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Tom_Mazanec

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Climate change activists should not fly
« on: April 16, 2019, 12:57:20 PM »
You have to walk the walk, not just talk the talk. When activists fly around the world but say we have to cut carbon emissions, it send the message that you have to sacrifice but I don't. Activists for civil rights were thrown in prison, attacked by police dogs, tear gassed, etc. and have mostly triumphed. Activists for climate change too often are do what I say, not what I do and have mostly failed.
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Neven

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2019, 01:20:12 PM »
Anyone who is serious about AGW, should fly as little as possible, and never for a holiday. That's just common sense. I hear more and more people talking about 'flying shame', so that's great, because taboos are a good way to change cultures.

But it's also about ROI. If going somewhere to talk about AGW, convinces people to stop flying or save energy by other means, it's worth it. There are always exceptions to the rule.
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2019, 06:45:19 PM »
Well, I am not a climate change "activist" (though I am a bit of a prolife activist). I am considering flying on a Pilgrimage to the Holy Land my Parish is sponsoring...that is item one on my "bucket list" and that is the only way I am ever going to get there.
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Neven

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2019, 08:30:52 PM »
Quote
Well, I am not a climate change "activist" (though I am a bit of a prolife activist).

Prolife activists should not masturbate.  ;D
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wili

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2019, 08:43:49 PM »
Nice one, Neven.

Saying, "Well, I am not a climate change "activist" (though I am a bit of a prolife activist)." is basically saying I'm so obsessed with controlling women's bodies that I can't really be bothered with trying to help save all complex life forms on the planet.
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2019, 10:43:57 PM »
Quote
Well, I am not a climate change "activist" (though I am a bit of a prolife activist).

Prolife activists should not masturbate.  ;D

Correct.
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2019, 10:45:34 PM »
Nice one, Neven.

Saying, "Well, I am not a climate change "activist" (though I am a bit of a prolife activist)." is basically saying I'm so obsessed with controlling women's bodies that I can't really be bothered with trying to help save all complex life forms on the planet.

So you are so obsessed with saving the furbish lousewort that you are willing to allow a million preborn babies be killed in America every year?
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wdmn

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2019, 11:41:39 PM »
The problem with this logic is that my flying or not flying will have no bearing on whether or not AGW is brought under control or not. Even if all "activists" stopped flying, air travel would continue to grow, and new airports would be built.

For some activists it may enhance their work to fly. Or it may be simply that they suffer from not being able to see friends or family as a result. How does that do any good?

The solution to AGW is not individual market choices/lifestyle choices. Though reforming your lifestyle may be commendable, it is not effective, and therefore there should definitely not be shame attached to flying if you're working hard in other ways to make the changes that might result in us making the much larger, collective changes that are required.

 

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2019, 12:13:42 AM »
Quote
Well, I am not a climate change "activist" (though I am a bit of a prolife activist).

Prolife activists should not masturbate.  ;D

Correct.

Why? What does that have to do with pro-life?
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2019, 01:52:22 AM »
Quote
Well, I am not a climate change "activist" (though I am a bit of a prolife activist).

Prolife activists should not masturbate.  ;D

Correct.

Why? What does that have to do with pro-life?

Actually, as a Catholic, I believe no one should masturbate, which is why I replied to your post that way. But that is not something for law, because an innocent life is not at stake until conception. It is also a Mortal Sin to miss Mass on Holy Days and Days of Obligation, but I am not going to pass a law on that either. But when a helpless infant in the womb is involved, then the law should protect that infant.
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anthropocene

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2019, 02:01:12 AM »
You have to walk the walk, not just talk the talk. When activists fly around the world but say we have to cut carbon emissions, it send the message that you have to sacrifice but I don't. Activists for civil rights were thrown in prison, attacked by police dogs, tear gassed, etc. and have mostly triumphed. Activists for climate change too often are do what I say, not what I do and have mostly failed.

Most probably a trolling question but I'll bite - and back on topic.

1) What gives you the right to define what is the correct behaviour of others and what is not allowed? What if a climate scientist is vegetarian, doesn't drive and uses only renewable energy at home? Are they allowed to fly then? Is the quality of their work a factor in what  CO2 emissions they're allowed to produce? Can that be applied to all workers? - I doubt that would be popular.  What about the energy consumed by running the climate models their work is likely to be based on - should all the model results be calculated with pen and paper? When started down this road where is the line drawn?

2) The statement supports the fallacy that the problem of climate change can be solved by personal choice. This is not true - the only way to make the fundamental changes required is by systemic change. It is often stated that the only way to change the established order is to be part of the establishment. By using other transport to air travel they would be setting themselves as 'other' - which automatically reduces their influence. 

3) What is the point of the question - it only makes any sense if some sort of action is taken. What would that be? Discount any science published by scientists that take flights? Sounds very Stalinist.

4) You say you're prolife? How many orphans have you fostered and/or adopted? Less than 10? - then I can discount all your views then can I ? - you're not walking the walk enough.

5) Even asking the question implies that scientists are aiming to persuade public opinion - no, they are producing science based on the scientific method. Public opinion and policies should be based on the scientific facts - scientist's job is to educate, not persuade. This is a key difference between scientists and civil rights activists.

Some advice:  You've recently joined the forum and  make posts and provocative statements randomly across the forum. It's equivalent to walking into a room full of strangers in which a long, sometimes ridiculous, sometimes enlightening discussion has been going on for years between a group of acquaintances and  immediately talking over everybody disrupting the conversation. Observe, read and slowly increase participation after gaining a grasp of the tone and rhythm of the threads - you never know you may learn something.

Viggy

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2019, 02:07:13 AM »

Actually, as a Catholic, I believe no one should masturbate, which is why I replied to your post that way. But that is not something for law, because an innocent life is not at stake until conception. It is also a Mortal Sin to miss Mass on Holy Days and Days of Obligation, but I am not going to pass a law on that either. But when a helpless infant in the womb is involved, then the law should protect that infant.

If we are terming embryos ‘infants’ and claiming that climate change activists shouldn’t fly, the world is already doomed. Each one of those ‘infants’ contributes way more to AGW than the one flight to a foreign land to prove our devotion to a made up concept that makes us feel good about death. Religions aims to placate and control the masses by telling them that if we do our best in this life, we get something better when we die. And then the people in power subvert that already subversive message to consolidate even more power by making you contribute funds to made up campaigns while sexually abusing the same helpless infants that they seem to want more of.

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2019, 02:12:34 AM »
You have to walk the walk, not just talk the talk. When activists fly around the world but say we have to cut carbon emissions, it send the message that you have to sacrifice but I don't. Activists for civil rights were thrown in prison, attacked by police dogs, tear gassed, etc. and have mostly triumphed. Activists for climate change too often are do what I say, not what I do and have mostly failed.

Most probably a trolling question but I'll bite - and back on topic.

1) What gives you the right to define what is the correct behaviour of others and what is not allowed? What if a climate scientist is vegetarian, doesn't drive and uses only renewable energy at home? Are they allowed to fly then? Is the quality of their work a factor in what  CO2 emissions they're allowed to produce? Can that be applied to all workers? - I doubt that would be popular.  What about the energy consumed by running the climate models their work is likely to be based on - should all the model results be calculated with pen and paper? When started down this road where is the line drawn?

2) The statement supports the fallacy that the problem of climate change can be solved by personal choice. This is not true - the only way to make the fundamental changes required is by systemic change. It is often stated that the only way to change the established order is to be part of the establishment. By using other transport to air travel they would be setting themselves as 'other' - which automatically reduces their influence. 

3) What is the point of the question - it only makes any sense if some sort of action is taken. What would that be? Discount any science published by scientists that take flights? Sounds very Stalinist.

4) You say you're prolife? How many orphans have you fostered and/or adopted? Less than 10? - then I can discount all your views then can I ? - you're not walking the walk enough.

5) Even asking the question implies that scientists are aiming to persuade public opinion - no, they are producing science based on the scientific method. Public opinion and policies should be based on the scientific facts - scientist's job is to educate, not persuade. This is a key difference between scientists and civil rights activists.

Some advice:  You've recently joined the forum and  make posts and provocative statements randomly across the forum. It's equivalent to walking into a room full of strangers in which a long, sometimes ridiculous, sometimes enlightening discussion has been going on for years between a group of acquaintances and  immediately talking over everybody disrupting the conversation. Observe, read and slowly increase participation after gaining a grasp of the tone and rhythm of the threads - you never know you may learn something.


The point is that people arguing for an end to global warming, like Al Gore, who fly around almost weekly on jet planes, are giving people the perfect rationalization to ignore what they are saying. Sorry if you don't see that.
I never adopted someone, but I contribute heavily to my Church and its social programs, and spent 18 years working at ~minimum wage at a group home until it closed down in 2010, so I try to help others.
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2019, 02:17:39 AM »

Actually, as a Catholic, I believe no one should masturbate, which is why I replied to your post that way. But that is not something for law, because an innocent life is not at stake until conception. It is also a Mortal Sin to miss Mass on Holy Days and Days of Obligation, but I am not going to pass a law on that either. But when a helpless infant in the womb is involved, then the law should protect that infant.

If we are terming embryos ‘infants’ and claiming that climate change activists shouldn’t fly, the world is already doomed. Each one of those ‘infants’ contributes way more to AGW than the one flight to a foreign land to prove our devotion to a made up concept that makes us feel good about death. Religions aims to placate and control the masses by telling them that if we do our best in this life, we get something better when we die. And then the people in power subvert that already subversive message to consolidate even more power by making you contribute funds to made up campaigns while sexually abusing the same helpless infants that they seem to want more of.

Even if you are an Atheist, you have to admit the embryo is human. What else would it be...an aardvark? And if you can kill a human because it is less than 9 months old, can you kill him/her because he/she is less than 6 years old? After all, such children do not think as sophisticatedly as us adults. Or should we use an IQ test where you have to score 100 or more? If that is too high, why not just 90? Or go up to 110 and just have smarter people. Where do you draw the line?
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Viggy

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2019, 02:35:20 AM »
Even if you are an Atheist, you have to admit the embryo is human. What else would it be...an aardvark? And if you can kill a human because it is less than 9 months old, can you kill him/her because he/she is less than 6 years old? After all, such children do not think as sophisticatedly as us adults. Or should we use an IQ test where you have to score 100 or more? If that is too high, why not just 90? Or go up to 110 and just have smarter people. Where do you draw the line?

Whataboutism is the lowest form of debate. Please do not aim to disguise pointless statements as valid arguments.

An embryo is not a human. An egg is not a chicken.

I also am a lifelong vegetarian. You don’t see me forcing my opinions on why eating steak is murder, though it quite literally is. Why is life you can eat not as valuable as other life? Killing a puppy is bad but killing a baby cow for veal is an industry.

This whole topic reeks of brain-washed hypocrisy.

oren

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2019, 02:52:37 AM »
People who believe taxes should be raised for the common good should add a high voluntary contribution to their annual tax return - or they are hypocrites and their voices cannot be heard. Right?

(Wrong - they campaign for a shared pain, and are willing to take the pain when it is adopted, though not before. They are not martyrs, but neither are they hypocrites)

People who campaign for a global ban or sharp reduction of flights should not fly themselves. Right?

(Wrong - they campaign for a shared pain, and are willing to take the pain when it is adopted, though not before. They are not martyrs, but neither are they hypocrites)

Viggy

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2019, 03:55:42 AM »
People who believe taxes should be raised for the common good should add a high voluntary contribution to their annual tax return - or they are hypocrites and their voices cannot be heard. Right?

(Wrong - they campaign for a shared pain, and are willing to take the pain when it is adopted, though not before. They are not martyrs, but neither are they hypocrites)

People who campaign for a global ban or sharp reduction of flights should not fly themselves. Right?

(Wrong - they campaign for a shared pain, and are willing to take the pain when it is adopted, though not before. They are not martyrs, but neither are they hypocrites)

Again, whataboutism ... people who campaign against flying shouldn’t fly, WHAT ABOUT people who campaign for higher taxes. It’s unrelated and serves only to make a weak association with an easier topic to argue.

And my whole point about hypocrisy was purely with regards to religion and pro-life activism.

But since we brought it up, people campaigning for a global ban on flying aren’t generally the people who fly the most. They aren’t sharing pain since the ban or reduction in flying affects them disproportionately less, if at all.

That’s not to saying flight is not bad for the environment but it’s a pointless topic to debate since we are asking to economically disadvantage the world that runs on an economic system. The one’s who orchestrate and run our broken economic systems will not be taking steps to hurt themselves or their own. So fly all you want to spread the message of climate change because it is absolutely urgent that we do so - and calling someone like Al Gore a hypocrite for doing so, is just a deflectionary tactic to distract from the real issues.

Eli81

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2019, 05:02:08 AM »


Even if you are an Atheist, you have to admit the embryo is human. What else would it be...an aardvark? And if you can kill a human because it is less than 9 months old, can you kill him/her because he/she is less than 6 years old? After all, such children do not think as sophisticatedly as us adults. Or should we use an IQ test where you have to score 100 or more? If that is too high, why not just 90? Or go up to 110 and just have smarter people. Where do you draw the line?

The whole point is that you don't get to tell women what to do with their bodies. Medical technology exists to safely terminate a pregnancy when it isn't wanted. This is an advance, good for society, fundamentally no different than the empowerment that came with hormone birth control.

Do prolife people really suggest we give human zygotes all the rights of a born human being - above the rights of the human responsible for its existence in the first place?

What happens when it divides into two or four cells? Do we then worship them as gods?  :o

The whole pro-life thing is just so utterly ridiculous. I agree with Viggy, we are doomed.

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2019, 05:16:31 AM »
The whole point is that a woman does not have a right to murder her baby just because it is located in her womb.
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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2019, 06:26:20 AM »
would those interested please debate abortion on some other thread ?

as far as flying goes, i think that will have to be solved with biofuels for long haul and electric for short haul, augmented by videoconferencing. In high energy physics, for example, a great many researchers are now holding meetings in videoconference rooms or more mundanely, over skype or google hangouts or the like, rather than flying to meet. The same is true of astronomy  on the big telescope and LIGO collaborations. But you still got to fly petabytes of hardrives around the world to get spectacular pictures of black holes.

As they used to say, never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon fulla magtape.

sidd

« Last Edit: April 17, 2019, 09:42:59 AM by sidd »

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2019, 08:23:00 AM »
Every single facet of modern life has fossil fuel inputs at every level. Flying is just another. Should climate change activists not live in houses made of modern materials? Should they not enter air conditioned or heated buildings? Should they not eat any food except what they have hunted and gathered or personally cultivated starting with finding the seeds near their mud huts?

Yes, flying is about the worst, and I admire those who make the commitment to avoid aviation permanently. But it is crucial to recognize how much deeper the problem runs than flying.


P.S. Should abortion be legal on Mars? If not, won't women just fly back to Earth for the procedure? What a huge waste of resources!
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Neven

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2019, 12:51:47 PM »
would those interested please debate abortion on some other thread ?

Or maybe not anywhere? I've seen enough of it already to get mighty tired.

Tom_Mazanec, keep the religious stuff reserved for Sunday Mass. This forum is AGW-focused.
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2019, 01:21:07 PM »
Yes, neven.
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2019, 08:56:43 PM »
Well, I've thought it over and maybe people would dismiss a hippy type talking on AGW. Not me, it would make me more likely to believe that he really means it and that he doesn't have an axe to grind.
I respect Ted Kaczynski for how he lived (not for, you know, the bombing shit), he showed he meant it.
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Viggy

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2019, 09:20:12 PM »
Well, I've thought it over and maybe people would dismiss a hippy type talking on AGW. Not me, it would make me more likely to believe that he really means it and that he doesn't have an axe to grind.
I respect Ted Kaczynski for how he lived (not for, you know, the bombing shit), he showed he meant it.

3 random, nonsensical statements so you can get some big, shock debate going about Ted Kaczynski ...


Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #25 on: April 18, 2019, 01:00:51 AM »
I was using him as an example.
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #26 on: April 18, 2019, 11:48:43 PM »
You know, this is all predicated on aviation being the least efficient means of transportation. But is it? I've always heard that, but that doesn't mean it is true.

Take NYC to LA
Scenario 1 Boeing 747-400 in a "medium" 524 passengers in a typical two-class layout,
Scenario 2 262 medium sized cars on the Interstate,
Scenario 3 A cruise ship with 524 passengers going through the Panama Canal, and
Scenario 4 A passenger train (I suspect this would be best. I also suspect it is impossible in the Real World)

Roughly what would be the carbon emissions of these four trips? has anyone done the math?
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SteveMDFP

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2019, 01:21:54 AM »
You know, this is all predicated on aviation being the least efficient means of transportation. But is it? I've always heard that, but that doesn't mean it is true.

Take NYC to LA
 
Scenario 4 A passenger train (I suspect this would be best. I also suspect it is impossible in the Real World)
 

How to find cheap train tickets from New York to Los Angeles?
 ...
CHEAPEST AVERAGE PRICE
$257.02

https://www.wanderu.com/en-us/train/us-ny/new-york/us-ca/los-angeles/

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2019, 02:15:34 AM »
Hmmm.  Cheap bus (one way) NYC-LA: $168
Cheap train (one way) NYC-LA: $192
(2 days 20 hours, plus or minus)
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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2019, 02:31:23 AM »
You know, this is all predicated on aviation being the least efficient means of transportation. But is it? I've always heard that, but that doesn't mean it is true.

Take NYC to LA
Scenario 1 Boeing 747-400 in a "medium" 524 passengers in a typical two-class layout,
Scenario 2 262 medium sized cars on the Interstate,
Scenario 3 A cruise ship with 524 passengers going through the Panama Canal, and
Scenario 4 A passenger train (I suspect this would be best. I also suspect it is impossible in the Real World)

Roughly what would be the carbon emissions of these four trips? has anyone done the math?

I hate to say, "As economist, I find it helpful to find data and display it visually" ... ahh, what the heck.  From the US Dept of Energy....

mabarnes

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2019, 02:33:15 AM »
The Notes:

Source: Oak Ridge National Laboratory Table 2.14 of the Transportation Energy Data Book 36B. 2018.
BTU to GGE conversion taken from Appendix A3 of the Monthly Energy Review, September 2018.

This chart shows average per-passenger fuel economy of various modes of passenger travel. All forms of rail achieve relatively high values due to high ridership and energy efficiency of rail transport. Airlines are an increasingly efficient form of transport as more passengers are fit onto planes and ticketing software fills most planes to capacity. Motorcycles achieve a high number of passenger miles per gallon, owing to very high fuel efficiency. Transit buses are not very efficient at their current ridership rates, where, on average, a given bus is less than 25% full. Demand response vehicles are the least efficient, because they need to use fuel just to get to the passenger.

Neven

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2019, 09:41:57 AM »
Years ago I read something about trains needing a lot more infrastructure than planes, but I've forgotten what the conclusion of the piece was.
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bbr2314

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #32 on: April 19, 2019, 10:16:39 AM »
Years ago I read something about trains needing a lot more infrastructure than planes, but I've forgotten what the conclusion of the piece was.
The conclusion was that everyone should live in huts and self-flagellate every day with no means of transport besides your own two legs as penance for climate change.

Neven

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #33 on: April 19, 2019, 10:23:06 AM »
No, that wasn't it.
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bbr2314

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #34 on: April 19, 2019, 09:16:17 PM »
No, that wasn't it.
Well according to this forum, that's what it should have been.  ;)

Neven

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #35 on: April 19, 2019, 09:26:01 PM »
That's not true either, but if you don't like it here, you can go find another forum. There are millions out there.
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uniquorn

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #36 on: April 20, 2019, 01:56:39 AM »
Steady on everyone. Clever people started this thread.

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #37 on: April 20, 2019, 05:26:24 AM »
EVERYONE IS MISSING THE POINT.

It is not about which mode of transportation is the most or least efficient....PEOPLE DO NOT NEED TO TRAVEL LONG DISTANCES. It is a totally frivolous activity to travel thousands of miles.

Planes are the most common mode of transportation for long distance travel. Other modes may be a little better or a little worse. What matters is that it is all unnecessary and does not actual add to quality of life. As easy of travel increases, the difference in places inherently decrease.

The only way anything changes (outside of total societal collapse [which is unfortunately very likely]) is with a proper pricing of polluting.
big time oops

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #38 on: April 20, 2019, 01:02:45 PM »
SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

anthropocene

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #39 on: April 22, 2019, 10:48:27 PM »
I was maybe over provocative on my previous post. For some it can be an infuriating subject. I've been on demos against climate change and been vilified for taking a bus to get there (it was hired and full and so just about as efficient as it could be). For some people any excuse will be taken to undermine the message.     

The discussion may be slightly at cross purposes because the discussion is covering two different ideas at the same time. On one side is persuasion - a logical argument which can change peoples minds and behaviours. It should (and does in the case of climate change) stand on its own independent of who is presenting it and what their carbon footprint is.
What Tom seemed to have in mind was influence. Not necessarily outright discussing climate change but changing views and behaviours of others purely by what they do. I can't think of a well-known global personality who influences views on climate change. Until there is a multi-national CEO or political leader who gets to the top with a minimal carbon footprint (e.g. not flying) etc. and continues that when they get there, then I don't see how else it will happen. Of course at a more local level there are influencers operating all the time on the small scale: Commuting by bike, working close to home etc. In many cases climate change may not be the main reason for the life choices they've made but they will still be exerting an influence on others around them.
In any case global personalities and the influence they do or don't bring to the climate change debate won't have much impact on the final result. Persuasion is by far the most critical lever in this battle.

And I'll leave you with another counter-example to the original statement. Sir David Attenborough, long time natural history presenter and national treasure. Most probably has a huge carbon footprint built up over the years but can't think of anybody people will have trust in and will listen to more: 


 

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DrTskoul

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #41 on: August 02, 2019, 02:09:01 AM »
The notion that a climate activist should be living off the grid, riding their eco-bikes and wait for the sun to rise to charge their corn based plastic cases phones is completely b.s. and a straw man argument.

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #42 on: August 02, 2019, 02:21:51 AM »
The best thing to do is not reproduce.

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #43 on: August 02, 2019, 02:25:57 AM »
The best thing to do is not reproduce.

True that which is why I stopped that immediately once i got aware. A pitty that i was over sixty at the time ;) ;)

8) >

EDIT: Ok to add at least something meaningful I second what Dr.T  says. We don't have to be holier than the pope.

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #44 on: August 02, 2019, 03:56:00 AM »
The best thing to do is not reproduce.
Well at least I got that covered.
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petm

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #45 on: August 02, 2019, 04:17:48 AM »
Lol me too. So, we can allow ourselves to fly. :)

Anyways I was joking. I agree with Dr. T. It's pointless to lead by example when hardly anyone is following. Far more radical action would be needed to have any chance of succeeding.

Gumbercules

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #46 on: August 02, 2019, 04:38:56 AM »
You have to walk the walk, not just talk the talk. When activists fly around the world but say we have to cut carbon emissions, it send the message that you have to sacrifice but I don't. Activists for civil rights were thrown in prison, attacked by police dogs, tear gassed, etc. and have mostly triumphed. Activists for climate change too often are do what I say, not what I do and have mostly failed.

Almost all that talk the talk are hypocrites.

Leonardo DeCaprior/Al Gore, complain about climate change, and have enormous carbon footprints compared to even the average American.

Similarly, Warren Buffet says his secretary pays a higher tax rate than he does like that is a problem. Yet nothing is stopping him from writing the US Gov a check to make up the difference. If he had an ounce of intellectual integrity he would have done so already, every year. See the thing is, the super wealthy, don't mind income tax. They LOVE income tax. They don't want a wealth tax.

Anyone that doesn't walk the walk BEFORE legislation makes them, while complaining about lack of legislation, is not someone to be trusted, respected, or given any power at all. They are morally bankrupt, and worse, sanctimonious at the same time.


Stephen

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #47 on: August 02, 2019, 05:03:00 AM »
There's pair of wild king parrots that perch on my balcony railing to eat the seed I leave out.  They often tells me to stop using fossil fuels.  I'll have to tell them to stop flying.

The males are all red heads, females are green.

But to get back on topic, peaceful protest only works when the ruling elite have a conscience.  It worked for Ghandi and Martin Luther King because the British and US have (had?) a moral compass.  It would never have worked against the Nazis because it would have just made it easier for them to round you up and send you off to the gas chambers.  There's nobody left with a moral compass in 21st century politics.  Except maybe the NZ prime minister Jacinda Ardern.

I believe that the only effective strategy is to fight fire with fire and use the techniques that have been so successfully deployed by the conservative politicians and the fossil fuel industry.   And you won't do that by avoiding a plane trip and riding your bicycle from New York to LA.

« Last Edit: August 02, 2019, 05:17:49 AM by Stephen »
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Bruce Steele

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #48 on: August 02, 2019, 05:37:28 AM »
There are lots of proponents of  electric cars, solar roofs, batteries, vegetarian diets, no fly, train transport and what is , at least as a concept, living green .
Finding anyone doing all these things and accurately documenting the embodied carbon in the infrastructure or the actual costs to get started are somehow much rarer.
If you have to fly for your job or if the place you are employed is an energy hog then the money you purchase the car, house ,solar, etc. should be reflected in embodied costs.
I think it is expensive to buy all the infrastructure , I also think many people don't think their wages or how they are earned should go into the calculations. But high paid jobs that make the infrastructure purchases possible or your stock portfolio , or your pensions come with added carbon .

As far as going back goes I think it would be amazing to do a very honest carbon accounting of low tech farming families who both work and feed themselves from their farms. If there are carbon costs in selling their produce those costs should be included. Their homes, farm equipment and some carbon accounting of their marketing / transport costs.

How would the carbon costs add up ? The old, the slow the local compared to the green lifestyles currently being marketed ?

I personally think a small farm family, heating their home with wood, not traveling to town very often,
eating meat ,drinking milk, and vegetables from the farm,  draft animals, bicycles and simple tools would beat by miles any modern green solutions being marketed.
 If you were to start with the rural life model and judiciously add modern inventions that are affordable, like heat pumps, led bulbs, maybe some limited solar and batteries I think you could live at carbon costs significantly less than trying to stuff our opulence and expectations of comfort into a green BAU suburban packages.
 Flying is just a symptom of a bigger disease.  I have the same disease as the rest of you it's just that I also try to live in two worlds. And I'm not skilled in either of them.  I am going to make my first flight in 5 years on a business /pleasure trip. Farm related but not really necessary but hopefully good for the pig breed I keep. A pig breeders meeting. My last flight was also a pig farmers meeting.

The fighting fire with fire idea better be a fight for something better and count me out if it's a fight for
the first class seats. Most battles are.
 



Rod

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Re: Climate change activists should not fly
« Reply #49 on: August 02, 2019, 05:53:09 AM »
This subject is just silly.  Climate activists would not be able to get to meetings if they could not fly.

Michael Mann discussed this exact topic today and pointed out that flying only accounts for 3% of the carbon budget. 

People have to work.  I fly a lot for my job.  People need to take vacations and often flying is the only way to do that.

If you want people to live more responsibly, it needs to make sense to them.  Saying people should never fly is a non starter and will never happen.

Developing more fuel efficient airplanes is a possibility. 

It turns people off when extremists yell and scream nonsense.  Arguing climate activists should not fly is absolute nonsense.   How else would they live their lives and get to the meetings to voice their concerns. 

I note Greta is coming to the USA by boat.  But it is going to take her a long time and she is taking a year off of school.   I don’t agree with all of her missed school even if I do agree with her message.  At some point, when she grows up and wants to be an adult activist she will need an education and she is missing out on that right now.