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Adam Ash

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1050 on: August 21, 2016, 06:23:56 AM »
Further to your earlier shots, Obouy#14 at 20160821 0331.  Calm as a mill pond, but what ever the buoy is sitting on is likely to become mush very soon.  Pity the buoy does not report vertical motion - be interesting to see what the swell height is there.

And do check out the movie from about 15 August onward.  The thaw and subsequent departure of the buoy's friends in various directions (including, it would seem, downwards!!!)  is fascinating!
http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy14/movie
« Last Edit: August 21, 2016, 06:34:29 AM by Adam Ash »

epiphyte

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1051 on: August 21, 2016, 08:14:42 AM »
Further to your earlier shots, Obouy#14 at 20160821 0331.  Calm as a mill pond, but what ever the buoy is sitting on is likely to become mush very soon.  Pity the buoy does not report vertical motion - be interesting to see what the swell height is there.

And do check out the movie from about 15 August onward.  The thaw and subsequent departure of the buoy's friends in various directions (including, it would seem, downwards!!!)  is fascinating!
http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy14/movie

Several chunks of ice look to have straight edges from clean breaks across the breadth of a larger precursor. At a guess that would imply significant wave height, for a time at least?

woodstea

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1052 on: August 22, 2016, 11:04:41 PM »
Temps at O-Buoy 14 have been a little lower the last day or so, seeing some refreezing (and/or snow?) now. Movement eastward has also stalled as winds have shifted.

Andreas T

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1053 on: August 22, 2016, 11:07:35 PM »
...., but what ever the buoy is sitting on is likely to become mush very soon.  Pity the buoy does not report vertical motion - be interesting to see what the swell height is there.

And do check out the movie from about 15 August onward.  The thaw and subsequent departure of the buoy's friends in various directions (including, it would seem, downwards!!!)  is fascinating!
...
It is very likely that the buoy is now floating instead of sitting on ice. WfC spotted that Azimuth is providing a strong indication for that. Wind direction as seen by the buoy  is remarkably fixed the best explanation is that its solar panels act as sail and keep it in a fixed direction to the wind because it is now free to swing round quicker than an ice floe would.
The other buoys too are built to float and it is very unlikely that they have sunk, how does it seem to disappear downward?

As woodstea says, now it is looking very frosty at Obuoy14, but of course as before the break up, bottom melt is likely to continue.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2016, 12:18:25 AM by Andreas T »

woodstea

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1054 on: August 22, 2016, 11:39:03 PM »
I like your hypothesis about solar panels orienting the buoy in a certain direction with respect to the wind, though it might at times be buffeted into rotating by contact with ice or the odd wave or wind gust.

I notice that the uncorrected wind direction spends a lot of time near 40 degrees. I assume uncorrected means that the azimuth must be added to it to get the true wind direction. It follows from your hypothesis that the uncorrected wind direction should stay at a fairly constant angle.

Iceismylife

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1055 on: August 22, 2016, 11:48:43 PM »
A lot of that ice looks to think to walk on.  Fresh or almost gone?

Andreas T

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1056 on: August 23, 2016, 12:27:43 AM »
we are thinking along the same lines, woodstea, this image of an Obuoy during deployment  (forgot where it comes from) gave me the idea.

oren

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1057 on: August 23, 2016, 11:59:03 AM »
Just watched the movie of the last couple of months. Extremely instructive.

marcel_g

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1058 on: August 23, 2016, 02:29:09 PM »
A lot of that ice looks to think to walk on.  Fresh or almost gone?

IMHO, Looks like fresh ice that got broken up, and then froze back together, and while it was still wet from waves some snow fell on it, which is where the darker gray snow is. The older existing floes have white snow on them because their surfaces would have been below freezing already.

Andreas T

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1059 on: August 24, 2016, 08:44:34 AM »
A lot of that ice looks to think to walk on.  Fresh or almost gone?
I have seen no sign of substantial freezing. Practically all the ice seen in the images is from last winter and spring. Some of the deformed ice which doesn't have a flat surface and is thicker will be older multiyear ice. All of it has thinned over the summer, in some places more than in others depending on how much light entered through the surface.
In the image posted by woodstea there is also ice which has been broken up into small pieces and pushed together. This covers the water surface and could have frozen together when the surface gets cold enough but trying to walk on it is probably not a good idea.
More recently there have been small patches of open water as the ice drifts about which shows that there was little if any freezing together, air temperatures are not changing much but are below zero. Salt water is still melting the ice but not quickly.
The image  of the 22nd shows I think some snow whitening the surface, more where the surface is higher and dry less where it is lower and soaked in sea water.

woodstea

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1060 on: August 24, 2016, 09:54:24 PM »
GFS 12z shows above-freezing temperatures in the O-Buoy 14 area for the next few days, and calmer winds as a high moves north over the area. It'll be interesting to see whether there's noticeable melt around the buoy. Some of these photos look like paintings to me.

Andreas T

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1061 on: August 24, 2016, 10:35:47 PM »
both of the larger floes in the photo are showing the undercutting of the ice edge by seawater which indicates that water is warm enough to melt the ice. What is reducing ice volume now is mainly bottom melt, warmer air temperatures (weather model temperatures are regularly above those measured by the buoy) assist this by not cooling the surface.

woodstea

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1062 on: August 25, 2016, 03:07:56 PM »
Top melt or bottom melt, the view is quite different this morning.

Buddy

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1063 on: August 25, 2016, 03:20:27 PM »
Quote
Top melt or bottom melt, the view is quite different this morning.

WOW.  On two levels:  (1) Wow...great picture....gorgeous, and (2)  Wow...where the hell did all the ice go?

FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Random_Weather

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1064 on: August 25, 2016, 03:31:49 PM »
Some melt some transport, if i watch, its little under freeze points, would mean, there is no thin Layer of fresh-Water, just good mixed Sea-Surface with higher Sanility so the melt happens therfore below  freeze point

ghoti

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1065 on: August 25, 2016, 04:31:17 PM »
The buoy is just facing a different direction. It seems the buoy is right on the edge of the ice so the apparent coverage depends on the direction faced.

Bruce Steele

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1066 on: August 25, 2016, 05:58:16 PM »
We have some new data to peruse on the ITP WHOI data site. It is a microcat and isn't in a format I am very familiar with. Today is the first day it has sent data . The Microcat was deployed at the mouth of Glacier 79 in Greenland . There are four different depths microcat 1 , microcat 2, microcat 3 , and microcat 4. The depths are in d-bar and I am to busy to convert those into meters so maybe someone can better report on this data but all depths are in very saline waters with all temperatures above freezing. Unlike most ITP buoys this microcat appears to be floating.

   http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=154416

RoxTheGeologist

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magnamentis

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1068 on: August 25, 2016, 08:17:03 PM »
Quote
Top melt or bottom melt, the view is quite different this morning.

WOW.  On two levels:  (1) Wow...great picture....gorgeous, and (2)  Wow...where the hell did all the ice go?

"poof" of course, for the umpteenth time this year LOL, great pic indeed, +1

Andreas T

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1069 on: August 26, 2016, 09:04:35 AM »
yesterdays worldview gives a glimpse of the vicinity of Obuoy14 which puts the images from the buoy camera into context.
Since the departure of ITP89 I am back to reading lat/lon out of the graph so roughly 130W 75.75N. switching from terra to aqua helps to identify ice (which does not move much between satellite overflights)
Just as the buoy camera with its limited view of the drifting ice shows, the disintegrating thinner ice is melting away so that only the more substantial chucks of deformed, ridged ice are surviving.
In the satellite image patches of ice are becoming more sparse in the mostly open water while to the east and north floes of a size which is visible from space are still found.
Further away the lines in the compact ice cover show compression and shear. (zoom out at http://go.nasa.gov/2bRX7wF)

Bruce Steele

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1070 on: August 26, 2016, 12:12:36 PM »
Rox, Thanks for the dbar to depth info. dbar = meters. The info at the bottom of the ITM5 page says  the microcat array was deployed on 1.35m thick ice floe at the mouth of the 79 North Glacier in Greenland. So i was mistaken about this array floating. The deepest microcat is in 503.27 meters of water so I assume this is a fiord?  The fiord runs north south.  Maybe someone could name the larger East West aligned Glacier that 79 north flows out of.
 Water temperature at 503 meters is 1.15 C and salinity is 34.75 so this water must undercut the glacier.

Also salinity at ITP 93 has increased to 33.34 today at the surface. Also temperature is shoaling with
-1.2 C water at about 75 meters.

Andreas T

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1071 on: August 26, 2016, 11:20:48 PM »
A very pretty picture from Obuoy14, no ice in view. I expect Jim will tell us more about those waves in low wind but I guess it shows the absence of the dampening effect of ice even further upwind. Temperatures have been very steady for the last two days without changes marking the 24h cycle of the sun angle, another effect of an ice free ocean surface. Over the preceding six days that cycle can still be seen.

Andreas T

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1072 on: August 27, 2016, 12:03:36 AM »
We have some new data to peruse on the ITP WHOI data site. It is a microcat and isn't in a format I am very familiar with. Today is the first day it has sent data . The Microcat was deployed at the mouth of Glacier 79 in Greenland . There are four different depths microcat 1 , microcat 2, microcat 3 , and microcat 4. The depths are in d-bar and I am to busy to convert those into meters so maybe someone can better report on this data but all depths are in very saline waters with all temperatures above freezing. Unlike most ITP buoys this microcat appears to be floating.

   http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=154416
I suspect these were deployed by Polarstern which is in the area
this is from their weekly report from the 21st https://www.awi.de/nc/en/about-us/service/press/press-release/unterwegs-im-norske-trog.html (in English)

    In addition, we were able to recover all of the seven moorings deployed on the mid-shelf in 2014. They had been equipped with sensors in order to measure the circulation of Atlantic water in the trough. In turn, an array of four moorings was subsequently deployed with a similar sensor arrangement, which shall be recovered during a R/V Polarstern expedition next summer. We further resumed the helicopter-based operations for the recovery and redeployment of several geodetic and one seismological station on the mainland of Greenland. Fortunately the weather conditions allowed us to conduct at least two operations per day.


anotheramethyst

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1073 on: August 27, 2016, 02:56:41 AM »
A very pretty picture from Obuoy14, no ice in view. I expect Jim will tell us more about those waves in low wind but I guess it shows the absence of the dampening effect of ice even further upwind. Temperatures have been very steady for the last two days without changes marking the 24h cycle of the sun angle, another effect of an ice free ocean surface. Over the preceding six days that cycle can still be seen.

I am astonished that this happened so rapidly.  I never would have guessed.  Also, the arctic is a beautiful, gorgeous place.

Bruce Steele

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1074 on: August 27, 2016, 06:22:56 AM »
Andreas, Yes the Polarstern deployed the array on Aug.23.  Although I have watched the ITP Whoi data for several years this is the first temp/salinity array I have seen deployed on the ice tongue of a Glacier. I wish there was some readings closer to the surface but with only one working ITP buoy I am hungry for data and maybe Polarstern might make some  other new deployments?

Jim Hunt

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1075 on: August 27, 2016, 04:28:26 PM »
Another change in the view from O-Buoy 14:
"The most revolutionary thing one can do always is to proclaim loudly what is happening" - Rosa Luxemburg

ghoti

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1076 on: August 27, 2016, 04:37:55 PM »
That ridging is striking. With a ridge like that is 9/10 of the ice below the surface? If so that should push the bottom melt very hard with the warm saltier water a few meters down.

Jim Hunt

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1077 on: August 27, 2016, 05:01:18 PM »
I expect Jim will tell us more about those waves in low wind but I guess it shows the absence of the dampening effect of ice even further upwind.

Just a bit of local wind chop. Nothing resembling a proper swell. All the big stuff is over in the ESS.

Yet another change of scenery, and a bit more chop:
"The most revolutionary thing one can do always is to proclaim loudly what is happening" - Rosa Luxemburg

Andreas T

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1078 on: August 27, 2016, 05:13:42 PM »
Serves me right for not waiting for the bigger picture before giving my interpretation of a limited view snapshot.  :-[
I still think some of it was valid though, at least I didn't tell everybody how much cleverer I am  ;)

the attached terra 3-6-7 band image gives an overview on 26. 8. http://go.nasa.gov/2bOTbz7, approximate position in green circle

TerryM

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1079 on: August 27, 2016, 11:18:35 PM »
Bruce
Thanks for the wonderful new data set. I assume a dbar is equal to 1/10 of a bar or 1/10 of an atmosphere of pressure. It's depth would then vary with the salinity of the water column above it. Not sure how great the fluctuation would be so close to the calving front, especially when spring tides move things about.
Terry


solartim27

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1080 on: August 28, 2016, 05:43:57 AM »
Very cool edge features here.  Worth viewing bigger.  Also looks like some bigger swells.  I wonder if the edge shows surface melt, or water splashing effects.
FNORD

Bruce Steele

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1081 on: August 28, 2016, 07:01:52 AM »
Terry, The Polarstern link that Andreas posted called the 79 north glacier " Norske Trough " so with a little looking around I found the name of the glacier it flows out of " Nioghalufjerdsfjorden " which is just north of Zacharriae  Isstrom. I am linking the paper with the glacier names . I guess 1.5 to 2.0 C water bathing the bottom of those glaciers shouldn't come as a surprise but it still is somewhat troubling to me , Zacharriae  Isstrom  being a link to the interior.
 Off topic but my father was stationed at Sondrestrom AFB during the Cuban Missile crisis . I showed him a google picture of the AFB and he was shocked with how far the ice had retreated . Again off topic but  somehow he got a call into my mother at our home in SoCal while his base was in high alert as our planes were enroute. I remember very clearly my mother as completely unstitched as I ever saw her.

 http://epic.awi.de/38251/

oren

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1082 on: August 28, 2016, 08:47:36 AM »
Terry, The Polarstern link that Andreas posted called the 79 north glacier " Norske Trough " so with a little looking around I found the name of the glacier it flows out of " Nioghalufjerdsfjorden " which is just north of Zacharriae  Isstrom. I am linking the paper with the glacier names . I guess 1.5 to 2.0 C water bathing the bottom of those glaciers shouldn't come as a surprise but it still is somewhat troubling to me , Zacharriae  Isstrom  being a link to the interior.

NG and ZI glaciers are both an outflow of NEGIS (NorthEast Greenland Ice Stream) flowing hundreds of miles from the interior with a catchment area of 16% of the Greenland ice sheet. So definitely an important location.


TerryM

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1083 on: August 28, 2016, 09:38:21 AM »
Bruce


Thanks for the link, though I'm not sure that it's the one you intended ;>)


I recall "79" as being a euphemism for an unpronounceable glacier, and Nioghalufjerdsfjorden certainly doesn't flow easily from my tongue.
The data collected here will no doubt add to the body of information collected by our own Dr.  Muenchow in Petermann Fjord.
In that case IIRC the warm incoming water entered from the left of the fjord (facing toward Nares Strait), moved upward against the face of the glacier as it freshened, then, mixed with the cold fresh melt water it exited above and to the right because of the coriolis effect.
If I'm recalling the Petermann study correctly the location of the sensors within this fjord might be critical.


OT
When Kennedy announced the blockade I was watching the news with an aged relation who had been a military big shot in WWI England. His take was that announcing a blockade was equivalent to declaring war. He felt that with both sides flying the polar route to bomb their respective enemy, Canada was probably going to get it as badly as either of the combatants.
My parents were out of country & returned ASAP, but scary times for a kid that hadn't even made it to 2nd base yet. ;-{


I'm relying on a sometimes questionable memory for the Petermann information, I believe icyseas.org has it archived somewhere. Also, Petermann Fjord terminates at the glacier and "79" may be open to water flowing in from the south of the island?


Interesting stuff
Terry

binntho

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1084 on: August 28, 2016, 09:50:32 AM »
I recall "79" as being a euphemism for an unpronounceable glacier, and Nioghalufjerdsfjorden certainly doesn't flow easily from my tongue.

"Nioghalvfjerds" is Danish for 79.
because a thing is eloquently expressed it should not be taken to be as necessarily true
St. Augustine, Confessions V, 6

TerryM

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1085 on: August 28, 2016, 10:24:46 AM »
I recall "79" as being a euphemism for an unpronounceable glacier, and Nioghalufjerdsfjorden certainly doesn't flow easily from my tongue.

"Nioghalvfjerds" is Danish for 79.


WoW!!
Not an easy language.


Thanks so much!
Terry

Anne

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1086 on: August 28, 2016, 10:31:30 AM »

P-maker

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1087 on: August 28, 2016, 11:14:10 AM »
Terry:

Quote
Not an easy language.

Rubbish!

Danish numbering system is easy, once you get the hang of it.

Only thing you need to know is this:  In Danish “snes” = 20 = “a score” in English.

According to Wikipedia:

Quote
•   Score is an old word for the number 20. It is used in the famous expression from the Gettysburg Address: "Four score and seven years ago..." = (4*20+7)years = 87 years. And in the Bible: “three score years and ten” meaning: “seventy years old” (3*20+10) (Psalm 90). This was thought to be a normal life span.
•   a score is an American 20 dollar bill (banknote).

So in Danish, Ni-og-halv-fjerde-snes means nine-and-half-four-scores translated into 9 + 3.5*20 = 79 and then you just ad “Fjorden” = the fjord and Wupti! - you know exactly where you are:

At the great fjord on the East Coast of Greenland at 79 degrees N.

I guess this is what happens, when you run out of sponsor names on your exploration trip and then you have to revert to something simpler, such as latitude numbers

Espen

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1088 on: August 28, 2016, 11:28:53 AM »
It is actually very similar to the French language numberwise like Quatre-vingt-neuf (89) 4 times 20 plus 9, but why they havent changed it long time ago is still a mystery in my oppinion, the average Dane cant really explain what it means! And I am Norwegian!
Have a ice day!

be cause

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1089 on: August 28, 2016, 11:30:50 AM »
has Greenland assumed the status of a buoy ?
There is no death , the Son of God is We .

binntho

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1090 on: August 28, 2016, 11:31:37 AM »
Terry:

Quote
Not an easy language.

Rubbish!

Danish numbering system is easy, once you get the hang of it.

Only thing you need to know is this:  In Danish “snes” = 20 = “a score” in English.


Danish numbering system is a real pain in the ass. Being a native speaker of Icelandic, with near-fluent Danish, I constantly have to think through the numbers that my clients are quoting, trying to determine whether "syvogfirs" is 87 or 78 in my head.

The number system is a contraction and works like this:

87 = 7 + 4*20 = "syv og fire sinds tyve" = "syvogfirs"
79 = 9 + 3.5*20 = "ni og halvfjerde sinds tyve" = "nioghalvfjerds"

Totally ridiculous!
because a thing is eloquently expressed it should not be taken to be as necessarily true
St. Augustine, Confessions V, 6

P-maker

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1091 on: August 28, 2016, 12:38:00 PM »
be cause:

Quote
has Greenland assumed the status of a buoy ?

No, but this is also about decoding place names, just as we try to decode signals from modern buoys.

There probably was a reason for giving this particular fjord such a difficult name.

In the early 1900s, Denmark and Norway were battling each other over access to natural resources in East Greenland.

In 1905, Norway split up with Sweden and became an independent country again.

1906-1908, Denmark sent off the “Danmarks-ekspeditionen” to explore East Greenland. Two well-known Danish explorers died trying to circumnavigate this huge glacier. The third guy – Jørgen Brønlund (a Greenlandic) made it to a point south of the glacier, but died there with his notebook and maps from the expedition in his possession. His body was found the following year.

If the Danes would not have called it “Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden” – a distinctively Danish name - the Norwegians maybe could have called it “Syttinifjorden” the following year, as if this would have made it any easier to pronounce.

Let me suggest that English-speaking people here just use “79-fjorden” as an acronym, but try to remember that this place  has a name and a history to remember,



Jim Hunt

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1092 on: August 28, 2016, 01:00:03 PM »
Lest we forget, Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden has (part of) a thread of its very own:

http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,400.700.html
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TerryM

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1093 on: August 28, 2016, 02:34:38 PM »
Sometimes being a monoglot is very humbling.


FWIW
My understanding is that the Sumerians had a numbering system using base  6 10 and 12. Then their systems of weighs and volumes changed depending on what was being weighed or measured. I suppose we do the same when weighing gold. Things apparently have improved over time, even in Norway.
Thank you all, i honestly thought it was a native name that no gringo would never attempt.
Terry

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1094 on: August 28, 2016, 03:48:40 PM »
When I signed up on the forum I mistakenly signed up in a way that precludes my posting images so maybe I could ask someone to go to the itm5 page on the ITP WHOI site and post the image
" Plot of ITM Locations ".  It shows the location of the Microcat array. I believe the Polarstern used this north arm of 79-fjorden " norske trough " as a safer access to the glacial front because the icebergs from the recent calving event make direct access to the front of 79-fjorden difficult/dangerous.
 I would like to thank Andreas for pointing me to the info from Polarstern and Terry for showing some interest in the info on the WHOI site. I believe we are watching an important process that is a direct result of global warming and the processes of rapid glacial outflow resulting from the melting of the sea ice arm along the Northeastern coast of Greenland. Warm Atlantic water is bathing 79-fjorden and Zacharriae Istrom. That is what the microcat array is documenting and maybe other people here might say that was obvious but buoys and hard data are our gold standard here on the forum.
 The paper I linked yesterday shows that magnetic interference previously precluded the sort of hard data that the current Microcat array is documenting. I found another site that has some older satellite pictures from Aug. 2013 that shows that the ice tongue in the " norske tough " has also retreated.
I will move this discussion over to the other page if this this inappropriately placed but I think what is going on here at Zacharriae is important enough to temporarily plug up more than one page.
 Again if someone might post the 2013 satellite pictures from the below linked article I would appreciate it.

   http://www.science20.com/chatter_box/glacier_changes_ne_greenland-114582

Andreas T

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1095 on: August 28, 2016, 06:29:52 PM »
I marked the location of the ITM in a worldview image with an x.
NO stands for Norske Oer (island) and TR for Norske trough which carries warmer water of atlantic origin at depth below 100m  towards the coast while the ice which is still stuck fast in the top left corner sits on the much shallower Belgica bank.

The location map on the Woods Hole site isn't as clear unless you are familiar with the area I feel.

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1096 on: August 28, 2016, 06:58:53 PM »
Sometimes being a monoglot is very humbling.


FWIW
My understanding is that the Sumerians had a numbering system using base  6 10 and 12. Then their systems of weighs and volumes changed depending on what was being weighed or measured. I suppose we do the same when weighing gold. Things apparently have improved over time, even in Norway.
Thank you all, i honestly thought it was a native name that no gringo would never attempt.
Terry


Wait until you see the japanese numbering system for fun:
one thin,flat-object sheet of paper

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_counter_word
and so it goes

Bruce Steele

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1097 on: August 28, 2016, 07:32:29 PM »
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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #638 on: April 05, 2016, 10:50:25 AM »
My guess is it depends on how warm the seawater is at the base, if it's warm enough a fairly rapid retreat to the next ridge, and if that happens quickly a slump beyond that.
Take a look at Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden and see what you think will happen when open water extends beyond the trough below it's front.

 I was wondering about the depth of the Nioghaivfjerdsfjorden . The deepest Microcat is in 500 meters but the ITP location chart doesn't show anything deeper than 200 meters. So looking back through the  Zachariae Isstrom / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland page I found the above posting.
So I guess we now have an answer about the temperature of the water bathing the grounded portion of the glacier. Probably not good news. I hope the array stays in place long enough to watch winter temperatures although I doubt at that bottom depths we will see much difference, but only speculating .
Like I said I can't post images but the above post does have an image of bottom contours for 79 north.

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1098 on: August 28, 2016, 11:09:15 PM »
My understanding is that the Sumerians had a numbering system using base  6 10 and 12. Then their systems of weighs and volumes changed depending on what was being weighed or measured. I suppose we do the same when weighing gold.

I believe this is why minutes have 60 seconds, hours 60 minutes and days 24 hours. Sexagesimal it's called, I believe.

Sorry for the off-topic.  ;)
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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1099 on: August 28, 2016, 11:20:02 PM »
I finally got an image to post. So I am going to drag this over to the Greenland  Zachariae /
Nioghalufjerdsfjorden thread.