriculture and Ecology also Svoboda

The Nuland tape is all over (google for "Fuck the EU" and Nuland ) and the ukrainian cabinet appointments
may be seen in

http://fair.org/home/denying-the-far-right-role-in-the-ukrainian-revolution/

So Svoboda and Pravyi Sektor are not quite so marginal it seems. Oleh Tyahnybok, Svoboda leader was cozying up to Senator McCain, shared a platform at a rally with him, has met with Nuland.
.....


So let's do some fact-checking on that.
For starters, not everyone is convinced that "Svoboda" is a "nazi" party.
When I read the wiki pages on this party :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_(political_party)
I noticed that they were tiny when they still had this ultra-nationalist agenda with a wolfsangel symbol before 2004. But in 2004 they abandoned that symbol and for their agenda moved away from the extreme right and became much more 'center' stage. Still very much 'nationalistic' (pro-Ukraine) but in my opinion less so than, say, Trump is in the US (America first). Some scholars even put them 'left-of-center' at this time.
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2014/05/21/fascism_comes_to_ukraine_--_from_russia_122700.html

Either way, this move, away from the extreme right, since 2004 helped them big-time since they increased in popularity, to the point where in 2012 they obtained a whopping 37 seats in parliament.

Now back to the Svoboda appointees that sidd mentions above.
As far as I can see, these guys were appointed for the interim government after the ousting of Yanukovich (March 2014) and they resigned after Svoboda was hammered in the October 2014 elections. I have to assume that they were appointed in the interim government because Svoboda had 37 seats in parliament at that time.

So, you see ? Makes sense and democracy worked in Ukraine.
Normal reasoning and a bit of fact checking kills any conspiracy theories about Nazis in Ukraine, Nuland or the US that are promoted in Russian media.

[edit] Oh. Forgot about that "deputy secretary for National Security" : Yarosh never obtained that position.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 10:32:50 AM by Rob Dekker »

Rob Dekker

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2017, 07:33:39 AM »
I don't know the situation in Hungary or Germany.
Do they have Nazi brigades that fly Nazi flags?
...
If a Russian cameraman photographs Ukrainian soldiers parading through a Ukrainian town in full Nazi array, and captures the locals waving Wolves Angles as they scream their approval, is this propaganda?

Terry, when you claimed that the US Navy was planning to build a Naval base in Crimea, we asked for a reference. You could not come up with one.
So now this is the second time asking for a reference to your claims.

The thing is that we KNOW from MH17, that Russia is willing to lie and cheat and misinform and blame Ukraine, and fabricate evidence in their news outlets.

So you should be EXTREMELY cautious when you obtained you info from a Russian news source.
If you post it, then maybe we can do some fact checking together.
Would that help ?

Rob Dekker

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2017, 08:11:04 AM »
Oh. And Terry, you were talking about nazis (or right wing extremists) in governments of other nations :
Look at this list :
http://anton-shekhovtsov.blogspot.com/2014/03/pro-russian-extremists-observe.html
Incidentally that is a list of "international observers" that Putin invited for the (illegal) Crimea "referendum".

Wake up, and smell the coffee.

sidd

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2017, 07:16:54 PM »
I stated that western powers were aiding Nazi groups in the Ukraine, and I provided evidence to that effect. Stipulated that Svoboda lost elected reps in 2014 but the fact remains that a US diplomat explicitly did a deal including them. The fact remains that western governments are arming training ukrainian military personnel which include nazi elements. The fact remains that the UCCA allies with nazi groups.  As to the reformation of Svoboda away from Nazism, I shall retain my doubts.

In a larger sense, I guess I am unwilling to see my tax dollars support such groups and causes, and i shall act to change the situation. Others here apparently are not concerned enough by nazi associations of these groups so we are in disagreement.

sidd

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2017, 07:39:50 PM »
Oh. And Terry, you were talking about nazis (or right wing extremists) in governments of other nations :
Look at this list :
http://anton-shekhovtsov.blogspot.com/2014/03/pro-russian-extremists-observe.html
Incidentally that is a list of "international observers" that Putin invited for the (illegal) Crimea "referendum".
...
Yeah.
Russia is supporting right-wing/Nazi movements all over Europe. E.g. LePen in France (luckily the French are some of the least dumbest folk in Europe).

So, I'm smelling projection. Like, the Trumpeteers' anti-Hillary propaganda. (Now, who is going to get locked up? Who is the swamp in DC? Etc etc... Hahaha, and who the f%$§ is criminally neglecting basic email security?)
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 07:54:52 PM by Martin Gisser »
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TerryM

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2017, 06:55:13 AM »
I don't know the situation in Hungary or Germany.
Do they have Nazi brigades that fly Nazi flags?
...
If a Russian cameraman photographs Ukrainian soldiers parading through a Ukrainian town in full Nazi array, and captures the locals waving Wolves Angles as they scream their approval, is this propaganda?

Terry, when you claimed that the US Navy was planning to build a Naval base in Crimea, we asked for a reference. You could not come up with one.
Actually I did respond with three references. The fact that you didn't accept them is quite a different proposition from claiming that I "could not come up with one".
The fact that this failed covert operation, which occurred ~4 yrs ago, has left any breadcrumbs to mark it's passing is remarkable in itself.
So now this is the second time asking for a reference to your claims.
Just what is it that you want proof of?
Do you need me to prove that neither Hungary or Germany have National Guard Brigades that march under flags that are illegal to fly in Germany?
At some point reductio ad absurdum must have crossed your mind. Pictures of Nazi brigades in full dress array marching through Berlin or Budapest today, brings to mind one of Mel Brooks satires. Springtime for Hitler and Germany undoubtedly would be the accompaniment.
The thing is that we KNOW from MH17, that Russia is willing to lie and cheat and misinform and blame Ukraine, and fabricate evidence in their news outlets.
The only thing that we "KNOW" from MH17's untimely downing is that Putin's Presidential jet was in the air at ~the same time, in ~the same location, with the Russian President aboard. That someone shot MH17 down using a ground to air missile, an air to air missile, or machine gun fire from rather close range.
In addition we can infer that the US and her allies, as well as the Russians, have radar and satellite images that will prove to everyone's satisfaction exactly who did what to whom. The fact that neither side has made their own images available is at the minimum perplexing.
So you should be EXTREMELY cautious when you obtained you info from a Russian news source.
Actually I use extreme caution obtaining information from any news source. While these events were occurring I was reading reports from people on the ground in both Ukraine and Crimea. They of course had their own biases, but all were reporting on the same events from their own varied perspectives.
If you post it, then maybe we can do some fact checking together.
Since you don't accept my sources, my assumptions, or my experiences, I'm unsure what you hope to accomplish.


What occurred in Ukraine was and is painful. I'm not an overly emotional person, but viewing a middle aged women with her legs blown off, lying in the street and asking what had happened to her daughter affected me. Government forces were the only ones in the air at that time. Video of a very pregnant, freshly raped body, with the telephone wire that strangled her still taut gives me shivers when I recall Odessa.
These were not isolated occurrences. Odessa was planned and executed as a cautionary lesson to anyone who didn't jump when Kiev demanded it. People did return to their villages, only to find their neighbors gone and strangers eating at their table.
I followed all of this in real time. I learned a lesson about how these regimes come to power, how governmental terrorism works, and something of the power of propaganda.
Would that help ?
To accomplish what?
You seem to have swallowed the Ukrainian/American packet in it's entirety. It distresses me when a friend, and I consider everyone at Neven's sites as a friend, appears to be in the thralls of ideology. This forum is scientifically literate. We're aware that our biases need to be subservient to our observations. We know that consensus means naught and that one fact outweighs a thousand theories.


What facts would strengthen our hypotheses? What facts might weaken it?
If America were behind the coup does evidence exist?
Nancy Nuland's phone conversation to Pyatt has never been questioned. In fact the state department acknowledged the authenticity of the recording when they apologized for her remarks.


This is very strong evidence that, rather than being an internal Ukrainian uprising, or something that the Kremlin orchestrated, it was instead a plot that Dick Chaney's former foreign affairs adviser was deeply involved in.


Once America's part in overthrowing a democratic government is accepted, the other elements begin to fall into place. Without this basic understanding the subsequent atrocities make little sense. Crimea had petitioned for her independence from Ukraine many times, but this was the straw that stuck in their gullet (to mix a few metaphors). Donbass wanted closer ties to Russia, so her primarily Russian speaking populace became the enemy of the usurpers. Odessa's populace was leaning toward Russia, an example had to be made.
Without understanding the duplicity of those in power in Kiev, and the debt they owe to the US, these destructive actions seem to be acts of national suicide.
In this instance the nation of Ukraine's survival is of less importance than disrupting Russia's energy sales to the Eu. Yats, Poroshenko and Biden are in it for the money - and what happened to the tons of gold that were spirited out of the country?


Thousands of dead civilians in Donbass mean little to those that consider the murder of 300k children in Iraq to be "worth it".
Another failed state counts for little when global hegemony is the goal.
The people of Ukraine are the victims of the deep state, even the Nazis.


Terry

Martin Gisser

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2017, 07:14:30 AM »
Links, please, Terry. Quick clicks we want. :)
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sidd

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2017, 07:19:17 AM »
For me, the Odessa massacre exposed exactly who the Obama and the USA were in bed with.

sidd

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2017, 11:21:57 AM »
For me, the Odessa massacre exposed exactly who the Obama and the USA were in bed with.

sidd
It took a good three weeks & hundreds of videos and photos to sort the whole thing out.


The secret is to look for red armbands. Forget uniforms, masks, and positions just concentrate on who is wearing red duck tape on their arm.
They are the ones shooting into the crowd at the football arena, they are the ones retreating through the "separatist's" camp, they are the ones that were clubbing to death those who leapt from the burning building.


The most savage, planned and executed attack on civilians I've ever witnessed. Bombs have killed far more, but this was an up close and person slaughter of their countrymen.
Terry

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2017, 06:33:23 AM »
I don't know the situation in Hungary or Germany.
Do they have Nazi brigades that fly Nazi flags?
...
If a Russian cameraman photographs Ukrainian soldiers parading through a Ukrainian town in full Nazi array, and captures the locals waving Wolves Angles as they scream their approval, is this propaganda?

Terry, when you claimed that the US Navy was planning to build a Naval base in Crimea, we asked for a reference. You could not come up with one.
Actually I did respond with three references. The fact that you didn't accept them is quite a different proposition from claiming that I "could not come up with one".

Terry, this is getting silly.
So far we have asked references to THREE claims you have made :
1) Your claim that the US Navy was planning to build a Naval base in Crimea
2) Your claim that "Nazi brigades that fly Nazi flags"
3) Your claim that "a Russian cameraman photographs Ukrainian soldiers parading through a Ukrainian town in full Nazi array, and captures the locals waving Wolves Angles as they scream their approval,"

So far you responded with with ONE reference (not three) which pointed to the renovation of a school in Ukraine under a US aid program.

That's it.

Did you forget where you found your info ? Or are you just make this stuff up and are deliberately spreading fake-news in this fine forum ?

Rob Dekker

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2017, 07:26:15 AM »
Since neither Sidd nor Terry appear to be able to produce any evidence of Nazi's fighting on the Ukraine side, let me start off and present a few that I found. Only these ones are fighting on the side of the Russians :

http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.com/2015/06/nazi-fighter-oksana-nikadimova-allowed.html

She received this medal :


and she clearly has a friendly relationship with puppy-killer neo-Nazi Alexey Milchakov



who makes it very clear what his orientation is :


So neo-nazis ARE fighting for the Russian side, and at least one is doubling as a journalist, and is even granted access to OSCE trips behind the front lines, nicely spying on Ukraine's military.

And these two are not the only ones.
Neo-Nazis seem to be at the core of the "Novorossiya" effort in Donbass
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.com/2015/06/nazis-are-core-of-russias-hybrid-army.html
Including the self-proclaimed "People's Governor of Donetsk" Paul Gubarev.

And meanwhile Russia is accusing Ukraine of being Nazi ??

Russian hypocrisy is mind boggling especially when it comes to Ukraine.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 08:40:26 AM by Rob Dekker »

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« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 03:32:31 PM by Martin Gisser »
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Martin Gisser

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2017, 12:17:29 AM »
Here's the first image as attachment:
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2017, 07:07:10 AM »
Sidd, in light of these findings, maybe we should rename the thread to "Ukraine, Nazis and Russian support".

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2017, 05:03:28 PM »
Hello, interesting discussion you have here.

Svoboda is definitly a nazi party, why else would they enlist someone like Joeri Mychaltsjysjyn as adviser, he runs the Joseph Goebbels Political Research Centre for pete's sake...

I advise you guys to watch the 2 folowing documentaries :

TV1 documentary on the involvement of the asov brigade and other far right militia groups.
https://www.dumpert.nl/embed/6722834/7053f603/   
<French with English subtitles>

BBC piece on the Maidan revolution, where they talk to one of the " snipers of Maidan"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJhJ6hks0Jg

Hope you have time to watch the videos, the first one is 55 min the second around 16 min.

Peace,
TF9

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2017, 06:06:07 PM »
I'd suggest "Ukraine, Nazis and their support". Nazis are everywhere where there are young stupid violent males. It's a style of expression for many, just like Islamist fundamentalism or Antifa extremism. The blog you quoted also shows evidence of genuine Ukrainian Nazis in the Azov brigade.
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.de/2014/11/nazis-in-azov-battalion.html
Why is the earth silent at this destruction? (Martin Heidegger ca. 1937)

Rob Dekker

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2017, 08:22:32 AM »
I'd suggest "Ukraine, Nazis and their support".
I agree.

Maybe with the annotation that the most intimidation piece of equipment that the US has provided are night-vision goggles, and that was to the Ukrainian army, not to independent para military groups that may or may not be "Nazi".

Russia on the other hand has been providing all the commanders (including Strelkov) and Nazi para military groups and thousands of fighters of all sorts of life, and an endless stream of weapons including hundreds of tanks and heavy equipment creating a conflict that caused 6000 civilian deaths and near complete destruction of many parts of Donbass, and even a BUK that was used to shoot down a civilian airplane.

Just to note the difference in "support" from the superpowers in this conflict.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2017, 08:37:19 AM by Rob Dekker »

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2017, 08:56:27 AM »
Hello, interesting discussion you have here.

Svoboda is definitly a nazi party, why else would they enlist someone like Joeri Mychaltsjysjyn as adviser, he runs the Joseph Goebbels Political Research Centre for pete's sake...


Hi Tunnelforce9, welcome to the discussion. And you sure come in with a bang. Why don't you start with your (real) name ?

Typically, to define a party as Nazi, they need to have some Nazi agenda. Some number of items on the party platform that shows they have Nazi ideas. Do you have a link to Svoboda's platform and which part of that is Nazi in your opinion ?

Many scholars suggest that Svoboda is not Nazi, just rather radical right wing Nationalist.
This scholar suggests they are similar to Vlaams Belang in Belgium :
http://www.eurozine.com/from-electoral-success-to-revolutionary-failure/

Also, regardless of the platform, in the 2014 elections Svoboda represented only 5% of the vote in Ukraine, 10% at the peak in 2012. Incidentally that is similar to Vlaams Belang, who obtained 12% of the Belgium House in 2007 and some 4% in 2014.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlaams_Belang

[edit] Frankly speaking, we have a much bigger problem with far-right nationalists here in the US than they have in Ukraine : The Trump administration is still running at a 38% or so approval rating.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2017, 09:45:01 AM by Rob Dekker »

sidd

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2017, 11:14:49 PM »
Re: Azov brigade:
As i have posted and linked earlier, Azov brigade is an armed neo Nazi organization, subsumed under that name into the Ukranian National Guard, currently being trained and equipped by western powers.

Re: demand for real names
Is that now a condition to post here ? Is Mr Dekker now a moderator ?

Re: " ... neither Sidd nor Terry appear to be able to produce any evidence of Nazi's fighting on the Ukraine side ..."

I will leave Mr Terry to speak for himself. I have posted evidence, if some see fit to ignore or challenge, that is their privilege. I shall consult my own judgement in that matter.

sidd
« Last Edit: September 13, 2017, 11:20:26 PM by sidd »

Rob Dekker

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #37 on: September 14, 2017, 06:41:19 AM »
About Azov, Martin showed a link to ukraine@war above which clearly identifies a neo-Nazi among its members. There may be more, so I'm not going to argue that Azov is free of Nazis.

Also, US congress has bend-over backward to avoid training or supplying Azov, including a special amendment that explicitly mentions Azov. And specifically no US weapons ever made it to Azov, simply because the US has not supplied any weapons to any Ukraine army unit.

However, as I showed (links above) that ukraine@war also found several members of Russian unit 'Русич' that are clearly neo-Nazi. And 'Русич' is supplied plenty of weapons by Russia.

Yet I don't hear you talk about 'Русич' or ANY Russian weapons supplied to the 'separatists' at all, even though Russia supplied hundreds of tanks and artillery and everything else in this conflict.

Why the double standard, Sidd ?

sidd

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #38 on: September 15, 2017, 07:29:47 AM »
1) Re: Azov: I posted links with information about nazi background much earlier in this thread.

2) Re: Amendment to 2016 act barring USA support for Azov: As I posted earlier,  this amendment did not make it to the final version signed by obama. That bill includes "lethal weapons of a defensive nature" and I posted links to this also.

3) Re: Russian support for nazi elements: Please note the title of this thread. I created this thread specifically to address western support for ukrainian nazis. Any member is free to create a thread that deals with Russian misdeeds, in Ukraine or elsewhere. If, however, some feel the need to discuss Russian actions on this thread, that is their privilege.  As is mine to reply or refrain from that discussion here.

Apparently some here read very little that i post (including the title of the thread!) or read with no comprehension.

On another note, I am quite curious as to why a demand was made for real names on this thread. I made no such condition when i began this thread, and i have noticed no such demand on any other thread. To make my position absolutely clear: As far as I am concerned, none need reveal their name on this thread. If Neven wishes to impose non anonymity, I will, regretfully, leave this forum.

sidd
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 07:45:45 AM by sidd »

Rob Dekker

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #39 on: September 16, 2017, 09:50:32 AM »
Sidd, I already read your prior references, and you made your opinion about western support for Ukraine (and implicitly Azov) abundantly clear.

I'm sorry that you fail to see Russia's role in this conflict, since that is kind of the 800 pound gorilla in the room : Russia has been providing all the commanders (including top commander Strelkov) and Nazi para military groups and thousands of fighters of all sorts of life, and an endless stream of weapons including hundreds of tanks and heavy equipment creating a conflict that caused 6000 civilian deaths and near complete destruction of many parts of Donbass, and even a BUK that was used to shoot down a civilian airplane.

I understand you don't want to talk about that in this thread, but that is telling more about you than about Nazis involved on either side.

Finally, the only reason I asked Tunnelforce9 for a name is that it is a good test to see if the poster is a bot or an anonymous troll that just drops some links and disappears : If they are, they won't answer the question, and if they are not, then they will state a name, which makes the conversation a lot more pleasant. I hate to talk to anonymous internet entities.

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #40 on: September 16, 2017, 03:50:49 PM »
Sidd, ...' and even a BUK that was used to shoot down a civilian airplane.'


Jeez Rob!  Show us just one single picture of the contrail of an ascending missile on that day.  Among all the video that was shot that hazy afternoon there must be dozens you can find for us.  Dozens.  All you have to do is show us one image (a genuine image, of course) and an account that says they saw the contrail rising in the right direction at the right time.  We're an evidence based discussion group.  Show us the evidence. 

For reference, this is what you are looking for...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5V0Y0glqz0

Martin Gisser

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #41 on: September 16, 2017, 04:08:58 PM »
Nazis are everywhere where there are young stupid violent males.

Here's a recent example from Germany:
http://www.dw.com/en/germany-promises-army-reforms-after-neo-nazi-terror-plot/a-38789648

This wasn't some low rank freshling, but an officer known by his peers for being Nazi. He had a swastika carved in his rifle.
Why is the earth silent at this destruction? (Martin Heidegger ca. 1937)

Martin Gisser

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #42 on: September 16, 2017, 04:45:24 PM »
Sidd, ...' and even a BUK that was used to shoot down a civilian airplane.'



Jeez Rob!  Show us just one single picture of the contrail of an ascending missile on that day.  Among all the video that was shot that hazy afternoon there must be dozens you can find for us.  Dozens.  All you have to do is show us one image (a genuine image, of course) and an account that says they saw the contrail rising in the right direction at the right time.  We're an evidence based discussion group.  Show us the evidence. 

For reference, this is what you are looking for...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5V0Y0glqz0


First attached image is a summary of the first Dutch examination, documented here: https://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/phase-docs/1006/debcd724fe7breport-mh17-crash.pdf
Read §10.2 #6-8 page 255 for the evidence about the rocket.

Later they found a satellite image of the BUK who likely fired the rocket. 2nd attached image.

Images from http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/mh17-the-satellite-images-russia-doesnt-want-us-to-see/news-story/8c03f8e87971d36f70b5402ffbda16ff May 17, 2016

------------
P.S.: Caveat for "Russophiles :)": "Putin tells complete nonsense in Stone interview about MH17" http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/another-low-in-russian-misinformation-president-putin-tells-complete-nonsense-in-stone-interview-about-mh17/
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 04:50:36 PM by Martin Gisser »
Why is the earth silent at this destruction? (Martin Heidegger ca. 1937)

Martin Gisser

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #44 on: September 16, 2017, 09:11:43 PM »
Finally, the only reason I asked Tunnelforce9 for a name is that it is a good test to see if the poster is a bot or an anonymous troll that just drops some links and disappears

I coincidentally had some PM contact with Tunnelforce9 and I'm pretty sure he isn't a bot. I don't know about anonymous troll as he hasn't posted enough, but I would bet against it. I'm willing to vouch for sidd.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #45 on: September 17, 2017, 05:03:26 AM »
Thanks Neven, I'm glad that Tunnelforce9 is not a bot.

Rob Dekker

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #46 on: September 17, 2017, 07:47:29 AM »
sidd said :
Congress reps had previously voted to stop any of this aid going to the nazis like the Azov brigade (congressman Conyers, D- Michigan), but so sad, that didnt make it to the final version that Obama signed.
....
The 2016 appropriations act is on the congress sites, but make sure you get the final version. The following link has some detail:

Sidd, the fact that you can't give a link to 'the final version' is telling.

Here is H.R.2685 - Department of Defense Appropriations Act, 2016 as passed by Congress :
https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-bill/2685/text

It clearly mentions :
Sec. 10009. None of the funds made available by this Act may be used to provide arms, training, or other assistance to the Azov Battalion.

Are you claiming that Obama signed a bill that is different ? And if so, where is it ?
« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 08:02:44 AM by Rob Dekker »

Adam Ash

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #47 on: September 17, 2017, 10:42:14 AM »
Comprehensive analysis here:
Thanks Martin.  Very interesting analysis and discussion.

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #48 on: September 17, 2017, 07:10:07 PM »
From my link earlier to wsws.org

"While Conyers’ amendment was widely reported in the media when it passed the House of Representatives in June last year, it was never subject to a vote in the Senate. The 2016 Department of Defense Appropriations Act was incorporated into the 2016 Consolidated Appropriations Act, which became law on December 18."

For the law that was actually passed and signed into law by obama on dec 18 2018 please see:

https://www.congress.gov/114/plaws/publ113/PLAW-114publ113.pdf

The section on the Azov batallion is omitted. The version passed by congress which included limitation excluding Azov never came up for vote in the Senate.

This is another instance illustrating that some here do not read what i post, or read with no comprehension.

sidd



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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #49 on: September 17, 2017, 08:41:01 PM »
For the law that was actually passed and signed into law by obama on dec 18 2018 please see...

Wait--Obama passed a law in the future? Damn that guy! Always time traveling and screwing things up for TrumPutin...