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Jim Pettit

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1000 on: July 10, 2018, 02:13:03 PM »
NSIDC ASI extent increased for a second day, dropping that metric back even further, to 12th place. July daily increases aren't unheard of, but they are fairly rare; since 2010, there have only been 12 of them, with two of those over the past two days. And in fact, yesterday's increase of 71k was the single largest one-day July increase since at least 2000.

At this moment, it seems likely (though no way guaranteed) that 2018 NSIDC extent will end up at or above 5M km2. Even a finish identical to 2012's monstrous August drop would render a rather quotidian 4.38M km2.

Neven

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1001 on: July 10, 2018, 02:36:34 PM »
When extent goes up, and area goes down, area divided by extent (in other words, compactness) will inevitably go down. 2018 still lowest on record:
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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1002 on: July 10, 2018, 04:30:52 PM »
NSIDC Total Area as at 8 July (5 day trailing average =  6,410,311 km2
This is down to just 45 k above the 2010-2017 average


Total Area loss 131K, Central Seas 89 k, Periphery loss 27 k, Other Seas loss 24 k  

Analysis of individual seas.

Pacific Side
- The Okhotsk Sea area is 5k,
- The Bering Sea area is 2 k,
- Chukchi Sea loss 3k,
- Beaufort Sea gain 1 k,
Area loss slowed even more.
Atlantic Side
- Baffin Sea loss 10 k,
- Greenland Sea loss 5 k,
- Barents Sea loss 2 k - Barents Sea area is 22k, less than 3% of 1980's maximum, i.e. melting finished for all practical purposes.
- The Kara Sea area loss 13 k.
- The Laptev Sea area gain 2 k  .

CAB
- The Central Arctic Sea loss 52 k,
- The Canadian Archipelago loss 7 k,
- East Siberian Sea loss 18 k .

Other seas
- St Lawrence area at 2 k,
- Hudson Bay area loss 24 k.

It is the Central Arctic Sea that is providing the drama at the moment - 159k loss over the last three days.

Area loss accelerated still above average - NSIDC Area now down close to the 2010's average. Contrast with daily extent increases - see Jim's post below

Quote
Posted by: Jim Pettit
Today at 02:13:03 PM
NSIDC ASI extent increased for a second day, dropping that metric back even further, to 12th place. July daily increases aren't unheard of, but they are fairly rare; since 2010, there have only been 12 of them, with two of those over the past two days. And in fact, yesterday's increase of 71k was the single largest one-day July increase since at least 2000.

At this moment, it seems likely (though no way guaranteed) that 2018 NSIDC extent will end up at or above 5M km2. Even a finish identical to 2012's monstrous August drop would render a rather quotidian 4.38M km2.
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Phil.

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1003 on: July 10, 2018, 04:43:41 PM »
When extent goes up, and area goes down, area divided by extent (in other words, compactness) will inevitably go down. 2018 still lowest on record:

This suggests to me that the arctic is in a different state than previous years, perhaps more dispersed?
Significantly different from last year and lower than 2012, I wouldn't rule out some surprising changes later in the year.

Richard Rathbone

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1004 on: July 10, 2018, 04:59:04 PM »
NSIDC concentration isn't obviously horrible today, but it is at risk from July 9-12 due to satellite testing, so I wouldn't put much emphasis on their current figures just now, particularly as there was an obvious major glitch that they left in the dataset during the last test period.


Stephan

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1005 on: July 10, 2018, 07:29:32 PM »
This suggests to me that the arctic is in a different state than previous years, perhaps more dispersed?
[...]
I wouldn't say it is in another state as the compactness curve of 2018 is very close to those of the other years. To be in 'another state' it should deviate from the "pack" by 5 or more percent (maybe like Oct/Nov 2016 the light yellowish curve).
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Dharma Rupa

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1006 on: July 11, 2018, 02:19:27 AM »
When extent goes up, and area goes down, area divided by extent (in other words, compactness) will inevitably go down. 2018 still lowest on record:

That would also seem to imply that the number of small flows is going up.  Not at all sure what this means, but I cannot see how it would be good for the stability of the pack.  How small does a hunk of ice have to be before your random wave will overturn it?

jdallen

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1007 on: July 11, 2018, 02:41:04 AM »
When extent goes up, and area goes down, area divided by extent (in other words, compactness) will inevitably go down. 2018 still lowest on record:

That would also seem to imply that the number of small flows is going up.  Not at all sure what this means, but I cannot see how it would be good for the stability of the pack.  How small does a hunk of ice have to be before your random wave will overturn it?
That depends less on size and more on top weight ;)

Key factor when thinking about size is the point at which lateral melt/side melt becomes a significant contributor to melting.  That starts happening when floe sizes get down to around 100M.
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Dharma Rupa

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1008 on: July 11, 2018, 03:01:39 AM »
Key factor when thinking about size is the point at which lateral melt/side melt becomes a significant contributor to melting.  That starts happening when floe sizes get down to around 100M.
OK, I will buy into that.  Now....how close are we to an average size being about 100M?

Actually...I think the big question is when there isn't enough fresh water to suppress the mixing, but I haven't a clue how to figure that out.  I do expect things to progress very rapidly when that point is reached.  (Not sure how closely the two are related.)

Juan C. García

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1009 on: July 11, 2018, 05:53:15 AM »
[ADS-NIPR-JAXA] ASI Extent.

July 10th, 2018: 8,689,779 km2, a drop of -48,079 km2.
2018 is now the eleventh lowest on record.
Which is the best answer to Sep-2012 ASI lost (compared to 1979-2000)?
50% [NSIDC Extent] or
73% [PIOMAS Volume]

Volume is harder to measure than extent, but 3-dimensional space is real, 2D's hide ~50% thickness gone.
-> IPCC/NSIDC trends [based on extent] underestimate the real speed of ASI lost.

Brigantine

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1010 on: July 11, 2018, 08:22:27 AM »
A  nine-year high for the date. (But still quite low by the standards prior to 2010)

gerontocrat

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1011 on: July 11, 2018, 10:18:15 AM »
JAXA Arctic Sea Ice Extent - 8,689,779 km2(July 10, 2018)

Once again, Just to add to Juan's post:-
- A daily drop of just 48k is about 40 to 45 k less than the average for the time of year,
- Extent is 471k (5.4%) below the 2010's average extent on this date,
- Extent loss to date is 810k km2 (13.5%) below the 2008-2017 average, with 60% of the average melting season done.

Resulting minimum from average remaining melt = 4.74 million km2, (excluding 2012 from the average 4.83 million km2). Range of results from last ten years is 3.89 to 5.44 million km2.

2 days ago I said :-
Quote
Perhaps JAXA extent losses will, over the next few days, catch up a bit with the greater than average area losses recorded by NSIDC over the last few days.

Now I am getting that 2017 feeling - a big extent loss one day merely flatters to deceive. There is, on average,less than 40% of further extent loss to go. In less than three weeks daily extent loss, on average, will be already in significant decline. A September minimum up one more bin to 4.75 to 5.25 million km2 looks very possible.

Thus the divergence between extent and area seems set to increase. Perhaps this deserves a look-see at the end of the melting season for each sea (using NSIDC data)?
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gerontocrat

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1012 on: July 11, 2018, 08:46:15 PM »
NSIDC Total Area as at 8 July (5 day trailing average =  6,297,223 km2
This is down to just 27 k above the 2010-2017 average


Total Area loss 113K, Central Seas 67 k, Periphery loss 21 k, Other Seas loss 25 k  

Analysis of individual seas.

Pacific Side
- The Okhotsk Sea area is 5k,
- The Bering Sea area is 1 k,
- Chukchi Sea loss 6k,
- Beaufort Sea gain 3 k,
Area loss slowed even more.
Atlantic Side
- Baffin Sea loss 10 k,
- Greenland Sea loss 9 k,
- Barents Sea loss 2 k - Barents Sea area is 21k, less than 3% of 1980's maximum, i.e. melting finished for all practical purposes.
- The Kara Sea area loss 13 k.
- The Laptev Sea area gain/loss 0 k  .

CAB
- The Central Arctic Sea loss 50 k,
- The Canadian Archipelago loss  6k,
- East Siberian Sea gain 7 k .

Other seas
- St Lawrence area at 1 k,
- Hudson Bay area loss 25 k.

It is the Central Arctic Sea that is providing the drama at the moment - 209k loss over the last four days. (But not lowest - 2010 was 12k lower on that date)

Area loss now only just above average - but Area now back down to the 2010's average.
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Peter Ellis

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1013 on: July 11, 2018, 09:06:51 PM »
OK, I will buy into that.  Now....how close are we to an average size being about 100M?
A very long way away.  Any floe you can see on Worldview is a minimum of kilometres across, given that the pixel size is 250 metres.

The centre of this picture has some faint milky swirls. That's what floes smaller than 100m look like, because each one isn't large enough to turn a whole pixel white.  Not a lot of the Arctic looks like this yet, thank God.
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Juan C. García

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1014 on: July 12, 2018, 05:55:31 AM »
[ADS-NIPR-JAXA] ASI Extent.

July 11th, 2018: the 4th century break on this year.
8,589,748 km2, a drop of -100,031 km2.
2018 is the eleventh lowest on record.
Which is the best answer to Sep-2012 ASI lost (compared to 1979-2000)?
50% [NSIDC Extent] or
73% [PIOMAS Volume]

Volume is harder to measure than extent, but 3-dimensional space is real, 2D's hide ~50% thickness gone.
-> IPCC/NSIDC trends [based on extent] underestimate the real speed of ASI lost.

Feeltheburn

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1015 on: July 12, 2018, 07:01:15 AM »
July 10 had 2 century drop from July 9. Let's see how this changes the rankings.

NSIDC in ascending order:

2012 - 8.130 (up from 3 to 1)
2011 - 8.253 (down from 1 to 2)
2016 - 8.418 (down from 2 to 3)
2014 - 8.534 (up from 5 to 4)
2007 - 8.583 (up from 6 to 5)
2017 - 8.591 (down from 5 to 6)
2010 - 8.611 (remains at 7)
2013 - 8.718 (remains at 8)
2006 - 8.811 (remains at 9)
2018 - 9.020 (remains at 10)
2009 - 9.030 (up from 12 to 11)
2015 - 9.048 (down from 11 to 12)
2005 - 9.197 (remains at 13)
2008 - 9.315 (remains at 14)
1995 - 9.477 (up from 16 to 15)
2001 - 9.481 (down from 15 to 16)

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gerontocrat

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1016 on: July 12, 2018, 08:54:48 AM »
JAXA Arctic Sea Ice Extent - 8,589,748 km2(July 11, 2018)
Once again, Just to add to Juan's post:-
- A daily drop of 100k is about 10 k greater than the average for this time of year,
- Extent is 468k (5.4%) above the 2010's average extent on this date,
- Extent loss to date is 800k km2 (13.5%) below the 2008-2017 average, with 61% of the average melting season done.

Resulting minimum from average remaining melt = 4.73 million km2, (excluding 2012 from the average 4.82 million km2). Range of results from last ten years remaining melt is 3.90 to 5.43 million km2.

I am still getting that 2017 feeling - a big extent loss one day merely flatters to deceive. There is, on average, less than 40% of further extent loss to go. In 2 weeks daily extent loss, on average, will be already in significant decline. A September minimum up one more bin to 4.75 to 5.25 million km2 looks very possible.
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gerontocrat

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1017 on: July 12, 2018, 05:08:22 PM »
NSIDC Total Area as at 11 July (5 day trailing average = 6,205,258  km2
This is down to just 27 k above the 2010-2017 average


Total Area loss 92K, Central Seas 43 k, Periphery loss 22 k, Other Seas loss 27 k  

Analysis of individual seas.

Pacific Side
- The Okhotsk Sea area is 4 k,
- The Bering Sea area is 1 k,
- Chukchi Sea gain 5k,
- Beaufort Sea loss 2 k,
Small Area gain on the day.
Atlantic Side
- Baffin Sea loss 13 k,
- Greenland Sea loss 8 k,
- Barents Sea loss 2 k - Barents Sea area is 19 k, less than 2.5% of 1980's average maximum, i.e. melting finished for all practical purposes.
- The Kara Sea area loss 17 k.
- The Laptev Sea area loss 4 k.

CAB
- The Central Arctic Sea loss 29 k,
- The Canadian Archipelago loss  3k,
- East Siberian Sea gain 8 k .

Other seas
- St Lawrence area at 1 k,
- Hudson Bay area loss 26 k.

It is the Central Arctic Sea that is providing the drama at the moment - 239k loss over the last five days. (And is lowest for the 17th time in 2018 - (2010 was 11k higher on that date)).

Daily area loss 11th July exactly at 2010's average.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 09:59:35 PM by gerontocrat »
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Stephan

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1018 on: July 12, 2018, 06:51:49 PM »
The three most southern seas with significant ice are Baffin, Hudson, and Kara. I just compared their area (from Gerontocrat's actual post → THANK YOU FOR THIS VERY VALUABLE CONTRIBUTION!!) with their extent (from MASIE). All these seas show a very low compactness which makes them likely to melt out the next week(s):
Baffin area 0.23 extent 0.55 (compactness ~ 40%)
Hudson area 0.28 extent 0.70 (compactness ~ 25%)
Kara area 0.28 extent 0.50 (compactness ~ 55%)
The extents sum up to 1.75 mio. km² which should lead to further "century meltdowns" in the next days...
« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 07:01:16 PM by Stephan »
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colchonero

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1019 on: July 12, 2018, 09:53:58 PM »
Gerontocrat your total area values for yesterday and today are the same (6,297,223km2) despite your comment that there was a 92k drop in between.

gerontocrat

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1020 on: July 12, 2018, 10:01:07 PM »
Gerontocrat your total area values for yesterday and today are the same (6,297,223km2) despite your comment that there was a 92k drop in between.

Well spotted that man - the date was wrong as well. That's what happens when one uses the last posting as the template for the next one. Woe is me, mea culpa.
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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1021 on: July 12, 2018, 10:15:25 PM »
I made projections for each seas ice extent by the end of the month, and I believe there will be a century extent loss on average daily for the rest of the month. From there August weather will be make or break for this seasons minimum.

Projected loss by end of July (20 days)

CAB           100K
ESS           400-500K
Laptev       200K
Greenland  100K
CAA           100K
Chukchi      100-200K
Beufort       100-200K
Kara           200-300K
Hudson       300K
Baffin         200K
Total          1.8-2.2 / 20 days = approx 100K loss per day
big time oops

gerontocrat

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1022 on: July 12, 2018, 10:37:37 PM »
I have been wondering about area vs extent and how they change or do not over time.
First graph attached. I make no comments as it is late and my brain is fried.

EDIT- (Brain won't stop)
But here is graph number 2 for the whole year. Note how at minimum area is about 1.1 to 1.2 million less than extent. That is about 25%+ of extent minimum. So when they came up with the 1 million km2 extent for the Blue Ocean Event, did they realise that maybe this means just 0.75 million km2 area? (or did they not?)
« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 11:41:18 PM by gerontocrat »
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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1023 on: July 13, 2018, 12:36:51 AM »
So looking at these graphs, in the 80s and 90s, the area minus extent had a minimum in the middle of July, whereas after that, there has been a small peak in the middle of the summer.

In the 80s and 90s, this would mean that in addition to the central pack, there was a lot of dispersed ice that didn't really melt out during the summer? More recently, the small peak would mean that everything that was dispersed by the beginning of July would melt out during the month, bringing the area-extent number slightly up, and by August, the ice could be dispersed again without melting out, before starting to freeze into a solid pack again?

Since according to Nevens compactness (ratio) graph, we are currently lowest on record, this should mean that if there is a similar peak this year, it could lead to a record loss in extent over the next few weeks?

Juan C. García

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1024 on: July 13, 2018, 05:59:33 AM »
[ADS-NIPR-JAXA] ASI Extent.

July 12th, 2018: 8,509,320 km2, a drop of -80,428 km2.
2018 is the eleventh lowest on record.
Which is the best answer to Sep-2012 ASI lost (compared to 1979-2000)?
50% [NSIDC Extent] or
73% [PIOMAS Volume]

Volume is harder to measure than extent, but 3-dimensional space is real, 2D's hide ~50% thickness gone.
-> IPCC/NSIDC trends [based on extent] underestimate the real speed of ASI lost.

gerontocrat

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1025 on: July 13, 2018, 09:11:38 AM »
JAXA Arctic Sea Ice Extent - 8,509,320 km2(July 12, 2018)
Once again, Just to add to Juan's post:-
- A daily drop of 80k is about 10 to 15k less than the average for this time of year,
- Extent is 499k (5.9%) above the 2010's average extent on this date,
- Extent loss to date is 830k km2 (13.3%) below the 2008-2017 average, with 62% of the average melting season done.

Resulting minimum from average remaining melt = 4.75 million km2, (excluding 2012 from the average 4.84 million km2). Range of results from last ten years remaining melt is 3.91 to 5.44 million km2.

I am getting that 2017 feeling more and more - extent losses never enough to catch up on slow melt to date. There is, on average, just over one third of further extent loss to go. In 2 weeks daily extent loss, on average, will be already in significant decline. A September minimum up one more bin to 4.75 to 5.25 million km2 looks very possible. The other possibility is that extent loss catches up with area loss over the next 60 days or so.
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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1026 on: July 13, 2018, 01:58:39 PM »
I made projections for each seas ice extent by the end of the month, and I believe there will be a century extent loss on average daily for the rest of the month. From there August weather will be make or break for this seasons minimum.

Projected loss by end of July (20 days)

[...]
Total          1.8-2.2 / 20 days = approx 100K loss per day
Very good, a bold prediction with a fixed time period and range of uncertainty.  I love it.

It's certainly possible.  In the JAXA record 2003-2017, there have been:

* 0 of 15 years that lost over 2 million km2 extent during the next 20 days
* 4 of 15 years that lost 1.8 to 2.0 million km2 extent (2007, 2008, 2009, and 2015)
* 2 of 15 years that came really close to losing 1.8 million km2 (2005 and 2012)

So ... about 1/3 of years have hit or come close to the lower half of your range.  No years have hit the upper half, but it certainly could happen this year. 

Anyway, nice to see a prediction like this.

Neven

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1027 on: July 13, 2018, 05:14:52 PM »
Extent reacted with a 220K drop yesterday and 136K today, whereas area had a zero drop yesterday and 101K drop today, which means compactness went up a bit again, 6th lowest in the 2005-2018 period, but all very close:
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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1028 on: July 13, 2018, 07:07:35 PM »
NSIDC Total Area as at 12 July (5 day trailing average = 6,137,206 km2
This is up a bit to 51 k above the 2010-2017 average


Total Area loss 68K, Central Seas 26 k, Periphery loss 19 k, Other Seas loss 23 k  
Analysis of individual seas.

Pacific Side
- The Okhotsk Sea area is 4 k,
- The Bering Sea area is 3 k,
- Chukchi Sea gain 4k,
- Beaufort Sea gain 6 k,
Small but higher Area gain on the day.
Atlantic Side
- Baffin Sea loss 11 k,
- Greenland Sea loss 6 k,
- Barents Sea loss 2 k - Barents Sea area is 17 k, i.e. melting finished for all practical purposes.
- The Kara Sea area loss 21 k.
- The Laptev Sea area loss 4 k.
CAB
- The Central Arctic Sea gain 2 k,
- The Canadian Archipelago loss  1k,
- East Siberian Sea loss 12 k .
Other seas
- St Lawrence area at 1 k,
- Hudson Bay area loss 23 k.

The Central Arctic Sea drama is over for the moment.
Daily area loss 12th July about 25k below 2010's average.

The GFS forecast (which seems to be doing quite well at the moment) has Arctic temperature anomalies varying from -0.5 to +0.5 over the next 10 days, sufficient for melting to continue  - but not for drama? Time for extent loss to catch up a bit with area loss?

For variety I attach the Kara area graph - which seems to be behaving in accordance with the comments and images in the melting season thread - i.e. accelerated melting.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 10:22:15 PM by gerontocrat »
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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1029 on: July 13, 2018, 09:59:15 PM »
Just small correction,  Bering sea area should be 3k, not 1k, and Beaufort had a 6k gain, not loss.

gerontocrat

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1030 on: July 13, 2018, 10:23:16 PM »
Just small correction,  Bering sea area should be 3k, not 1k, and Beaufort had a 6k gain, not loss.
message to me - post less, check more.
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Juan C. García

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1031 on: July 14, 2018, 06:31:53 AM »
Kara finally going poof today.

Not only Kara. Hudson Bay looks in bad shape also.
Another century break now?
double century break  :o?

We will know in 20 60? :( minutes...

Why did I talk? My fault!
Maybe they will take the weekend off, like several times before…  :'(

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« Last Edit: July 14, 2018, 01:51:32 PM by Juan C. García »
Which is the best answer to Sep-2012 ASI lost (compared to 1979-2000)?
50% [NSIDC Extent] or
73% [PIOMAS Volume]

Volume is harder to measure than extent, but 3-dimensional space is real, 2D's hide ~50% thickness gone.
-> IPCC/NSIDC trends [based on extent] underestimate the real speed of ASI lost.

oren

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1032 on: July 14, 2018, 07:50:54 AM »
Japan has a national holiday on Monday. Let's just hope it's not a long weekend outage.

Juan C. García

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1033 on: July 14, 2018, 02:03:16 PM »
From Wipneus post and Univ Hamburg data:

Nearing a triple century (-276k) extent drop, more than half in the Hudson region very little in the Arctic Basin. Some Hudson ice may rebound in the coming days (it always does), but the trend is clear.
Hudson Bay:  -142.2
Total Extent:  -276.2
Which is the best answer to Sep-2012 ASI lost (compared to 1979-2000)?
50% [NSIDC Extent] or
73% [PIOMAS Volume]

Volume is harder to measure than extent, but 3-dimensional space is real, 2D's hide ~50% thickness gone.
-> IPCC/NSIDC trends [based on extent] underestimate the real speed of ASI lost.

gerontocrat

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1034 on: July 14, 2018, 03:02:31 PM »
NSIDC Total Area as at 13 July (5 day trailing average = 6,070,380 km2
This is up a mere 2 k to 53 k above the 2010-2017 average


note : 29k minor correction to total area - the pesky polar hole adjustment keeps on popping up.

Total Area loss 96K, Central Seas 41 k, Periphery loss 124 k, Other Seas loss 31 k  
Analysis of individual seas.

Pacific Side
- The Okhotsk Sea area is 5 k,
- The Bering Sea area is 3 k,
- Chukchi Sea loss 6k,
- Beaufort Sea gain 4 k,
Tiny Area loss on the day.
Atlantic Side
- Baffin Sea loss 16 k,
- Greenland Sea loss 4 k,
- Barents Sea loss 3 k - Barents Sea area is 14 k, i.e. melting finished for all practical purposes.
- The Kara Sea area loss 18 k.
- The Laptev Sea area loss 7 k.
CAB
- The Central Arctic Sea gain 7 k,
- The Canadian Archipelago loss/gain  0k,
- East Siberian Sea loss 22 k .
Other seas
- St Lawrence area at 1 k,
- Hudson Bay area loss 31 k.

Daily area loss 12th July at 2010's average. See how using 5 day trailing average disguises major daily changes. Loads of drama on the daily extent measures, partly reflected in 5 day extent average changes already.

The result is extent loss is catching up fast to area loss, as shown well on the attached graph. Will area losses also accelerate ?
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gerontocrat

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1035 on: July 14, 2018, 07:32:23 PM »
From Wipneus post and Univ Hamburg data:

Nearing a triple century (-276k) extent drop, more than half in the Hudson region very little in the Arctic Basin. Some Hudson ice may rebound in the coming days (it always does), but the trend is clear.
Hudson Bay:  -142.2
Total Extent:  -276.2

The data and the images tell me to believe that Hudson Bay lost over 140k extent in one day, i.e something like EDIT : half a third of its remaining ice extent and an amount to cause comment if it was for the entire Arctic. This amazing effect cannot happen without an amazing(?) cause - but what is it?
Not temperature - if anything, on the east side of the Hudson the temp anomaly is -ve.
There was a bit of wind and a bit of rain but nothing special.

So what dunnit?

Or will the satellites recover from a dose of magic mushrooms by tomorrow?

EDIT:- NSIDC was in testing July 9 to 12 - duff data ? (but where does Univ Bremen get its data from?)
« Last Edit: July 14, 2018, 08:09:19 PM by gerontocrat »
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johnm33

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1036 on: July 14, 2018, 08:56:31 PM »
Take a look at Nullschool a low moved over the bay, it's the new moon tidal flows will be high, so maybe the water flowing into the low pressure zone was warm Irminger current water.

Peter Ellis

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1037 on: July 14, 2018, 09:40:00 PM »
Worldview shows thick cloud over the basin, I expect that's confusing the sensors and a significant amount of it will reappear in a few days. The images from 11th/12th didn't look anything like as low concentration as Uni Bremen suggests, so it's probably also getting confused by melt ponds.

Juan C. García

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1038 on: July 14, 2018, 09:58:57 PM »
EDIT:- NSIDC was in testing July 9 to 12 - duff data ? (but where does Univ Bremen get its data from?)
Worldview shows thick cloud over the basin, I expect that's confusing the sensors and a significant amount of it will reappear in a few days. The images from 11th/12th didn't look anything like as low concentration as Uni Bremen suggests, so it's probably also getting confused by melt ponds.

Uni Bremen, Uni Hamburg and ADI-NIPR (JAXA) are all based on AMSR-2. So, if the sensors are confused in one of them, they will be confused in all of them.

We will know on the following days, because the sensors usually don't repeat their confusion.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2018, 10:05:24 PM by Juan C. García »
Which is the best answer to Sep-2012 ASI lost (compared to 1979-2000)?
50% [NSIDC Extent] or
73% [PIOMAS Volume]

Volume is harder to measure than extent, but 3-dimensional space is real, 2D's hide ~50% thickness gone.
-> IPCC/NSIDC trends [based on extent] underestimate the real speed of ASI lost.

Tor Bejnar

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1039 on: July 14, 2018, 10:09:53 PM »
Here is a PolarView image from today of part of Hudson Bay: it sees through the clouds.  Yellow square is location of detail.  There appears to me to be a clear ice edge across the 'middle' of the yellow square.  It'll take somebody with more technology at hand to closely compare/contrast PolarView with gerontocrat's images, but it looks more like the July 12 image than the 13th to me.
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magnamentis

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1040 on: July 14, 2018, 10:16:35 PM »
but what is it?
So what dunnit?

i used once the examples of lakes that are fully ice covered one day and totally ice free the next day without winds or anything extreme over night.

i think that the thinner the ice will be over wide areas as well as the fragmented distribution can lead to such effects and even more often in more places in the future. similar things currently happen in the kara and beaufort will be next probably.

i expected such behaviour in earlier years without it happening on such scale but sooner or later we shall see more and more "sudden death" events IMO, simply due to the poor condition of the ice over large areas.

Wherestheice

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1041 on: July 14, 2018, 10:41:58 PM »
NSIDC data also shows the poof in ice.
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jdallen

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1042 on: July 14, 2018, 11:28:29 PM »
NSIDC data also shows the poof in ice.
I expect it disappeared because it reached the consistency of slush, and did so over a large area.  I'm not sure it will bounce back.
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gerontocrat

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1043 on: July 15, 2018, 01:43:24 AM »
Tomrrow is another day with new data.to enlighten and or confuse.
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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1044 on: July 15, 2018, 01:50:56 AM »
Here is a PolarView image from today of part of Hudson Bay: it sees through the clouds.  Yellow square is location of detail.  There appears to me to be a clear ice edge across the 'middle' of the yellow square.  It'll take somebody with more technology at hand to closely compare/contrast PolarView with gerontocrat's images, but it looks more like the July 12 image than the 13th to me.

Yes, I think you're right, and AMSR2 was being fooled yesterday.

Here's a Sentinel-1A SAR backscatter (hv polarization) image from today (14 July):



The ice edge runs from the lower center part of the image to the upper right.

For comparison, here's the 13 July AMSR2 sea ice map from Bremen, overlaid on that same 14 July Sentinel-1A image:



Looks to me like the "poof" on 13 July is just bad data in the Bremen AMSR2 ice map -- it's radically underestimating the ice extent. Presumably the ice will "un-poof" soon.

And here's the 12 July AMSR2 map, with the same 14 July Sentinel-1A image:



The 12 July AMSR2 ice map is closer to the actual ice edge, but even that is somewhat falling short, unless the ice moved westward a lot between 12 and 14 July.

Ned W

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1045 on: July 15, 2018, 02:25:51 AM »
Here's an enlargement of today's (14 July) Sentinel-1A cross-polarized backscatter image, with the 12 July AMSR2 ice extent superimposed in partially transparent color:



The ice edge is obvious.  All the ice that "disappeared" in the 13 July AMSR2 map is not actually gone. 

magnamentis

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1046 on: July 15, 2018, 03:01:36 AM »
good job the last few posts, well investigated independent of what the next days will show, that's nice to see men at work doing well ;)

A-Team

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1047 on: July 15, 2018, 03:57:55 AM »
Nice analysis by Ned! This looks like a couple days of ground station receiving or processing glitch as it is affecting several instruments on the same satellite. Ascat B (UL, 1st frame) is still working ok but Hudson Bay is often not fully covered by swaths. UH AMSR2 is showing peculiar artifacts (last 2 frames); PR89 (1st frame center) and RGB36 (1st frame BR) have not working the last two days; WorldView has been too cloudy.

Jaxa sea ice thickness, which they offer as a nice animated blowup, is showing fairly meagre ice, as is Osi-Saf (which is struggling for day-to-day consistency),

When the seawater and sea ice are sitting right on top of the water/ice phase boundary, as now, like people say about the Platte River, it's too thick to drink but too thin to plow. Here, I would modify that to if a polar bear can't walk across, not just find a floe to sit on, it's not ice.

However for tracking purposes it is better to stay consistent and keep using our usual products when they resume (and correct the faux record by interpolation rather than go on for years about jerky motions in a curve).

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1048 on: July 15, 2018, 09:05:00 AM »
Also Jaxa's sea ice concentration (AMSR2 sensor, Bootstrap algorithm, 10x10km res) sees the flash-melt in the Hudson:-192k (-330k total Arctic!).

Today's Uni Hamburg  (AMSR2 sensor, ASI algorithm, 3.125x3.125km res) shows no un-flashing yet: -42k Hudson (-167k total Arctic).
« Last Edit: July 15, 2018, 11:19:10 AM by Wipneus »

oren

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Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« Reply #1049 on: July 15, 2018, 10:11:17 AM »
In an interesting development, the inner basin extent has recently moved upward in the relative sense, weakening one of the arguments for why this season ain't over yet, and lending credence to the high-minimum camp (which I still haven't joined).