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Bob Wallace

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Solar prices falling faster than the ice is melting.
« on: April 20, 2013, 07:02:52 AM »
Spain has just approved a 250 MW solar farm which is expected to cost  about €270 million.

That's roughly $1.40/watt of installed solar.  No subsidies.  It should produce electricity at approximately $0.06/kWh.  Utility solar in the US has hit the $0.10/kWh level, this is a very big drop lower.

If this holds it will make solar one of our three cheapest ways to bring new capacity on line, with wind and natural gas the others.  It will make it very feasible to speed the abandonment of coal and should greatly cut our need for NG fill-in.

We can increase the manufacturing rate of solar very quickly and training new installers is a rather minor undertaking. 

http://cleantechnica.com/2013/04/19/new-250-mw-solar-pv-plant-being-planned-for-western-spain/

Neven

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Re: Solar prices falling faster than the ice is melting.
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2013, 09:47:41 AM »
Bob, do you think solar will stay this cheap, now that one of the biggest Chinese manufacturers has gone bankrupt?
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Re: Solar prices falling faster than the ice is melting.
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2013, 03:00:06 PM »
Hi Bob,

Are you aware of the PV import tariffs in the Good Ol' U S of A, and proposed over here in the EU?

http://econnexus.org/what-will-the-arctic-resemble-in-2050/#Tariffs

I discussed the issue with Jonathon Porrit at TEDxExeter last week. I asked him why he hadn't mentioned it in his presentation. He told me he didn't want to depress his audience. He also thought Germany were keen to "protect" their own renewable energy businesses.
"The most revolutionary thing one can do always is to proclaim loudly what is happening" - Rosa Luxemburg

ghoti

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Re: Solar prices falling faster than the ice is melting.
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2013, 06:02:13 PM »
Right now the price for the panels themselves is no longer the biggest part of the cost of installing PV. This is especially true for small residential installations. (He says as he waits for quotes for rooftop PV)

Bob Wallace

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Re: Solar prices falling faster than the ice is melting.
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2013, 07:17:06 PM »
Bob, do you think solar will stay this cheap, now that one of the biggest Chinese manufacturers has gone bankrupt?

Solar panel prices are likely to bounce around a little bit for a while and then start their way toward cheaper.  The panel industry has reached a stage that most industries reach when the profit margin shrinks and the least efficient producers are forced out of business. 

Right now manufacturers are selling at little or no profit in order to keep product moving.  Some are probably selling at a loss either in an attempt to stay in business or at least recoup some of their investment as they go under.

But there's still room for panel manufacturing prices to go lower.  I think it was First Solar who stated that they expect their manufacturing costs to go below $0.40/watt by 2017.  (I'll try to find that and post.)

As the surviving manufacturers increase volume they can spread costs over more units and further lower per watt costs.  Apparently there is more advanced machinery waiting to be installed which will also drop costs.

Then, as panel efficiency increases prices can drop.  If you start making 20% efficient panels in place of 18% panels you pack more watts into the same amount of frame, glass cover, connection box, labor and shipping.

Only a short time ago panel prices were the largest part of a system.  That rapidly changed over the last ~3 years.  Now panels are selling around $0.60/watt.  If you look at Germany's average installed system price of $2/W you can see that panels have moved from >50% of system price to ~25%.

Now Spain has apparently figured out how to cut the balance of system (BOS) prices even further.

I don't see either panel or BOS prices rising.  I think we're about to see an explosion in solar installations and economies of scale will take prices even lower.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Solar prices falling faster than the ice is melting.
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2013, 07:19:50 PM »
Hi Bob,

Are you aware of the PV import tariffs in the Good Ol' U S of A, and proposed over here in the EU?

http://econnexus.org/what-will-the-arctic-resemble-in-2050/#Tariffs

I discussed the issue with Jonathon Porrit at TEDxExeter last week. I asked him why he hadn't mentioned it in his presentation. He told me he didn't want to depress his audience. He also thought Germany were keen to "protect" their own renewable energy businesses.

Yes.  But I think them unimportant. 

The actual cost of manufacturing panels is low enough.  Banning "dumped at less than cost" panels isn't going to hurt the market.

The effort needed in the US right now is the BOS part of solar, not panel price. 

Bob Wallace

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Re: Solar prices falling faster than the ice is melting.
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2013, 07:32:57 PM »
"(First Solar) also announced that its manufacturing cost will be $0.63 to $0.66 per watt in 2013 and will plunge to $0.40 per watt by 2017."

http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/First-Solar-Surprises-With-Big-2013-Guidance-40-Cents-Per-Watt-Cost-by-201

The current average silicon panel prices (large lots) is $0.675/W and thin film is $0.623. 

http://pvinsights.com/

First Solar is building large solar farms using their panels and then selling the completed projects to investors.  I suspect this strategy is working to help them move through the current panel manufacturers shakeout.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Solar prices falling faster than the ice is melting.
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2013, 08:27:47 PM »
Greentech Media is projecting that panel prices will drop from an average of 63 cents per watt in 2012 to 55 cents in 2014 and 47 cents in 2016.

They are also projecting a 20% annual demand growth.

And that the current shake out in the panel maufacturing industry will drop the number of manufacturers from 357 to just under 100.

http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/four-must-see-charts-on-global-solar-demand

Another article on the site suggests that consolidation will benefit technology.  The remaining manufacturers will increase their research budgets in order to stay in the game and that will drive efficiencies faster.

Freegrass

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Re: Solar prices falling faster than the ice is melting.
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2024, 03:04:29 PM »
Can the solar industry keep the lights on?
Global supply glut of panels is hurting producers but also helping installations

https://www.ft.com/content/9c53f696-6e32-4349-bd18-f4d431e2a577

Founded in Dresden in the early 1990s, Germany’s Solarwatt quickly became an emblem of Europe’s renewable energy ambitions and bold plan to build a solar power industry.

Its opening of a new solar panel plant in Dresden in late 2021 was hailed as a small victory in the battle to wrestle market share from the Chinese groups that have historically supplied the bulk of panels used in Europe.

Now, Solarwatt is preparing to halt production at the plant and shift that work to China.

“It is a big pity for our employees, but from an economic point of view we could not do otherwise,” said Peter Bachmann, the company’s chief product officer.

Solarwatt is not alone. A global supply glut has pummelled solar panel prices over the past two years, leaving swaths of Europe’s manufacturers unprofitable, threatening US President Joe Biden’s ambition to turn America into a renewable energy force and even ricocheting back on the Chinese companies that dominate the global market.

“We are in a crisis,” said Johan Lindahl, secretary-general of the European Solar Manufacturing Council, the European industry’s trade body.

Yet as companies in Europe, the US and China cut jobs, delay projects and mothball facilities, an abundance of cheap solar panels has delivered one significant upside — consumers and businesses are installing them in ever greater numbers.

Electricity generated from solar power is expected to surpass that of wind and nuclear by 2028, according to the International Energy Agency.


The picture underlines the quandary confronting governments that have pledged to decarbonise their economies, but will find doing so harder unless the historic shift from fossil fuels is both affordable for the public and creates new jobs.

Governments face a “delicate and difficult balancing act”, said Michael Parr, director of trade group Ultra Low Carbon Solar Alliance. They must “maximise renewables deployment and carbon reductions, bolster domestic manufacturing sectors, keep energy prices low and ensure energy security”.

The industry, which spans wafer, cell and panel manufacturers, as well as companies that install panels, employed more than 800,000 people in Europe at the end of last year, according to SolarPower Europe. In the US almost 265,000 work in the sector, figures from the Interstate Renewable Energy Council show.

“There is overcapacity in every segment, starting with polysilicon and finishing with the module,” said Yana Hryshko, head of global solar supply chain research at the consultancy Wood Mackenzie.

According to BloombergNEF, panel prices have plunged more than 60 per cent since July 2022. The scale of the damage inflicted has sparked calls for Brussels to protect European companies from what the industry says are state-subsidised Chinese products.

Europe’s solar panel manufacturing capacity has collapsed by about half to 3 gigawatts since November as companies have failed, mothballed facilities or shifted production abroad, the European Solar Manufacturing Council estimates. In rough terms, a gigawatt can potentially supply electricity for 1mn homes.

The hollowing out comes as the EU is banking on solar power playing a major role in the bloc meeting its target of generating 45 per cent of its energy from renewable sources by 2030. In the US, the Biden administration has set a target of achieving a 100 per cent carbon pollution-free electricity grid by 2035.

Climate change is a global challenge, but executives said the solar industry’s predicament exposed how attempts to address it can quickly fracture along national and regional lines.

“There’s trade policy and then there’s climate policy, and they aren’t in sync,” said Andres Gluski, chief executive of AES, one of the world’s biggest developers of clean energy. “That’s a problem.”

Brussels has so far resisted demands to impose tariffs. It first levied them in 2012 but reversed that in 2018, partly in what proved a successful attempt to quicken the uptake of solar. Chinese imports now account for the lion’s share of Europe’s solar panels.

In May, the European Commission introduced the Net Zero Industry Act, legislation aimed at bolstering the bloc’s clean energy industries by cutting red tape and promoting a regional supply chain.

But Gunter Erfurt, chief executive of Switzerland-based Meyer Burger, the country’s largest solar-panel maker, is sceptical it will be enough.

“You need to create a level playing field,” he said. Meyer Burger would benefit if the EU imposed tariffs because it has operations in Germany.

Having begun in watchmaking, Meyer Burger shifted into the solar industry in 1983. Faced with widening losses, the group earlier this year announced it would shut a panel factory in the German city of Freiberg.

Instead, it set its sights on expanding production in the US, where the Inflation Reduction Act has offered subsidies and incentives as the Biden administration has sought to accelerate the growth of a clean energy industry.

The IRA has spurred almost $13bn of investment in solar manufacturing, more than six times the amount committed in the five years before the legislation, according to the Clean Economy Tracker and an FT analysis.

“I think smart decisions have been made in the US in regards to having understood this is the new oil,” said Erfurt. “Solar will by far dominate the new energy system.”

But Meyer Burger’s ambition has become a casualty of the collapse in prices, with the company delaying plans for a 2GW solar cell facility in Colorado Springs.

“We simply cannot expand even further into the United States with market conditions like this,”
Ardes Johnson, head of Meyer Burger America, told a US International Trade Commission hearing in May.

Others are also retreating. Heliene, a Canadian manufacturer, this year pushed back plans to add new production for both cells and panels. A Bill Gates-backed Cubic PV scrapped a proposal to build a 10GW solar factory in February in the US, citing a “dramatic collapse” in prices.

As some companies freeze plans, the Biden administration has responded.

In May, it removed a tariff exemption for double-sided panels and lifted levies on Chinese imports of solar cells from 25 per cent to 50 per cent. Chinese companies now also face penalties if they are found to have dodged tariffs.

US imports of Chinese polysilicon for solar panels had already been hit by a 2021 ban on products made or sourced from China’s Xinjiang because of concerns over the use of forced labour.

Nevertheless, America’s solar power companies warn that the steps taken by the Biden administration this year will fail to provide enough protection.

In April, a coalition of manufacturers including First Solar, QCells and Meyer Burger filed a petition to the US International Trade Commission calling for new tariffs on imports of solar cells. They accuse Chinese solar companies of dumping cells in south-east Asia, the source of the bulk of US imports.

A solar panel manufactured in America using US-made cells costs 18.5 cents a watt, compared with 15.6 cents for a panel sourced in south-east Asia and just over 10 cents for one produced in China, according to estimates from BloombergNEF.

The possibility of victory for Donald Trump in the US presidential election has also cast a shadow over the fledgling industry. At a recent rally, Trump vowed to impose an “immediate moratorium” on “Joe Biden mammoth Socialist bills like the so-called Inflation Reduction Act”.

With the European and US industries under pressure, a key uncertainty is whether China’s companies will stomach the current level of prices or scale back production to shore up their own finances. In March, China’s Longi, the world’s biggest solar company, cut 5 per cent of its 80,000-strong workforce.

“Chinese manufacturers are also struggling in the current low pricing environment,” said Marius Bakke, senior analyst at consultancy Rystad Energy.

Hryshko at Wood Mackenzie reckons that about 70 Chinese manufacturers have already reined in expansion plans, but cautions that others are pressing ahead.

Some “manufacturers are convinced they can make it”, she said, suggesting those in China may “know something we don’t” about plans for state support.

As Solarwatt prepares to outsource operations to China it has kept some machinery in Dresden, refusing to abandon hope that production may one day restart at the plant.

According to Bachmann, its fate ultimately lies with politicians.   

“They need to decide if we want to be completely dependent on Asia or if we want to be resilient at least for a certain percentage,” he said. “This decision needs to be taken.”
« Last Edit: July 23, 2024, 03:27:36 PM by Freegrass »
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar prices falling faster than the ice is melting.
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2024, 04:50:56 PM »
Nice use of an old thread!
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Freegrass

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Re: Solar prices falling faster than the ice is melting.
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2024, 05:08:24 PM »
Nice use of an old thread!
Thanks. I found it looking for a dedicated thread for solar, and bumped into this one.
The last time it was used, solar panels were 9 times more expensive. And that's impressive.
Now let's get that demand up instead of resorting to tariffs.

I found the article from this Tweet from Michael Liebreich.

Quote
https://x.com/MLiebreich/status/1815341489603432645

By 2025 there will be 2TW of annual PV manufacturing capacity, 80% in China. That's enough panels to meet an additional 9% of global power demand. Will we see 1TWh of annual installations and shockwaves across the economy, or bankrupt PV manufacturers?
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John Batteen

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Re: Solar prices falling faster than the ice is melting.
« Reply #11 on: Today at 01:01:26 AM »
I wonder how we can get the cost of installation down.

Riverside

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Re: Solar prices falling faster than the ice is melting.
« Reply #12 on: Today at 04:14:52 AM »
I doubt that installation cost can be reduced much, especially for roof top solar.
It's labor intensive, with multiple steps generally requiring at least one journeyman electrician and a bunch of repetitive physical labor. For individual houses, each project is pretty much custom designed. Then there's permits and inspections.
For large scale solar farms I expect there's some economy of scale with a higher proportion of semi-skilled labor, but all that frame construction and panel installation is still going to done by hand.

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Re: Solar prices falling faster than the ice is melting.
« Reply #13 on: Today at 05:20:59 AM »
I doubt that installation cost can be reduced much, especially for roof top solar.
It's labor intensive, with multiple steps generally requiring at least one journeyman electrician and a bunch of repetitive physical labor. For individual houses, each project is pretty much custom designed. Then there's permits and inspections.
For large scale solar farms I expect there's some economy of scale with a higher proportion of semi-skilled labor, but all that frame construction and panel installation is still going to done by hand.
Installation costs include everything from permits to mounting hardware it also includes system design and labor among other costs. For residential installs panels only represent about a third of the cost. New panels have connectors rather than termination points. They can plug and snap together now which is much faster than actual wiring. Standardizing and higher production volumes help make the other components like mounting hardware. They get like $8 dollars for one style of mounting bracket of which you need two per panel with two additional ones per row. In higher volume I bet the bracket could be sold profitable for $2-3 dollars. Those are not even the most expensive ones I saw some priced up to $16 dollars. System design requires some calculations new software makes it more plug and play. Micro inverters run $100-150 dollars per panel. Their are ways to squeeze costs with increasing production but it takes time and a growing market. Houses can be built substantially reducing what the electrician needs to do and their are efforts to make a licensed solar installer who could not rework the panel but could do most of the electrical stuff. New houses built solar ready would not need the journyman electrician at all while at older houses the electrician would only be needed for the main panel work. Efforts are being made to standardize the permitting process across jurisdictions with standard simplified requirements.
« Last Edit: Today at 05:30:30 AM by interstitial »