Support the Arctic Sea Ice Forum and Blog

Author Topic: Ukraine, Nazis and western support  (Read 5275 times)

sidd

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1818
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #50 on: September 18, 2017, 01:19:59 AM »
Sorry for the typo, and thanx for catching it. The 2016 Consolidated Appropriations Act became law on December 18, 2015.

sidd

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 774
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #51 on: September 18, 2017, 04:56:03 AM »
Thanks for the link sidd. That helps.

So they yanked the Azov exclusion.
By itself that's not that surprising (micro-management and over-regulation and such) and either way the Leahy Law still applies.

So if at any point in time Azov starts mis-behaving, their funding disappears. That's a good incentive to comply by the international rules of war (Geneva convention etc).

I don't think Russian Parliament has anything like the Leahy law that would apply to the Russian battalions in this conflict. Or are you of the opinion that Russia has no involvement in this conflict ?

sidd

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1818
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #52 on: September 18, 2017, 07:31:35 AM »
The  Leahy law is more honoured in the breach than in the observance. Afghanistan, Phillipines and Colombia come immediately to mind, not to mention Saudi in Yemen and Israel.

www.lawschool.cornell.edu/research/ILJ/upload/Miller-final.pdf

So you may colour me unconvinced.

sidd

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 774
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #53 on: September 18, 2017, 07:50:54 AM »
Disputable. But only just that : I don't disagree that it is hard to find the crossing line.

Regarding the Leahy Law, it would be nice if you could provide some evidence of human right violations and war crimes committed by Azov. If they are so "Nazi" than surely they committed many crimes.

And what about the other issues on the table : Does the Russian Parliament have anything like the Leahy law that would apply to the Russian battalions in this conflict ? Or are you of the opinion that Russia has no involvement in this conflict ?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 08:18:08 AM by Rob Dekker »

sidd

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1818
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #54 on: September 18, 2017, 08:23:48 AM »
Let me recapitulate:

1) I began this thread with a specific title  because that is what i wanted to discuss
2) If some want to discuss Russia in this thread that is their privilege
3) However they cannot compel me to join that discussion.

That said, I have created a thread called "Russia in Ukraine." Have at it.

sidd

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 774
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #55 on: September 18, 2017, 08:25:44 AM »
That's one way to avoid answering a question, but OK. I'll post there.
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2160.0.html

For this thread, the issue remains :

Regarding the Leahy Law, it would be nice if you could provide some evidence of human right violations and war crimes committed by Azov. If they are so "Nazi" than surely they committed many crimes.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 08:58:12 AM by Rob Dekker »

sidd

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1818
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #56 on: September 18, 2017, 08:47:37 AM »

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 774
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #57 on: September 18, 2017, 09:03:59 AM »
From your first reference :
Another soldier,
a member of the Azov regiment who was captured in Shyrokyne in February 2015 was
subjected to electric shock and his teeth were pulled out

That sure doesn't help your allegations.

We also see :
On 23 December, OHCHR met with four detainees held in Mariupol SIZO for their
alleged involvement in the 9 May events. They complained that they had been ill-treated by
SBU officials and members of the Azov regiment in Mariupol, detained incommunicado for
some time in September 2014, and that evidence extracted through torture was being used
in their trial.

Which 'trial' are we talking about here ? And exactly which 'evidence' was presented there ?


Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 774
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #58 on: September 19, 2017, 08:19:24 AM »
I analyzed the two OHCHR reports in detail, and from the 215+214=429 items listed in these reports, there are only 4 instances of allegations against Azov.

2 allegations of 'torture', where Azov members allegedly were a party.

1 allegation of looting (of Shyrokyne)

1 allegation by a mentally disturbed man that 8-10 Azov members raped him.

Also note that it does not take much work to get an entry into this OHCHR report : All you have to do is claim something.
For example, the torture claim I quoted before :
On 23 December, OHCHR met with four detainees held in Mariupol SIZO for their
alleged involvement in the 9 May events. They complained that they had been ill-treated by
SBU officials and members of the Azov regiment in Mariupol, detained incommunicado for
some time in September 2014, and that evidence extracted through torture was being used
in their trial.

Let's analyze that one a bit more in detail.

First of all, note that the four detainees "complained". That means the story came from them, and has not been verified. Next, note that they mention TWO groups that allegedly mis-treated them : "SBU officials and members of the Azov regiment". If you don't know who mis-treated you, then just say that. But blaming TWO groups without specifying exactly what each group did doesn't make your statement very credible. And note there are FOUR detainees, but only ONE story. Did they all four of them experience the same 'torture' by the SBU and Azov ?
Then note that they did not even specify what acts of 'torture' they were subjected to.

It seems these four just brought up an argument to help their case in trial, and OHCHR had a willing ear to listen to their story.

Also, if they were tortured, they can file a complaint with the Ukrainian Prosecutor General.
In 2015, the Office of the Prosecutor General launched 1,925 criminal investigations into allegations of torture and ill-treatment by police and penitentiary officials.

The remaining three incidences where Azov was implied are similarly questionable.
I'd be happy to elaborate, but there really is no evidence in either of these instances of alleged Azov misconduct.


TerryM

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2353
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #59 on: September 19, 2017, 06:54:41 PM »
Hello, interesting discussion you have here.

Svoboda is definitly a nazi party, why else would they enlist someone like Joeri Mychaltsjysjyn as adviser, he runs the Joseph Goebbels Political Research Centre for pete's sake...

I advise you guys to watch the 2 folowing documentaries :

TV1 documentary on the involvement of the asov brigade and other far right militia groups.
https://www.dumpert.nl/embed/6722834/7053f603/   
<French with English subtitles>

BBC piece on the Maidan revolution, where they talk to one of the " snipers of Maidan"


Hope you have time to watch the videos, the first one is 55 min the second around 16 min.

Peace,
TF9


I just finished the TV1 documentary. While I found the Odessa footage significantly less bloody than what I'd viewed in near real time, the coverage was good, if muted.
The balance of their presentation was spot on with one leader chanting Heil Hitler, another feeling no remorse for the dead Russian speakers in Odessa, and a third praising Odessa as having sent out the message that, if you disagree with us everything is blood.
I'm separated from these animals by an ocean, and for this accident of geography I'm grateful.


I'm sure that when they've finished "purifying" the judges, all their actions will be legal.


Thanks so much for the link. For anyone who slept through the coup it's a great synopses from a French perspective.


I'll return when I've had time to peruse the 2nd video.


Hope to hear more from you
Terry

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 774
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #60 on: September 20, 2017, 09:45:53 AM »
For anyone who slept through the coup it's a great synopses from a French perspective.

Terry, it baffles me why you continue to call the ousting of Yanukovich a coup ?
He was impeached and democratically removed from power :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych
On 22 February 2014, 328 of 447 members of the Ukrainian parliament (MPs)—or about 73% of the MPs—voted to "remove Viktor Yanukovych from the post of president of Ukraine" on the grounds that he was unable to fulfill his duties[15] and to hold early presidential elections on 25 May

He was even denounced by his OWN party (Party of Regions) :

Yanukovych was disowned by the Party of Regions. In a statement issued by Oleksandr Yefremov, parliamentary faction leader, the party and its members "strongly condemn[ed] the criminal orders that led to human victims, an empty state treasury, huge debts, shame before the eyes of the Ukrainian people and the entire world."

I don't understand that reasonable, intelligent people call that a coup.

Jim Pettit

  • Global Moderator
  • ASIF Upper Class
  • *****
  • Posts: 1083
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #61 on: September 20, 2017, 05:39:15 PM »
For anyone who slept through the coup it's a great synopses from a French perspective.

Terry, it baffles me why you continue to call the ousting of Yanukovich a coup ?
He was impeached and democratically removed from power :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych
On 22 February 2014, 328 of 447 members of the Ukrainian parliament (MPs)—or about 73% of the MPs—voted to "remove Viktor Yanukovych from the post of president of Ukraine" on the grounds that he was unable to fulfill his duties[15] and to hold early presidential elections on 25 May

He was even denounced by his OWN party (Party of Regions) :

Yanukovych was disowned by the Party of Regions. In a statement issued by Oleksandr Yefremov, parliamentary faction leader, the party and its members "strongly condemn[ed] the criminal orders that led to human victims, an empty state treasury, huge debts, shame before the eyes of the Ukrainian people and the entire world."

I don't understand that reasonable, intelligent people call that a coup.

For what it's worth, it's not just Terry; a handful of close conservative friends of mine have been using the term "attempted coup" to describe the Mueller investigation, and have promised they'd respond to any Trump impeachment or resignation with the retaliatory force such an "illicit overthrow" would deserve. IOW: I suppose to some, a coup is in the eyes of the beholder. :\

sidd

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1818
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #62 on: September 20, 2017, 07:46:51 PM »
Mr. Dekker pointed out that a post of mine in another thread was relevant here, so I repost :

"Is it possible to adopt the nationalist legacy as the national legacy and just forget about its dark side?"

is the question asked at the end of this thoughtful piece on historical legacy of Nazi support in Ukraine:

shron.chtyvo.org.ua/Khymka_Ivan-Pavlo/The_History_behind_the_Regional_Conflict_in_Ukraine_anhl.pdf

sidd

TerryM

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2353
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #63 on: September 21, 2017, 08:25:54 AM »
For anyone who slept through the coup it's a great synopses from a French perspective.

Terry, it baffles me why you continue to call the ousting of Yanukovich a coup ?
He was impeached and democratically removed from power :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych
On 22 February 2014, 328 of 447 members of the Ukrainian parliament (MPs)—or about 73% of the MPs—voted to "remove Viktor Yanukovych from the post of president of Ukraine" on the grounds that he was unable to fulfill his duties[15] and to hold early presidential elections on 25 May

He was even denounced by his OWN party (Party of Regions) :

Yanukovych was disowned by the Party of Regions. In a statement issued by Oleksandr Yefremov, parliamentary faction leader, the party and its members "strongly condemn[ed] the criminal orders that led to human victims, an empty state treasury, huge debts, shame before the eyes of the Ukrainian people and the entire world."

I don't understand that reasonable, intelligent people call that a coup.



For what it's worth, it's not just Terry; a handful of close conservative friends of mine have been using the term "attempted coup" to describe the Mueller investigation, and have promised they'd respond to any Trump impeachment or resignation with the retaliatory force such an "illicit overthrow" would deserve. IOW: I suppose to some, a coup is in the eyes of the beholder. :\


The bolded above:


It's not just Terry who claims that Yanukovych was not removed by impeachment, or by any constitutional process, it happens to be that the Wiki quoted above lays this out quite clearly when the full paragraph is read, rather than just cutting, sorting, then pasting it back together.


"On 22 February, the Ukrainian Parliament voted to remove him from his post, on the grounds that he was unable to fulfill his duties. Although the legislative removal by an impeachment procedure would have lacked the number of votes required by Ukraine's constitution,[16] the resolution did not follow the impeachment procedure but instead established that Yanukovych "withdrew from his duties in an unconstitutional manner" and citing "circumstances of extreme urgency",[17][18] a situation for which there was no stipulation in the then-current Ukrainian constitution.[19] Parliament set 25 May as the date for the special election to select his replacement,[15][20][21][22] and, two days later, issued a warrant for his arrest, accusing him of "mass killing of civilians."[23]"
[/size]
[/size]Since the ouster was:
[/size]
[/size]Sudden & decisive.
[/size]Resulted in a change of government.
[/size]And was outside Ukrainian Constitutional Law

[/size]It seems to meet all three defining requirements of a coup d'etat.
[/size]
[/size]a sudden and decisive action in politics, especially one resulting in a change of government illegally or by force.[/i]
[/size]
[/size]Since violence apparently was involved as Yanukovych was fleeing Kiev, perhaps "Putsch" would a more properly descriptive term, but putsch entails such negative connotations that I'd prefer the less pejorative coup, or coup d'etat.
[/size]
[/size]Apologies for aberrant size commands, but an impeachment is an impeachment and a coup is a coup.  I simply quoted the full paragraph that you had quoted from to prove my point.
[/size]My definition of coup d'etat is from Dictionary.com
[/size]
[/size]Terry

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 774
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #64 on: September 21, 2017, 09:26:35 AM »
Although the legislative removal by an impeachment procedure would have lacked the number of votes required by Ukraine's constitution,

Interesting. What IS the number of votes required by Ukraine's constitution for removal by impeachment procedure ?

TerryM

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2353
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #65 on: September 21, 2017, 10:19:27 AM »
Although the legislative removal by an impeachment procedure would have lacked the number of votes required by Ukraine's constitution,

Interesting. What IS the number of votes required by Ukraine's constitution for removal by impeachment procedure ?


No idea, apparently at the time of the removal they " .... lacked the number of votes required by Ukraine's constitution." - That's according to the source that you quoted from.


addendum
Apparently it's Article 11 of the Ukraine Constitution that required a 75% vote of all of parliament to remove, (impeach) a president.


Terry

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 774
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #66 on: September 22, 2017, 06:38:03 AM »
Thanks Terry.

I cannot find the required vote count for removal (75%) anywhere in the Ukraine Constitution copies I find on-line, so let's assume it is correct.

If so, then even though the vote count was 328-0, it was still 2% short of the 75% required. I am not an expert in law (and definitely not in Ukrainian law) so I'm not sure if they cut some (2%) corner here, or if they found a different rule that did not require 75% of the vote.

Note that in the US, impeachment and removal are a two-step process, where impeachment requires 50% of the vote in the House, and removal requires 2/3rd the vote in the Senate.
http://elitedaily.com/news/politics/number-members-congress-need-impeach-president/1958544/
So under US law, Yanukovych would have been toast.

On second look, it looks like the Ukrainian Rada did not use the impeachment procedure, but instead some special circumstances. Note the text : "withdrew from his duties in an unconstitutional manner" and citing "circumstances of extreme urgency" which may not have needed 75% of the vote.

Either way, if 73% of parliament (and even your own party) denounces you in a 328 to 0 vote, your position becomes unsustainable. No matter if you call it a "coup" or not.

If you really want to know what a "coup" looks like, look at what happened with the Crimea Rada. where decisions for replacement of the Prime Minister and an illegal referendum were forced under gun-point from Russian military.

THAT is a "coup".


Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 774
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #67 on: September 23, 2017, 05:41:02 AM »
This reference sheds more light on what happened in the Ukrainian Rada that ousted Yanukovych :

http://www.ponarseurasia.org/article/was-yanukovych%E2%80%99s-removal-constitutional

The Rada did not follow, or claim to follow, the impeachment route. They passed a resolution that established that Yanukovych had removed himself from fulfilling his constitutional duties. The resolution stated that due to the fact that Yanukovych had unconstitutionally stopped fulfilling his presidential duties, the Rada was calling early presidential elections as is their right under Article 85/7. It seems that nothing in the constitution prohibits parliament from passing such a resolution, which has the full legal force of a law, according to Article 91. The speaker of the Rada signed the resolution, again in accordance with the constitution (Article 88/3).

So he was not impeached, but he WAS removed from power in a democratic way.

Note also :
While we cannot know Yanukovych’s intentions for certain, the dumping of his documents in the lake at his fancy Mezhigorie residence and the traces of hectic packing suggest that the president was indeed fleeing rather than just going to a meeting in Kharkiv, as he later claimed. His midnight disappearing act left the country effectively without a president and a government.

If the country is left without a president and a government, parliament has every right to call for new presidential elections, as is their right under Article 85/7.

Yanukovych did this all to himself, despite his claims of a "Nazi coup".

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 774
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #68 on: September 30, 2017, 07:25:33 AM »
The thing is that we KNOW from MH17, that Russia is willing to lie and cheat and misinform and blame Ukraine, and fabricate evidence in their news outlets.
The only thing that we "KNOW" from MH17's untimely downing is that Putin's Presidential jet was in the air at ~the same time, in ~the same location, with the Russian President aboard. That someone shot MH17 down using a ground to air missile, an air to air missile, or machine gun fire from rather close range.

I know you made this comment a while ago, but I still find it totally perplexing.

It is almost as if you have not seen any evidence since July 18, 2014 (the day after MH17 was shot down) and even then only watched RT for your news.

Why do you completely ignore the Dutch Safety Board report :
https://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/phase-docs/1006/debcd724fe7breport-mh17-crash.pdf

which states clearly :
The weapon used was a 9N314M-model warhead carried on the 9M38-series of missiles,
 as installed on the Buk surface-to-air missile system

Ruling out any air-to-air missile or machine gun.

And then we have the likely launch location just south of Snizhne as confirmed by three different sources (first image attached). Which is consistent with the initial (July 21, 2014) findings of the launch location by ukraine@war :
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.nl/2014/07/launch-location-detected-of-missile.html
which is again consistent with the Pentagon's (July 22, 2014) assessment of the launch location :



And were you completely unaware of the amazing work done on MH17 by Bellingcat, with many dozens of posts, which show that the BUK that downed MH17 was brought in from the 53rd BUK brigade in Kursk (Russia) and trucked into Ukraine the day before, and then trucked out again the day after ?
Here is one summary report of their findings :
https://www.bellingcat.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/mh17-3rd-anniversary-report.pdf

And then we have the plenty of lies and fabricated evidence by the Russian Defense Ministry in the MH17 case :
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/07/16/russias-colin-powell-moment-how-the-russian-governments-mh17-lies-were-exposed/

Seriously, I find it astounding how you (Terry) can be so misinformed about MH17. Do you only watch RT for your news ?
« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 08:46:20 AM by Rob Dekker »

TerryM

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2353
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #69 on: September 30, 2017, 10:22:28 AM »
Actually I prefer 1st hand information from say the Canadian investigator who was on the scene within the first hour of the crash (who photographed and reported the machine gunned cockpit), and tend to ignore reports from Bellingcat, and other disinformation sources, but thanks for your concerns.
You may have noticed that I seldom copy and paste from propaganda outlets, from either side. At one time I'd learned to differentiate between Russian tank models & chose to ignore those sites who either didn't know which model was photographed, or more likely deliberately misinformed their readers.


When someone reports that the Arctic ice is recovering, I tend to ignore whatever follows.



Terry

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Governor
  • *****
  • Posts: 4221
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #70 on: September 30, 2017, 10:58:24 AM »
That's a bad analogy, Terry. Arctic sea ice loss is based on science. Whereas the Ukraine stuff is greed masqueraded as geopolitics.

On the other hand, both events are caused by the same thing: Money trying to multiply itself endlessly.

Il faut cultiver notre jardin

TerryM

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2353
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #71 on: September 30, 2017, 11:26:20 AM »
That's a bad analogy, Terry. Arctic sea ice loss is based on science. Whereas the Ukraine stuff is greed masqueraded as geopolitics.

On the other hand, both events are caused by the same thing: Money trying to multiply itself endlessly.


I was using the ice analogy to compare two instances of the media issuing untrue statements about factual events, and my  assumption that if you lie about one aspect of the situation, you're credibility is damaged re. further observations.


In the early days of the Ukrainian conflict there were a few tanks running about that were being reported as late model Russian tanks, and that they therefor could not be the old Soviet tanks that the separatists claimed to have obtained within the country. This was simply not true as anyone who took the trouble to read a few Wiki articles about tank design could easily verify.


I feel this is much like the fact that anyone can easily verify that the Arctic ice is not recovering, even though certain sites regularly report that it is.


While much of the Ukrainian situation is open to interpretation, some verifiable facts do stand out. The sites that misrepresented these facts have proven themselves biased in their reporting & I weigh their value with this in mind. (or simply ignore them.)


Terry

johnm33

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 769
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #72 on: September 30, 2017, 01:27:12 PM »
How/why did the USSR break up anyway? Certainly not the will of the people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union_referendum,_1991

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 774
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #73 on: October 01, 2017, 05:34:21 AM »
Actually I prefer 1st hand information from say the Canadian investigator who was on the scene within the first hour of the crash (who photographed and reported the machine gunned cockpit), and tend to ignore reports from Bellingcat, and other disinformation sources, but thanks for your concerns.

I did not know that there were people that could so easily discard the Dutch Safety Board report; the result of the work of hundreds of forensic analysts who reconstructed MH17, and carefully eliminated all conspiracy theories in their report.

And I don't understand why anyone would so easily label the Open Source analysis by Bellingcat as "disinformation", especially since all the evidence they used is openly available to anyone to verify.

And I am blown away that someone would not even look at the proven lies by the Russian Defense Ministry, who actually used radar images of the falling pieces of MH17 to blame Ukraine while 298 people fell to their death.

I would understand if someone would be critical of any aspect or detail in these investigative reports, and argue where exactly they made a mistake.

But most of all I find it baffling that, instead of looking at all that evidence, someone can actually prefer the opinion of a single OSCE observer on a park bench in Russian-occupied Donetsk, who claims himself not to be an expert, that to his "untrained eyes" it "almost looks like machine gun fire".

Frankly, I find your position an insult to reason, and an insult to the 298 innocent victims that perished on 7/17/2014.

budmantis

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1195
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #74 on: October 01, 2017, 06:46:28 AM »
I've been following the back and forth between Rob Dekker and Terry on this subject with great interest. I used to comment on this and other closely related topics, but I find I don't have a desire to invest the time it takes to get into the details, so I haven't commented much. Suffice it to say that I have a lot of respect for both Rob and Terry, but I am particularly impressed with the amount of information that Rob has been posting.

I know you guys are on separate sides of the issue, but I do appreciate the debate and the information you've both come up with.

Best Regards,

BudM

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Governor
  • *****
  • Posts: 4221
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #75 on: October 01, 2017, 10:24:36 AM »
I've been following the back and forth between Rob Dekker and Terry on this subject with great interest. I used to comment on this and other closely related topics, but I find I don't have a desire to invest the time it takes to get into the details, so I haven't commented much. Suffice it to say that I have a lot of respect for both Rob and Terry, but I am particularly impressed with the amount of information that Rob has been posting.

I know you guys are on separate sides of the issue, but I do appreciate the debate and the information you've both come up with.

Best Regards,

BudM

Same here.
Il faut cultiver notre jardin

TerryM

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2353
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #76 on: October 01, 2017, 10:32:52 AM »
I've been following the back and forth between Rob Dekker and Terry on this subject with great interest. I used to comment on this and other closely related topics, but I find I don't have a desire to invest the time it takes to get into the details, so I haven't commented much. Suffice it to say that I have a lot of respect for both Rob and Terry, but I am particularly impressed with the amount of information that Rob has been posting.

I know you guys are on separate sides of the issue, but I do appreciate the debate and the information you've both come up with.

Best Regards,

BudM


Bud
Always appreciate your comments, and I too have little, (to no) desire to invest the time it takes to get into the details.
I lived through all of this in close to real time some years ago.
We debated everything from the Cookie Monster of Maidana, through the Polite Green Men in Crimea, to the Living Dead holding the Airports as they bombarded the local apartments. All of it was gripping, fascinating and horrifying. Reliving the whole matter is simply sickening.


The truth about MH17 is that both the Russians and the US had massive surveillance on that particular area at that particular time. Either one can show the world what actually occurred, and for some reason, neither side has done so.
Is there some other operation that would be revealed? Is there some new weapon that neither side wants relieved? Is there some other reason that no one out of the loop could possibly guess?
I don't know. I do know that both sides are holding back information, and I can't even imagine why.


I'd been following observations from the region for 3 or 4 days prior to the crash, when local villagers first started reporting on the sudden increase in air traffic. No one had any idea why air traffic was being redirected, or what advantage it would provide to either side.
The Canadian observer that was one of one first to the crash site, (still smoldering IIRC), was so disturbed by his observations that he made regular pilgrimages back to the crash sight until the Ukrainians finally allowed all the international observers in.


When placing blame, ask which side benefited from the crash, and whether these benefits would have been obvious to the perpetrators at the time.


Terry


Martin Gisser

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 448
  • alias Mars Joh. P. Florifulgurator
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #77 on: October 01, 2017, 01:56:53 PM »
...
I lived through all of this in close to real time some years ago.
...
Reliving the whole matter is simply sickening.
Sometimes one should, esp. when lots of disinformation, false flags, etc. where in play...

Russian Fakebook i-war wasn't invented only last year! (One tactical strength in this black art is being real time with fake stuff...)

The truth about MH17 is that both the Russians and the US had massive surveillance on that particular area at that particular time. Either one can show the world what actually occurred, and for some reason, neither side has done so.
...
I've linked the evidence here in this thread. Ask the Dutch govt.
Plus,
Today there's also public massive surveillance out there - perhaps even more than embedded professional spies. Example: those twitter-whatsit photos posted on the net when the Russian BUK was fired.
"The universe is irrelevant for all practical purpose, so better forget about being thrown into it." --Florifulgurator

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 774
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #78 on: October 02, 2017, 07:50:49 AM »
The truth about MH17 is that both the Russians and the US had massive surveillance on that particular area at that particular time. Either one can show the world what actually occurred, and for some reason, neither side has done so.

What are you talking about ?

BOTH sides have posted their evidence.

The US has always sustained what Geoffrey Pyatt, US ambassador to Ukraine stated early on : “What happened to MH17 is not a mystery. We know that the aircraft was brought down by an SA11 missile fired from separatist territory." and the Pentagon posted the graph I posted before :



which confirms a launch site just south of Snizhne, consistent with open-source reconstructions by ukraine@war and the Bellingcat publication that Martin referred to previously.

We don't know which intel the Pentagon used to create that graph, but it is likely from IR tracking possibly by SBIRS :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-Based_Infrared_System

The Russians also presented their evidence.
Most notably on the 21st of July 2014, in a widely publicized press conference by the Russian Defense Ministry :


Before this press conference, I thought that MH17 was just an accident, and that if we all work together we can make sure it will never ever happen again.
But after this press conference, I understood that MH17 was not an 'accident'. This was a test of how far propaganda can go, and it was going to be a huge war of information. And noting Terry's opinions in this thread, 3 years after the fact, I was right.

The problem is that the Russian Defense Ministry lied in that press conference. And not just a little lie, but they lied on all accounts. Including fabricating evidence, mis-dating satellite pictures and they even lied about the radar images of the pieces of MH17 falling down, while 298 people fell to their death.
There are detailed reports from Bellingcat about each of their lies, and here is an overview article :
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/07/16/russias-colin-powell-moment-how-the-russian-governments-mh17-lies-were-exposed/

As in any crime, the lies hurt more than the crime itself.

I've personally exposed one of these lies before Bellingcat did, and I'd be happy to discuss that, or any of the other lies by the Russian Defense Ministry.

I understand that when you are living in Russia, and all you see is these lies, and never see any rebuttal, nor any evidence, that that is what you believe.
But what is really astounding is that there are still people in the west (like Terry) who ignore the Russian lies, ignore all the evidence, and go back all the way to the beginning claiming we don't know anything.

That's incomprehensible for me, and it rips open wounds inside me that I thought were closed.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2017, 08:26:16 AM by Rob Dekker »

TerryM

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2353
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #79 on: October 02, 2017, 05:51:46 PM »
Martin
I don't know whether to thank you for removing that photo, or not.
I was about to examine it as a probable example of the disinformation that has been brought to this subject.
On further thought thanks for removing what was probably some child's idea of a joke, that subsequently was picked up by the zealots and offered as a proof.


Rob
If you don't understand what I'm alluding to, then you don't really understand what was going on at that time at all.
I have assumed that you had done more than simply parrot Ukrainian talking points. Have I been wrong?
Rest assured that if you scratch even slightly beneath the surface you will discover the operation I so obliquely referenced.
Enough hints for one post.


What you both apparently want me to accept is a scenario similar to the outline below.

Putin, while at a G 20 conference in Australia, is notified that a Malaysian aircraft filled with aids researchers will be crossing through Ukrainian airspace at about the same time and place as his Presidential Jet will be crossing on a different trajectory.

He arranges to have an obsolete model of a BUC anti aircraft rocket launcher smuggled into Ukraine and driven about the countryside during daylight hours.

He has either the foresight to know that the Ukrainian air traffic control will reroute MH-17 over his killer BUC, or more likely has infiltrated the Ukrainian air traffic controllers at the highest level and forced them to steer MH-17 over the battlefield at low altitude.

He quickly infiltrates the villages near the crash scene and is assured that they will swear to not having noticed the BUC's launch, and will also attest to having seen two fighter planes trailing MH-17.

He has determined that shooting down this airliner makes strategic sense.

Being the ultimate god of 4 dimensional chess, Putin's motives will never be ascertainable by mere mortals, however:


Killing blameless AIDS researchers is unlikely to gain one the sympathy vote.
or
Bringing down an airline full of non-combatants has never been seen as noble undertaking.
or
Killing Dutchmen will sway undecided Eu votes, but not in your favor.




To most of us blowing up an airliner at this particular location, and at this particular time would seem an unlikely strategy, Putin however is a mastermind who's methods are not just unknown, but are in fact unknowable.


Everyone posting here is no doubt aware of the votes that were pending, the situation on the ground, and of course the War Games/Surveillance Systems Integrations that were ongoing.


I alas, even years later have been unable to see the upside for Russia, or the Separatists, in this matter, then again I don't see Putin as a chess player - but I wouldn't get within a block of him with a Go board. :)


Please complete this sentence:


Putin shot down M-17 in order to -


Terry

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 774
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #80 on: October 03, 2017, 06:39:17 AM »
Martin
I don't know whether to thank you for removing that photo, or not.
I was about to examine it as a probable example of the disinformation that has been brought to this subject.

Martin did not remove any photo from this thread.
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2150.msg129111.html#msg129111
See. It's still there.
Something specific you want to say about that photo, Terry ?

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 774
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #81 on: October 03, 2017, 06:46:10 AM »
If you don't understand what I'm alluding to, then you don't really understand what was going on at that time at all.
...
Rest assured that if you scratch even slightly beneath the surface you will discover the operation I so obliquely referenced.
Enough hints for one post.

Rather that "alluding to" and giving "hints", why don't you just say what's your theory about MH17, Terry, start to finish ?

What you both apparently want me to accept is a scenario similar to the outline below.

Not really. More like this scenario, for which there is an astounding amount of evidence :

- Between June 23-25, 2014, Russia’s 53rd Anti-Aircraft Missile Brigade transported vehicles within Russia to positions close to the Russian border with Ukraine. This includes Buk 332, later photographed and filmed in Ukraine on July 17 and 18, 2014.
- On July 17, 2014, Buk 332 was in Ukraine, and arrived in Donetsk in the morning. From there, while loaded onto red low-loader, it traveled eastwards through separatist-held territory, and eventually reached the town of Snizhne in the early afternoon.
- After arriving in Snizhne, Buk 332 was unloaded and drove under its own power southward, out of town.
- Buk 332 arrived at a field south of Snizhne and fired a missile that resulted in the destruction of flight MH17.
- Buk 332 was next filmed traveling east through the separatist-controlled city of Luhansk on the morning of July 18, 2014 missing one missile. Intercepted communications indicate that the missile launcher was taken into Russia shortly after this video was filmed.
- On July 21, 2014, the Russian MoD presented a series of fabricated and misleading information about the flight path of MH17, radar data, the location of the July 18, 2014 Luhansk video, and the inclusion of misdated and heavily edited satellite imagery.
- Almaz-Antey presented data that was not reflected by witness statements on the ground, any open source information, or the technical assessments made by the DSB.
- No credible evidence has been presented that shows any operational Ukrainian Buk missile launcher was near a position in range of downing MH17 on July 17, 2014.
The only credible candidate for the missile launcher that downed MH17 is Russian Buk 332, of the 53rd Anti-Aircraft Missile Brigade.

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2017/07/17/mh17-open-source-investigation-three-years-later/

TerryM

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2353
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #82 on: October 03, 2017, 08:14:24 AM »
Putin shot down MH-17 in order to -

Terry

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 774
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #83 on: October 03, 2017, 08:23:10 AM »
Putin shot down MH-17 in order to -

Terry

Your guess is at good as mine.

[edit] I think it was Jeff Wise (who mostly writes about MH370) who first noted the interesting fact that :
- First US sanctions against Russia were imposed March 6, 2014 :
https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Programs/Documents/ukraine_eo.pdf
The day after, March 7, 2014 (3/7) MH370 disappeared.
- Second US sanctions against Russia were issued July 16, 2014 :
https://www.treasury.gov/press-center/press-releases/Pages/jl2572.aspx
And look, that includes Almaz-Antey.
The day after, July 17, 2014 (7/17) MH17 was shot down.

Probably a coincidence..
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 08:43:22 AM by Rob Dekker »

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 774
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #84 on: October 03, 2017, 08:58:10 AM »
For everybody who is still reading this thread, here is some interesting information :

A BUK - TELAR like BUK 332 that shot down MH17, can by itself not distinguish between "friend-and-foo". It does not scan the secondary radar info that reveals the flight number etc.
So the guys in the BUK itself don't know what they are shooting at.
They must have been guided by info from outside. Either a "spotter" who tells them when to switch their radar on, or (more likely) a BUK command vehicle that DOES have Friend-or-Foo info.

Now remember that BUK 332 arrived on their launch position on a field just south of Snizhne at about 1pm (maybe 1:30) local time.

After that, it just sits there for 3 hours, doing nothing.
Meanwhile, dozens of airliners fly overhead as you can see in this very nice app from Correct!v :
https://correctiv.github.io/mh17/

Does anyone have any plausible explanation why that BUK would be sitting there for 3 hours, and then take out one, and only one plane : MH17, on the 17th of July ?
Either their spotters SUCK, or this plane was taken out deliberately.

[edit] If their spotters SUCK in that they can't distinguish a Ukrainian military jet from a civilian one, then WHY are Russian civilian jets still flying over Eastern Ukraine on July 24 (see the Correct!v app) ?
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 09:29:27 AM by Rob Dekker »

TerryM

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2353
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #85 on: October 03, 2017, 09:28:18 AM »
Putin shot down MH-17 in order to -

Terry

Your guess is at good as mine.

[edit] I think it was Jeff Wise (who mostly writes about MH370) who first noted the interesting fact that :
- First US sanctions against Russia were imposed March 6, 2014 :
https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Programs/Documents/ukraine_eo.pdf
The day after, March 7, 2014 (3/7) MH370 disappeared.
- Second US sanctions against Russia were issued July 16, 2014 :
https://www.treasury.gov/press-center/press-releases/Pages/jl2572.aspx
And look, that includes Almaz-Antey.
The day after, July 17, 2014 (7/17) MH17 was shot down.

Probably a coincidence..


My guess is that since there was no reason for Putin to shoot down MH-17, and in fact there are many obvious reasons why he would not benefit, he is extremely unlikely to have done so.
Reading Belingcat after all these years still makes me sick. Can't you understand that this is an advocacy site?


Why would you accuse the Americans of shooting down Malaysian Airlines flights the day after imposing sanctions on Russia? This makes no more sense than accusing Putin of shooting down MH-17. Malaysia is hardly a major player in this venue.


Putin didn't direct MH-17 over the conflict area.
Putin didn't order them to fly at a low altitude.
Putin was flying home from Australia after long meetings with the G-20.


The fact that sanctions were announced the day prior to MH-17's demise makes a shoot down by Russia far less likely, not far more likely, as Russia was hoping the Eu would not go along with the American proposal. Shooting down a neutral plane full of Europeans is hardly a way to gain European sympathy.


Terry


PS
Those damn foo fighters are at it again. Time to don your tin foil chapeau.






Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 774
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #86 on: October 03, 2017, 09:41:24 AM »
Reading Belingcat after all these years still makes me sick. Can't you understand that this is an advocacy site?
Terry, Bellingcat is an Open Source journalist site. All the evidence they present is publicly available and for anyone to verify.
Why don't you address the evidence they present instead of name calling them ?

Why would you accuse the Americans of shooting down Malaysian Airlines flights the day after imposing sanctions on Russia?
Huh ? What are you talking about ? Russian BUK 332 shot down MH17.

Putin didn't direct MH-17 over the conflict area.
MH-17 flew the same route every day. Over the conflict area. Just like hundreds of other planes.

Putin didn't order them to fly at a low altitude.
MH17 flew at FL 330, which is standard for their route.

Putin was flying home from Australia after long meetings with the G-20.
Good for him. But didn't he come from Brazil ? From a BRICS meeting ?
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 09:47:21 AM by Rob Dekker »

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 774
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #87 on: October 05, 2017, 05:15:34 AM »
Getting back to the subject of this thread, we now have discussed a number of issues :

- The allegation that the US was planning to build a Naval Base on Crimea turned out to be support for the renovation of a school in Ukraine.

- The allegation that the "West" supports Nazi's in Ukraine turned out to be restricted to delivery of goods to the Ukraine military, where the most intimidating piece of equipment are night vision goggles. [sarcasm on] Maybe the "Nazi's" in Ukraine can scare away the Russians that invaded their country by wearing these goggles [sarcasm off].

- The battalion that is so heavily blamed for being "Nazi" (Azov) turns out to have NO confirmed violations of human rights. Only a few 'allegations' that have not been confirmed and at closer investigation don't stand the test of seriousness.

- The (Nazi) "coup" in Ukraine turned out to be the democratic removal of a corrupt president after a popular uprising of millions of Ukrainians.

- All available evidence suggests that MH17 was shot down by a Russian BUK, brought in from Russia the day before, and returned to Russia the day after. The only question is if MH17 was shot down deliberately, or if it was some sort of so far unexplained colossal failure in the chain of command.

Did I miss anything ?

[edit] Yes one more issue we discussed :
- The political parties in Ukraine that were labeled as "Nazi" by some commenters here appear to be Nationalist only, with platforms similar to other Nationalist parties in Europe, and either way have single digit voter counts in Ukraine and currently have NO representation in the Ukraine Rada.

All these accusations about Nazis in Ukraine and Western support all appear to be empty Russian propaganda with no basis in fact.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 08:23:57 AM by Rob Dekker »

sidd

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1818
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #88 on: October 05, 2017, 08:22:07 AM »
Good, lets get back to the subject of this thread, which does not include airliner shootdown.

Rob chooses to believe that aid is restricted to non lethal equipment, that Svoboda is powerless, and that Azov is not really Nazi. He has given his reasons.  I have my doubts.

I have posted my evidence for decades of western support for Nazis in Ukraine, both from the government of the USA and the UCCA. Rob doubts that evidence, as is his privilege.

Let us proceed. To begin with, It might be useful if allegations of  Russian intervention were confined to the "Russia in Ukraine" thread.

sidd
« Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 08:35:37 AM by sidd »

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 774
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #89 on: October 05, 2017, 09:33:42 AM »
Oops. I forgot to mention that on the Russian side, neo-Nazis like FSB-agent Yuli Kharlamova double as Anna-presenter :



and neo-Nazi Oksana Nikadimova doubles as a journalist on OSCE missions :



Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 774
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #90 on: October 05, 2017, 09:57:07 AM »
EU sanctions against (mostly) Russians operating in Eastern Ukraine :

Council Implementing Regulation (EU) 2015/240 of 9 February 2015 implementing Regulation (EU) No 269/2014 concerning restrictive measures in respect of actions undermining or threatening the territorial integrity, sovereignty and independence of Ukraine

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A32015R0240

That includes well known war criminals such as Motorola and Givi.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Governor
  • *****
  • Posts: 4221
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #91 on: October 05, 2017, 10:33:26 AM »
But why? What is it all about? Why are the 'West' and 'Russia' fighting over Ukraine?
Il faut cultiver notre jardin

gerontocrat

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 793
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #92 on: October 05, 2017, 01:53:06 PM »
I guess I will have to write the story of what I was told in my travels in all those countries once part of the Warsaw Pact and ends in Jordan, and starts in October 1917. But it will take some time - too many threads.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"

Martin Gisser

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 448
  • alias Mars Joh. P. Florifulgurator
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #93 on: October 05, 2017, 09:08:12 PM »
But why? What is it all about? Why are the 'West' and 'Russia' fighting over Ukraine?
In short, methinks it is part of the global endgame of the fossil industrial complex: East Ukraine has lots of coal and steel industry.

Here is a Soviet propaganda poster from 1921 that says "Donbass is the heart of Russia"
(From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donbass )


--------------------
Beyond that, it is just one detail in Putin's general strategy of destabilizing democracies by sowing confusion. Esp. when they are leaning West, towards EU.

And East Ukraine is an easy target, as it is culturally dominated by Russophones, incl. a "Russian supremacist" analogon of white supremacists:
"Ukraine’s Donbas Is Like America’s Deep South"
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/alexander-motyl/alexander-motyl_b_6414802.html


On Putin psychology and the greater picture, here's a good article:
https://www.newstatesman.com/world/2016/02/how-vladimir-putin-lost-ukraine
When Putin suddenly broke out from Europe’s seven-decade peace order in February 2014, Western policymakers asked the diminished number of Kremlinologists in their midst why he was acting this way. Some, [...], pointed to fear as the Russian president’s root instinct. Putin has shown little interest in economics; he has not worried about looming inflation or capital flight, or Russia’s distorting reliance on oil and gas revenues. What he was afraid of, it seemed, was unchecked democratic contagion: as transmitted from Poles in the 1980s to restive East Germans and then Czechs in 1989, to Ukrainians in the mid-2000s, and even on to Muscovites in 2011/12 before Putin managed to stop their street protests.

[...]

Most agonising of all, in his first term as Russia’s president in the 21st century, Putin had to listen to American triumphalism about the series of pro-democracy “colour revolutions” in the streets of ex-communist Serbia in 2000, Georgia in 2003 and Ukraine in 2004. For him, as a career secret policeman, these revolutions represented no broad social yearning [...]. Rather, it was an inexplicable victory by American CIA manipulations – in what was Moscow’s own sphere of influence, by right – over the manipulations of Russia’s FSB, successor to the Soviet KGB.

[...]
(my emph.)

"Spy vs. spy" paranoia :)

http://toonopedia.com/spyvsspy.htm
"The universe is irrelevant for all practical purpose, so better forget about being thrown into it." --Florifulgurator

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 774
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #94 on: October 06, 2017, 06:03:26 AM »
But why? What is it all about? Why are the 'West' and 'Russia' fighting over Ukraine?

For starters, the 'West' is not fighting here. Fighting for peace (as in MINSK1/2) maybe but as I noted before, the most intimidating weapon the US has shipped are night vision goggles. I am not aware of any military support of any kind from any EU country. Ukraine is doing the fighting all by themselves.

So that leaves the question of why Russia is fighting. In my opinion, that is because Putin believes that Ukraine is part of Russia. Here is a very good article by CNN from March 4, 2014 (after Yanukovich was ousted but before the Crimea annexation and war in Donbass) which highlights what was really going on :

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/03/opinion/stent-putin-ukraine-russia-endgame/index.html

Interesting quote :
At the 2008 NATO summit in Bucharest, Romania, Vladimir Putin told a surprised George W. Bush, "You have to understand, George, that Ukraine is not even a country. Part of its territory is in Eastern Europe and the greater part was given to us."
That is where it starts.

Russia's aggression, in the first annexation of ANY foreign nations territory by ANY other nation since WWII and by starting a war on another part of that nation's territory, cannot be denied.

Russia's actions in Ukraine are especially disgraceful since Russia signed the Budapest memorandum (1994) under which Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons in return for a guarantee of sovereign integrity.

But note also that the EU may be partially to blame here. When Ukraine showed that it REALLY wanted to be part of Europe, and shed its tied with Russia after 70 years of Soviet suppression, the EU COULD have reached out a BIG hand, to truly HELP Ukraine with economic support and a path to European integration. Instead, the EU was reluctant and Putin offered a better deal to Yanukovich, which started the Euromaidan, and Russia's response to that.

It's late now, but the EU can still help Ukraine, economically and politically. To help them get rid of corruption and install EU law. And install a UN peace force (without Russians) all through Donbas that would remove the weapons and return the territory to Ukraine.

If it doesn't, then Ukraine will have to do it all by themselves, which will be REALLY hard while neighbor Russia is waging a hybrid war on them including not just militarily but also propaganda to make them look bad, and sucking every penny out of their economy where they can.

I hope its not loo late.

Ukraine wants to be part of Europe. Even Yanukovich ran on that platform.
And they are willing to fight for that.
Does Europe listen ?
« Last Edit: October 06, 2017, 08:06:21 AM by Rob Dekker »

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 774
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #95 on: October 07, 2017, 05:46:50 AM »
Rob chooses to believe that aid is restricted to non lethal equipment, that Svoboda is powerless, and that Azov is not really Nazi. He has given his reasons.  I have my doubts.

It's not a matter of 'believe' or 'doubt'.
We went through the evidence and that is where it leads us ; that this was all Russian propaganda.
If you have evidence to support your position, please bring it on.

sidd

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1818
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #96 on: October 07, 2017, 06:54:13 AM »
Is this better ?

Rob has, from, the posted evidence, come to the conclusion that any putative Western support for any putative Ukrainian Nazis is Russian propaganda.

I have no issue with that.  I hope he has no issue with the fact that I differ with his view.

sidd



Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 774
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #97 on: October 07, 2017, 07:26:27 AM »
Is this better ?

Rob has, from, the posted evidence, come to the conclusion that any putative Western support for any putative Ukrainian Nazis is Russian propaganda.

I have no issue with that.  I hope he has no issue with the fact that I differ with his view.

sidd

Yes, that is better. The remaining question is : If you are looking at the same evidence, then how can you come to a different conclusion ?
Is there some evidence we missed ?

johnm33

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 769
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #98 on: October 07, 2017, 01:07:04 PM »
"Why ?" Simplest amswer is that Russia does not want Nato any closer to Moscow. They know that some parts of the American elite are planning for a first strike against Russia, the missile sheild [against Iranian threat?] in Poland and Romania is, according to VT useless, it has only been tested against missiles where it has full prior knowledge of the launch point and target and has a little more than a 50% success rate, however the installations can be altered by changing the warhead and programming to offensive weapons. The Russians know this and have, they say, assets in place to cause one of the Canary islands drop into the Atlantic, apparently one of them has a long lateral fault that previously slipped then stopped, is that even possible ? I don't know, but if it did slip it would cause a massive tsunami on the east coast of the US, iirc 300m high moving at 700kph, so i suppose the Russians keep a close eye on whether the american elite is abandoning the east coast in a hurry. Plus they have clearly stated, more than once, that when the missiles are changed there will be no further warnings, whatever this action is of course it will be painted as an act of aggression.
Russia despite the depradations which followed the october revolution, 44,000,000 dead by the 50s, and despite being the most resource rich state in the world, still have an attatchment to the Donbass which was given to Ukraine by Lenin, against the will of the people, just as the Ukrainian Krushchev gave the Crimea to Ukraine, and would welcome them back in a heartbeat, except this would alter the demographics of the Ukraine and make it even more EU friendly. That means they won't sit back whilst the east is ethnically cleansed. Putin mentions it here https://www.newcoldwar.org/23107-2/
On another level there are news sources with which to confirm any set of prejudices, here are some more contrarian [to the msm] links, http://thesaker.is/?s=mh17 http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/03/ https://www.veteranstoday.com/search/?cx=partner-pub-1138693856809059%3A6nrbu-wsp4y&q=ukraine&cof=FORID%3A11&locale-search=en-US&siteurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.veteranstoday.com%2F
choose for yourself what you believe.

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 774
    • View Profile
Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #99 on: October 09, 2017, 05:59:21 AM »
I want to make a few comments about news and what we believe, and the alternative of Open Source Journalism.

For any event that happen around the world, we rely on news sources to report to us what happened. Typically we have some news sources that we trust and some we don't trust. Even if we trust a news source, that source often repeats some statement by an authority. For example, any news bulletin typically has something like this "this authority investigated and says this, and authority investigated says that". Now if the statements from the two authorities differ, then it is left over to us to decide which one we believe. And that is very subjective.

I think that explains why Terry believes that we know very little about MH17 while in fact we know a LOT, why sidd believes that Azov is a Nazi battalion and the West sponsors Nazis in Ukraine while there is no evidence of that, and why johnm33 refers to conspiracy theorists and "choose for yourself what you believe".

To top it off, Trump is now telling us that we cannot trust the traditional news that most people rely on, and implicitly suggesting that sources he promotes (like Breitbart and Alex Jones) are more reliable.

This standard system of how we obtain news is a total mess. And for cases that are really important (like MH17) that is a BIG, BIG problem, since the voices of authority may biased or even lying.

It would be much better if we can do the research ourselves.
If you have all the evidence, then you don't need any authority to tell you what to think.

That is why Open Source Journalism (as sites like Bellingcat and ukraine@war initiated it) are so valuable. The use ONLY evidence that is available publicly to form an opinion. They even ask other people to challenge their findings or provide other publicly available evidence.

One example : Already back in early September 2014, Bellingcat found out that the BUK that shot down MH17 originated from the 53rd BUK brigade in Kursk, Russia :
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2014/09/08/images-show-the-buk-that-downed-flight-mh17-inside-russia-controlled-by-russian-troops/
This is more than a year before the JIT finally made a statement of authority confirming that the BUK that shot down MH17 came from Russia.

It also works the other way around : Bellingcat used the same Open Source Journalism to PROVE that the Russian Defense Ministry was lying in their July 21, 2014 press conference where they blamed Ukraine for the disaster.

Do you guys see for Open Source Journalism that it does not matter what Bellingcat's background is, or what their opinion is, or their affiliation, or their source funding, because ALL the evidence is available to ANYONE willing to verify their findings.

See that in this day and age of misinformation and rampant propaganda, that Open Source Journalism may be then ONLY way to find out the truth about anything.