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Dharma Rupa

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1800 on: August 23, 2017, 07:59:16 PM »
thanks, didn't know that,

to extend the question a bit, of course without questioning your reply as such, the ice-shelf that broke of in the antarctic is what then, a floe ?

i know its OT but i hope one more question is allowed since it originated on-topic and is just a side-question to further make use of the correct terms and since we're already at it, if an ice-floe ( thick one of course ) would brake loose and later would be sighted somewhere south of greenland from the bridge of a vessel, would there really be made a difference and that one floe would be called floe while all the bergs around it would be bergs ?

i hope it's not too much asked but i really wanna know once and for all :-)

I think the original objective was to distinguish the very hard very old ice from a glacier from the softer newer sea ice.  An ice shelf is more like a glacier in this regard.

A berg is much less likely to give way to even a steel boat than sea ice of the same size.


magnamentis

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1801 on: August 23, 2017, 08:13:03 PM »
Really big icebergs that break off ice sheets rather than glaciers are generally called "tabular icebergs", although the largest are sometimes called "ice islands".

great to get the picture finally, very much appreciated both replies @oren's and yours
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Jim Hunt

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1802 on: August 27, 2017, 06:53:07 PM »
Some wind is rippling the surface of the Northwest Passage.

P.S. Added the next snapshot too:
« Last Edit: August 27, 2017, 07:21:55 PM by Jim Hunt »
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Coffee Drinker

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1803 on: August 29, 2017, 08:24:47 AM »
Buoy 14

Melt ponds start to freeze over?

Andreas T

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1804 on: August 29, 2017, 11:09:53 PM »
There have been some low air temperatures, but the small pieces of ice are still the result of melting, enlarging brine channels are disintegrating icefloes, something which is usually seen in these late stages of bottom melt.

Jim Hunt

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1805 on: August 30, 2017, 12:07:22 AM »
The latest update from IMB buoy 2017B:

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/summer-2017-imb-buoys/#2017B

August 25th is the day before the buoy became "Free Floating":
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

Jim Hunt

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1806 on: August 30, 2017, 12:49:30 AM »
The ripples are back:
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

uniquorn

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1807 on: August 30, 2017, 07:32:35 PM »
Maybe the buoy is doing a bit of icebreaking

Rob Dekker

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1808 on: August 31, 2017, 05:09:36 AM »
Right now there is a fight between bottom melt and top freeze.
Top freeze will win sometime in September, and that will define the minimum.

However, bottom melt is still going on across the Arctic, as witnessed (indirectly) by Warm Buoy 6 (now at  72.76N 147.28W) :



This shows that PAR irradiance that makes it through the ice has tapered off, but is still at some 10 W/m^2. That suggests full irradiance (energy that makes it under the ice) is now running at about 20 W/m^2, which, since most if not all of that goes to bottom-melt, represents about 0.5 cm/day of bottom melt.

With the thin ice floating around in the ice margin, that surely means that ice extent/area will continue to fall until atmospheric temps drop far enough below zero to stop it.


Coffee Drinker

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1809 on: September 03, 2017, 03:52:52 AM »
Look like it has been snowing:


Jim Hunt

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1810 on: September 03, 2017, 08:46:48 AM »
The WARM buoy pushpins have been updated. To my ageing eyes it looks like #6 is now free floating:

Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

magnamentis

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1811 on: September 03, 2017, 09:24:55 PM »
Look like it has been snowing:

true that ;)

when looking towards horizon in the pics taken by this buoy it often looks like a lot of open water while at least one side of the buys is heavily surrounded by persisting ice, the thought crossed my mind that the buoy may have it's own freezer on board ;) :)

just to make sure, i hope that everyone got it that i'm just kidding ;)
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oren

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1812 on: September 11, 2017, 11:00:51 PM »
A good word for O-buoy 14 - it survived another whole melting season. Maybe it felt it was the last of its breed.
The movie has been updated to Sep 8th. A lot of ice floating around, but there doesn't seem to be much or even any refreezing going on.
http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy14/movie

Apocalypse4Real

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1813 on: September 15, 2017, 01:40:23 PM »

oren

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1814 on: September 15, 2017, 02:28:09 PM »
US DOD is deploying new Arctic Ocean buoys as announced on Sept 13 2017.

See: https://www.defense.gov/News/Article/Article/1309969/navy-leads-international-effort-to-deploy-buoys-into-the-arctic-ocean/
Does anyone have any links to the data from these buoys?

ghoti

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1815 on: September 15, 2017, 05:02:59 PM »
They claim the data will be on the IABP site.

http://iabp.apl.washington.edu/maps_daily_table.html

I don't see them listed there yet. I also see that there were many buoys deployed in 2017 that are already dead and dozens from 2016 not reporting.

Andreas T

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1816 on: September 24, 2017, 09:20:32 PM »
As the periods of sufficient sunlight to power the buoy bare getting shorter, we will soon have to say goodbye to OBuoy14 for 6 months. At the moment frost blooms are forming on the ice, which shows that the gaps between ice floes have frozen over. Air temperatures are only -5C which probably means that larger expanses of open water are not freezing yet.
Lets hope the frost starting to form on the camera is not covering up the lens too soon.
The sentinel shot is from the 22nd but probably gives a fair impression of the amount of ice surrounding the buoy location at pressent.

Jim Hunt

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1817 on: October 03, 2017, 05:04:57 PM »
It's starting to look decidedly wintry around O-Buoy 14:
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

oren

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1818 on: October 03, 2017, 06:23:05 PM »
It's starting to look decidedly wintry around O-Buoy 14:
A couple of days ago I noticed the area to the left has finally frozen solid but was rather thin. Now it's covered by snow. I wonder what this will do to winter thickening.

Andreas T

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1819 on: October 04, 2017, 07:36:47 PM »
This recent image serves as a reminder that snow is drifting quite a lot on the ice which must make it quite difficult to quantify what effect snowfall has. Thicker than average drifts alternating with thin patches.
The sentinel image from the 28th shows that floes are still moving and rotating, I would expect wind direction to have been quite uniform when those drifts were formed. Snow blowing onto the sea surface could have helped starting ice cover to form.

echoughton

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1820 on: October 04, 2017, 08:03:32 PM »
Looking at that snow from the #14, We Haven't heard a whole lot of discussion on the impact of heavier snow in Greenland last year...and throughout the entire Arctic region as temps increase, allowing more precipitation. This could have wonderful effects on ice, and has certainly demonstrated positive SMB on Greenland during the last melt season. If big snows add to mass on Greenland they certainly can to ice above 80N. It adds tremendous insulation. Might have certainly helped avoid bigger sea ice losses last year too.

Eli81

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1821 on: October 14, 2017, 02:31:44 PM »
It's going to be a long, dark winter.... :(

Here's to hoping our favorite buoy flickers to life come Spring 2018...

woodstea

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1822 on: October 16, 2017, 07:08:28 PM »
It's going to be a long, dark winter.... :(

Here's to hoping our favorite buoy flickers to life come Spring 2018...

I'll continue to hope that all winter, but I'm feeling pessimistic. Oct. 3 is pretty early for a last picture of the season from O-Buoy 14. Last year we had some from November, though the battery situation may have been different at that time. If it wakes up again next spring I think I'm going to have to throw a party to celebrate.

josh-j

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1823 on: October 17, 2017, 04:43:36 PM »
I'll continue to hope that all winter, but I'm feeling pessimistic. Oct. 3 is pretty early for a last picture of the season from O-Buoy 14. Last year we had some from November, though the battery situation may have been different at that time. If it wakes up again next spring I think I'm going to have to throw a party to celebrate.

The batteries are not really holding much charge now given that the buoy was turning off regularly in the dark as winter has drawn in, so I'm optimistic that the early loss of images is due to the batteries only.

The question is what happens to the rest of the hardware in the long cold I suppose! Fingers crossed.

Tor Bejnar

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1824 on: October 17, 2017, 06:57:22 PM »
"Fingers crossed."

And mitten-ed, I hope!  :)
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things.

A-Team

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1825 on: October 17, 2017, 08:57:41 PM »
Sounds good but when and how many?

AGU17 C21B-1120: Autonomous Ice Mass Balance Buoys for Seasonal Sea Ice
JD Whitlock et al
https://agu.confex.com/agu/fm17/meetingapp.cgi/SearchResults/0 abstract search tool

The ice mass-balance represents the integration of all surface and ocean heat fluxes and attributing the impact of these forcing fluxes on the ice cover can be accomplished by increasing temporal and spatial measurements. Mass balance information can be used to understand the ongoing changes in the Arctic sea ice cover and to improve predictions of future ice conditions.

Thinner seasonal ice in the Arctic necessitates the deployment of Autonomous Ice Mass Balance buoys (IMB’s) capable of long-term in situ data collection in both ice and open ocean. Seasonal IMB’s (SIMB’s) are free floating IMB’s that allow data collection in thick ice, thin ice, during times of transition, and even open water.

The newest generation of SIMB aims to increase the number of reliable IMB’s in the Arctic by leveraging inexpensive commercial-grade instrumentation when combined with specially developed monitoring hardware. Monitoring tasks are handled by a custom, expandable data logger that provides low-cost flexibility for integrating a large range of instrumentation.

The SIMB features ultrasonic sensors for direct measurement of both snow depth and ice thickness and a digital temperature chain (DTC) for temperature measurements every 2cm through both snow and ice. Air temperature and pressure, along with GPS data complete the Arctic picture. Additionally, the new SIMB is more compact to maximize deployment opportunities from multiple types of platforms.

Brigantine

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1826 on: December 01, 2017, 11:39:46 PM »
Something odd at ITP108. Over about the last week, especially the last 2 days, there seems to be about 0.5m of fresh water added to the mixed layer.

Not sure this can really explain it, but it looks like there was a snow event there on Nov 23 (day 327), since which the mixed layer temperature increased ~0.04K (measured at 8m depth).

It has also been drifting SW into the Beaufort Gyre at ~20cm/s, so moving through spacial variation is static water is IMO a better explanation. It has to be a localized feature though to change so much over a short distance.
(Mercator Ocean shows current of maybe 4cm/s to the east, salinity gradient on Mercator & HYCOM is approx 0.4PSU/deg NE-SW but the absolute value is 1.5PSU too high)

By numbers: ~30m MLD, from ~29.1PSU (composite plot) to 28.63PSU (last profile min), from -1.60C (contour) to -1.56 (last profile min). (freezing point increased ~0.026C between these salinities though, so just noise?). Top ~20m of the pacific layer visually (contour & composite plots) seems to be fresher too - to a lesser degree.

Brigantine

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1827 on: December 08, 2017, 01:38:05 AM »
Well disregard that... since then, the salinity sensor on ITP108 has gone completely crazy. So the values from last week are probably unreliable too.

Hyperion

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1828 on: December 10, 2017, 08:47:33 PM »
Well disregard that... since then, the salinity sensor on ITP108 has gone completely crazy. So the values from last week are probably unreliable too.

Oh grasshopper. You so quick to blame the weapon holding you are. ::)

Since its also showing solidly on the dissolved oxygen chart, then its quite possible that spotted one of Veli's giant beavers you have.

See at peak summer flood rivers like the Lena in Siberia and the McKenzie in Alaska carry so much sediment, that though their waters are fresh they are quite dense. So these waters travel at depth for months far out into the polar basin before the dirt sinks and the fresh water rises to the surface.

The deep Arctic waters have been described as like a pile of thousands of slugs slowly crawling around the basin, some dropping from the surface due to high salinity or sediment/dead plankton loadings, some crawling out of the bowl into the nth Atlantic. Some slugs are hypersaline due to now defunct brinacle downwellings from the bottoms of thick and very chill iceshelves. Some of these if say 40psu must be heated by geothermal forces to 50-60C to rise into range of these Buoys. Which may be what happened back at day 315-320 when at 650m an anomaly of over 40 PSU, over 15C, low DO cropped up with vertical disturbances in the water column apparent also.

Waters of differing Salinity and temperature do not mix very easily. 8)

edit: Oops. Attached the Wrong Temp-Salinity plot. Since Nevens still Moderating my posts I can't see my attachments until a few days have passed and he gets around to approving them. Or I would have spotted it. Fixed now.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2017, 08:00:19 PM by Hyperion »
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ghoti

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1829 on: January 15, 2018, 07:20:36 PM »
Not sure if this should go in the buoys thread since the data is from permanent moorings.

http://www.bio.gc.ca/science/newtech-technouvelles/observatory-observatoire-en.php#recent

DFO has real-time monitoring of the Barrow Strait and it appears that the data is now available for us to see. Temperature and salinity and current data seem pretty mundane and standard.

The ice thickness data is interesting though. Not what I expected. Seems like huge variation within short time periods. That has to be a result of the flow of ice through the strait on the current.

I really wonder how this compares with what PIOMAS suggests is there.

Jim Hunt

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1830 on: January 16, 2018, 12:20:19 AM »
DFO has real-time monitoring of the Barrow Strait

Thanks for the heads up. I've never seen that before!

Do you suppose that the web page is new even though the mooring has been there a long time?
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

ghoti

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1831 on: January 16, 2018, 12:54:46 AM »
Do you suppose that the web page is new even though the mooring has been there a long time?
Tough to say for sure. The page describing the moorings project shows an update date in 2015 and there are publications about it (but paywalled so I can't see if it mentions a website). The page with the data was up since at least November 2017.

I only discovered it because DFO tweeted a link to it. That makes me think the data on the web is new.

As an interesting aside they are using the underwater communication method that I think Andreas Muenchow was researching (refining?) this past summer. Also for a few years there have been occasional press stories  about people hearing strange pinging  noises emanating from the CAA straits. Mystery solved?