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Bruce Steele

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Re: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
« Reply #1150 on: June 10, 2018, 10:48:03 PM »
Welcome to the forum queenie. I agree with all of your reservations about indoor artificial lighted growing systems. In addition to the points you made I would add one more. Agriculture properly done has the potential to sink carbon in the soil . Under the best practices possible organic farming might even operate net negative carbon . The "Plenty" model doesn't have carbon farming as a goal . I tried to investigate the Plenty.ag website but it was junk.

Neven

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Re: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
« Reply #1151 on: June 10, 2018, 11:37:20 PM »
Dead food.
Il faut cultiver notre jardin

Sigmetnow

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Re: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
« Reply #1152 on: June 11, 2018, 04:42:28 PM »
Dead food.

Even ‘dead food’ is better than no food.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

gerontocrat

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Re: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
« Reply #1153 on: June 11, 2018, 04:44:49 PM »
Dead food.

Even ‘dead food’ is better than no food.

What a delightful future for us all.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"

queenie

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Re: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
« Reply #1154 on: June 11, 2018, 04:52:55 PM »
Bruce - thanks for adding that point. Those of us deep into perennial biodiversity think a lot about how to operate in a way that makes us carbon sinks.

The "Plenty" site offers little for sure but they have been getting huge amounts of venture capitol funding, literally in the hundreds of millions. https://www.agritecture.com/post/2017/12/29/vertical-farming-funding-on-the-rise-in-2017-predictions-for-2022][url]https://www.agritecture.com/post/2017/12/29/vertical-farming-funding-on-the-rise-in-2017-predictions-for-2022[/url]
It kills me that they and the various container farm companies are being successfully promoted as green alternatives to conventional agriculture when they may, in many ways, be even worse. I saw an article where a university sustainability program bought a container farm and another where a food bank bought several.
I've been impatiently waiting for some of the food and environmental press to wake up and critique these but sadly there has been nothing fawning over the "hyperlocal" concept of growing food in a trailer behind the restaurant.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
« Reply #1155 on: June 11, 2018, 04:55:56 PM »
Dead food.

Even ‘dead food’ is better than no food.

What a delightful future for us all.

In the future, there will be less traditionally-grown food, due to climate change, carbon concerns, limited harvests, and less use of global transportation.  There will be a preponderance of ‘artificial food’, which will be tasty, nutritious, appealing, more abundant — and more readily produced near populations living in areas which can no longer grow or gather their own.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

jacksmith4tx

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Re: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
« Reply #1156 on: June 11, 2018, 07:28:50 PM »
"When there’s not enough oxygen in the water, life can’t persist."
https://theoutline.com/post/4910/ocean-oxygen-levels-are-dropping-and-taking-marine-life-with-them

There are other stories about how our lakes and rivers are experiencing similar problems.
I wonder if these expanding dead zones have any relationship to jellyfish blooms? A large jellyfish bloom can decimate plankton populations and other small marine animals.
Science is a thought process, technology will change reality.

jmshelton

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Re: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
« Reply #1157 on: June 11, 2018, 07:57:01 PM »
I believe it's the other way around - jellyfish blooms are an indication of poor conditions.  Some of the write-ups I've read hypothesize that if the oceans get acidic enough, jellyfish blooms will be very common.

jacksmith4tx

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Re: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
« Reply #1158 on: June 11, 2018, 08:16:42 PM »
I believe it's the other way around - jellyfish blooms are an indication of poor conditions.  Some of the write-ups I've read hypothesize that if the oceans get acidic enough, jellyfish blooms will be very common.
I suppose 'poor conditions' is somewhat relative. I checked a few sources and jellyfish are carnivorous feeding on plankton, crustaceans, fish eggs, small fish and other jellyfish. Ironically, jellyfish are classified as plankton.
Science is a thought process, technology will change reality.

miki

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Re: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
« Reply #1159 on: June 11, 2018, 08:18:20 PM »
"When there’s not enough oxygen in the water, life can’t persist."
https://theoutline.com/post/4910/ocean-oxygen-levels-are-dropping-and-taking-marine-life-with-them

There are other stories about how our lakes and rivers are experiencing similar problems.
I wonder if these expanding dead zones have any relationship to jellyfish blooms? A large jellyfish bloom can decimate plankton populations and other small marine animals.

In this video lecture by Dr. Jeremy Jackson, it is explained quite well.
Brave New Ocean - Lecture by Dr. Jeremy Jackson, UCLA


Neven

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Re: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
« Reply #1160 on: June 12, 2018, 10:00:02 AM »
Even ‘dead food’ is better than no food.

I'm not so sure, Sig. I think that soulless food produces soulless humans. Plants reflect soil health, which indirectly influences the health of our bowels (intestinal flora), which directly influences our general health. And remember, mens sana in corpore sano.

You cannot imitate soil health with some substrate and a handful ingredients. There will be something missing, and without that something, nothing good can ever come of anything. And if nothing good can come of it, why would it be better?

Man does not live on bread alone.
Il faut cultiver notre jardin

Sleepy

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Re: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
« Reply #1161 on: June 12, 2018, 11:26:44 AM »
Haven't y'all heard?



Better pick up on Neven's latin phrase above and go for my daily exercise...
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.

dnem

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Re: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
« Reply #1162 on: June 12, 2018, 12:49:54 PM »
I am a very strong believer in the "hygiene hypothesis" which is the idea that a lack of exposure to a wide range of healthily microbes coupled with a high exposure to a variety of antibiotics and other "microbiocides" leads to an abnormal and depauperate internal microbiome and overall poorer health. Or put another way, Eat dirt people!  A poor and out of whack microbiome is hypothesized to have a least some role in many, many, many "modern" ailments including rising mental health issues, autoimmune disorders, allergies, heart disease and on and on.

While indoor, sterile, high density, high tech food production might have a role in meeting future food demand, there is no possible way it can be as healthy as eating real food grown in healthy soil that itself supports a healthy microbiome.  That's how we co-evolved with the bacteria inside us that outnumber our own cells.

Daniel B.

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Re: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
« Reply #1163 on: June 12, 2018, 02:16:15 PM »
I am a very strong believer in the "hygiene hypothesis" which is the idea that a lack of exposure to a wide range of healthily microbes coupled with a high exposure to a variety of antibiotics and other "microbiocides" leads to an abnormal and depauperate internal microbiome and overall poorer health. Or put another way, Eat dirt people!  A poor and out of whack microbiome is hypothesized to have a least some role in many, many, many "modern" ailments including rising mental health issues, autoimmune disorders, allergies, heart disease and on and on.

While indoor, sterile, high density, high tech food production might have a role in meeting future food demand, there is no possible way it can be as healthy as eating real food grown in healthy soil that itself supports a healthy microbiome.  That's how we co-evolved with the bacteria inside us that outnumber our own cells.

Agreed.  This is the main reason that many Westerners get sick when they travel to poorer countries.  They have become accustomed to the cleaner environments, and their bodies are unprepared for the bacteria that they encounter elsewhere.

Shared Humanity

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Re: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
« Reply #1164 on: June 12, 2018, 03:56:48 PM »
Some of our top research hospitals are using fecal transplantation to restore gut health.

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/gastroenterology_hepatology/clinical_services/advanced_endoscopy/fecal_transplantation.html

dnem

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Re: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
« Reply #1165 on: June 12, 2018, 06:20:01 PM »
Hey Daniel, we agree!  ;)

Sigmetnow

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Re: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
« Reply #1166 on: June 12, 2018, 08:54:49 PM »
Even ‘dead food’ is better than no food.

I'm not so sure, Sig. I think that soulless food produces soulless humans. Plants reflect soil health, which indirectly influences the health of our bowels (intestinal flora), which directly influences our general health. And remember, mens sana in corpore sano.

You cannot imitate soil health with some substrate and a handful ingredients. There will be something missing, and without that something, nothing good can ever come of anything. And if nothing good can come of it, why would it be better?

Man does not live on bread alone.

“Natural” food is already becoming “junk” food, due to climate change.  Doesn’t that make it rather soulless, as well?
http://www.dw.com/en/climate-change-strips-nutrients-from-food-crops/a-44161873

We will need to supplement “natural” food with nutrients to have a complete diet.  It’s not a big step from there to “artificial food,” however you wish to define it.  No reason microbes can’t be added to food — like is done with yogurt.  But as fertile land becomes more scarce, feeding a population means alternative food is certainly better than starving!  We will improve food technology — and eliminate “natural” food dangers such as salmonella and brucellosis.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
« Reply #1167 on: June 12, 2018, 09:39:42 PM »
DryCard Invention Wins Competition to Reduce Food Loss in Africa
Quote
A new, low-cost invention from the University of California, Davis, to help prevent food spoilage has been named as the top emerging technology for reducing food loss and waste across the African continent.

The tool, called the DryCard, shows farmers whether their dried food products are dry enough to store safely, reducing food losses and risks of mold and associated toxins. ...
https://www.ucdavis.edu/news/uc-davis-drycard-invention-wins-competition-reduce-food-loss-africa/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

queenie

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Re: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
« Reply #1168 on: June 12, 2018, 10:14:28 PM »
It's been my experience, as a farmer mind you not a climate scientist, that land becomes infertile mostly because of how it's farmed. Most of my organic farmer friends have land that is becoming more fertile overtime as they implement restorative farming practices. 
 
Obviously climate change is altering our weather in ways that will require changes in our practices and I'm in a part of the world where those alterations are unlikely to make farming impossible. There are, none the less, a group of farmers engaged in dry farm trials here - in preparation for more limited irrigation water.

The declining levels of nutrients in food often has to do with the process of selection and breeding as well as farming techniques. Many older varieties, and some newer ones bred for better nutrition, have much higher levels of nutrients than those available in your average grocery store. Farmers like me are growing, selecting and then propagating fruit and vegetable varieties that are both more resilient to climate instability and more nutritious. In contrast to generations of ag research that bred for productivity, storage and transport without even noticing that nutrition had diminished.

Some of the most exciting research related to nutrient levels in vegetables and fruits is finding that stressful environments with insect pests, periods of drought and fungal attacks produce food with markedly higher nutrients than those farms awash in abundant chemical fertilizers and irrigation. Ted Radovich in Hawaii has done some interesting research in this.

Apples, a specialty of mine, have markedly more nutrition in areas of the fruit with scab on the surface. Truly, our most nutritious apples are in the cider bin.

I do think it's a dangerous idea that we can kill the planet and still feed ourselves and dangerous to let those leading the earths destruction spread that idea. I'd certainly rather have science and technology help us restore our ecosystems than prepare us to live in some blade runner post apocalyptic nightmare. I also concur with Neven that we can't mimic soil. Soil scientists will tell you that there are billions of microbes in a handful of soil and we understand maybe 10% of them. There is an entire other world under our feet and we are only beginning to explore it.

Sleepy

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Re: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
« Reply #1169 on: June 13, 2018, 06:30:57 AM »
Nice comment queenie.

Here's an earlier that passed with little notice in this thread:
The great nutrient collapse

The atmosphere is literally changing the food we eat, for the worse. And almost nobody is paying attention.
Adding the link to the study from 2014 and Fig1.
https://doi.org/10.7554/eLife.02245.004
The effect of CO2 on individual chemical elements in plants.
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.

queenie

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Re: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
« Reply #1170 on: June 13, 2018, 07:09:13 AM »
Thanks Sleepy, this is fascinating. It appears we need the research of those increasing nutrients by use of drought or other plant stress more than ever.
There are often huge differences in the nutrient profiles of different varieties within the same fruit or vegetable. Often the closer we get to the wild origin of a food the more nutritious. As we've bred foods for commercial agriculture we've tended to breed out some of the nutrients. Now we've altered the planet in a way that diminishes them further.
Time to breed them back to their wild roots. It's a good thing we have some delicious apples in the crab species and those Matt's Wild Cherry tomatoes are amazing.
 

Sleepy

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Re: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
« Reply #1171 on: June 13, 2018, 07:53:37 AM »
Yes it is, agriculture in general is probably the most important area for research we've got. Although I'm not a farmer (former network engineer without green fingers...), your comments makes great sense to me. When I was young I lived and worked on a farm for a couple of years so I'm not totally lost here, I'm also fortunate that my old lady has all of those skills that I lack. :)
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.

El Cid

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Re: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
« Reply #1172 on: June 13, 2018, 01:30:51 PM »
It's been my experience, as a farmer mind you not a climate scientist, that land becomes infertile mostly because of how it's farmed. Most of my organic farmer friends have land that is becoming more fertile overtime as they implement restorative farming practices. 
 


Indeed. Regenerative agriculturalists (see Gabe Brown, Ray Archuleta videos on youtube) seem to be able to increase organic matte in their soil by 0,1-0,3% /yr. That is a lot, it could be 1-5 tons of carbon per hectare. As there are cca 1 billion hectares of cropland globally, it means that we could potentially sequester 1-5 Gt Carbon per year. That is a lot, considering annual emissions of cca 10 Gt C. Plus we could use pastures and forests better. There is HUGE potential in this

Daniel B.

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Re: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
« Reply #1173 on: June 13, 2018, 01:39:22 PM »
Yes, the concentration of nutrients has decreased, but the yield has increased.  A larger fruit or vegetable tends to have a smaller concentration of nutrients, but does that mean that the food as a whole as less nutrients?  It is the total nutrients that is important, not the concentration.  A larger fruit with less concentration may have more total nutrients than a smaller one with a higher concentration.  The decrease is on the order of 5-10%., so the food may be more nutritious.

gerontocrat

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Re: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
« Reply #1174 on: June 13, 2018, 03:02:26 PM »
Industrial Agriculture means replacing natural systems for soil integrity and pest control with chemicals

https://ourworldindata.org/fertilizer-and-pesticides

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queenie

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Re: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
« Reply #1175 on: June 13, 2018, 06:36:08 PM »


Indeed. Regenerative agriculturalists (see Gabe Brown, Ray Archuleta videos on youtube) seem to be able to increase organic matte in their soil by 0,1-0,3% /yr. That is a lot, it could be 1-5 tons of carbon per hectare. As there are cca 1 billion hectares of cropland globally, it means that we could potentially sequester 1-5 Gt Carbon per year. That is a lot, considering annual emissions of cca 10 Gt C. Plus we could use pastures and forests better. There is HUGE potential in this
[/quote]

I couldn't agree more. I think every day about how we accomplish this on our farm and it's an ongoing challenge. This is an area where public support could really make a difference. Many things we do cost money, obviously, or are really inefficient, and we compete against industrial ag on price. We've had to be very creative about direct marketing to get by.

Prior to becoming a farmer I worked in an area where I built relationships with many larger conventional farmers. I suspect that lots more of them than we might think are open to making dramatic changes to how they farm if that's what it takes to change the course of climate change. Many of them are even aware of this and making the changes they can. To really go for it they'd just have to be able to do it without going bankrupt in the short term. Many things in our system work against transitioning to regenerative farming but I've seen farms do it successfully and that gives me a little hope to hang on to.

Shared Humanity

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Re: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
« Reply #1176 on: June 13, 2018, 06:46:35 PM »
We need to use nitrogen based fertilizers because we've destroyed the microbial process in the soil that would normally do this by applying pesticides and herbicides.

https://www.ipni.net/ipniweb/pnt.nsf/5a4b8be72a35cd46852568d9001a18da/fe44a1a01b8e627606257a69007205ce!OpenDocument

Meanwhile, these fertilizers and pesticides are made from fossil fuels.

No good will come from this.

Bruce Steele

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Re: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
« Reply #1177 on: June 13, 2018, 09:23:07 PM »
Using compost to build soil health isn't anything new. Land that has been conventionally farmed will respond quickly to cover cropping and added compost. Worms return and after a few seasons the ground will get softer and retain water better . Farming takes time and effort. Moving tons and tons  of compost has it's own carbon footprint in trucking , or chipping, loaders, and spreaders. The trick is to produce tonnage of organic material close to where it can be used . Utilizing the waste steam of urban yard waste is better than putting yard waste into the landfill but it comes with a big carbon footprint attached.
 So ideally a farm could grow and coppice some trees and chip them with a biodiesel tractor fueled by biodiesel also produced with farm grown vegetable oil and animal fat. Chickens could be raised on the farm and their manure used to compost the wood chips. The resulting compost is used in increasing the carbon content of the land you use to produce fruit and vegetables for humans as well as forage and grains for farm animals.
 I am getting close to the above ideal farm. I rented a chipper for some brush clearing I had to do for fire abatement so that wasn't ideal . I also have many more farm animals than I can feed with farm grown forage and grains but that is because I also need to pay bills. If I only had to feed my wife and I and a much smaller number of farm animals I think I could get to that ideal farm where I didn't use fossil fuel and I increased my farms soil carbon.
 Getting to that ideal farm while at the same time earning a living is truly the brass ring. I don't know that farm or that farmer. Amish I would imagine are farming that farm ... Somewhere.
 
 

Martin Gisser

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Re: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
« Reply #1178 on: June 13, 2018, 11:25:53 PM »
We need to use nitrogen based fertilizers because we've destroyed the microbial process in the soil that would normally do this by applying pesticides and herbicides.
A vicious circle. Artificial nitrogen fertilizer combined with common bad practise (crop residue removal, plowing, monocropping) also destroys soil organic matter/life. And less of this means less plant health, thus more pesticides, ...

Most corn fields here in Barvaria are practically sterile desert soil. Stuck in this vicious circle. And then they cut away the last hedge rows to get a bit more profit... and then are shocked, shocked about a mud tsunami roaring through town. (Been there. Got my photos somewhere else.)

Here's a satellite image of England after the big rain 2014: Mud washed into the sea:

From Monboit's article "How we ended up paying farmers to flood our homes"
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/17/farmers-uk-flood-maize-soil-protection

Apocalyptic stupidity...
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 11:30:56 PM by Martin Gisser »
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oren

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Re: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
« Reply #1179 on: June 15, 2018, 01:36:58 PM »
So ideally a farm could grow and coppice some trees and chip them with a biodiesel tractor fueled by biodiesel also produced with farm grown vegetable oil and animal fat.
Is anybody developing a battery-electric tractor? Is it even technically possible? I would hope so. And then it can be charged using locally-produced wind and solar power.

cmcgugan

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Re: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
« Reply #1180 on: June 15, 2018, 02:33:42 PM »
Looks like tractors will probably go the hybrid route first before going fully electric https://www.country-guide.ca/2018/02/14/are-electric-drive-tractors-ready-to-move-past-the-concept-stage/52584/. The hybrid could be partially run on biodiesel for sustainability.

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Re: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
« Reply #1181 on: June 15, 2018, 02:49:24 PM »
So ideally a farm could grow and coppice some trees and chip them with a biodiesel tractor fueled by biodiesel also produced with farm grown vegetable oil and animal fat.
Is anybody developing a battery-electric tractor? Is it even technically possible? I would hope so. And then it can be charged using locally-produced wind and solar power.
Forget biodiesel. Good old wood gas is the thing. Could e.g. also be fuelled from pelletized grass (C4 plants). And can produce biochar to safely sequester liquid manure and boost soil fertility and sequester carbon. (No biochar, no 21st century tech!)

Add battery to make it hybrid - plus, electrify, improve and miniaturise the gasifier for pellets. (Wood pellets are compactified wood - need far less space and are easier to handle in large quantity and produce the best biochar for soil.)

Nice job for a serious engineer. Do serious engineers still exist?

Start here:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_gas
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 02:59:30 PM by Martin Gisser »
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ghoti

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Re: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
« Reply #1182 on: June 15, 2018, 03:14:36 PM »


Is anybody developing a battery-electric tractor? Is it even technically possible? I would hope so. And then it can be charged using locally-produced wind and solar power.

Yes tractor manufacturers are looking at electric.

https://electrek.co/2016/12/05/john-deere-electric-tractor-prototype/

Sigmetnow

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Re: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
« Reply #1183 on: June 15, 2018, 08:59:44 PM »
McDonald's is scrapping plastic straws in the UK and Ireland, one of its biggest markets — and the US could be next
http://www.businessinsider.com/mcdonalds-scrapping-plastic-straws-in-the-uk-and-us-could-be-next-2018-6

Paper straws coming in September.
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El Cid

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Re: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
« Reply #1184 on: June 16, 2018, 07:41:33 AM »


Paper straws coming in September.

Its quite obvious that plastic must go in most cases and paper or other cellulose-based stuff - both of which can be composted - must replace it. Its quite amazing that plastic is still "legal" when you can substitute it in most cases with compostable stuff. For home composting spring to autumn is mostly about "greens" and there are not enough "browns" (ie. high carbon ratio materials). If most of the packaging was paper/cellulose based this would even help spring/summer composting to become faster and easier!

Sleepy

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Re: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
« Reply #1185 on: June 16, 2018, 08:20:40 AM »
McDonald's recently made a big shift in their commercials here. Suddenly they are Sweden's largest flexitarian burger chain and large enough to make a difference.  ::)



The end is actually somewhat true, I have visited McDonald's in the past, but not since that orange haired buffoon won the election in the greatest democrazy in the World.
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
« Reply #1186 on: June 16, 2018, 09:18:55 PM »
Lab-Grown Meat Startups Backed by Bill Gates, Tyson Foods Face FDA Oversight
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Lab-grown meat startups that rely on animal cells to produce beef, poultry and seafood products have caught the eye of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration, which has begun the process of regulating the industry.

Cultured meat, considered an environmentally sound alternative to the real thing, is made by harvesting cells from animals and growing them to make food. Companies like Memphis Meats Inc. and Future Meat Technologies have piqued the interest of investors such as food giants Tyson Foods Inc. and Cargill Inc., as well as billionaires Bill Gates and Richard Branson.

The FDA plans to hold a meeting July 12 to get input from the industry on the safety of the technology as well as considerations for how to possibly label the products so consumers know they’re getting meat from a lab -- not a cow. There had been some debate over whether the FDA or the U.S. Department of Agriculture should regulate lab-grown meat. ...
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/lab-grown-meat-startups-backed-141525192.html
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Neven

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Re: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
« Reply #1187 on: June 17, 2018, 12:55:51 AM »
Comment by new member that I had to approve first:

Looks like tractors will probably go the hybrid route first before going fully electric https://www.country-guide.ca/2018/02/14/are-electric-drive-tractors-ready-to-move-past-the-concept-stage/52584/. The hybrid could be partially run on biodiesel for sustainability.
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sidd

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Re: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
« Reply #1188 on: June 17, 2018, 01:40:21 AM »
Re: hybrid tractors running on biodiesel

Heehee. One of my neighbours has an abortion he has been running for almost a decade now. Old Case to which he welded a beefy alternator and a battery box and a electric motor and an inverter.  Runs all his hydraulic off electric, and has 240 AC when he wants or 12 V DC.  Not for traction tho.

Biodiesel ? He don't need no steenking biodiesel. He pours straight vegetable oil in to his other tank (did i mention he welded another fuel tank on ...) Starts and stops on diesel tho.

The thing won't win any prizes for looks, but it is a donkey. He's running it from sunup to sundown right now.

sidd

queenie

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Re: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
« Reply #1189 on: June 18, 2018, 10:35:02 PM »
The ag program at the university near us has two small battery powered tractors. They replaced the internal combustion engines in them with batteries. They work fine and actually have more horse power that way.

This got me wondering who did the work on those? How hard was it? How much did it cost? I've got a broken down old tractor that needs a couple thousand dollar repair. Now I'm thinking maybe we don't "repair" that combustion engine. Maybe we put in some batteries. Hmmmm.

https://www.farmshow.com/a_article.php?submit_search=1&keywords1=electric%20tractor&aid=33769&aid_next=33712&page_num=1&nav_previous=&nav_next=1][url]https://www.farmshow.com/a_article.php?submit_search=1&keywords1=electric%20tractor&aid=33769&aid_next=33712&page_num=1&nav_previous=&nav_next=1[/url]

sidd

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Re: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
« Reply #1190 on: June 18, 2018, 10:42:54 PM »
That Massey is a nice little tractor. Wonder why he went with 6V batteries instead of 12V. And what horsepower he gets from the rig. The original gas engine was about 30hp i think.

sidd

Sigmetnow

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Re: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
« Reply #1191 on: June 22, 2018, 12:09:47 AM »
Investors Demand Nestle, Pepsi and Others Cut Plastic Use
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A group of 25 investors managing more than $1 trillion in assets are demanding that Nestle SA, PepsiCo Inc., Procter & Gamble Co. and Unilever NV reduce their use of plastic packaging, calling it environmentally damaging.
...
“Without fundamental redesign and innovation, about 30 percent of plastic packaging will never be reused or recycled,” the investors said in their letter. “These materials can persist in the environment, partially degraded, for hundreds of years, which, as well as causing damage to marine life, could also have a material impact by exposing companies to reputational damage.”

The group is asking the companies to disclose annual plastic packaging use, set plastic use reduction goals, facilitate recycling and transition to recyclable, reusable or compostable packaging as much as possible.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-21/investors-demand-nestle-pepsi-and-others-cut-plastic-packaging


How much oil is used to make plastics?

The EIA says they can’t determine a number, because so many different petroleum products are used:
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=34&t=6

Umbra found this (from 2007):
“The best estimate I could find says that about 4 percent of the world’s annual oil production of some 84.5 million barrels per day is used as feedstock for plastic, and another 4 percent or so provides the energy to transform the feedstock into handy plastic.”
https://grist.org/article/plastics/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
« Reply #1192 on: June 23, 2018, 04:24:26 PM »
China Just Handed the World a 111-Million-Ton Trash Problem
The world’s biggest waste importer is no longer buying. So where’s all that trash going to go?
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Few people consider used plastic to be a valuable global commodity. Yet China has imported 106 million tons of old bags, bottles, wrappers and containers worth $57.6 billion since 1992, the first year it disclosed data. So when the country announced last year that it finally had enough of everybody else's junk, governments the world over knew they had a problem. They just didn’t know exactly how large it was.

Now they know. By 2030, an estimated 111 million metric tons of used plastic will need to be buried or recycled somewhere else—or not manufactured at all. That's the conclusion of a new analysis of UN global trade data by University of Georgia researchers.

Everyone's bottles, bags and food packages add up. Factories have churned out a cumulative 8.3 billion metric tons of new plastic as of 2017, the same Georgia team reported last year. Even 1 million metric tons, the scale that this material trafficks in every year, is hard to visualize in the abstract. It's 621,000 Tesla Model 3s. It's 39 million bushels of corn kernels. The world’s 700 million iPhones make up roughly a tenth of a million metric tons. ...
https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2018-06-20/china-just-handed-the-world-a-111-million-ton-trash-problem?__twitter_impression=true
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Shared Humanity

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Re: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
« Reply #1193 on: June 23, 2018, 04:59:51 PM »
No worry. The Pacific Ocean is huge and can easily store more of that waste plastic.