Support the Arctic Sea Ice Forum and Blog

Author Topic: Renewable Energy  (Read 440964 times)

etienne

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 282
    • View Profile
    • About energy
Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2500 on: February 05, 2018, 11:00:40 PM »
I still don't get the economics of this relative to utility-scale. It seems like a great idea for social justice though, so I'm all for it.

There's no way the installation process is going to be cheaper on a house than on a plot of land out in the country. When you're setting up megawatts in a field, it's pretty simple. Setting up kilowatts on each of thousands of homes is a lot more fiddly work, each project similar but slightly different.

For the economical side, I don't know, but from a smart grid and technical point of view it is very interesting. You don't need cooling for the inverters, you don't have problems in case of failure because only few kW and concerned, you have people who are worried about making some money so they check regularely if it works properly, you don't use agricultural land for energy production... I don't think that it helps anything regarding power transportation cables because maximum loads often don't match with maximum consumption time. I just checked a refrigerated building today where a 120 kWc installation would have only reduce of 30 kW the peak consumption of the building last year. The issue is that we had a hot cloudy evening in July last year, so we had a high consumption around 6-7 pm with a low production.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 10462
    • View Profile
Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2501 on: February 06, 2018, 03:21:28 PM »
Renewables taking a bite out of fossil fuel business.

Tesla’s giant battery in Australia is already eating away at ‘gas cartel’s’ profits, report says
When an issue happens or maintenance is required on the power grid in Australia, the Energy Market Operator calls for FCAS (frequency control and ancillary services) which consists of large and costly gas generators kicking in to compensate for the loss of power.

These services are so costly that it can sometimes amount to up to $7 million per day – or 10 times the regular value of the energy delivered.

Electricity rates can be seen reaching $14,000 per MW during those FCAS periods.

Now Renewecomy reports that FCAS were required on January 14, but the prices didn’t skyrocket to $14,000 per MW and they instead were maintained at around $270/MW after a short spike.

The bidding of Tesla’s 100MW/ 129MWh Powerpack project in South Australia on the services is credited with escaping the price hike, which would have cost energy generator and consumers millions in costs.

The Powerpack system is able to switch from charging to discharging in a fraction of a second, which allows Neoen, the operator of the system, to quickly respond when frequency issues happen. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/02/06/tesla-giant-battery-australia-gas-cartels-profit-report/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

sidd

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2037
    • View Profile
Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2502 on: February 08, 2018, 11:18:17 PM »

TerryM

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 2702
    • View Profile
Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2503 on: February 08, 2018, 11:49:56 PM »
Canada sues over solar tariffs:

http://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/372980-canadian-solar-companies-sue-trump-over-tariffs

sidd


We'll sue. We'll win. They won't pay.
Check any of the soft lumber disputes.


And the US worries about "Rogue Nations".
Terry

Mathiasdm

  • ASIF Lurker
  • Posts: 10
    • View Profile
Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2504 on: February 09, 2018, 07:15:33 AM »
Canada sues over solar tariffs:

http://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/372980-canadian-solar-companies-sue-trump-over-tariffs

sidd


We'll sue. We'll win. They won't pay.
Check any of the soft lumber disputes.


And the US worries about "Rogue Nations".
Terry

Don't worry, the EU will fix it, like they did last time.

BenB

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 106
    • View Profile
Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2505 on: February 09, 2018, 10:22:49 AM »
Not sure whether this belongs under renewables, but as intermittency is frequently cited as the main problem with renewables, and capacity auctions are designed to mitigate that, I figure it may as well go here.

The UK just held its capacity market auction for 2021/2022, and the clearning price was £8/kw/ year. 50 GW of capacity was auctioned, so the overall price is ~£400 million. Given that total annual electricity generation is around 280 million MWh, that is equivalent to ~£1.5/MWh. So the cost of backing up renewables in the UK seems fairly affordable. For more details:

https://www.emrdeliverybody.com/Capacity%20Markets%20Document%20Library/Provisional%20T-4%20Results%20DY%202021-22.pdf

Unsurprisingly, most of the capacity contracts were awarded to gas, some to nuclear, some to coal, some to interconnectors, some to demand-side-response, etc.

numerobis

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 532
    • View Profile
Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2506 on: February 09, 2018, 05:57:22 PM »
"total annual electricity generation is around 280 million MWh" -- where do you get this figure?

Some of these have negative generation (the storage options), so I'm dubious that the GBP 1.50/MWh figure is valid.

A tiny fraction went to batteries -- about 150 MW. Which would have been considered to be a huge amount a couple years ago.

BenB

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 106
    • View Profile
Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2507 on: February 10, 2018, 09:04:11 AM »
For total generation, see: http://www.ref.org.uk/fuel/index.php?tab=year&share=N

They have 268 million MWh, but that doesn't include solar and embedded wind, so I upped it a bit. I imagine I'm within a couple of percent of the actual number, which is more than good enough for these purposes. In any case, the number will be different in 2021, but we can't know that yet.

For my calculation, it doesn't matter whether the capacity auction is won by negative or positive capacity, as I'm looking at the overall cost to the electric power system of ensuring that "the lights stay on". So my average cost is the average cost to the electric power system per MWh it generates over the course of the year. The 1.5£ per MWh is 0.15p per kwh, so a percent or so of the end user's bill.

Of course you can argue about the exact cost, but the point is really to show that when people say "you don't know when the wind is going to blow, so the power it produces is worthless, because you have to back it up", that's not true, as there's actually a low, measurable cost of guaranteeing supply. And of course many people argue that these capacity auctions are unnecessary, as we'd have enough available capacity without them. So in some ways it's a worst case scenario cost. And obviously it isn't just backing up renewables.

numerobis

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 532
    • View Profile
Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2508 on: February 10, 2018, 03:31:53 PM »
The total energy used by the grid annually isn’t really relevant. What matters in this kind of auction is the peak power. That’s why storage can win these auctions, whereas wind or PV can’t.

BenB

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 106
    • View Profile
Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2509 on: February 11, 2018, 08:27:26 AM »
The total energy used by the grid annually isn’t really relevant. What matters in this kind of auction is the peak power. That’s why storage can win these auctions, whereas wind or PV can’t.

Of course what is being auctioned is peak power, and the cost of that is the £8 per Mw per year as I said originally. But I'm trying to give an idea of what that translates into in relation to the overall costs of the electric power system. Put simply, those are generation costs (spot price and/or ppa price x amount generated) + transmission and distribution costs + capacity auction to ensure system never is unable to meet demand  + taxes, margins, etc.

To make that comparison, you have to look at overall generation per year, because this capacity auction is for a year, and the price is stated in Mw per year.

oren

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1712
    • View Profile
Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2510 on: February 11, 2018, 09:40:08 AM »
BenB, I understand what you're saying but bear in mind that once most energy is supplied by renewables, there will be many fossil plants that will be shuttered, and then the capacity auctions might not end with similar prices. Currently those who bid in the capacity auctions make money from selling normal energy production as well.
Everything is solvable, but it would be wrong to extrapolate from the current situation to a wholly different situation.

BenB

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 106
    • View Profile
Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2511 on: February 11, 2018, 12:10:27 PM »
BenB, I understand what you're saying but bear in mind that once most energy is supplied by renewables, there will be many fossil plants that will be shuttered, and then the capacity auctions might not end with similar prices. Currently those who bid in the capacity auctions make money from selling normal energy production as well.
Everything is solvable, but it would be wrong to extrapolate from the current situation to a wholly different situation.

Well, of course the prices may go up, but the capacity auction is for 2021/22, so already some years in the future. And the backers of the capacity auctions say that they are needed precisely to keep power stations open that would otherwise be shuttered because they wouldn't be used enough over the course of the year. But even if prices were to quadruple, for the sake of argument, they would still be very much affordable within the context of the overall cost of generating power and distributing it to end users. And while some gas power stations will no doubt be shuttered, options like demand response and batteries will become cheaper, and new international interconnectors are coming online (interconnectors already won a significant proportion of the auction).

gerontocrat

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1201
    • View Profile
Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2512 on: February 11, 2018, 12:17:55 PM »
NEVADA 1 GIGAWATT SOLAR ENERGY PROJECT

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-02-09/cheap-solar-makes-a-big-bet-in-nevada

Swiss asset manager Capital Dynamics AG will build a one-gigawatt portfolio of solar farms in Nevada, one of the largest such projects in the U.S., with technology infrastructure company Switch Inc. as an “anchor tenant.” The two companies expect the cost of power generated by Gigawatt 1 to be significantly lower than what the local utility charges.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"

gerontocrat

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1201
    • View Profile
Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2513 on: February 12, 2018, 03:46:52 PM »
In Australia, despite the Federal Government's addiction to coal (and gas), solar power is happening fast.

Australia's solar power boom could almost double capacity in a year, analysts say
Solar farm approvals and record rooftop installations expected to ‘turbo-boost’ production
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/feb/11/australias-solar-power-boom-could-almost-double-capacity-in-a-year-analysts-say
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 10462
    • View Profile
Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2514 on: February 12, 2018, 09:42:00 PM »
Iceland’s green energy cred has attracted Bitcoin mining operations.

“In Iceland, bitcoin mining is now on track to use more electricity than all homes combined in 2018.
There are so many proposed data centers that it won't be possible to supply power to all of them, according to local officials.”
    https://twitter.com/ericholthaus/status/963149730841731072

Bitcoin energy use in Iceland set to overtake homes, says local firm
http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43030677
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Ken Feldman

  • ASIF Lurker
  • Posts: 9
    • View Profile
Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2515 on: February 13, 2018, 11:35:47 PM »
Solar plus battery storage is now cheaper than natural gas in Arizona:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-12/a-powerful-mix-of-solar-and-batteries-is-beating-natural-gas

Natural gas is getting edged out of power markets across the U.S. by two energy sources that, together, are proving to be an unbeatable mix: solar and batteries.

In just the latest example, First Solar Inc. won a power contract to supply Arizona’s biggest utility when electricity demand on its system typically peaks, between 3 p.m. and 8 p.m. The panel maker beat out bids from even power plants burning cheap gas by proposing to build a 65-megawatt solar farm that will, in turn, feed a 50-megawatt battery system.

It’s a powerful combination for meeting peak demand because of when the sun shines. Here’s how it’ll work: The panels will generate solar power when the sun’s out to charge the batteries. The utility will draw on those batteries as the sun starts to set and demand starts to rise.

Just last week, NextEra Energy Inc.’s Florida utility similarly installed a battery system that’ll back up a solar farm and boost generation. In California, regulators have called on PG&E Corp. to use batteries or other non-fossil fuel resources instead of supplies from gas-fired plants to meet peak demand.

numerobis

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 532
    • View Profile
Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2516 on: February 14, 2018, 09:57:40 PM »
Do you have a cite on the price? The story says solar+battery won but doesn’t say it was cheapest, just “competitive”.

Ken Feldman

  • ASIF Lurker
  • Posts: 9
    • View Profile
Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2517 on: February 14, 2018, 10:26:49 PM »
Do you have a cite on the price? The story says solar+battery won but doesn’t say it was cheapest, just “competitive”.

They didn't announce a price.  More details are available here:

https://www.utilitydive.com/news/aps-to-install-50-mw-135-mwh-solar-shifting-battery/516850/

Here is some cost information from other recent solar plus battery projects cited in the article:

The APS project comes on the heels of a pair of high-profile solar-plus-storage projects announced last year. In January, a Hawaii co-op signed a deal for a 28 MW solar array with a 100 MWh battery system for $0.11/kWh, below the retail rate of electricity there. And in May, Tucson Electric Power signed a deal for 100 MW of solar and a 120 MWh battery for "significantly less than $0.045/kWh over 20 years," the lowest publicly available price for such a project.

APS did not release pricing information for its new project, but charging the battery mostly with solar power could allow it to qualify for a 30% federal investment tax credit for solar facilities.

numerobis

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 532
    • View Profile
Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2518 on: February 15, 2018, 04:25:10 AM »
The Colorado auction had solar+battery bids well below the Phoenix deal, about 0.35/kWh.

This auction sounds like the winning bid didn’t win entirely on price, but were close enough for monopoly work. Parity is very near, and the natural gas dissipates fast.

BenB

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 106
    • View Profile
Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2519 on: February 15, 2018, 11:56:38 AM »
Europe installed record amounts of wind power last year (16.8 GW of installed capacity),
 but there are fears that this will decline sharply over the coming years:

https://www.windpowermonthly.com/article/1456946/race-beat-auctions-sees-european-capacity-grow-20

In 2017, wind energy covered 11.6% of the EU’s electricity demand, generating 336 TWh, up from just under 300 TWh in 2016:

https://windeurope.org/about-wind/statistics/european/wind-in-power-2017/

WindEurope's full annual report can be found here:

https://windeurope.org/wp-content/uploads/files/about-wind/statistics/WindEurope-Annual-Statistics-2017.pdf

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 10462
    • View Profile
Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2520 on: February 15, 2018, 04:23:02 PM »
Progress!  Technology many people didn’t think was possible even a few years ago.

Tesla to partner with NY utility company on battery storage system
If approved, O&R expects the NY battery storage system to earn up to $788,000 annually. From these earnings, 90% of the wholesale market revenue will be given to O&R to offset the project’s cost, while the remaining 10% will be given to Tesla. Overall, the Edison Consolidated utility provider remains optimistic about the proposed battery storage system.

“When energy storage is deployed for multiple value streams, the amount of value and revenue generated on a per unit basis increases to capture previously idle storage capacity for productive use. This additional revenue means that multi-use applications of energy storage can be economically viable in locations where single-use applications are not,” the utility provider stated, according to the APPA.
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-con-edison-utility-new-york-powerpack-battery-system/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

sidd

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2037
    • View Profile
Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2521 on: February 16, 2018, 02:00:12 AM »
Beautiful work on power from ambient temperature variations. They coupled a phase change material with a high thermal conductivity foam, stored heat energy in the phase change material and harvested it via thermocouple.

doi: 10.1038/s41467-018-03029-x

Tiny amount of energy so far, microwatt per sq. cm. of surface, but thats milliwatts from a meter size install. Wonder if they can extend the concept to seasonal variation.

Open access. Read all about it.

sidd

Ken Feldman

  • ASIF Lurker
  • Posts: 9
    • View Profile
Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2522 on: February 16, 2018, 10:45:48 PM »
Here's another story on batteries plus solar replacing peakers (power plants that operate to supply peak loads): https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Big-Batteries-Are-Becoming-Much-Cheaper.html



Big Batteries Are Becoming Much Cheaper

By Irina Slav - Feb 15, 2018, 3:00 PM CST
  Tech

Huge battery arrays are undermining peakers—the gas-fired power plants deployed during peak demand—and could in the future completely change the face of the power market.

Batteries are hot right now. Energy storage was referred to as the Holy Grail of renewables by one industry executive, as it would solve its main problem: intermittency. No wonder then that everyone is working hard on storage.

They are working so hard, it seems, that prices, which used to be a major obstacle along the path toward renewable energy storage gaining ground, have fallen much lower than the price of traditionally generated and stored energy, the Wall Street Journal notes in a recent story on giant batteries.

One Minnesota utility, Xcel Energy, not long ago, carried out a tender for the construction of a solar + storage installation, receiving 87 bids whose average price per megawatt hour was just US$36. This compares with US$87 for electricity generated by peakers, with the price including the cost of construction and fuel purchases for the plant.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 10462
    • View Profile
Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2523 on: February 17, 2018, 09:52:16 PM »
It’s a storage facility and a peaker plant! And a frequency regulator. And capacity. And spinning reserves....

California regulators first to allow multiple revenue streams for energy storage
The state has approved rules that increase the ways for energy storage systems to make money, for example, through frequency regulation, capacity or spinning reserve services.
In mid-January, the CPUC  rejected Calpine’s efforts to secure reliability must-run contracts for three of its gas-fired plants — the 580 MW Metcalf Energy Center south of San Jose and two 47 MW peaking plants in Yuba City.

The CPUC ruled that the reliability must-run contracts are too costly and, instead, authorized Pacific Gas and Electric (PG&E) to procure energy storage or preferred resources, such as distributed solar, to replace the capacity of the three Calpine plants.

Analysts believe it is the first time a utility is procuring energy storage to replace capacity from an existing gas plant.
More revenue generation options

Under the new revenue stacking rules, projects proposed in the upcoming solicitations could have more options for revenue generation. For example, an energy storage project that is designed to replace a gas peaking plant could be idle for long periods of time. Under the new rules, that storage facility could be put to use when idle to provide services such as frequency regulation, capacity or spinning reserves.

“There is no reason to have a storage project run as infrequently as a peaker,” Morris said. Presumably, the upcoming solicitations will draw proposals for hybrid or multi-use storage projects, he told Utility Dive.
https://www.utilitydive.com/news/california-regulators-first-to-allow-multiple-revenue-streams-for-energy-st/516927/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.