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Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2000 on: September 20, 2017, 03:48:18 PM »
Loving the new design concepts.  "Giraffe 2.0"  ;D
Combining solar and wind helps smooth out the generation curves.

A giraffe-looking electric car charging station is powered by both solar and wind
https://electrek.co/2017/09/20/giraffe-electric-car-charging-power-solar-wind/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2001 on: September 20, 2017, 07:16:37 PM »
Nope.

Put the panels on a single axis tracker.   Don't bother spending money on little wind turbines on short towers.

TerryM

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2002 on: September 20, 2017, 09:41:10 PM »
Loving the new design concepts.  "Giraffe 2.0"  ;D
Combining solar and wind helps smooth out the generation curves.

A giraffe-looking electric car charging station is powered by both solar and wind
https://electrek.co/2017/09/20/giraffe-electric-car-charging-power-solar-wind/
I like the concept.
Any system that flattens the production curve equates to less battery usage. Battery lifetime is limited by the number of charging cycles, and replacement costs are significant.
Rather than doubling the solar or wind output, then increasing battery storage until diurnal needs are met, they simply added solar or wind and what battery they do use is simply backup storage.
I believe I've seen these on a much smaller scale powering signage in remote locales.
Terry

Bob Wallace

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2003 on: September 20, 2017, 11:54:50 PM »
The cost difference between fixed angle and single-axis tracking utility solar is $0.99/watt and $1.08/watt.  Nine cents, 9% more to track.

That raises the capacity factor from 20% to 30%.  A 50% increase in electricity generated for a <10% cost increase.  And the solar day is extended from just after sunrise to just before sundown.

The curved array show above will yield a longer solar day but will cut total output 10% to 20% below what would be obtained with all panels facing south.  And it probably costs more to build the curved mount than to purchase a tracking rack.

numerobis

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2004 on: September 21, 2017, 01:12:57 AM »
Could be useful up here. A single-axis tracker doesn't help much when the sun is below the horizon. And there's a fair amount of demand for fully off-grid power.

If you're on a grid, you'll want a far larger wind turbine.

etienne

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2005 on: September 21, 2017, 02:28:33 PM »
Excepted when there is no other choice, I don't think that it is a good idea to install batteries off-line. Maybe it would be smarter to load the batteries at night and to sale the PV electricity during the day. Furthermore,you have sometimes days without wind and without sun.

Electrical network is also good to optimize battery loading and unloading, so you can install more PV power than what the battery can load, and can use more electricity than what the battery can give, so it reduces inverter costs.

ghoti

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2006 on: September 21, 2017, 04:12:22 PM »
The giraffe setup is more art than efficient tech. As Bob said it flattens the output at the expense of total output. Storage or sale of excess power are much better options if possible. Those depend on local pricing and regulatory situations. Certainly more places now present arbitrage options than ever before and more will become available over time.

Here's a great example from the Orkneys where a new type of utility company manages the arbitrage. Details presented in this Fully Charged video starting at about 7:30 (the whole video is worth watching for the details of solar / battery usage in new housing.) Seems similar to watch Etienne is working on.

https://youtu.be/VEh7V9_uIqM?t=7m29s

rboyd

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2007 on: September 22, 2017, 07:53:44 PM »
U.S. International Trade Commission Finds Against Imported Solar Panels!

"A federal trade panel declared Friday that surging imports of solar panels have hurt U.S. manufacturers — a decision that will allow President Donald Trump to penalize Chinese companies but could also choke off the fast-growing green energy industry in the U.S."

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/22/solar-tariff-trump-china-trade-243021

TerryM

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2008 on: September 23, 2017, 12:10:16 AM »
U.S. International Trade Commission Finds Against Imported Solar Panels!

"A federal trade panel declared Friday that surging imports of solar panels have hurt U.S. manufacturers — a decision that will allow President Donald Trump to penalize Chinese companies but could also choke off the fast-growing green energy industry in the U.S."

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/22/solar-tariff-trump-china-trade-243021


This will be in addition to earlier tariffs levied on Chinese manufactured solar panels & applies to all imported panels.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-22/itc-votes-in-favor-of-imposing-tariffs-on-u-s-solar-imports


What the suit asked for is a 40% tariff, with a minimum price of $0.78/Watt. The rest of the world apparently now pays $0.32/Watt.


America seems determined to hog the slow lane when it comes to renewables, and it's hard to imagine American manufacturing rebounding when they're forced to pay more than twice what the competition spends for their solar.
What effect will this have on Musk's plans?


Terry

Bob Wallace

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2009 on: September 23, 2017, 12:14:52 AM »
Quote
What effect will this have on Musk's plans?


If it happens that will likely a boon for Tesla.  They should be able to sell their panels for more and earn more capital for further expansion.

sidd

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2010 on: September 23, 2017, 04:28:46 AM »
Re: USITC decision on solar panel tariff case

Follow the money. heres some backstory

Suniva (bankrupt, 64% owned by Shunfeng of China) filed the case.

"Venture capital group SQN Capital Management is the largest creditor of Chinese-owned Suniva, having provided $51 million in equipment financing. In a May 3 letter, the company’s president outlines a plan that would see Suniva drop its tariff push if a member of the Chinese Chamber agreed to buy $55 million worth of Suniva equipment so the manufacturer could repay its debts to SQN.

If such a deal went through, the trade case “would be withdrawn,” SQN President Jeremiah Silkowski wrote, as the company would stop providing funding to Suniva under its bankruptcy.

“If SQN were to arrange a sale of the equipment that secures its investment, SQN would have no interest in providing additional funding to Suniva and the company would have to convert to a Chapter 7 Bankruptcy where the assets are liquidated and the company ceases to exist,” he wrote.

Swinerton called SQN's offer “an attempt to extort money out of manufacturers that has now put all our jobs at risk.” Suniva did not respond to requests for comment."

http://www.utilitydive.com/news/solar-insiders-expect-itc-harm-finding-handing-tariff-decision-to-trump/505076/

The other one in the case is German owned:

"An E&E News investigation uncovered the majority of Suniva's products were not made in the U.S., but came from other countries. The company sold a 64% stake to Chinese firm Shunfeng in 2015. SolarWorld's parent company is based in Germany as well, which filed for insolvency in May. Suniva declared Chapter 11 bankruptcy in April."

http://www.utilitydive.com/news/updated-itc-finds-injury-to-us-solar-manufacturers-sending-tariff-decisio/505602/

Chinese and German companies and US vultures fighting over carcasses.

Apart from china, who else is screwed ?

now two democrats and two republicans on the USITC voted 4-0 that imports from, mexico  caused serious injury and korea (serious injuries caused by imports or threat thereof?! ). Canasidtan was let off with three comishs disagreeing with the chair.

Some others were let off the hook:

" ...from Australia, CAFTA-DR countries, Colombia, Jordan, Panama, Peru, and Singapore individually are not a substantial cause of serious injury or threat thereof. "

https://www.usitc.gov/press_room/news_release/2017/er0922ll832.htm
https://www.usitc.gov/sites/default/files/press_room/news_release/201_factsheet_finalasposted.pdf

For a historical parallel, look at USA sugar tariffs, who they benefit, and how it is killing the Everglades.
 
sidd

Bob Wallace

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2011 on: September 23, 2017, 04:47:01 AM »
Now that Trump is hoping China will help rein in North Korea he may not be so ready to slap tariffs on Chinese goods.

Of course he could have chop suey and chocolate cake for lunch, get an unpleasant fortune from his cookie,  and decide to bomb China.

(What have we allowed a minority to do to our country?)

etienne

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2012 on: September 23, 2017, 10:05:57 AM »
Did anybody hear of the solar tunnel over Belgian railroads ?
http://enfinity.biz/en/solar-tunnel-belgium
About the solar installation:

    Location: Antwerp - Belgium
    Completed: September 2010
    PV-installation: roof, flat, ballast
    System size: 4 MW
    Roof area: 50.000 sq.m.
    Number of solar panels: 16.000
    Energy production: 3.300 MWh
    Energy production equivalent of: 950 families
    CO2 reduction: 2.400 tons

Bob Wallace

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2013 on: September 23, 2017, 04:41:26 PM »
Is this the one that was built as a way to keep trees off the railway?  Somewhere in Europe the rail route is through a protected forest which meant that trees along the route couldn't be removed.  They needed a structure to keep the track clean and combined it with solar panels to get more bang for their buck.

Having ridden a fair amount of train in India (and some other hot places) I can see a solar shade over the track as being a welcomed improvement. 

etienne

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2014 on: September 24, 2017, 07:38:36 AM »
I have no idea why the tunnel was built. You could be right because I don't see any other use for the tunnel. Last time I travelled by train in Switzerland, I found sad that on some parts of the journey, mainly when the train was on high speed tracks, you couldn't see the landscape because of all the protections around the tracks.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2015 on: September 27, 2017, 09:05:57 PM »
Tesla’s Powerpack is helping a water treatment facility provide clean drinking water in Australia
Quote
A Tesla Powerpack system is helping a remote water treatment facility in Queensland, Australia, provide safe drinking water 24 hours a day to roughly 200,000 people in the region, while using solar-generated power.

The water reservoir, built in Logan and just south of Brisbane, is located in a remote area that’s difficult to connect to local utilities. Using a 95 kWh Tesla Powerpack system combined with 323 solar panels, the Logan Water Infrastructure Alliance with solar installer CSR Bradford was able to create a micro-grid that chlorinates a water reservoir and provide safe drinking water to nearby residents in Flagstone, Yarrabilba, North Maclean, Spring Mountain and Woodhill. The project is expected to save the local government nearly $1.9 million AUD (~$1.5 million USD) in operational costs. ...
http://www.teslarati.com/tesla-powerpack-australian-clean-water-treatment-facility/

Edit:  only a single Tesal Powerpack was required!
A single Tesla Powerpack battery saved this Australian town over $1.5 million in grid connection costs
https://electrek.co/2017/09/27/tesla-powerpack-battery-saved-australian-town-grid-connection-costs/
« Last Edit: September 27, 2017, 10:02:38 PM by Sigmetnow »
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

numerobis

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2016 on: September 27, 2017, 10:46:35 PM »
http://www.nunatsiaqonline.ca/stories/article/65674two_nunavut_hamlets_experiment_with_wind_solar/

Quote
The hamlets of Arviat and Kugluktuk have decided to work on new clean energy projects to reduce diesel use.

If all goes well, solar panels will be set installed in both communities by late fall of 2018, a move that will see diesel use, and thus carbon emissions, displaced by about 15 per cent.

And they're looking at wind next to get to 50% reduction. The article says the contractor "has developed a storage technology" -- not sure if that means there'll be batteries.

etienne

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2017 on: September 28, 2017, 07:01:08 AM »
http://www.nunatsiaqonline.ca/stories/article/65674two_nunavut_hamlets_experiment_with_wind_solar/

Quote
The hamlets of Arviat and Kugluktuk have decided to work on new clean energy projects to reduce diesel use.

If all goes well, solar panels will be set installed in both communities by late fall of 2018, a move that will see diesel use, and thus carbon emissions, displaced by about 15 per cent.

And they're looking at wind next to get to 50% reduction. The article says the contractor "has developed a storage technology" -- not sure if that means there'll be batteries.

It would have been better to install everything in the spring, but I guess they need the summer for delivery and installation work.

numerobis

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2018 on: September 28, 2017, 03:01:29 PM »
Arviat is not far from Churchill, so they could probably arrange shipping pretty early if it's enough material (the regular ships leave later, but captains will sail at any time if you rent their boat).

Or if it's very little, they could haul it by snowmachine during the winter. Except that the rail line to Churchill won't be fixed until spring anyway.

Kugluktuk is further, can't get there until July I think.

Unless you fly the panels. That happens, but it's stupidly expensive.

etienne

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2019 on: September 28, 2017, 06:40:03 PM »
Do you know in which direction and with what angle panels are placed so far north ? I would imagine some kind of rotating system, going around once a day.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2020 on: September 28, 2017, 07:52:05 PM »
Do you know in which direction and with what angle panels are placed so far north ? I would imagine some kind of rotating system, going around once a day.

I find this page very useful.  You can pick country, city (to some extent), panel direction, angles and get insolation per month.

http://www.solarelectricityhandbook.com/solar-irradiance.aspx


etienne

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2021 on: September 29, 2017, 07:06:29 AM »
Well, the situation is a little bit different above 66°N because :
- diesel is very expensive to bring
- there is no grid to take any peak load
- during the summer, you have 24h/day sun (if there is any).

So I would imagine to have panels in different directions, at least south, east and west, or a rotating system, in order to have a longer coverage of the needs by the solar panels.

BenB

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2022 on: September 29, 2017, 12:02:28 PM »
Slightly at a tangent to the current discussion, it isn't always desirable to maximise the output of your solar array. Of course it is if you have a generous net metering agreement, or a lot of battery capacity, meaning that it doesn't matter when you produce your electricity. Equally, trackers allow you to maximise output at all times of day.

However, lots of residential systems don't have net metering, large batteries or trackers, and so the aim is to maximise output when you need the electricity, without paying too heavy a price in terms of loss of overall output. For many people, that means facing the solar panels slightly west of south, in order to produce more electricity in the afternoon, when you return from school/work. This may also apply if the net metering is "time of day", with peak rates in the afternoon which make electricity generated during that period more valuable.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2023 on: September 29, 2017, 06:42:10 PM »
What works really well is to face a portion of your panels east and a portion west.

That gives you a very long 'solar day'.  You'll lose 10% to 20% total output but with the now low cost of solar panels you can just add more panels.

If a lot of your draw is afternoon (AC,for example) then put a larger portion of your panels on the west slope.

numerobis

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2024 on: September 30, 2017, 02:52:19 AM »
Do you know in which direction and with what angle panels are placed so far north ? I would imagine some kind of rotating system, going around once a day.

I haven't heard of single-axis tracking up here. There's no wind warning for tomorrow, when the forecast calls for winds 50 km/h gusting to 80. I'm not sure at what point they start warning, apparently 80 km/h gusts is just normal. I know there's no severe cold warning until the mercury hits -40 (C or F, your choice). So it's pretty rough conditions, which means you'd need an extra-strong setup that can still work in extremely cold weather (or at least doesn't break).

In Kuujjuaq at the airport there's solar panels vertically on the wall. I'm sure that's not the output-maximizing setup, but I bet it's the cheapest setup. In Iqaluit at the power plant and at the arena the panels are mounted about 60 degrees tilt, so they're 30 degrees from vertical, attached to the wall. That requires some big, powerful braces. I haven't seen the other installations, and it's hard to tell from pictures.

Except in Colville Lake I haven't heard of any solar installations in Northern Canada that displace a large fraction of the local demand, so the considerations of being unable to flow power out to the rest of the grid don't matter yet. It is, in the current environment, ideal to just displace as many kWh as possible, regardless of when. As update grows, time-of-day considerations will matter more.

On the flip side I suspect there'll be plenty of demand for home battery storage, in which case time-of-day for the power production doesn't matter as much. Why so much demand? Because the grid falls over *constantly*. Iqaluit has the most reliable grid, but we get a 2-hour power outage about every other week! Right now, people install generators instead, but as batteries have gotten cheaper, they should win out among lazy people, regardless of solar panels (generators are work: you need to turn them on, fuel them up, etc). That they pair well with solar panels is just a bonus.

etienne

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2025 on: September 30, 2017, 09:03:58 AM »
Thanks for the info, it's very interesting.

Etienne

TerryM

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2026 on: September 30, 2017, 10:52:43 AM »
Do you know in which direction and with what angle panels are placed so far north ? I would imagine some kind of rotating system, going around once a day.

I haven't heard of single-axis tracking up here. There's no wind warning for tomorrow, when the forecast calls for winds 50 km/h gusting to 80. I'm not sure at what point they start warning, apparently 80 km/h gusts is just normal. I know there's no severe cold warning until the mercury hits -40 (C or F, your choice). So it's pretty rough conditions, which means you'd need an extra-strong setup that can still work in extremely cold weather (or at least doesn't break).

In Kuujjuaq at the airport there's solar panels vertically on the wall. I'm sure that's not the output-maximizing setup, but I bet it's the cheapest setup. In Iqaluit at the power plant and at the arena the panels are mounted about 60 degrees tilt, so they're 30 degrees from vertical, attached to the wall. That requires some big, powerful braces. I haven't seen the other installations, and it's hard to tell from pictures.

Except in Colville Lake I haven't heard of any solar installations in Northern Canada that displace a large fraction of the local demand, so the considerations of being unable to flow power out to the rest of the grid don't matter yet. It is, in the current environment, ideal to just displace as many kWh as possible, regardless of when. As update grows, time-of-day considerations will matter more.

On the flip side I suspect there'll be plenty of demand for home battery storage, in which case time-of-day for the power production doesn't matter as much. Why so much demand? Because the grid falls over *constantly*. Iqaluit has the most reliable grid, but we get a 2-hour power outage about every other week! Right now, people install generators instead, but as batteries have gotten cheaper, they should win out among lazy people, regardless of solar panels (generators are work: you need to turn them on, fuel them up, etc). That they pair well with solar panels is just a bonus.


Under the conditions you're describing even inefficient short tower wind turbines might make more sense than solar.


Here in Southern Ontario I've noticed many WSW facing arrays.
Terry

etienne

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2027 on: October 01, 2017, 04:13:38 PM »
This is a little bit out of topic, but I didn't find an "electricity" topic.

Swiss grid is nice enough to provide many data do download :
https://www.swissgrid.ch/swissgrid/en/home/reliability/griddata/data_downloads.html

From these data, I was able to do load curves (see attach document, always 14 days average, which means 2 weeks). There are some interesting things, for example that there are 2 peaks in winter (noon and evening), but only 1 in the summer (noon). The curve looks differently from what I have seen from California, maybe Switzerland has more industrial activity.

crandles

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2028 on: October 01, 2017, 04:19:37 PM »
The curve looks differently from what I have seen from California, maybe Switzerland has more industrial activity.

California AC for cooling versus need for heating provided by oil/gas in Switzerland?

numerobis

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2029 on: October 01, 2017, 04:25:15 PM »
Wind turbines don’t scale well in a dense urban area, which all the northern communities are, so individuals can’t much install them. Whereas we can install solar panels. The power company is talking about it but has priorities elsewhere. They’re apparently open to a PPA; that’s how those two communities are trying to structure their wind turbines.

The windstorm last night was tropical storm force in Iqaluit, hurricane-force closer to its core. The hurricane-force areas got wind warnings. Strangely the warnings talked of the danger of tree branches breaking off. Whoever wrote that hasn’t been up here — there’s no trees (which helps for solar power — there’s no shade!)

etienne

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2030 on: October 01, 2017, 04:58:11 PM »
The curve looks differently from what I have seen from California, maybe Switzerland has more industrial activity.

California AC for cooling versus need for heating provided by oil/gas in Switzerland?

Yes, cooling might explain why the Californian curve doesn't go down in a summer evening. Switzerland has mainly cooling in offices and IT rooms, one ends probably around 5PM, and the other one is very stable.

Modification : Switzerland has a lot of electrical heating. This might explain the second peak in the winter evening => cooking + heating. With normal electrical heating, it is quite easy to adapt the temperature of the room to your need, which means less heating when at work.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 05:09:57 PM by etienne »

BenB

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2031 on: October 02, 2017, 09:45:44 AM »
UK wind power generation is literally off the scale at the moment on the Gridwatch site:

http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

For the year as a whole, wind power is running at 10.5% (http://www.ref.org.uk/fuel/index.php?tab=year&valdate=&share=Y&pd=M), but that doesn't include another 30% from embedded wind, so the real figure is more like 13.5%. Wind power provides a higher than average share in the final 3 months of the year, so we could be looking at over 14% for the full year 2017.

crandles

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2032 on: October 02, 2017, 02:38:44 PM »
Roll-up solar panels power Flat Holm island

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-41443312

but perhaps should be in hurricanes thread:
Quote
Roll-up solar panels are being used to help power an island off the coast of Cardiff.
The Rapid Roll system allows flexible solar panels to be unrolled like a carpet from a trailer in two minutes.
The pioneering technology aims to meet demands from increased tourism and environmental and logistical challenges on Flat Holm.
The hope is for the technology in future to offer a solution in areas hit by natural disasters like hurricanes.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2033 on: October 02, 2017, 06:32:51 PM »
UK wind power generation is literally off the scale at the moment on the Gridwatch site:

http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

For the year as a whole, wind power is running at 10.5% (http://www.ref.org.uk/fuel/index.php?tab=year&valdate=&share=Y&pd=M), but that doesn't include another 30% from embedded wind, so the real figure is more like 13.5%. Wind power provides a higher than average share in the final 3 months of the year, so we could be looking at over 14% for the full year 2017.

The UK doesn't get enough credit for cleaning up their grid.  In the 1940s the UK got 90% of their electricity from coal and the other 10% from oil.  Earlier this year the UK closed its last large coal plants.  The remaining nine smaller plants are to be closed by 2025. 

The UK closed their last underground coal mine last year.  What remaining coal to be burned between now and 2025 will come from smaller strip mines.

Hopefully due to the rapidly dropping price of offshore wind we'll see a lot more wind energy flowing into the UK allowing cuts to natural gas use in the near future.

etienne

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2034 on: October 02, 2017, 10:08:58 PM »

Bob Wallace

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2035 on: October 02, 2017, 11:17:43 PM »
here are the data for France
http://www.rte-france.com/en/eco2mix/eco2mix-mix-energetique-en

We'll probably see nothing like that again.  No country is likely build the sort of nuclear-based grid France built a few decades back.  Even France is in the process of reducing its reliance on nuclear.

France's wholesale cost of electricity is 29.5 euros/MWh  (Q1 2016).

In 2012 France reported...

“Production costs from the existing fleet are heading higher over the medium-term,” France’s Cour des Comptes said in a report to parliament published today.

The report, which updates findings in a January 2012 report, said that in 2012 the Court calculated the cost of production of the current fleet for 2010, which amounted to EUR 49.5 per megawatt-hour.

Using the same method for the year 2013 the cost was EUR 59.8/MWh, an increase of 20.6 percent over three years.

http://www.nucnet.org/all-the-news/2014/05/27/france-s-state-auditor-says-edf-s-nuclear-costs-are-increasing

 59.8 euros/MWh production cost with a wholesale rate of 29.5 euros/MWh suggests that the French government must be eating a lot of the cost of electricity.  Heavily subsidizing their paid off nuclear reactors.

France has announced that they will close about one-third (17) of their existing reactors by 2025 and replace them with wind and solar.  The new president has stated that the 2025 date may be a bit soft, but France is now installing replacement wind and solar.



Jim Hunt

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2036 on: October 03, 2017, 06:57:02 AM »
UK wind power generation is literally off the scale at the moment on the Gridwatch site

See also:

http://www.V2G.co.uk/2017/09/national-grid-launches-carbon-intensity-data-feed/#comment-58425

Quote
Carbon Intensity dropped to an all time record low of 73 gCO₂/kWh overnight
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etienne

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2037 on: October 03, 2017, 06:08:56 PM »
France's wholesale cost of electricity is 29.5 euros/MWh  (Q1 2016).
Not today.
https://www.eex.com/en/

For 10/4, the price is 51.95 and in Germany 28.65.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2038 on: October 03, 2017, 06:45:49 PM »
I found a source for quarterly wholesale prices of electricity in Europe

https://ec.europa.eu/energy/en/data-analysis/market-analysis

A quick look shows that the wholesale cost of electricity in France as consistently been higher than that of Germany and Denmark in each quarter starting from Q1 2016.  I have only the data from a single quarter back to 2013 and the same holds.  France, with all its paid off nuclear, does not have cheap electricity.

I'll try to pull down all the data and graph it later.

crandles

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2039 on: October 03, 2017, 07:15:35 PM »
What does 'paid off nuclear' mean? Surely a lot of the costs are decommissioning and they are not paid off until a long time after generation ceases?

Bob Wallace

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2040 on: October 03, 2017, 08:55:42 PM »
What does 'paid off nuclear' mean? Surely a lot of the costs are decommissioning and they are not paid off until a long time after generation ceases?

Paid off means that the costs of installing have been paid. 

Installation costs include "overnight costs" - planning, permitting, materials, equipment, labor - everything that goes into building something.  Plus the cost of financing the project from the start of the planning process until the day the plant switches on (cost of capital).

I don't know how France intends to deal with decommissioning costs.  US reactors are required to pay into a decommissioning fund so that (theoretically) the money will be there when the plant ages out.  Maybe France is adding in a decommissioning cost to their rates or maybe they will just use tax dollars.



etienne

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2041 on: October 04, 2017, 07:00:40 AM »
I believe that French nuclear reactors have reached the age where maintenance starts to be expensive. Many are above 20 or 30 years old. Like somebody said, it's in the 70' and 80' that nuclear reactors were growing like mushrooms in the countryside.
Average age was 28.7 in 2013.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_r%C3%A9acteurs_nucl%C3%A9aires_en_France#/media/File:%C3%82ge_en_2013_des_r%C3%A9acteurs_nucl%C3%A9aires_fran%C3%A7ais_%C3%A0_partir_de_la_date_de_1er_couplage.png

gerontocrat

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2042 on: October 04, 2017, 12:54:29 PM »
Nice article re current and projected growth sources of new energy.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/oct/04/solar-power-renewables-international-energy-agency
"Renewables accounted for two-thirds of new power added to world’s grids last year, says International Energy Agency (IEA)"

"The authority, which is funded by 28 member governments, admitted it had previously underestimated the speed at which green energy was growing."
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crandles

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2043 on: October 04, 2017, 02:46:38 PM »
Quote
One energy expert said that the IEA report was, if anything, underestimating the speed of renewables’ growth and the impact of them becoming so cheap.

Tim Buckley, director of energy finance studies at Australia-based analysts IEEFA, said: “2016 was another record high year of renewable installs and unexpectedly large renewable energy cost deflation, again highlighting the IEA’s continued underestimation of both these two trends driving the increasingly global market transformation.”

That does sound like it continues to be the case when you read things like
Quote
Despite the recent opening of the UK’s first subsidy-free solar farm, the prospects for British solar are fairly gloomy: the amount of solar forecast to be installed by 2022 is a fifth of the amount installed over the last five years.

gerontocrat

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2044 on: October 04, 2017, 03:28:33 PM »
The UK was ahead of the game, but, as usual.....
Quote
Despite the recent opening of the UK’s first subsidy-free solar farm, the prospects for British solar are fairly gloomy: the amount of solar forecast to be installed by 2022 is a fifth of the amount installed over the last five years.

"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
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crandles

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2045 on: October 04, 2017, 03:43:10 PM »
The UK was ahead of the game, but, as usual.....

or

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/sep/26/summer-green-energy-national-grid-carbon-emissions-solar-uk

“Between 21 June and 22 September, the carbon intensity of the grid – as measured in grammes of C02 emitted per KWh of power generated – was more than halved from its level over the same period four years ago.”

Second half obviously much much more difficult than first half, but still, just four years, wow!

Would be nice if IEA continues to be wrong a little while longer as it has been for so long.

numerobis

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2046 on: October 05, 2017, 02:25:23 PM »
Are IEA “forecasting” based on signed contracts? That would have them “forecast” installation next year, then no more — solar projects come online fast.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2047 on: October 05, 2017, 10:29:46 PM »
"Could @elonmusk go in and rebuild #PuertoRico’s electricity system with independent solar & battery systems?"

https://earther.com/puerto-rico-has-a-once-in-a-lifetime-opportunity-to-ret-1819143446


Elon Musk tweeted:
“The Tesla team has done this for many smaller islands around the world, but there is no scalability limit so it can be done for Puerto Rico too. Such a decision would be in the hands of the Puerto Rico government, PUC (Public Utilities Commission), any commercial stakeholders and, most importantly, the people of Puerto Rico.”
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/915939199718531072


Elon Musk says Tesla could rebuild Puerto Rico’s power grid with batteries and solar
Quote
Musk is referring to solar and battery projects that Tesla recently deployed on other islands, like Tesla’s visually stunning Powerpack and solar project in Kauai and the solar and a battery and solar microgrid on an island in the American Samoa.

Those projects power grids for much smaller populations, but Musk has always said that it’s scalable to support much larger islands, like Puerto Rico, and ultimately entire continents, which are just like big islands to a certain degree.

The thing is that those systems are still reliant on power lines for larger communities and devices, like solar panels and wind turbines, that are still subject to problems with natural disasters. ...
https://electrek.co/2017/10/05/elon-musk-tesla-rebuild-puerto-ricos-power-grid-batteries-solar/
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etienne

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2048 on: October 05, 2017, 10:41:12 PM »
Batteries work incredibly well. The question is more what kind of infrastructure should be used, more centralized like Tesla's mega project in Australia, or a network of batteries like in the Orkney Islands.

The network is probably more expensive to organize, but some costs can be supported by the owners of the buildings where they are installed and electricity transport lines could be reduced to the power needed to load the batteries.

sidd

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2049 on: October 06, 2017, 01:49:18 AM »