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Aluminium

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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1550 on: June 23, 2018, 08:13:33 AM »
June 18-22.

Notable changes in the Kara Sea.

Rob Dekker

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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1551 on: June 23, 2018, 08:19:44 AM »
The ARCUS SIPN report is out for predictions of Sept SIE based on May data :

Median projection this year is 4.6 M km2.
Incidentally, that is pretty close to my estimate of 4.65 M km2 which was based on the Northern Hemisphere albedo (snow cover, ice 'area' and 'extent') in the report.


What about Volume? It won't mean any good if we have a - 2 SD Extent made up of Slush floating around.

Several of the entries in ARCUS SIPN include volume as a parameter.
For example, the entry by Nico Sun (Tealight on this forum) includes volume :

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,103.msg157721.html#msg157721

In the end, ARCUS SIPN uses 'extent' as the prediction variable, most likely because that variable is verifiable using (satellite) measurements, whereas volume estimates are always a model.
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Frivolousz21

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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1552 on: June 23, 2018, 08:38:15 AM »
Come on guys that Smos data in June is worthless for ice thickness.

Posting that over and over then diagnosing it as if it's legitimate is a board wide credibility killer.

Please stop using it.


Back to discussing future weather.

Both the 00z gfs and euro have come into great agreement on a pattern change to a full basin wide dipole anomaly.

If this happens things will get much more interesting and keep this summer in the running for a bottom 5 finish
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Frivolousz21

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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1553 on: June 23, 2018, 08:46:24 AM »
Not sure why the first frame is off. But you guys can see the pattern definitely becomes more typical of a major melt regime
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Hyperion

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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1554 on: June 23, 2018, 09:12:14 AM »
The ARCUS SIPN report is out for predictions of Sept SIE based on May data :

Median projection this year is 4.6 M km2.
Incidentally, that is pretty close to my estimate of 4.65 M km2 which was based on the Northern Hemisphere albedo (snow cover, ice 'area' and 'extent') in the report.


What about Volume? It won't mean any good if we have a - 2 SD Extent made up of Slush floating around.

Don't you think Rob, that the high and persistent snow cover over eastern Canada, and the ice hanging on in Baffin and Hudson bays is the result of the huge flood of negative SSTA melt and Beaufort lid water flushing out through the CAA and Labrador, combined with the persistent northerly winds also following that path, as a result of the Greenland vortex cyclone pattern we've been seeing? The area has been acting as the plughole that's draining all the cold air and water out of the Arctic while most everywhere else hot stuff has been rushing in to replace it. I don't think it much matters if areas facing northerly winds have albedo when  cyclone frequency in multiple corridors has hit a level that they are acting like rollers on a conveyor belt to pass moisture and heat out of all the worlds tropical oceans and continental interiors.
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Hyperion

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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1555 on: June 23, 2018, 09:38:55 AM »
Come on guys that Smos data in June is worthless for ice thickness.

Posting that over and over then diagnosing it as if it's legitimate is a board wide credibility killer.

Please stop using it.is


Back to discussing future weather.

Both the 00z gfs and euro have come into great agreement on a pattern change to a full basin wide dipole anomaly.

If this happens things will get much more interesting and keep this summer in the running for a bottom 5 finish

Frivolous Mon, ye tha  one spoutin  bollocks
If ye was payin sum attention perhaps ye wud ken,
The Oars on those wetha 'puters broken outa  they rowlocks!
They bin predictin for tomorra, but tomorra comes, and then...
IT AIN'T NUTHIN LIKE WHAT THEY PREDICTED, THE MISERABLE KOCH'S!

SMOS ain't accurate on soggy ice thickness we know.
But a valuable resource on melt and meltponds it is!
Its showing quite clearly ocean heat up from below.
Correlated real closely with high surface salinity, Mr Friz.

Stop wastin the space here with long distance forecasting spam,
It ain't bin roight once this season, go flush ya nog doon tha can!
 ;D
Policy: The diversion of NZ aluminum production to build giant space-mirrors to melt the icecaps and destroy the foolish greed-worshiping cities of man. Thereby returning man to the sea, which he should never have left in the first place.
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Frivolousz21

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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1556 on: June 23, 2018, 11:13:25 AM »
We got some mighty big waves pounding into the Atlantic kill zone. Chaps like these can penetrate hundreds of km into the pack and mix deep water up to flash melt it.
And SMOS meltpond/thin ice has gone mental. Its suggesting that a huge pole hole could open up detaching an island of a ice north of FJL. If the waves and shallow Atlantic heat that's got right out to the Pole don't get it first that is.

Sounds like you are talking about Smos pretty literally here.

There is no bottom melt induced flash melting going on anywhere.

You said two weeks ago the Beaufort region was being "spazzed" just like the Russian side was in a prediction thread where you said there is a great chance for under 2 million extent min this summer because of unforseen bottom ice melting.

You also said large ridges of high pressure over the beafort is the only way to actually preserve thicker ice??


Well the Beaufort is still covered in snow.  And it's mostly un melted snow with high albedo still intact.

There is no bottom melt taking place either.

I'm sure the pending high pressure ridge isn't going to bring warm sunny skies to the Beaufort region???

Come on man the hyperbole is getting ridiculous
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oren

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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1557 on: June 23, 2018, 11:27:47 AM »
Hyperion - I  recommend to calm down real fast. This kind of post you just did is a big no no.
Regardless, Friv is a highly respected "weatherman".

Telihod

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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1558 on: June 23, 2018, 11:47:53 AM »

Well the Beaufort is still covered in snow.  And it's mostly un melted snow with high albedo still intact.


Is this map about the snow cover wrong? According to this there is some snow north of Greenland, but not in the Beaufort.


aperson

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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1559 on: June 23, 2018, 11:52:03 AM »
One part I'd like to know re SMOS data: Is the meltponding appearance in the CAA from actual top melt or from recent rain over the region? It has been raining there, but there was a strong temperature inversion layer with a cool surface. How do we know how much actual melt has occurred there?


Also, midrange forecasting has been pretty useful here. It showed us the Warm Air Advection event from the first cyclone well in advance to form a -DA pattern, and now it's showing us moving into opposite phase with a +DA pattern. That's essentially a forecast for a 1-2 punch to set up proper melt-ponding around the entire Arctic during peak insolation.

From looking at worldview I haven't seen much evidence of bottom melt so far. Most ice that's melted has broken up into smaller floes or has drifted into open water that has had time to warm.

The only notable Sea Surface Salinity event I've seen is that we have Atlantic water intruding farther poleward along Svalbard compared to previous years. Attached is HYCOM Sea Surface Salinity for June 22nd.
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Thawing Thunder

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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1560 on: June 23, 2018, 11:56:02 AM »
The only notable Sea Surface Salinity event I've seen is that we have Atlantic water intruding farther poleward along Svalbard compared to previous years. Attached is HYCOM Sea Surface Salinity for June 22nd.

My guess ist, that in the future we'll talk about this year for what happened on the Atlantic side. Everything else is average or below, but the Atlantic side holds the cards for a stunning event.
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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1561 on: June 23, 2018, 11:57:47 AM »
Back to discussing future weather.

Both the 00z gfs and euro have come into great agreement on a pattern change to a full basin wide dipole anomaly.

If this happens things will get much more interesting and keep this summer in the running for a bottom 5 finish
Stop wastin the space here with long distance forecasting spam,
It ain't bin roight once this season, go flush ya nog doon tha can!
 ;D
I for one really appreciate weather insights.
I also appreciate English language for posts (grammar mistakes from non natives apart, mine included)
There is no much bottom melt in the Arctic proper, just kicking in, and that has solid physical grounds and no pseudo-scientific BS.

Telihod

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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1562 on: June 23, 2018, 12:15:35 PM »
My guess ist, that in the future we'll talk about this year for what happened on the Atlantic side. Everything else is average or below, but the Atlantic side holds the cards for a stunning event.


Shared Humanity

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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1563 on: June 23, 2018, 02:34:18 PM »
The Bering Sea freeze this year was one for the books but the chart suggests we need to consider it was just a Black Swan event. I'll be watching it closely this freeze season.

Hyperion

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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1564 on: June 23, 2018, 02:39:31 PM »
Hyperion - I  recommend to calm down real fast. This kind of post you just did is a big no no.
Regardless, Friv is a highly respected "weatherman".
Apology if you or anyone took that the wrong way Oren. That was a bit of light hearted teasing with not a shred of animosity or lack of calm involved.
 I do however stand by the opinions I've shared regarding the accuracy of modelling by what ever agency in the current paradigm, of things like future weather, current currents, salinity, water temperature. Direct observations are the only things I trust, and I think there is far too great a tendency for people to believe an attractively presented picture on a computer screen is real, rather than looking outside.  I spend several hours a day monitoring weather forecasts, cloud radars, checking what weather systems and the Sea are doing at all altitudes. Temperature, winds, currents, incoming moisture levels, rain radar charts, sea surface temperatures and Anomalies. Often my life may be at risk if I do not have a good idea six hours in advance what is coming from the Atmosphere and Ocean. And more often than not the last few years the computers have been moderately to massively wrong about what winds and rain events were incoming. Just ten days ago gfs miss forecast the track of a major extra tropical low pressure system that came through here by 130 degrees, and about 1000 km six hours in advance, 2000 km 12 hours from the forecast, but got windspeed right. Local met computers got the track right two days in advance but forecast twice the windspeed we got. This sort of thing is very common in recent years,particularly in a volatile maritime climate like we have. Perhaps not so readily observed if you are swaddled in a continent.
Policy: The diversion of NZ aluminum production to build giant space-mirrors to melt the icecaps and destroy the foolish greed-worshiping cities of man. Thereby returning man to the sea, which he should never have left in the first place.
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Hyperion

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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1565 on: June 23, 2018, 02:50:39 PM »
The only notable Sea Surface Salinity event I've seen is that we have Atlantic water intruding farther poleward along Svalbard compared to previous years. Attached is HYCOM Sea Surface Salinity for June 22nd.

My guess ist, that in the future we'll talk about this year for what happened on the Atlantic side. Everything else is average or below, but the Atlantic side holds the cards for a stunning event.
The only thing looking at all average is the illusion you get from looking at extent distribution. The ice being pushed into Pacific and American side coastal regions by not before observed patterns of wind and currents. While you are used to seeing it shrink back from the coasts, this year it is threatening to go from the middle first or all at once.
Policy: The diversion of NZ aluminum production to build giant space-mirrors to melt the icecaps and destroy the foolish greed-worshiping cities of man. Thereby returning man to the sea, which he should never have left in the first place.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McGillicuddy_Serious_Party

subgeometer

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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1566 on: June 23, 2018, 03:17:41 PM »
I don't have time right now get some images but the ECMWF forecast is looking really ugly at the 850mb level on WindyTV with most of the basin seeing prolonged above freezing air at this level, except near Greenland and north CAA, with a high setting up over the CAB combining with a low over the ice edge near the Barents to pull warmth in and blow any cold air out.

Melt ponds are all over the CAA now, very clear last 2 days

Hyperion

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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1567 on: June 23, 2018, 03:29:28 PM »
Back to discussing future weather.

Both the 00z gfs and euro have come into great agreement on a pattern change to a full basin wide dipole anomaly.

If this happens things will get much more interesting and keep this summer in the running for a bottom 5 finish
Stop wastin the space here with long distance forecasting spam,
It ain't bin roight once this season, go flush ya nog doon tha can!
 ;D
I for one really appreciate weather insights.
I also appreciate English language for posts (grammar mistakes from non natives apart, mine included)
There is no much bottom melt in the Arctic proper, just kicking in, and that has solid physical grounds and no pseudo-scientific BS.
I hop ye no be disrespecting ma Gaelic heritage laddie. It took a lot of effort to overcome this phones attempts to sterilize ma poetic rap battle tease at friv with the hated Anglo phonetics and grammar.  ::)
There is no no much bottom melt in the Arctic proper. Its been extensive and basin wide for at least a month. It can start to kick in at air temps as low as - ten Centigrade. As soon as the core temperature of the floe starts to approach the freezing point of the sea beneath its away. If the surface is wet then because it has lower salinity than the water below, then within a day or two the sort of ice we have across the Arctic now is bottom melting with bells on. One of the reasons SMOS is possibly the most valuable observational tool we have at our disposal. Its penetration into wet ice containing salt is reduced, so thinness is exaggerated, and not consistent. But this is an advantage because it spotlights surface and hence bottom melting rates. Furthermore it shows clearly features that we can track to get a handle on what currents, salinity and water temperatures are really doing. And where deep keeled floes and bergs are and what their effect on the halocline is. Not like the beautifully presented products for mass media release packaged and served up by a variety of agency's, produced by models that are subject to slow moving conservative science and economic and political realpolitik imperitives distorting them from reality.
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Pagophilus

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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1568 on: June 23, 2018, 03:58:30 PM »
The entire CAB is on the brink of being utterly vaporized!
 
Just kidding.  The Kara Sea on Worldview from June 22, contrast enhanced for viewing pleasure through the light clouds.  It looks pretty fragile in the north (left) portion of the sea to me.  It also looks as though we are not far away from there being continuous open water between the Kara and that huge gap in the Laptev.
 

June 18-22.

Notable changes in the Kara Sea.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2018, 04:03:48 PM by Pagophilus »
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magnamentis

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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1569 on: June 23, 2018, 04:15:52 PM »
so again and almost on every page there are ongoing discussions (disputes) as to different models. so far so good but for years i try to start a solution oriented deeper discussion about how to resolve this and any approach is mostly discarded with some "what can we do" or "they are great/sufficient" arguments.

again propose to seriously discuss whether the 15% threshold for extent is still contemporary, considering the fact that we are not looking at a homogeneous ice sheet but highly fractured and somehow perforated ice cover that often remains above 15% but way below the 100% as what they are counted as far as extent is concerned.

sooner or later one has to at least consider to change methods/parameters of measurement to keep up with real world scenarios, or do we really not care if once the ice mass is cut in half an well spread across the arctic to see the ice extent as the same like when it was double the ice but in one single homogenous sheet?

my point is that i believe that many discussions are caused by different interpretations and prioritizing of input and to adapt to new facts could get us rid of many times seeing the same thing differently from different "angles" so to say.

i hope i was able to make myself understood in the way that i'm not seeking to criticize but to take away some unnecessary disputes from the discussions.

IMO extent as it has always been (measured) should not be a holy cow.

since i'm not a scientist i'm not the one to seriously propose specifics bot for the sake of not only moaning but also contributing ideas, i would ask to consider to raise the extent threshold to something between 30 and 50% because if there is less than half of an area covered with ice it's hard to understand why this should count as 100% extent.

this is just one example, there are other factors that undergo heavy changes in the last few years, one is humidity and cloud cover as compared to dry cloudless conditions over vast periods in the past. etc.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2018, 04:21:07 PM by magnamentis »

FishOutofWater

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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1570 on: June 23, 2018, 05:47:35 PM »
Changing metrics and baselines is generally undesirable because it makes intercomparisons difficult or impossible. Sometimes, it's necessary to do it to make progress, but it should only be done after other approaches fail and the new metric is a substantial improvement worth the cost of change.

What we really need is more buoys and measurements of what's happening in the Arctic, from the upper atmosphere to the deep ocean. Without more and better data it's very hard to make progress.

El Cid

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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1571 on: June 23, 2018, 06:00:07 PM »

My guess ist, that in the future we'll talk about this year for what happened on the Atlantic side. Everything else is average or below, but the Atlantic side holds the cards for a stunning event.

I second that. It seems that Atlantic water is moving ever closer to the Pole, pushing the Svalbard front poleward. I wonder where this leads this summer? Below is comparison of ice extent with 2007,12,16, for 22nd June. There is more open water N of Svalbard than ever

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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1572 on: June 23, 2018, 06:06:59 PM »

My guess ist, that in the future we'll talk about this year for what happened on the Atlantic side. Everything else is average or below, but the Atlantic side holds the cards for a stunning event.
What constitutes 'the Atlantic Side" geographically is not the same as the increasing push of salty subsurface Atlantic waters further east along the the Siberian coast into the Laptev Sea and beyond. I think this latter effect, ongoing and increasing, will also prove to be most interesting this year, especially if weather events promote strong mixing later in the melt season.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2018, 06:12:07 PM by guygee »

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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1573 on: June 23, 2018, 07:17:48 PM »
The only notable Sea Surface Salinity event I've seen is that we have Atlantic water intruding farther poleward along Svalbard compared to previous years. Attached is HYCOM Sea Surface Salinity for June 22nd.

My guess ist, that in the future we'll talk about this year for what happened on the Atlantic side. Everything else is average or below, but the Atlantic side holds the cards for a stunning event.
The only thing looking at all average is the illusion you get from looking at extent distribution. The ice being pushed into Pacific and American side coastal regions by not before observed patterns of wind and currents. While you are used to seeing it shrink back from the coasts, this year it is threatening to go from the middle first or all at once.

Thanks, Hyperion, for putting this in simple and clear words. The 2018 "great spreading" has been in my thoughts for a while. Explanations and opinions abound on this forum. So far, though, what I find really interesting in this melt season it's its defiant behavior. Ready for surprises.

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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1574 on: June 23, 2018, 08:00:19 PM »
There was some discussion elsewhere about snow cover and albedo and how it was affecting melt.  To redirect that some, this is the Beaufort with very little overcast on the 22nd.

While there is some now cover, it is generally light, and much of the area does have coloration suggesting developing melt ponds.  Snow on land on Banks and adjacent islands has diminished and appears primarily relegated to higher elevations.

That said, extrapolating from what we see on land and relative brightness of the ice, snow cover *is* much higher than any year I looked at in Worldview going back to 2002, with the possible exception of 2009.

The difference is primarily concentrated over the CAA, which would follow from discussions of what effectively is a cold pump over Greenland pulling air around across the CAA and the Northern Beaufort down over the Laurentide region, Baffin bay and Labrador.

The more coastal Beaufort doesn't appear to be significantly snow covered.  All in all what's happening might be the mechanism which creates a "bastion" of ice against the CAA and NW Greenland, through more general sharper declines elsewhere in the arctic.
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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1575 on: June 23, 2018, 08:01:09 PM »
Our issue seems to be answering 'how much ice does an 'average season' melt out?

As we see more and more late formed, warmer ice in the basin each year we must , as global temps rise and warmer, saltier waters, flow into the basin, reach a point where an average year will be enough to take out such ice.

When the end comes it will come quickly.
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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1576 on: June 23, 2018, 08:42:56 PM »
Explanations and opinions abound on this forum. So far, though, what I find really interesting in this melt season it's its defiant behavior. Ready for surprises.

I am forever surprised.


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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1577 on: June 23, 2018, 09:31:16 PM »
Explanations and opinions abound on this forum. So far, though, what I find really interesting in this melt season it's its defiant behavior. Ready for surprises.

I am forever surprised.

NSIDC data says area loss has slowed to a crawl
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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1578 on: June 24, 2018, 12:23:21 AM »
Area losses will pile up next week if the weather goes where the models say as of now.

But it's been cloudy and cool over the CAB.

Honestly even the forecasted dipole isn't that bad.  The ridging isn't clean and is only modestly warm.

The big melt years like 2007, 2011 2012, and 2015 all had periods with huge ridging in the dipole position.

Even 2005,08,10 did to a lesser degree.

The forecasted weather will  bring clearer skies and warmth.

But not the fourth wall breaking kind Sheriff Deadpool rides in on.
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Frivolousz21

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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1579 on: June 24, 2018, 12:33:40 AM »
This is the most clear day in 2015.

Even with massive ridging getting clear skies is hard.


I got a nickname for all my guns
a Desert Eagle that I call Big Pun
a two shot that I call Tupac
and a dirty pistol that love to crew hop
my TEC 9 Imma call T-Pain
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uniquorn

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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1580 on: June 24, 2018, 12:56:03 AM »
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Uni-Hamburg amsr2, every 3rd day(to reduce size), poor data frames deleted

Hyperion

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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1581 on: June 24, 2018, 01:13:37 AM »
for years i try to start a solution oriented deeper discussion about how to resolve this and any approach is mostly discarded with some "what can we do" or "they are great/sufficient" arguments.

again propose to seriously discuss whether the 15% threshold for extent is still contemporary, considering the fact that we are not looking at a homogeneous ice sheet but highly fractured and somehow perforated ice cover that often remains above 15% but way below the 100% as what they are counted as far as extent is concerned.

sooner or later one has to at least consider to change methods/parameters of measurement to keep up with real world scenarios, or do we really not care if once the ice mass is cut in half an well spread across the arctic to see the ice extent as the same like when it was double the ice but in one single homogenous sheet?

my point is that i believe that many discussions are caused by different interpretations and prioritizing of input and to adapt to new facts could get us rid of many times seeing the same thing differently from different "angles" so to say.

IMO extent as it has always been (measured) should not be a holy cow.

....contributing ideas, i would ask to consider to raise the extent threshold to something between 30 and 50% because if there is less than half of an area covered with ice it's hard to understand why this should count as 100% extent.

this is just one example, there are other factors that undergo heavy changes in the last few years, one is humidity and cloud cover as compared to dry cloudless conditions over vast periods in the past. etc.
People always seem to jump on the "its an observable metric, and changing it would make comparisons with previous years difficult." Bandwagon when we try to suggest that its not a good measure. The comparing apples with apples argument. But its like saying we have the similar number of barrels of apples as we did ten years ago. Which may be fine if you are intending to compost them. But if you want to ship them to the supermarket to be sold, then ignoring that every year there is more rotten apples in those barrels, and now most of them are is a big problem.
 Personally I think area is failing in the same way. Say to wash them you put your apples in a turbulent stream that flows into a pond, and measure the areas of the clumps that accumulate around the shore to estimate the size of the harvest. If the apples are getting smaller you have less barrels of apples, but they may cover the same extent and area. If the apples are rotten and the stream is carrying more water and more turbulent, then you'd be a right twat to estimate the revenue you will get from selling them by just measuring the area or extent of the mats of disintegrated rotten apples and bashed and broken bruised ones on your pond.
The fractured rubble fields between smaller and thinner floes, than we used to have, should should not be viewed as equivalent in area or extent to vast areas of large thick floes with deep pressure ridges and keels, and clearly defined large leads easily resolved by kms wide satellite sensor pixel resolution.
If cloud effects could be removed then Albedo would be a far more valid comparison. Perhaps some combination of microwave and ultraviolet frequency albedo maps would be a good way to go. But comparing with past years would be difficult.
In terms of melt susceptibility and prediction for where the season might end up compared to previous years SMOS archive going back to 2010 might be the best thing to work with. It does suffer from high daily variation with changing temperatures and precipitation events and sogginess and salinity of the ice resulting. So running 7 day 14 day, and month trailing means would give decent results I would think. It would be better if they plotted the whole dataset rather than clipping at max 50cm thickness where their error percentage starts to rise on dry ice for thickness measurement purposes. Still it would be very easy to gif a weeks worth for same date in different years for comparison purposes.
Here's 22june 12,16,17,18
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Hyperion

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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1582 on: June 24, 2018, 03:45:40 AM »
Here's 2016 and 2018 June 19-22. I haven't used this online gifmaker before and neither the 20 frames per second rate or the downloaded file seem to be liked by my phone. How do they look to others? I was trying for a blended effect with the high frame rate.
Edit. You gotta click to play. Are these too big?
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SteveMDFP

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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1583 on: June 24, 2018, 03:53:00 AM »
Here's 2016 and 2018 June 19-22. I haven't used this online gifmaker before and neither the 20 frames per second rate or the downloaded file seem to be liked by my phone. How do they look to others? I was trying for a blended effect with the high frame rate.
Edit. You gotta click to play. Are these too big?

Either 20 fps is way too fast, or my brain is way too slow.  Maybe both.

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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1584 on: June 24, 2018, 04:21:26 AM »
Hyperion, agree that's way too fast.

I'm a total amateur but use ezgif.com. Maybe use something of the order 1 second per frame and add an extra rest at the end.

The physics question is how well the SMOS display variable acts as a proxy for some useful definition of absorptance. It's definitely flagging some sort of surface change, and can be compared year-to-year.

Hopefully it's not too biased by e.g. the characteristics of the cloud cover on that day - these are more detailed questions.

The SMOS display this year looks qualitatively similar to on the corresponding date in the record melt year 2012. Yes, in the absence of a more rigorous comparison I would accept that as some sort of evidence that the surface absorptance considered over the Arctic Basin may be similar.

The absorptance of recent days was discussed about 2 pages back, e.g. #1487 by bbr2314 & #1497 A-Team; and the related topic of melt ponds at #1505 by A-Team.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2018, 04:32:30 AM by slow wing »

subgeometer

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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1585 on: June 24, 2018, 05:00:45 AM »
Algal blooms are visible fed by the flood plumes of rivers flowing into the open water along the coast south of Wrangel Island. Lovely clear skies to maximise insolation

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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1586 on: June 24, 2018, 07:27:02 AM »
People always seem to jump on the "its an observable metric, and changing it would make comparisons with previous years difficult." Bandwagon when we try to suggest that its not a good measure.
 Personally I think area is failing in the same way.
The fractured rubble fields between smaller and thinner floes, than we used to have, should should not be viewed as equivalent in area or extent to vast areas of large thick floes with deep pressure ridges and keels, and clearly defined large leads easily resolved by kms wide satellite sensor pixel resolution.
If cloud effects could be removed then Albedo would be a far more valid comparison. Perhaps some combination of microwave and ultraviolet frequency albedo maps would be a good way to go. But comparing with past years would be difficult.
In terms of melt susceptibility and prediction for where the season might end up compared to previous years SMOS archive going back to 2010 might be the best thing to work with. It does suffer from high daily variation with changing temperatures and precipitation events and sogginess and salinity of the ice resulting. So running 7 day 14 day, and month trailing means would give decent results I would think. It would be better if they plotted the whole dataset rather than clipping at max 50cm thickness where their error percentage starts to rise on dry ice for thickness measurement purposes. Still it would be very easy to gif a weeks worth for same date in different years for comparison purposes.
Here's 22june 12,16,17,18
Hyperion, all these SMOS images are good-looking and tell us stuff about surface conditions, but I can't see how they replace extent and area measurements. No metric is perfect, especially in an environment that is changing so strongly as the arctic, but I still find both extent and area very useful to get a sense of the ice. All that is needed is understanding what they mean, and what they don't mean, rather than throw them out the window.
Magnamentis - if you want to ditch the 15% rule just stop looking at extent at all, and focus on area. It "ditches the 15% rule" just as you ask. It doesn't have that much of an effect as you think, but that's a personal choice.

Hyperion

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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1587 on: June 24, 2018, 10:13:35 AM »
Personally I am obsessive compulsive about getting every little piece of information out of every source  I can Oren. And looking for patterns in the physical behaviors that comparing the information that different types of sensors acquire. I agree that extent and area numbers are very useful in seeing where the ice is, and where its moving over time. I think what irks many, myself included, is when people, and especially mainstream media use them to claim the ice is in good shape, better than its been for years, in recovery, no chance of record melt this year because its only 5th lowest on record etc. I'm going to keep playing around with the SMOS, Nullschool SST charts, low level temps etc. I'M sure a lot more knowledge about the state of the melt and where its going can be had by combining and comparing the data acquired from different sources, with various masks and time averaged stuff. Need to get on a real computer tomorrow for a decent attempt.

Meanwhile I've been stunned recently by the way oceanic low level winds have been sweeping across the equator and stealing all the heat and humidity from the southern hemisphere tropics, and passing it, along with the northern tropics energy, north on conveyor belts of low pressure. They used to teach us that there was very little mixing of air between the hemispheres. That nuclear fallout from the northern hemisphere would barely affect us for example. And that there would be a twenty year lag before we felt the brunt of climate change the north was going to experience. Wrong again I guess.
 There's even east to west flowing reversed jets happening in the northern tropics from the high altitude back flow. Examples acquired just now:
« Last Edit: June 24, 2018, 10:24:42 AM by Hyperion »
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Hyperion

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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1588 on: June 24, 2018, 10:40:26 AM »
The above winds are 1000 hPa. Surface and 850 are much the same picture.
Here's 500, 250, 70 hPa. The east to west flow in the northern tropical latitudes is because winds moving towards the equator get left behind by the rotation of the earth.
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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1589 on: June 24, 2018, 10:54:17 AM »
The 00z gfs and gem have keep us in the running for a bottom 4-5 lowest min finish. 

Looks like fresh snow fall over the Atlatic side near the pole.

It's June 24th.  There has been a lot of talk about something special melt wise on the Atlantic side.

But there is either fresh snow or a frozen over top of the ice sheet.

Something Is gonna have to happen for any chance of a no benign melt season. And soon
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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1590 on: June 24, 2018, 11:28:37 AM »
Here's another request for everyone to keep it on-topic, short and simple. Thanks.
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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1591 on: June 24, 2018, 11:56:14 AM »
The only thing looking at all average is the illusion you get from looking at extent distribution. The ice being pushed into Pacific and American side coastal regions by not before observed patterns of wind and currents. While you are used to seeing it shrink back from the coasts, this year it is threatening to go from the middle first or all at once.

If memory serves, all post 2012 years showed more or less developed patterns of that kind: Fragile and fractured ice drifting outwards (southwards) instead of melting in situ. While this year that pattern appears very pronounced in the Beaufort sea, it's nothing totally new.
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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1592 on: June 24, 2018, 03:02:14 PM »
Beaufort clouds in June

Worldview terra/modis jun1-24

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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1593 on: June 24, 2018, 03:19:06 PM »
Algal blooms are visible fed by the flood plumes of rivers flowing into the open water along the coast south of Wrangel Island. Lovely clear skies to maximise insolation

I noticed these lovely flood plumes too, and was unsure if the plumes were primarily sediment, algal blooms or both. 

What is also interesting is that the plumes indicate a strong westerly direction for the surface current, whereas most of the maps for Arctic surface currents I could find indicate the surface current usually flows to the east along this shore.  If the currents are moving to the west, could warmer waters from the Bering Strait be being drawn along the Siberian coast?
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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1594 on: June 24, 2018, 04:04:58 PM »
Algal blooms are visible fed by the flood plumes of rivers flowing into the open water along the coast south of Wrangel Island. Lovely clear skies to maximise insolation

I am thinking that is just silt.

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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1595 on: June 24, 2018, 04:09:21 PM »
The 00z gfs and gem have keep us in the running for a bottom 4-5 lowest min finish. 

Looks like fresh snow fall over the Atlatic side near the pole.

It's June 24th.  There has been a lot of talk about something special melt wise on the Atlantic side.

But there is either fresh snow or a frozen over top of the ice sheet.

Something Is gonna have to happen for any chance of a no benign melt season. And soon

Looking at the bands, I'm thinking you are right. That is fresh snow. If this pattern persists over the next few melt seasons, I would have to conclude we are entering a new summer melt regime with cloudy, cooler, wetter weather that serves to protect very vulnerable ice.

With July fast approaching, a benign melt season is increasingly likely.

Hyperion

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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1596 on: June 24, 2018, 04:26:51 PM »


Looks like fresh snow fall over the Atlatic side near the pole.

But there is either fresh snow or a frozen over top of the ice sheet.

Something Is gonna have to happen for any chance of a no benign melt season. And soon
Are you sure? Gfs says its above freezing up to 850hPa and well above right out to the pole. And this extending right to the coast 90 west and east. Except for a little spot above Greenland that is. But with ice salinity what it is these days, -0.3 to -0.5 is about as warm as you can get on its surface, cause thats what temperature it melts at. When I look at incoming cloud water, total precipitable water, three hour precipitation accumulation and relative humidity at all levels,  I see a broad stream of warm low level moisture coming in and condensing on the ice, or directly above it as warm fog. A huge energy input given the area and windspeed. The only place that might have a dusting is that spot just above elsemere. Peaking at 1.6 mm 3hpa. Because that's the only place over the ice there is humidity, cloud, and low temperature from this system. And only at high altitudes.  But SMOS from yesterday and surface temps all point to soggy waterlogged ice that would melt any snowflakes in less than a second. Plenty of salt wicking and diffusing to surface. Very likely all of it is suffering surface melt even if surface temps were below -1. And bottom melt too induced by the energy input of the water condensing, and solar irradiance directly to the ice and efficiently transferred by the rolling fog. Chances are you are confusing a slushy field compacted by the winds for a dusting of snow or frozen ice sheet.
How about you get out your calculator and estimate the volume of ice melted by that water vapour input Friv? Its pretty easy. Approximately ten times the mass of the incoming TPW-TCW times approximate mean windspeed in metres per second times width of the flow in metres. Times 3600 times event duration in hours. Trust it more if you do the calc yourself, I assure you.
Betcha SMOS tomorrow will show the whole area soggier than a boiled biscuit. 8)
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« Last Edit: June 24, 2018, 04:36:33 PM by Hyperion »
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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1597 on: June 24, 2018, 04:28:30 PM »
This year's melting season was impacted, before it began, by perhaps the strongest stratospheric warming ever monitored by science. Major stratospheric warmings lead to cool, snowy spring weather in eastern north America and western Europe.

Remember the "Beast from the East" cold air outbreak that froze western Europe. That was caused by disruption of the polar vortex and subsidence associated with the stratospheric warming.

The heavy snow increased NH albedo into late spring. It also caused the jet stream to expand southwards across the Pacific into an El Niño type of configuration. California finally got heavy rains after a very dry La Niña winter. That jet stream pattern shifted the NAO and AO patterns to favor a stormy far north Atlantic and Arctic.

This summer's melt season is likely to be similar to 2015.

There's a recent paper which found that weak polar vortex winters lead to summers that are favorable for retaining sea ice and strong polar vortex winters lead to summers with intense melt seasons.

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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1598 on: June 24, 2018, 04:31:29 PM »
With July fast approaching, a benign melt season is increasingly likely.

Not with the kind of weather ECMWF predicts for the coming six days (and beyond). It should help to get compactness down, which is really high for the time of year (and does indeed point very strongly to a benign melting season).

It's a very interesting melting season so far.  :)
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Re: The 2018 melting season
« Reply #1599 on: June 24, 2018, 05:34:43 PM »
Any time there are stormy conditions with rising air over the Arctic regions that are ice covered or covered with a water ice mixture, temp -1.8 C, there's a chance of snow. Although the European side of the Arctic ocean will be very warm over coming days it will be cold on the north American side.

Sinking air over the N pole and Arctic ocean in June and July is optimal for melting. This June the European side is very warm, but the American side is an ice box.

Note the GFS forecast of snow in 36 hours on the American side of the Arctic ocean. I know the GFS has its problems but it can handle the 36 hour forecast.

Yes, this is a very interesting melt season. Many things are happening that will affect the Arctic for the next few years including the development of pre-El Niño conditions. However, June's weather is good for retaining ice in about half of the Arctic for this summer's melt season.