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jdallen

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #500 on: April 25, 2018, 10:43:46 PM »
ADS NIPR JAXA, ASI Extent.

April 24th, 2018: 12,794,137 km2, a drop of -9,060 km2.
2018 is the second lowest on record.
2018 is 160,465 km2 above 2016 and 38,713 km2 under 2017.
Interesting how both 2017 and 2018 are currently running in parallel.
This space for Rent.

Juan C. García

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #501 on: April 26, 2018, 06:13:36 AM »
[ADS-NIPR-JAXA] ASI Extent.

Well, the drop increased today.  ;)

April 25th, 2018: 12,761,033 km2, a drop of -33,104 km2.
2018 is the second lowest on record.

2018 is 165,215 km2 above 2016 and 65,325 km2 under 2017.
Which is the best answer to Sep-2012 ASI lost (compared to 1979-2000)?
50% [NSIDC Extent] or
73% [PIOMAS Volume]

Volume is harder to measure than extent, but 3-dimensional space is real, 2D's hide ~50% thickness gone.
-> IPCC/NSIDC trends [based on extent] underestimate the real speed of ASI lost.

gerontocrat

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #502 on: April 26, 2018, 07:35:03 AM »
JAXA DATA - Extent 12,761,033 km2(April 25, 2018)

Nothing to add to Juan's posting except the tables.
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Juan C. García

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #503 on: April 27, 2018, 06:01:54 AM »
[ADS-NIPR-JAXA] ASI Extent.

The drop is getting bigger:

April 26th, 2018: 12,708,674 km2, a drop of -52,359 km2.
2018 is the second lowest on record.

2018 is 138,269 km2 above 2016 and 101,601 km2 under 2017.
Which is the best answer to Sep-2012 ASI lost (compared to 1979-2000)?
50% [NSIDC Extent] or
73% [PIOMAS Volume]

Volume is harder to measure than extent, but 3-dimensional space is real, 2D's hide ~50% thickness gone.
-> IPCC/NSIDC trends [based on extent] underestimate the real speed of ASI lost.

gerontocrat

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #504 on: April 27, 2018, 09:50:41 AM »
JAXA Extent 12,708,674 km2(April 26, 2018)

Nothing to add to Juan's posting except the tables.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

gerontocrat

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #505 on: April 27, 2018, 03:28:02 PM »
NSIDC Arctic Total Extent (daily extent) at 26 April 13.443 million km2.
The contrast with JAXA data is pronounced.

Extent is up by 50k km2 from 4 days before, i.e. extent loss has stalled.

NSIDC AREA DATA (5 day trailing average) AS AT 26 APRIL

Overall area loss has also slowed to about 8k on the 26th. Excluding the Hudson and Okhotsk Seas (often considered as physically separate from the Arctic Ocean) area loss has morphed into area gain.
Total Area  without Hudson and Okhotsk   
Date   Area change Km2
18-Apr   -24251
19-Apr   -29493
20-Apr   -24356
21-Apr   76
22-Apr   2531
23-Apr   -190
24-Apr   12677
25-Apr   10548
26-Apr   5304

On any measure of extent or area NSIDC says the Arctic Ocean is having a mini(?)-break from the melting season.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

Juan C. García

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #506 on: April 28, 2018, 05:51:24 AM »
[ADS-NIPR-JAXA] ASI Extent.

April 27th, 2018: 12,679,541 km2, a drop of -29,133 km2.
2018 is the second lowest on record.
2018 is 180,543 km2 above 2016 and 120,798 km2 under 2017
Which is the best answer to Sep-2012 ASI lost (compared to 1979-2000)?
50% [NSIDC Extent] or
73% [PIOMAS Volume]

Volume is harder to measure than extent, but 3-dimensional space is real, 2D's hide ~50% thickness gone.
-> IPCC/NSIDC trends [based on extent] underestimate the real speed of ASI lost.

Thomas Barlow

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #507 on: April 28, 2018, 09:48:33 PM »
Is someone still doing the Arctic Ocean extent graph, year to year comparison?
ie. N. Hemisphere sea-ice, but with all peripheral seas and fjords taken out? - eg. Hudson Bay, Greenland Sea, CAA, Baffin Bay, Nares, taken out (only because I think the Arctic Ocean itself, without all that other stuff, is the best way to get an idea of the real state of the Arctic Ocean icepack )

oren

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #508 on: April 28, 2018, 10:48:05 PM »
Wipneus has nice charts of Arctic Basin (as he defines it) area and extent on his website,  I can post the link tomorrow if you can't find it.
Note at this time of year it's not very useful, it becomes much more interesting during summer.

Juan C. García

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #509 on: April 29, 2018, 06:29:46 AM »
[ADS-NIPR-JAXA] ASI Extent.

April 28th, 2018: 12,641,635 km2, a drop of -37,906 km2.
2018 is the second lowest on record.
2018 is 227,801 km2 above 2016 and 116,518 km2 under 2017
Which is the best answer to Sep-2012 ASI lost (compared to 1979-2000)?
50% [NSIDC Extent] or
73% [PIOMAS Volume]

Volume is harder to measure than extent, but 3-dimensional space is real, 2D's hide ~50% thickness gone.
-> IPCC/NSIDC trends [based on extent] underestimate the real speed of ASI lost.

oren

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #510 on: April 29, 2018, 07:25:38 AM »
Wipneus has nice charts of Arctic Basin (as he defines it) area and extent on his website,  I can post the link tomorrow if you can't find it.
Note at this time of year it's not very useful, it becomes much more interesting during summer.
https://sites.google.com/site/arctischepinguin/home/amsr2/grf/basin-area-multiprod.png
https://sites.google.com/site/arctischepinguin/home/amsr2/grf/basin-extent-multiprod.png
Note the charts are still not updated for 2018.

Wipneus

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #511 on: April 29, 2018, 09:58:27 AM »
Note the charts are still not updated for 2018.

Fixed  :)

gerontocrat

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #512 on: April 29, 2018, 09:59:15 AM »
JAXA EXTENT 12,641,635 km2(April 28, 2018)

Extent loss continues to dawdle as it has over the last week or so - below average but greater than 2017 so far.
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"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

gerontocrat

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #513 on: April 29, 2018, 03:44:13 PM »
NSIDC Arctic Total Extent (daily extent) at 28 April 13.443 million km2.

Extent is down by 129k km2 from 2days before, i.e. extent loss has resumed. This is not showing in the 5-day area data YET.

NSIDC AREA DATA (5 day trailing average) AS AT 28 APRIL

Overall area loss is a modest 13k on the 28th. Excluding the Hudson and Okhotsk Seas (often considered as physically separate from the Arctic Ocean) area loss has morphed into area gain.
Total Area without Hudson and Okhotsk   
Date   Area change Km2
19-Apr   -29493
20-Apr   -24356
21-Apr   76
22-Apr   2531
23-Apr   -190
24-Apr   12677
25-Apr   10548
26-Apr   5304
27-Apr   2900
28-Apr   3416

On any measure of extent or area NSIDC says Arctic Ocean Area is having a mini(?)-break from the melting season at the moment.

Individual Seas
The Okhotsk Sea area loss was 21k (7% of remaining area).
Bering Sea area loss is now less than 2k per day, but that is still around 7% of remaining area er day. The Chukchi is now losing area again, the Beaufort has just started.
Other seas show marginal change.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2018, 07:20:06 PM by gerontocrat »
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
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Wherestheice

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #514 on: April 29, 2018, 07:07:55 PM »
With all this stalling melt, a big drop seems likely right?
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Juan C. García

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #515 on: April 30, 2018, 06:27:26 AM »
With all this stalling melt, a big drop seems likely right?

Hi, Wherestheice.

In my opinión, 2018 has not stall. 2016 was terrible on April and specially on May. So, it is pretty bad to be the second lowest on record.

Anyway, it is getting late for me and the JAXA data has not being updated yet. So, if anybody gets the information updated, please feel free to post it.
The link is: https://ads.nipr.ac.jp/vishop/#/extent

Thanks!

Which is the best answer to Sep-2012 ASI lost (compared to 1979-2000)?
50% [NSIDC Extent] or
73% [PIOMAS Volume]

Volume is harder to measure than extent, but 3-dimensional space is real, 2D's hide ~50% thickness gone.
-> IPCC/NSIDC trends [based on extent] underestimate the real speed of ASI lost.

oren

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #516 on: April 30, 2018, 06:59:48 AM »
As I have dealings with the Japanese stock market, I happen to know that today is a holiday in Japan, so quite possibly there will be no data release today.
The same could happen on Thursday/Friday/Saturday this week, as all of these are national holidays as well.

Wherestheice

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #517 on: April 30, 2018, 08:49:21 AM »
With all this stalling melt, a big drop seems likely right?

Hi, Wherestheice.

In my opinión, 2018 has not stall. 2016 was terrible on April and specially on May. So, it is pretty bad to be the second lowest on record.

Anyway, it is getting late for me and the JAXA data has not being updated yet. So, if anybody gets the information updated, please feel free to post it.
The link is: https://ads.nipr.ac.jp/vishop/#/extent

Thanks!

Yes that makes sense. Thanks for reply!
"When the ice goes..... F***

gerontocrat

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #518 on: April 30, 2018, 02:26:10 PM »
NSIDC Daily Extent dropped by 2k km2 on 29th April
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
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Daniel B.

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #519 on: April 30, 2018, 02:56:50 PM »
With all this stalling melt, a big drop seems likely right?

Hi, Wherestheice.

In my opinión, 2018 has not stall. 2016 was terrible on April and specially on May. So, it is pretty bad to be the second lowest on record.

Anyway, it is getting late for me and the JAXA data has not being updated yet. So, if anybody gets the information updated, please feel free to post it.
The link is: https://ads.nipr.ac.jp/vishop/#/extent

Thanks!

Yes that makes sense. Thanks for reply!

The melt has stalled if you examine the last week only.  For the season, the total melt is slightly less than average.  However, the lower melt may be entirely due to the lower starting sea ice.  If you plot the melt compared to the maximum, 2018 falls squarely on the trend line.  The largest melts on this date occurred in 1989, 1990, and 1983.  The lowest occurred in 2009, 1999, and 2011.  April melt does not portend anything with regards to the September minimum.

Juan C. García

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #520 on: May 01, 2018, 07:18:08 AM »
As I have dealings with the Japanese stock market, I happen to know that today is a holiday in Japan, so quite possibly there will be no data release today.
The same could happen on Thursday/Friday/Saturday this week, as all of these are national holidays as well.

Thank you for your answer, Oren.

Again, it is late for me and the JAXA data has not being updated. So, I appreciate if someone else brings the updated information.

The link is: https://ads.nipr.ac.jp/vishop/#/extent
Good night or good morning!
Which is the best answer to Sep-2012 ASI lost (compared to 1979-2000)?
50% [NSIDC Extent] or
73% [PIOMAS Volume]

Volume is harder to measure than extent, but 3-dimensional space is real, 2D's hide ~50% thickness gone.
-> IPCC/NSIDC trends [based on extent] underestimate the real speed of ASI lost.

Kica68

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #521 on: May 01, 2018, 09:19:03 AM »
Hi. Just checked ADS_NIPR on Twitter and found this tweet:

ADS_NIPR‏ @ADS_NIPR · 5h5 hours ago 
5月1日から2日までメンテナンスを実施するためADSのサービスは停止いたします。
ADS services is stopped to do H/W maintenance from May 1st to 2nd.

https://twitter.com/ads_nipr

gerontocrat

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #522 on: May 01, 2018, 11:24:54 AM »
Hi. Just checked ADS_NIPR on Twitter and found this tweet:

ADS_NIPR‏ @ADS_NIPR · 5h5 hours ago 
5月1日から2日までメンテナンスを実施するためADSのサービスは停止いたします。
ADS services is stopped to do H/W maintenance from May 1st to 2nd.

https://twitter.com/ads_nipr
I hope it is more to do Japan's Golden Week of holidays and they've gone to the beach or the park or.....

Dedication to duty can be overdone.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
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"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

gerontocrat

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #523 on: May 01, 2018, 03:08:32 PM »
It is May 1st and I am not out there protesting against something. Shame.

Before I start the notes of where NSIDC area data is at 30th April, Robertscribbler.com says "Major Arctic Warming Event Predicted For the Coming Week". Interestingly, he uses a cci-renalyzer image of the maximum temperatures over the next five days to make his point (maximum temperatures matter more than average temperatures  -says Gerontocrat).

NSIDC Total Area as at 30th April.(5 day trailing average)

The first table attached shows how area loss has increased to 40k on the 30th from less than 20k per day over the last two days. When Hudson Bay and the Okhotsk Sea are excluded, this goes down to a modest 18k.

Pacific Side
The Okhotsk has been losing area at 20k a day for nearly 10 days now, and is at a bit above 25% of its 1980's average maximum. (Graph attached below).
The Bering Sea is now at less than 5% of its average maximum and is now more or less irrelevant.
Instead the Chukchi Sea has lost area at a still modest but significant rate - on the 30th an area loss of 6k.
The Beaufort sea changes are minimal.

Atlantic Side
Baffin Bay has lost modest amounts.

Both the Greenland and Barents seas have gained area.
The Laptev and Kara seas have lost and gained area over the last 10 days.
The Central Arctic has gained area.

If it was not for the 20k a day area loss of ice in the Okhotsk, Arctic Sea Ice area would have increased over the last 10 days. I do call that a stall.

The question is what will the effect be of the major temperature increase on the Atlantic side over the next week ?
« Last Edit: May 01, 2018, 03:18:30 PM by gerontocrat »
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
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"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

Thomas Barlow

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #524 on: May 01, 2018, 04:04:06 PM »
Note the charts are still not updated for 2018.
Fixed  :)

Thanks, Wipneus and Oren.
This is great !
To me this is what really counts. The state of the Arctic Ocean.
https://sites.google.com/site/arctischepinguin/home/amsr2/grf/basin-extent-multiprod.png
« Last Edit: May 03, 2018, 06:16:22 AM by Thomas Barlow »

Dharma Rupa

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #525 on: May 01, 2018, 04:34:00 PM »
It is May 1st and I am not out there protesting against something. Shame.

I know this is off-topic, but, it is May 1st and I am going to have my yearly shave -- head and beard.

DavidR

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #526 on: May 02, 2018, 02:16:55 AM »
Reviewing April it seems to  be the worst predictor for summer extent. The attached graph shows the rankings (1 = Lowest) for the past 15 years based on the 31 year NSIDC record since they switched to daily reporting.  As can be seen some years ranked as high as 24.  Up until late March none of these years had ranked above 19. From the end of May only 2004 will rank higher than 18 until the end of September.

As an aside extent drops on May 1st have been around 200K for the last few years  for technical reasons so  we should expect a big drop tomorrow. 2017 dropped 259K between April 30 and May 1st.
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gerontocrat

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #527 on: May 02, 2018, 02:17:24 PM »
Hi. Just checked ADS_NIPR on Twitter and found this tweet:

ADS_NIPR‏ @ADS_NIPR · 5h5 hours ago 
5月1日から2日までメンテナンスを実施するためADSのサービスは停止いたします。
ADS services is stopped to do H/W maintenance from May 1st to 2nd.

https://twitter.com/ads_nipr
I hope it is more to do Japan's Golden Week of holidays and they've gone to the beach or the park or.....

Dedication to duty can be overdone.

Jaxa is on holiday but they have just put up data for the 29th April. Extent down by a slightly below average 39k.

Perhaps they will put Apr 30 and May 1 during the next few hours?
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

Juan C. García

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #528 on: May 03, 2018, 06:14:13 AM »
[ADS-NIPR-JAXA] ASI Extent.

Date             2006            2016              2017             2018        Drop 2018
April 28   12,782,805    12,413,834    12,758,153    12,641,635    
April 29   12,730,348    12,347,980    12,713,247    12,602,757    -38,878
April 30   12,661,451    12,293,447    12,674,471    12,574,787    -27,970
May   1    12,558,242    12,195,413    12,648,560    12,556,176    -18,611
May   2    12,444,466    12,164,312    12,585,016    12,521,612    -34,564


May 2nd, 2018: 12,521,612 km2.
2018 is the third lowest on record.
On May 2nd, the year 2018 is 357,300 km2 above 2016, 77,146 km2 above 2006 and 63,404 km2 under 2017.
Which is the best answer to Sep-2012 ASI lost (compared to 1979-2000)?
50% [NSIDC Extent] or
73% [PIOMAS Volume]

Volume is harder to measure than extent, but 3-dimensional space is real, 2D's hide ~50% thickness gone.
-> IPCC/NSIDC trends [based on extent] underestimate the real speed of ASI lost.

Juan C. García

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #529 on: May 03, 2018, 06:39:14 AM »
The northern hemisphere sea-ice extent (or volume) doesn't matter.
Only the Arctic Ocean sea-ice extent matters.

With the heat, specially on the Atlantic, I believe that we will see some drops on Okhotsk, Hudson, Baffin, Greenland Sea and Barentsz, so I think that 2018 will be the second lowest on record in a couple of weeks.
Which is the best answer to Sep-2012 ASI lost (compared to 1979-2000)?
50% [NSIDC Extent] or
73% [PIOMAS Volume]

Volume is harder to measure than extent, but 3-dimensional space is real, 2D's hide ~50% thickness gone.
-> IPCC/NSIDC trends [based on extent] underestimate the real speed of ASI lost.

gerontocrat

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #530 on: May 03, 2018, 10:12:38 AM »
The northern hemisphere sea-ice extent (or volume) doesn't matter.
Only the Arctic Ocean sea-ice extent matters.

There is 1.4 million km2 of open ocean on May 2 receiving a strong dose of solar radiation where in the 1980's there was ice-covered ocean. (In 2016 it was 1.8 million km2.) This is a positive feedback mechanism for increase in ocean heat content.

While the peripheral seas are ice-covered this inhibits the transfer of heat into and the effect of wind/wave action on the CAB.

Sea ice extent in the periphery certainly matters to polar bars and walruses, whales, orcas, etc who are moving into regions that were ice-covered.

Sea ice extent in the periphery certainly matters to the humans watching their shores eroded and their livelihood changed forever due to earlier sea-ice melt.

So I, for one, will continue to take a keen interest in changes to extent, area, and volume for the Arctic as a whole and individual seas within it (including the timing and extent of sea-ice loss in the central seas of the Arctic Basin as a whole and individually).
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
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"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

gerontocrat

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #531 on: May 03, 2018, 10:27:19 AM »
JAXA has returned from holiday - Extent 12,521,612 km2(May 2, 2018)

Only to add to Juan's post that:
- the graph shows extent loss remains below average,
- the possibility of a minimum below 4 million km2 diminsihes,
BUT:
- only 15% of the melting season has passed,
- the data does not yet reflect the intensifying heat moving northwards into very high latitudes on the Atlantic side for the next week or so (that may even impact on the CAB seas).
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

gerontocrat

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #532 on: May 03, 2018, 04:16:32 PM »
NSIDC Total Area as at 2nd AprilMAY.(5 day trailing average)
Another whoops


The first table attached shows how area loss has increased to 70k per day over the last two days. When Hudson Bay and the Okhotsk Sea are excluded, this is still 40k per day.
The 2nd of May saw area loss in all seas - a first for this melting season.

Pacific Side
The Okhotsk is still losing area at 20k a day.
The Bering Sea is now at 15k area (less than 5% of its average maximum) and is now more or less irrelevant. At this rate area will be zero in about two weeks
Instead the Chukchi Sea has lost area at a still modest but significant rate - on 2 May an area loss of 4k.
The Beaufort sea changes are still minimal.

Atlantic Side
Baffin Bay has lost modest amounts.

The Greenland has lost 20k of area in the last two days. The Barents area loss is small..
The Laptev Sea has lost 9k over the last two days. The Kara Sea losses of area are minimal.
The Central Arctic has gained area.

In the last two days area loss overall has increased strongly.

The question still is what will the effect of the major temperature increase on the Atlantic side be over the next week ?
« Last Edit: May 03, 2018, 10:07:13 PM by gerontocrat »
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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #533 on: May 03, 2018, 09:44:03 PM »
"NSIDC Total Area as at 2nd April.(5 day trailing average)"

Don't you mean May?

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #534 on: May 03, 2018, 09:44:39 PM »
The northern hemisphere sea-ice extent (or volume) doesn't matter.
Only the Arctic Ocean sea-ice extent matters.

There is 1.4 million km2 of open ocean on May 2 receiving a strong dose of solar radiation where in the 1980's there was ice-covered ocean. (In 2016 it was 1.8 million km2.) This is a positive feedback mechanism for increase in ocean heat content.

While the peripheral seas are ice-covered this inhibits the transfer of heat into and the effect of wind/wave action on the CAB.

Sea ice extent in the periphery certainly matters to polar bars and walruses, whales, orcas, etc who are moving into regions that were ice-covered.

Sea ice extent in the periphery certainly matters to the humans watching their shores eroded and their livelihood changed forever due to earlier sea-ice melt.

So I, for one, will continue to take a keen interest in changes to extent, area, and volume for the Arctic as a whole and individual seas within it (including the timing and extent of sea-ice loss in the central seas of the Arctic Basin as a whole and individually).
There could still be ice in Baffin Bay, CAA, and others, when the Arctic Ocean starts to warm up due to loss of albedo. A lot of talk is about 'lowest' or '2nd lowest'. So the lowest Arctic Ocean extent may be telling us something that the northern hemisphere extent is not. I'm talking about the overall picture of ice extent, not animals and people. That is a different topic. I'm asking the question, could a disaster unfold in the Arctic Ocean extent, even if the northern hemisphere extent is in 2nd or 4th place for the time of year? If blue ocean extends even a little more than usual in the Arctic Ocean, I'm hoping that the heating effect does not come to a tipping point in the ocean, or something more like exponential heating.
It would be interesting to compare the lowest northern hemisphere extents over the years in September, with the lowest Arctic Ocean extents over the years in September. I wonder if it would show correlations or very little precise correlation between northern hemisphere sea ice extent and Arctic Ocean sea ice extent. That could tell a lot about what is happening overall.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2018, 09:54:13 PM by Thomas Barlow »

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #535 on: May 03, 2018, 10:02:33 PM »
The topic is 2018 sea ice area and extent data. Let's stay on it and take the more complex discussions elsewhere. Thank you.
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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #536 on: May 03, 2018, 10:08:29 PM »
"NSIDC Total Area as at 2nd April.(5 day trailing average)"

Don't you mean May?
Whoops! Thanks - methinks I had better slow down - or stop.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2018, 10:25:45 PM by gerontocrat »
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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #537 on: May 04, 2018, 12:14:07 PM »
JAXA's on holiday - so so am I
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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #538 on: May 04, 2018, 07:04:28 PM »
Just a little proposal to move "Hudson Bay" into the peripherical seas table so both tables have the same number of columns, and Hudson Bay is quite far away from CAB.
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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #539 on: May 04, 2018, 07:19:15 PM »
Just a little proposal to move "Hudson Bay" into the peripherical seas table so both tables have the same number of columns, and Hudson Bay is quite far away from CAB.

I am thinking of parking both Hudson Bay and the Okhotsk Sea to one side as they are so physically separate from the main Arctic Ocean.

But my brain hurts - even my computer is protesting at all the data lugged around dealing with all the NSIDC data linked to all my analyses. (I always work indirectly with the NSIDC spreadsheets to ensure they are never altered by me inside my machine)
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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #540 on: May 05, 2018, 06:59:07 AM »
Just a little proposal to move "Hudson Bay" into the peripherical seas table so both tables have the same number of columns, and Hudson Bay is quite far away from CAB.

I am thinking of parking both Hudson Bay and the Okhotsk Sea to one side as they are so physically separate from the main Arctic Ocean.


Add Bering, as it is functionally just a buffer that prevents early melt in the Arctic Proper... But your human health first, of course. These are hard times with people talking of f.e. healthy economy as if economy could have diseases. ::) ;) 8)

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #541 on: May 05, 2018, 11:01:16 AM »
Just a little proposal to move "Hudson Bay" into the peripherical seas table so both tables have the same number of columns, and Hudson Bay is quite far away from CAB.

I am thinking of parking both Hudson Bay and the Okhotsk Sea to one side as they are so physically separate from the main Arctic Ocean.


Add Bering, as it is functionally just a buffer that prevents early melt in the Arctic Proper... But your human health first, of course. These are hard times with people talking of f.e. healthy economy as if economy could have diseases. ::) ;) 8)
The Bering Sea is important - being the plug inhibiting warmth, waves etc entering the main Arctic Ocean. How quickly that plug is removed matters, which is why it needs to stay.

Incidentally, the Bering Sea is currently demonstrating that abrupt sea-ice loss can happen. (The Pacific end of the Arctic, especially the Bering and Chukchi areas, apparently have had the largest increase in air temperature within the Arctic over the last few years).
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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #542 on: May 05, 2018, 11:42:16 AM »
But then again, abrupt sea ice loss can turn around into abrupt sea ice gain.
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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #543 on: May 05, 2018, 12:22:16 PM »
NSIDC produced their April analysis on May 3rd. http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #544 on: May 05, 2018, 03:07:55 PM »
NSIDC Total Area as at 4 May (5 day trailing average)

The first table attached shows how area loss has increased to 70k per day over the last 4 days. When Hudson Bay and the Okhotsk Sea are excluded, this is still over 50k per day.

Pacific Side
The Okhotsk is still losing area at 20k a day.
The Bering Sea is now at 15k area (less than 5% of its average maximum) and is now more or less irrelevant. At this rate area will be zero in about two weeks
Chukchi Sea area loss slowed to standstill.
The Beaufort sea changes are still minimal.

Atlantic Side

The question was what will the effect of the major temperature increase on the Atlantic side be over the next week ?
The answer so far is - significant. Except for Baffin Bay - increasing in area.

In contrast :
- The Greenland has lost 40k of area in the last two days.
- The Barents area loss has suddenly grown to 15k
- The Laptev and Kara Sea losses of area are small but measurable
- The Central Arctic has lost 10k per day for the last two days.
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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #545 on: May 05, 2018, 10:52:11 PM »
There is something very striking about the conversation here tracking the beginning of the melt season. When I 1st came here, the conversation was about cloudless high pressure, insolation and melt ponds. We now talk about warm weather intrusions and 2m temperature anomalies.

I don't know that this is a good thing.

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #546 on: May 05, 2018, 10:57:29 PM »
There is something very striking about the conversation here tracking the beginning of the melt season. When I 1st came here, the conversation was about cloudless high pressure, insolation and melt ponds. We now talk about warm weather intrusions and 2m temperature anomalies.

I don't know that this is a good thing.

Not to go too far off-topic, but warm weather intrusions, inevitably coupled with cloudy conditions at this time of year, are important for melt onset, ie snow melting on top of the ice. This snow often refreezes, but is then more vulnerable to solar radiation. That's when the high pressure comes in and gets preconditioning through melt ponds on the road.

Both are important, depending on the timing.
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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #547 on: May 06, 2018, 07:32:48 AM »
But then again, abrupt sea ice loss can turn around into abrupt sea ice gain.
Gain at this point in the Barentzs isn't necessarily a good thing, as probability indicates, it will all be gone by the end of the melt season.
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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #548 on: May 06, 2018, 02:23:41 PM »
There is something very striking about the conversation here tracking the beginning of the melt season. When I 1st came here, the conversation was about cloudless high pressure, insolation and melt ponds. We now talk about warm weather intrusions and 2m temperature anomalies.

I don't know that this is a good thing.

Probably because we understand a bit more since the 2012 season.

Cloudless high pressure doesn't do nearly as much if it occurs on fresh, unbroken snowfall. Strong warm air advection followed by clear skies does significant damage, especially if there's some decent inversion-weakening or breaking wind to go with it.

There's a reason Chinook winds are called "snow-eaters".

The CAB had virtually no WAA events before July last year and as a result survived mostly intact.

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #549 on: May 06, 2018, 04:18:30 PM »
NSIDC Total Area as at 5 May (5 day trailing average)

The first table attached shows how area loss has increased to 70k per day over the last 5 days. When Hudson Bay, the Okhotsk Sea and the St. Lawrence are excluded, this is still over 50k per day.

Pacific Side
The Okhotsk is still losing area at 20k a day.
The Bering Sea at this rate area will be zero in about two weeks.

Chukchi Sea area loss slowed to standstill.
The Beaufort Sea is gainingb area.

Atlantic Side

The question was and still is what will the effect of the major temperature increase on the Atlantic side be over the next week ? The answer so far is - significant. Except for Baffin Bay - increasing in area.

In contrast :
- The Greenland has lost 58k of area in the last three days.
- The Barents area loss has grown to 23k on 5 May
- The Laptev and Kara Sea losses of area are small but measurable
- The Central Arctic has lost 40k per day over the last three days.
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