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Bob Wallace

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2700 on: May 08, 2018, 05:35:56 PM »
In the US NG plants are being built but not as fast as coal is decreasing and wind/solar growing.  Fossil fuels for electricity are showing a net loss.


Archimid

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2701 on: May 10, 2018, 03:17:35 AM »
Interesting video:

The 'duck curve' is solar energy's greatest challenge




And then as I wondered how to chop his head off I stumbled into this nifty graph:

Source: https://www.treehugger.com/energy-policy/economist-looks-duck-curve-goes-quackers-metaphors.html
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2702 on: May 10, 2018, 05:59:27 AM »
Just blow a bunch of wind up the duck's butt.


oren

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2703 on: May 10, 2018, 12:30:17 PM »
I think once the market is moved to time-of-day pricing based on available supply, many things could almost take care of themselves. With the rapid advance of electronics, this should be feasible in a decade. Air conditioning, dishwashers, washing machines, tumble dryers, and quite a few other appliances can be programmed to take advantage of very low market rates, not to mention the number one future electricity hog, EVs that can charge themselves in a flexible manner.
Of course this could all take place in a centralized manner, controlled by the utility, but I suspect it will be solved more easily by people making their own decisions based on need and cost.

TerryM

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2704 on: May 10, 2018, 01:05:45 PM »
They tried centrally controlling A/C in Las Vegas - hugh negative feedback.
Terry

Bob Wallace

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2705 on: May 10, 2018, 03:34:14 PM »
I think once the market is moved to time-of-day pricing based on available supply, many things could almost take care of themselves. With the rapid advance of electronics, this should be feasible in a decade. Air conditioning, dishwashers, washing machines, tumble dryers, and quite a few other appliances can be programmed to take advantage of very low market rates, not to mention the number one future electricity hog, EVs that can charge themselves in a flexible manner.
Of course this could all take place in a centralized manner, controlled by the utility, but I suspect it will be solved more easily by people making their own decisions based on need and cost.

Let's say that there's a "sale" on electricity at 10:15 AM on May 10.  TOU pricing drops low compared to the average price.

All plugged in EVs start charging, dishwashers and clothes washers/dryers start up, refers and freezers start cooling down a bit extra. 

Utility suddenly has to scramble to meet extra demand and TOU price goes high.  Dispatchable loads (EVs, dishwashers, etc.) drop off.

Load plunges causing TOU price to drop.  There's a new sale on electricity at 10:17 AM.

Bouncy-bouncy.

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2706 on: May 10, 2018, 04:39:06 PM »
If I was a dishwashing machine (I am a dishwasher at home, but my wife wishes I finished the job more frequently), I would want a price 'guaranteed' for an hour (or something), so that when I decide to start, I can continue to do my thing. 

A little less bounciness.
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ghoti

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2707 on: May 10, 2018, 04:42:39 PM »
Time of use pricing for electricity is largely ineffective at changing residential consumption patterns. In Ontario when time of use pricing was implemented with low rates between 7pm and 7am and two levels of mid-peak and peak divided 7-11am, 11am-5pm, and 5pm-7pm the main impact was a significant increase in electricity costs to consumers. Peak rates are more than double low rates and still most people just complain about the price and don't change their usage.

A large part of the timing of electrical usage can't be easily shifted - winter peak is when you wake up and prepare breakfast and for work/school and when you get home from school/work and prepare supper. In the winter you have to heat your house 24/7 regardless of time of use rates. Refrigerators and freezers run 24/7.

Sure you can run washer/dryer/dishwasher during low rate times but that turns out to be a minor percentage of overall usage.

I am extremely diligent about shifting everything possible to low rate times and I still end up with 1/4 of my usage outside of low periods and thus about half the price outside of low periods. Vast majority of people don't have the luxury of shifting their life that way.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2708 on: May 10, 2018, 05:06:47 PM »
If I was a dishwashing machine (I am a dishwasher at home, but my wife wishes I finished the job more frequently), I would want a price 'guaranteed' for an hour (or something), so that when I decide to start, I can continue to do my thing. 

A little less bounciness.

And that means direct communication between device and utility.  Not just device working off a price signal.

"Wash my dishes between now and 5 PM."  Signing up for that plan would mean the lowest possible cost for electricity during that interval.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2709 on: May 10, 2018, 05:17:59 PM »
Quote
A large part of the timing of electrical usage can't be easily shifted - winter peak is when you wake up and prepare breakfast and for work/school and when you get home from school/work and prepare supper. In the winter you have to heat your house 24/7 regardless of time of use rates. Refrigerators and freezers run 24/7.

1)  Time of use needs to be automated.  Few people are going to keep checking rates in order to save a few pennies.  A small amount of processing in the device can do that job.

2)  A larger part of your usage can be shifted than you expect. 

If you are morning shower people then a smart water heater can heat up using the cheapest electricity of the night.  If you shower after work or before bed a smart heater can learn your schedule (even sleeping in on Saturdays) and buy the least expensive electricity.

Your house AC and refer/freezer can cool down an extra few degrees in late afternoon with solar is creating less expensive electricity, avoid needing to pull power during the early evening 'duck head' peak.

If you stick your dishes in the dishwasher after dinner and don't care when they get washed as long as they are washed by 7 AM that' a dispatchable load. 

We could be using combo washer/dryers for our clothes rather than separate units.  Throw in clothes in the morning and take them out when you get home.  Or do your laundry overnight.  The actual time doesn't matter, another dispatchable load.

Pool sweeps and filters.  Robo lawn mower charging.  EV charging.

Lots of potential dispatchable loads. 

TerryM

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2710 on: May 10, 2018, 06:09:41 PM »
I worked on developing a robo lawn mower in my spare time for a few years, but could never get past the need to keep it from nipping at sleeping cats, or to keeping it away from thieving hands.
Well before GPS and GPS tracking was even a thing.
A car battery provided enough power for a single pass, and a charging mower house kept it out of the elements, but I wanted it quiet enough to work at night yet menacing enough to scare the neighborhood beasts.
The passions of a middle aged tinkerer.
Terry

Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2711 on: May 10, 2018, 08:46:28 PM »

...
Pool sweeps and filters.  Robo lawn mower charging.  EV charging.

Lots of potential dispatchable loads.

When the utility installs powerful enough computers to deal with... millions?... of internet-connected things, it will be able to turn any of them on and off as needed, yet still finishing the dishwasher cycle or getting the EV charge to 80% by 6am.  Knowing which devices need an uninterrupted cycle (bread machines!) and which can be started and stopped multiple times (EV charging).
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2712 on: May 10, 2018, 08:50:48 PM »

...
Pool sweeps and filters.  Robo lawn mower charging.  EV charging.

Lots of potential dispatchable loads.

When the utility installs powerful enough computers to deal with... millions?... of internet-connected things, it will be able to turn any of them on and off as needed, yet still finishing the dishwasher cycle or getting the EV charge to 80% by 6am.  Knowing which devices need an uninterrupted cycle (bread machines!) and which can be started and stopped multiple times (EV charging).

I suspect there are ways to simplify the system.  Each device sends in a 'requirement'.  Similar requirements are pooled and a pool number is sent back to devices.  Then the utility can signal "Pool A34252BE" start or stop as needs be. 

magnamentis

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2713 on: May 10, 2018, 09:31:54 PM »
Duck Curve

Solution is storage for the excess on mid-days and fast release on peak times.

as they stated it's kind of hard to achieve with the current infrastructure but as we all know
we have to replace our current infrastructure anyways, perhaps this problem will even accelerate
the process due to technical necessities.

etienne

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2714 on: May 10, 2018, 10:43:26 PM »
Somebody had posted a link to a project in the Orkney Islands where people buy batteries, put them in their home, but let the utility company manage it. I think this is part of the solution. The utility company is the only one that has a global view on the network and know when to load or unload the batteries. Managing yourself your batteries doesn't make sense from a network point of view because you might empty them when there is an oversupply of electricity, or fill them when there isn't enough power available.
Another part of the solution is a pricing for the yearly peak power. It could even go further, you would make a contract for a maximum like 15 kW and if you are above it, there would be some kind of signal informing you, or some non critical loads could be turned off automatically (dryer...).
I really believe that V2G could help a lot, because there will be a lot of battery power that is unused most of the time. On a normal day, my car could be plugged at least 22 hours. Even if transportation would not be done by private cars anymore but with shared automatic cars, there still would be peak times and low demand times. Another idea could be to have an automatic system that would put into your car the batteries you need for the driving you have to do, the other batteries staying home for load balancing. You would save energy because you would drive with a lighter car and you would always have fully loaded batteries waiting for you at home.
Smart grid with internet of things is a good idea, but it is very complex and require many changes in the existing infrastructure. For example we have a project where water is overheated when PV power is available, and one issue is that the insulation of the boiler is not thick enough for high temperatures so it cools of quite a lot at night, we are now reducing maximum temperature until this is fixed, the aim is not to use electricity but to store heat. I believe that we need easier solutions to handle now the duck curve problem than the smart grid concept.

TerryM

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2715 on: May 11, 2018, 12:15:33 AM »
etienne
I'm sure you're already on top of this but insulating the hot water pipes can help, especially if your building circulates the hot water.
Terry

etienne

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2716 on: May 11, 2018, 08:30:05 AM »
Hi Terry,
We stopped the water circulation at night. This already helped a lot. These pipes should already be insulated but are not accessible so we can't control, and couldn't change it anyway. We only stop the circulation at night because we want to avoid to be regularely in the bacteria developpment range. 
Etienne

TerryM

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2717 on: May 11, 2018, 12:17:12 PM »
etienne
Your system is more complex than anything I've worked on. We basically used solar as a feed to the existing water heater tank and called it a day. We did insulate all of the exposed piping, blanketed the solar tank and the heater tank but left the thermostat alone - same temperature day or night.


If you noticed a big change between circulating and static temperatures it sounds as though the pipes are where you're losing a major portion of your heat. Putting an extra blanket on the tank(s) can't hurt, but the ROI may be disapointing.


Best of luck
Terry

etienne

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2718 on: May 11, 2018, 01:32:20 PM »
Terry,
You don't have all the information, this is why you can't understand the context. Water is heated by a heat pump up to 47°C, overheated by heat pump up to 55°C, than overheating with an electrical heater, originally up to 75°C.
Overheating occurs only when PV power is available, but PV power is not free because in Luxembourg we have to pay taxes and network costs on it (network was available to provide the PV power we used), around 5 cents per kWh all included. Heating with network electricity and overheating with PV electricity has a similar price, but when we overheat and loose the heat at night because the boiler is not enough insulated, there is a financial loss.
Sounds crazy. Taxes and network costs are only on AC current, so there are solutions to heat your water directly from the DC current coming from the PV panels.

If water in the boiler has 47°C, it's like 25°C more than room temperature, if it is at 75°C, it's a 53°C temperature difference, more than twice the original difference, so heat loss are more than twice  the values in standard configuration, so you better have a good insulation. If you have solar thermal, it's not so much an issue, but when heated with electricity, it's problematic.

Well, the only thing I wanted to say at the begining is that it is not so easy to develop smart grid technologies because the existing infrastructure is not compatible with concepts like overheating, overcooling... that there are many hidden costs on the infrastructure.
 
Etienne

Archimid

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2719 on: May 11, 2018, 04:24:47 PM »
Costa Rica to ban fossil fuels and become world's first decarbonised society

https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/costa-rica-fossil-fuels-ban-president-carlos-alvarado-climate-change-global-warming-a8344541.html

Quote
Last month, Mr Alvarado said the Central American country would begin to implement a plan to end fossil fuel use in transport by 2021 – the 200th year of Costa Rican independence.

"When we reach 200 years of independent life we will take Costa Rica forward and celebrate ... that we've removed gasoline and diesel from our transportation,” he promised during a victory speech.

I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2720 on: May 11, 2018, 04:39:27 PM »
No more fossil fuel for personal vehicles by 2021?  Lots of farms in CR use small pickups.  Where are they going to get a battery powered replacement?  And how could they afford one?

It's been a number of years since I was last in CR but at the time farmers were using rather barebones Toyota diesel pickups.  A pickup that Toyota was building so it could be sold at the lowest possible price - no air bags, roll up windows, no AC.  But, interestingly, crank open windshields to let air in the front.  Like our 1949 International pickup.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2721 on: May 11, 2018, 05:11:04 PM »
No more fossil fuel for personal vehicles by 2021?  Lots of farms in CR use small pickups.  Where are they going to get a battery powered replacement?  And how could they afford one?
...

It’s all in how you define “transportation.” :) He may intend to include personal and city transport, but not country or farm vehicles.
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numerobis

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2722 on: May 11, 2018, 06:57:39 PM »
No more fossil fuel for personal vehicles by 2021?

"Begin to implement a plan" isn't synonymous with "no more fossil fuel for personal vehicles".

Bob Wallace

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2723 on: May 11, 2018, 08:03:33 PM »
No more fossil fuel for personal vehicles by 2021?

"Begin to implement a plan" isn't synonymous with "no more fossil fuel for personal vehicles".

I read it this way -

"begin to implement a plan to end fossil fuel use in transport by 2021"

Begin it now.

" a plan to end fossil fuel use in transport by 2021 – the 200th year of Costa Rican independence. "

End fossil fuel use in transport by 2021.

And this put the icing on my reading cake -

"When we reach 200 years of independent life (2021) we will take Costa Rica forward and celebrate ... that we've removed gasoline and diesel from our transportation,” he promised during a victory speech.

He could have been talking only about public transportation.  That would mean battery powered buses and taxis.  I don't think CR has any rail left after the San Jose to Limon route was wiped out by an earthquake.  (Too bad, it was a great ride.  Very slow but very scenic.)

oren

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2724 on: May 11, 2018, 10:15:11 PM »
I read it the same way, and I think you're probably right, he meant public transportation.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2725 on: May 15, 2018, 06:02:19 PM »
The southeast U.S. has strong solar power potential. And strong utility monopolies.

How Solar Panels on a Church Rooftop Broke the Law in North Carolina
An environmental group and a largely African-American church tried to challenge North Carolina’s utility monopoly (Duke Energy) by generating cheap, clean power. They lost.
https://insideclimatenews.org/news/14052018/north-carolina-rooftop-solar-panel-laws-duke-utility-monopoly-court-ruling-church-clean-energy
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2726 on: May 15, 2018, 06:20:44 PM »
Quote
The U.S. Geological Survey just put out a new detailed map of every wind turbine in the country. The effort, in conjunction with the U.S. Energy Department, gets continuously updated with public and private data, satellite imagery and technical check-ups. Several things have changed in this new version:

The USWTDB Viewer, created by the USGS Energy Resources Program, lets you visualize, inspect, interact, and download the most current USWTDB through a dynamic web application. The USWTDB Viewer replaces an earlier web application called WindFarm and includes many enhancements made based on comments and suggestions from WindFarm users. Data-driven styling and expanded filtering capabilities make accessing the USWTDB information easier and quicker than ever

This is in the public domain and free to use with proper acknowledgment.
https://electrek.co/2018/05/14/egeb-apple-alcoa-rio-tinto-zero-emission-aluminum-map-turbine-us-uniper-convert-wind-methane/


The U.S. Wind Turbine Database
https://eerscmap.usgs.gov/uswtdb/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2727 on: May 17, 2018, 02:01:48 AM »
Nissan is Following Tesla Into Solar Power and Home Batteries
Quote
Given the weather in the United Kingdom—that cloudy, foggy, drizzly country—it doesn’t seem like the best place to launch a business that revolves around solar power. But this is where the builder of the world’s best selling electric car just started selling Nissan Energy Solar, a generation-to-acceleration scheme that equips customers with roof-mounted panels and a battery to store some of the electricity they generate. If they drive a Leaf, or Nissan’s e-NV200 electric van, they can combine the whole process and drive from Scotland to Wales to wherever, guilt-free, fog lights on, windshield wipers whisking away.

Despite the weather, solar works well in the UK. Panels can do their thing even with indirect sunlight, and the country’s northerly position makes for 16 hours of daytime during the summer. Nearly a million people there already use solar panels, according to Nissan. Adding batteries to the mix will help them stay powered up even when the weather turns, well, normal. “It enables UK homeowners to make significant savings on their household electricity bills, and become champions of sustainability and green technology,” says Gareth Dunsmore, electric vehicle director for Nissan Europe. ...
https://www.wired.com/story/nissan-solar-panels-home-batteries/
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numerobis

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2728 on: May 17, 2018, 05:06:13 AM »
I thought Nissan had a home battery before Tesla made theirs?

Sleepy

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2729 on: May 17, 2018, 07:12:06 AM »
Germany began offering a subsidy for residential lithium-ion battery systems in 2013. 4000 systems were installed the first year.
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Neven

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2730 on: May 17, 2018, 10:49:24 AM »
Germany began offering a subsidy for residential lithium-ion battery systems in 2013. 4000 systems were installed the first year.

Yes, and it's starting to become affordable. I saw that SMA has recently launched a special battery inverter called Sunny Boy Storage, and you can buy it together with 10 kWh worth of LiFePo batteries for around 8000 Euros. If my next step wasn't an EV, I would be interested in this. But who knows, maybe in 2-3 years.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2731 on: May 17, 2018, 01:07:47 PM »
100% Of Villages In India Now Have Electricity
Quote
Every inhabited village in India has access to electricity after Leisang village in Manipur was connected to the national power grid. As of the end of April, all villages are now powered through traditional lines or off-grid solutions. They were able to meet Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s goal of electrifying all villages by May 11th of this year.

India’s 597,464 total villages now have access to power as of April 28th. They’ve been able to accomplish this feat with a mixture of extending the national power grid and using solar panels for locations that traditional methods can’t reach. The most recent off-grid system came online in another village in Manipur, Pakol. ...
http://www.greenmatters.com/news/2018/05/01/22qwul/indian-electrified-villages
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etienne

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2732 on: May 17, 2018, 08:14:19 PM »
Thanks Neven, I haven't seen those. Been thinking about these for a while (short video in the comments above):
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1150.msg154584.html#msg154584
That route is not everyones cup of tea of course.
I have seen similar price on IBC batteries.

JimD

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2733 on: May 18, 2018, 04:07:50 PM »
Bitcoin estimated to use half a percent of the world's electric energy by end of 2018

Quote
His estimates, based in economics, put the minimum current usage of the Bitcoin network at 2.55 gigawatts, which means it uses almost as much electricity as Ireland. A single transaction uses as much electricity as an average household in the Netherlands uses in a month. By the end of this year, he predicts the network could be using as much as 7.7 gigawatts--as much as Austria and half of a percent of the world's total consumption. "To me, half a percent is already quite shocking. It's an extreme difference compared to the regular financial system, and this increasing electricity demand is definitely not going to help us reach our climate goals," he says. If the price of Bitcoin continues to increase the way some experts have predicted, de Vries believes the network could someday consume 5% of the world's electricity. "That would be quite bad."

By the end of next year at the current rate of increased energy consumption bitcoin calculations will consume electricity equivalent to all of that generated by renewable sources. By the end of this year it will consume 25% of all electricity generated by renewable resources. We sure seem to be spinning our wheels don't we.

https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2018-05/cp-bet051018.php

https://www.cell.com/joule/abstract/S2542-4351(18)30177-6

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How is it conceivable that all our technological progress - our very civilization - is like the axe in the hand of the pathological criminal? Albert Einstein

numerobis

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2734 on: May 18, 2018, 04:54:48 PM »
Renewables generate a lot more than half a percent of our electricity. But there’s a thread for this already.

numerobis

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2735 on: May 18, 2018, 05:30:28 PM »
https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2018/5/18/17359730/wind-solar-power-grid-electricity-managers

@drvox (who is somewhat skeptical of renewables) reviews an LBNL paper about what happens when renewables hit 40% of generation. Strangely, it seems silent on batteries or other storage. That said, it mentions sharp evening peaks just after sunset, and a sharp rise in ancillary services -- both of which are what batteries are best at dealing with.

The paper and its supporting data: https://emp.lbl.gov/publications/impacts-high-variable-renewable

Bob Wallace might be particularly interested in the data for his spreadsheets on overbuilding.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2736 on: May 18, 2018, 06:59:30 PM »
https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2018/5/18/17359730/wind-solar-power-grid-electricity-managers

@drvox (who is somewhat skeptical of renewables) reviews an LBNL paper about what happens when renewables hit 40% of generation. Strangely, it seems silent on batteries or other storage. That said, it mentions sharp evening peaks just after sunset, and a sharp rise in ancillary services -- both of which are what batteries are best at dealing with.

The paper and its supporting data: https://emp.lbl.gov/publications/impacts-high-variable-renewable

Bob Wallace might be particularly interested in the data for his spreadsheets on overbuilding.

Thanks.

Quote
In a world where wind and solar resources make up 40 to 50 percent of generation, wholesale energy prices will drop by as much as $16 per megawatt-hour (a 25% drop in the cost of electricity), according to a study released Wednesday from a group of researchers at Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory.

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/energy-prices-if-wind-and-solar-hit-50-percent-of-generation#gs.5s6YTDk




numerobis

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2737 on: May 18, 2018, 07:19:38 PM »
Heh. I totally forgot to summarize the paper!

It shows drastic reductions in wholesale prices of power everywhere. Baseline power is economically dead (we knew that already, but it's even more dead than before in a world with 40% solar+wind).

It shows the duck curve going bonkers in ERCOT because it doesn't have enough transmission or storage to eat up morning solar and feed it back in the early evening when everyone gets home and fires up dinner and AC. It's also quite pronounced in California.

To me it shows the necessity of batteries to get much beyond there. One first step: charge up your car when you get to work. That makes the midday peak a bit shallower. Second step: charge up utility-scale batteries overnight and midday and discharge them morning and evening.

It looks to me as well that the traditional "power is cheap at night" mantra and how we should set the laundry to run in the wee hours -- that advice will soon be obsolete and we'll want to do laundry at noon.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2738 on: May 18, 2018, 07:23:07 PM »
I think the discussion is likely to undergo a drastic change once we start including offshore wind. 

etienne

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2739 on: May 19, 2018, 06:58:25 AM »
Heh. I totally forgot to summarize the paper!

It shows drastic reductions in wholesale prices of power everywhere. Baseline power is economically dead (we knew that already, but it's even more dead than before in a world with 40% solar+wind).

It shows the duck curve going bonkers in ERCOT because it doesn't have enough transmission or storage to eat up morning solar and feed it back in the early evening when everyone gets home and fires up dinner and AC. It's also quite pronounced in California.

To me it shows the necessity of batteries to get much beyond there. One first step: charge up your car when you get to work. That makes the midday peak a bit shallower. Second step: charge up utility-scale batteries overnight and midday and discharge them morning and evening.

It looks to me as well that the traditional "power is cheap at night" mantra and how we should set the laundry to run in the wee hours -- that advice will soon be obsolete and we'll want to do laundry at noon.
I agree that the baseline power will have major problem. It seems that hydro already has problems because of high maintenance costs. Maybe we have an issue that hydro had to pay for more than what it used (waterflow management...).

About the times for the duck curve, the noon peak is not an international value. There are countries where people eat the main meal at noon, and cooking takes a lot of energy. It's more during the afternoon with summer time that there is an international issue.

The other point is that winter and summer are totally different. Maybe electricity will be more expensive during the winter, and maybe this would "save" baseload.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2740 on: May 19, 2018, 07:07:46 AM »
Everyone is getting excited about the solar part of the curve.

Jack up the wind.

40% solar and wind is only a token.  Go for 80%+.  Make as much demand as possible dispatchable so it becomes a place to use daily curtailment.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2741 on: May 21, 2018, 08:14:41 PM »
Also from walking, passage of vehicles, waves, etc.

Breakthrough solar panel can harvest power from raindrops — day or night
Quote
In a truly remarkable feat of innovation, scientists have figured out how to create “hybrid” solar cells that generate power not just from sunlight but also from raindrops. This means we may soon see all-weather solar panels that work when it is cloudy and even at night, if it’s raining. ...
https://thinkprogress.org/breakthrough-solar-panel-can-harvest-power-from-raindrops-day-or-night-3a2ce74f9060/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2742 on: May 21, 2018, 08:31:09 PM »
Also from walking, passage of vehicles, waves, etc.

Breakthrough solar panel can harvest power from raindrops — day or night
Quote
In a truly remarkable feat of innovation, scientists have figured out how to create “hybrid” solar cells that generate power not just from sunlight but also from raindrops. This means we may soon see all-weather solar panels that work when it is cloudy and even at night, if it’s raining. ...
https://thinkprogress.org/breakthrough-solar-panel-can-harvest-power-from-raindrops-day-or-night-3a2ce74f9060/

Don't get too excited.  At least in places where I have lived the percentage of hours in which it rains out of the total hours of clouds blocking the Sun is very low.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2743 on: May 21, 2018, 10:04:28 PM »
Also from walking, passage of vehicles, waves, etc.

Breakthrough solar panel can harvest power from raindrops — day or night
Quote
In a truly remarkable feat of innovation, scientists have figured out how to create “hybrid” solar cells that generate power not just from sunlight but also from raindrops. This means we may soon see all-weather solar panels that work when it is cloudy and even at night, if it’s raining. ...
https://thinkprogress.org/breakthrough-solar-panel-can-harvest-power-from-raindrops-day-or-night-3a2ce74f9060/

Don't get too excited.  At least in places where I have lived the percentage of hours in which it rains out of the total hours of clouds blocking the Sun is very low.

‘Rain power’ might help smooth the local solar power generation curve in places like Florida that lose the sun during regular afternoon thunderstorms.
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Yuha

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2744 on: May 22, 2018, 12:04:42 PM »
https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2018/5/18/17359730/wind-solar-power-grid-electricity-managers

@drvox (who is somewhat skeptical of renewables)

I'm not sure why you think that David Roberts is skeptical of renewables. I think the last paragraph of that story summarize his attitude pretty well:

Quote
The renewable energy future is rapidly becoming the present. Everyone in and around the power sector needs to snap to and get ready for it.

Maybe you got that impression because many of his writings are not about praising the benefits and advances of renewables but about analyzing the obstacles and trying to find realistic ways to overcome them.

numerobis

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2745 on: May 22, 2018, 12:15:35 PM »
Roberts is a skeptic, not a denier, but actually pushing hard at whether renewables could work.

He’s generally not pushed as hard against nuclear. This shows up sometimes when he goes on about how we have to save the nuclear that exists — but doesn’t seem to realize a large fraction of it needs to be refurbished soon. Perfectly operating nuclear isn’t being retired early; rather, they’re being retired when they need substantial repairs (just like coal). Those repairs are more expensive than putting up new renewables.

numerobis

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2746 on: May 22, 2018, 06:28:08 PM »
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1364032118303307#bib73

A rebuttal of an article. The rebuttal forms a decent survey of the literature for 100% renewable energy use (and rather savages an article that claims all the other studies aren’t good enough, that we need nukes).

Basically, lots of studies are together building a consensus that 100% renewables or very nearly 100% is possible with current commercial technologies. And the price difference is small; it might even be cheaper than current pricing.

Biomass is problematic but not required. Some new technologies could help, such as air capture of carbon and producing methane from that, but aren’t required.


Bob Wallace

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2747 on: May 22, 2018, 07:39:37 PM »
Quote
Perfectly operating nuclear isn’t being retired early

But it is.  Kewaunee was the first operating and licensed reactor to be closed for purely economic reasons.  Other reactors are being closed because they cannot compete in the energy market even though they require no repairs and have years to go on their license.

Oyster Creek will close later this year because an upgrade would be required for it to stay in operation but that's the exception.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2748 on: May 23, 2018, 08:20:27 PM »
New eruptions at Hawaii volcano send lava closer to geothermal power plant
Also:  poverty and the people not evacuating
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2018/05/22/hawaii-volcano-lava-kilauea-power-plant/632294002/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2749 on: May 24, 2018, 02:55:05 PM »
GE Power division builds turbines for thermal power plants.  Of GE’s many problems, that’s among the worst.

What the Hell Happened at GE?
Few corporate meltdowns have been as swift and dramatic as General Electric’s over the past 18 months—but the problems started long before that.
http://fortune.com/longform/ge-decline-what-the-hell-happened/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.