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Andreas T

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #500 on: August 17, 2014, 11:20:35 AM »
it is impressive how little has changed in a week at Obuoy 10. Air temps now dip to almost -4C when sun is low. Have not seen ice on meltpond yet.
Water temperature (from preliminary data download) has gone up a bit to about -1.25C from about -1.3.
Ice thickness from bottom sounder has been pretty much static. Lets see if the movements further south will have an effect.

greatdying2

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #501 on: August 17, 2014, 09:44:07 PM »
Over the last several days, the horizon of the OBuoy #10 camera has been looking to me like it might be open water, but it's been hard to tell for sure. This photo from today is I think fairly conclusive, showing a bright reflection coming off something in the distance. I can't think what besides liquid water could cause such an effect.
The Permian–Triassic extinction event, a.k.a. the Great Dying, occurred about 250 million years ago and is the most severe known extinction event. Up to 96% of all marine species and 70% of terrestrial vertebrate species became extinct; it is also the only known mass extinction of insects.

Andreas T

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #502 on: August 17, 2014, 10:51:13 PM »
It would be interesting to locate the buoy position on modis image, the clear sky today should make this possible. The camera faces roughly north from sun position and local time. Making an estimate from the gridlines provided on worldview, there isn't much open water in the vicinity, but maybe a small area would be enough. Would a choppy water surface produce the wide reflection (considerably wider than the brightness of the sun)? I would expect a cold layer near the surface so the light might be reflected from a surface beyond the horizon, that would explain why the bright line appears to be above the horizon.

greatdying2

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #503 on: August 18, 2014, 12:00:46 AM »
Making an estimate from the gridlines provided on worldview, there isn't much open water in the vicinity
Are you sure? Wouldn't it (~ 77N*160W, right?) be near the middle of the attached image, close to a lot of water?

Could it perhaps be on one of the larger flows, embedded in the low concentration area?

It sure would be nice to figure out how to find an exact longitude/latitude on WorldView... does anyone know how?
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 12:12:17 AM by greatdying2 »
The Permian–Triassic extinction event, a.k.a. the Great Dying, occurred about 250 million years ago and is the most severe known extinction event. Up to 96% of all marine species and 70% of terrestrial vertebrate species became extinct; it is also the only known mass extinction of insects.

SteveMDFP

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #504 on: August 18, 2014, 12:13:29 AM »
Over the last several days, the horizon of the OBuoy #10 camera has been looking to me like it might be open water, but it's been hard to tell for sure. This photo from today is I think fairly conclusive, showing a bright reflection coming off something in the distance. I can't think what besides liquid water could cause such an effect.
Having watched the end of the current movie for OBuoy 10, I'm skeptical that that's water.  Seems more consistently bright than open water should be.  I suspect it may be a ridge.  Rather similar, perhaps to the closer/smaller ridge seen at OBuoy 9.  Now, the OBuoy 9 image brings up another impression -- that polar snow is awfully darned grey !!!

greatdying2

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #505 on: August 18, 2014, 12:26:20 AM »
Having watched the end of the current movie for OBuoy 10, I'm skeptical that that's water.
Well, the movie ends July 19 and that region (if I have the region right) has changed a lot since then...

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that polar snow is awfully darned grey !!!
No doubt.
The Permian–Triassic extinction event, a.k.a. the Great Dying, occurred about 250 million years ago and is the most severe known extinction event. Up to 96% of all marine species and 70% of terrestrial vertebrate species became extinct; it is also the only known mass extinction of insects.

greatdying2

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #506 on: August 18, 2014, 05:20:50 AM »
For comparison, here is an image from a couple of days ago. What is the white smudge on the horizon, a pressure ridge perhaps?
The Permian–Triassic extinction event, a.k.a. the Great Dying, occurred about 250 million years ago and is the most severe known extinction event. Up to 96% of all marine species and 70% of terrestrial vertebrate species became extinct; it is also the only known mass extinction of insects.

Laurent

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #507 on: August 18, 2014, 10:16:22 AM »
greatdying2
There is the coordinate of your mouse in the down right corner EPSG : 3413 ....  I can't find a converter on the site or on the web.
https://earthdata.nasa.gov/labs/worldview/

greatdying2

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #508 on: August 18, 2014, 01:30:04 PM »
Thanks Laurent.

I found a converter here: http://epsg.io/3413/map . It's hard to say accurately from the graphs on the Obuoy site, but the position appears to be at:

~  156 to 158 W / 77.0 to 77.2 N , which by the EPSG:3413 system is
~ -1320000 to -1280000 / 553000 to 544000 .

This puts the buoy somewhere here (see attached images; the close-up view from same date as photo, Aug. 17; the far-away view is from the day before, which was clearer so gives a better idea where the buoy is relative to the "bite").

I also checked the sun direction (http://suncalc.net/), which seems actually more east than north. But regardless, there is indeed very little or no open water within a few km to the north-east, if the numbers are correct. (The horizon is ~5 km when viewed from ~2 m elevation.) However, a few km to the south there is actually quite a bit of open water.

But it's hard to say how accurate the above numbers are. I still guess that it is water, because what else explains the reflection in the picture? It seems to me very unlikely that it could be a pressure ridge, given the fragmentation in the area. Or perhaps it is the edge of another large floe, but if so, why is the sun reflecting at the same angle as off the melt pond in the foreground.

(Note: Oddly, the Obuoy10 picture hasn't updated since the one we are discussing.)
The Permian–Triassic extinction event, a.k.a. the Great Dying, occurred about 250 million years ago and is the most severe known extinction event. Up to 96% of all marine species and 70% of terrestrial vertebrate species became extinct; it is also the only known mass extinction of insects.

greatdying2

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #509 on: August 18, 2014, 01:31:21 PM »
Forgot to attach sun direction:
The Permian–Triassic extinction event, a.k.a. the Great Dying, occurred about 250 million years ago and is the most severe known extinction event. Up to 96% of all marine species and 70% of terrestrial vertebrate species became extinct; it is also the only known mass extinction of insects.

Jim Hunt

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #510 on: August 18, 2014, 05:48:16 PM »
I'm a bit busy to do this myself at the moment, but you can get 2013F historical positions into a Google Earth .KML by scrolling to the bottom of:

http://batchgeo.com/map/imb-2013f

Similarly for MODIS from e.g.:

http://map1.vis.earthdata.nasa.gov/twms-geo/kmlgen.cgi?layers=MODIS_Terra_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor&time=2014-08-17
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greatdying2

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #511 on: August 19, 2014, 12:53:30 AM »
Thanks Jim!

Here are the 2 KMLs overlaid on Google Earth. This confirms my previous analysis.

The yellow pin is in the middle of where I tried to draw the red box above. North is to the right. The top image is ~ 250 km wide. The nearest clearly visible blue water (at this resolution; i.e., water ~ 1 km across or more) is ~ 50 km to the west.

(Note that the buoy image still hasn't updated.)

« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 01:01:51 AM by greatdying2 »
The Permian–Triassic extinction event, a.k.a. the Great Dying, occurred about 250 million years ago and is the most severe known extinction event. Up to 96% of all marine species and 70% of terrestrial vertebrate species became extinct; it is also the only known mass extinction of insects.

Jim Hunt

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #512 on: August 19, 2014, 01:49:40 AM »
(Note that the buoy image still hasn't updated.)

I'm glad that helped. I update the buoy track in Google maps manually. As I said, I'm a bit busy on other stuff at the moment, so they're not fully up to date!
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plinius

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #513 on: August 19, 2014, 11:13:21 AM »
Over the last several days, the horizon of the OBuoy #10 camera has been looking to me like it might be open water, but it's been hard to tell for sure. This photo from today is I think fairly conclusive, showing a bright reflection coming off something in the distance. I can't think what besides liquid water could cause such an effect.

I would rather consider it to be intense forward scattering on a fog layer. The photo was taken at "night" time, and the air was close to dew point, so I would expect a thin foggy layer over the snow fields (supported of course by evaporation from the water in cracks/ponds). Forward scattering can be very intense (see R. or Mie scattering), in particular when ground has very high reflectivity. Compare to thin clouds near sunset or foggy sunrise pictures over snow/lakes.

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #514 on: August 19, 2014, 03:58:32 PM »
Plinius, that's an interesting possibility.
The Permian–Triassic extinction event, a.k.a. the Great Dying, occurred about 250 million years ago and is the most severe known extinction event. Up to 96% of all marine species and 70% of terrestrial vertebrate species became extinct; it is also the only known mass extinction of insects.

Andreas T

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #515 on: August 19, 2014, 06:03:19 PM »
just in time to support plinius' analysis obuoy 9 shows this type of forward scattering on the top of low clouds or fog. One thing that scattering does and reflection doesn't is that the light is scattered in a wider cone (with a bell curve type intensity distribution). The bright band is much wider than the reflection in the melt pond.

ghoti

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #516 on: August 21, 2014, 02:58:36 AM »
Look at the just deployed 2014F. It shows a 4 cm snow loss and 16 cm loss of ice due to bottom melt in 8 days. Pos: 77.61 N, 146.37 W. Have to wonder what a good storm would do.

ghoti

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #517 on: August 21, 2014, 03:34:37 AM »
The Healy was cruising in the vicinity of buoy 2014C today.


Seems 2014C is on one of the few remaining bits of ice in the area.

http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2014C.htm

Jim Hunt

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #518 on: August 21, 2014, 07:28:17 PM »
Seems 2014C is on one of the few remaining bits of ice in the area.

Here's the most recent temperature profiles. For more on 2014C see also:

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/summer-2014-imbs/#2014C

Scroll to the bottom for more on all the BAS MIZ IMB buoys in the vicinity also. BAS IMB 9 looks to have run out of ice completely!
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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #519 on: August 23, 2014, 12:35:04 PM »
Massive surface melting seems to be ongoing at O-buoy 10. Guess this is just another proof that cloudy skies can create far more melt than any clear day when the sun is at such a low angle in August and May. 850 hPa temps where far higher last week when there only seemed to be limited melt.

Yuha

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #520 on: August 23, 2014, 08:49:44 PM »
Massive surface melting seems to be ongoing at O-buoy 10. Guess this is just another proof that cloudy skies can create far more melt than any clear day when the sun is at such a low angle in August and May. 850 hPa temps where far higher last week when there only seemed to be limited melt.

That seems to be true for surface melt, but you have to remember that a lot of the sunlight penetrates the ice and the water below, increasing bottom melt. It is not clear which causes more melt overall.

Andreas T

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #521 on: August 24, 2014, 12:49:33 PM »
It is useful to look at http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2013F.htm which is colocated and provides additional information when interpreting the images from Obuoy10. It shows snow cover down to 3cm, which probably explains the darker appearance as ice begins to show. Bottom melt is a bit bumpy, I haven't been able to detect a pattern relating it to weather conditions.

Andreas T

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #522 on: August 26, 2014, 09:08:00 PM »
I have been wondering what the uneven surface of the melt pond in front of obuoy10 represents, a frozen surface or lowered  water level exposing ice, the last one I didn't think likely because I would expect the pond to be deeper. I think the latest image confirms the refreeze. A  thin layer of drifted snow appears to lie on ice covering the melt pond.
Bottom melt is continuing according to IMB2013F, although it also shows lower water temperatures than mid August.

Espen

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #523 on: August 26, 2014, 09:13:51 PM »
Have a ice day!

Andreas T

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #524 on: August 26, 2014, 09:39:39 PM »
This is the most recent report from polarstern I could find: http://www.awi.de/en/infrastructure/ships/polarstern/weekly_reports/all_expeditions/ps85_ps87_ark_xxviii/ps87/11_august_2014/
It includes interesting pictures of ridged ice north of greenland (my assumption from the track shown)
current weather from polarstern: http://expedition.awi.de/

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #525 on: August 26, 2014, 10:24:37 PM »
Obuoy 10 is back to it's odd surging motion by GPS.
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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #526 on: August 26, 2014, 10:32:26 PM »
Polarstern visiting the pole: http://sailwx.info/shiptrack/shipposition.phtml?call=DBLK
Temperatures suggest conditions are still good for about a 5MM/day of bottom melt.  No where near enough to melt things out, but potentially still about 15CM of additional bottom melt between now and when the season finishes.
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Andreas T

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #527 on: August 28, 2014, 11:04:47 PM »
there is a new weekly report from Polarstern http://www.awi.de/en/infrastructure/ships/polarstern/weekly_reports/all_expeditions/ps85_ps87_ark_xxviii/ps87/28_august_2014/ in which they mention tides having an effect on currents and stresses in the ice in the vicinity of the pole.

About ice conditions it says:
Quote
Friday (Aug 22). We are sailing further north, having another very successful geological station and a short test of the geophysical gears. These test are necessary as we would like to be sure that all our instruments are running well before we, in 3-4 days, are supposed to meet two Canadian ice breakers, the „Louis St. Laurent“ and the „Terry Fox“ (Fig. 5). A joint venture is planned, starting with a rendezvous at the North Pole, followed by a joint geophysical survey from the Amundsen Basin across Lomonosov Ridge into the Markarov Basin. Crew and scientists are looking forward to this spectacular event!

Saturday (Aug 23) in the afternoon, further shocking news: The two Canadiadian ice breakers cannot make it for our joint venture! Ice conditions are too heavy. Thus, they are not able to finish their ongoing research in time. Again, the ice conditions are against us! Thus, for the coming weeks we are by ourselves. We will continue further north, and plan to go across the pole towards location 89°N, 160°E. At the moment, our progress towards north is quite small. Do we really reach the North Pole? A question we cannot answer now but certainly within the next weekly report!

ghoti

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #528 on: August 29, 2014, 03:38:13 AM »
Interesting. I guess the ice conditions improved because the 2 Canadian ice breakers reached the pole today. I guess 2 days late?

http://t.co/klrsb3VEx1

Andreas T

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #529 on: August 30, 2014, 11:20:52 PM »
The news from Obuoy10 / IMB2013fF at the moment is the bottom melt shown by the bottom sounder of 2013F. It doesn't respond in an obvious way to the conditions at the surface. I would have thought the renewed snowcover would reduce melt, but then it should have been stronger when there was more input from stronger sunlight. Water temperatures are similar to times when there was little melt, salinity data isn't available because the colocated profiler ITP70 has stopped working.
http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2013F.htm


seaicesailor

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #530 on: March 31, 2015, 11:08:51 PM »
Is it possible to estimate snow cover from what the buoys are telling? Would somebody kindly let me know how/where to get these data?

ghoti

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #531 on: March 31, 2015, 11:12:22 PM »

plinius

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #532 on: April 21, 2015, 09:19:11 PM »
http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy10/camera

looks nice: large crystals of hoarfrost on the cold ice reflecting the sunlight. Suspect this is due to the large increase in air temperature (and hence more water) in the region?

ghoti

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #533 on: April 22, 2015, 03:55:11 AM »
Looks like open water in the distance on both Obuoy 11 and 12 images. I guess we know from MODIS there are lots of open leads in the Beaufort.

Jim Hunt

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #534 on: April 22, 2015, 12:01:40 PM »
Looks like open water in the distance on both Obuoy 11 and 12 images.

Agreed about 11, but I can't see a lead at 12. Do you have a picture?

Here's the current one from O-Buoy 11:

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ghoti

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #535 on: April 22, 2015, 04:16:15 PM »
Now all I see is fog. I knew I should have saved the image!

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #536 on: May 17, 2015, 09:34:41 AM »
O-buoy 9 is head across the top of Greenland and has a good sized lead http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy9/camera
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ghoti

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #537 on: May 18, 2015, 04:52:02 AM »
I think that lead is the several hundred km lead seen in worldview north of Greenland.


Jim Hunt

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #538 on: May 18, 2015, 11:30:07 AM »
I think that lead is the several hundred km lead seen in worldview north of Greenland.

I think you'll find that lead is much wider than the one visible from O-Buoy 9:


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plinius

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #539 on: May 18, 2015, 11:30:52 AM »
I'd think you see one of the side-faults. The big rift is far larger than seen in the picture.
By the way - melt appears to have made it on the ice
obuoy12 has been registering near 0C for several hours now (albeit pretty white-out conditions and significant winds) and that in the middle of the night. (Consistently Barrow is holding steady at 3C, near all-time records).

ghoti

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #540 on: May 18, 2015, 05:45:59 PM »
Once again it seems the buoys are telling us there are bears in the area. 2015A webcam show a close up of paw prints.



ghoti

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #541 on: May 19, 2015, 05:59:22 PM »
The polar bear seems to have done us a bit of a favour. The now downward facing camera on 2015A gives a great accounting of the melting snow. The paw prints have almost completely melted away and the snow is showing what I'd consider a classic hot spring day look. (though where I live the snow usually looks much dirtier under these conditions)


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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #542 on: May 19, 2015, 06:11:34 PM »
Hi Ghoti!

It looked pretty slushy on the first image but now its slushy with the juice drained out!!!!
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jai mitchell

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #543 on: May 19, 2015, 10:29:50 PM »
The polar bear seems to have done us a bit of a favour. The now downward facing camera on 2015A gives a great accounting of the melting snow. The paw prints have almost completely melted away and the snow is showing what I'd consider a classic hot spring day look. (though where I live the snow usually looks much dirtier under these conditions)

what is the source for this pic?  website with the buoys? I lost the link! thanks  ;D
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plinius

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #544 on: May 19, 2015, 10:40:32 PM »
http://ipab.apl.washington.edu/camera1.jpg
http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015A.htm

And as we are at the topics. What are those "slits" in the snow? (pretty vertical in this image)

jai mitchell

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #545 on: May 19, 2015, 11:43:03 PM »
yep, that is some definite snowmelt going on, by eyeball, it looks like that snowmelt is a very good approximation in albedo to meltponding. 

I am thinking prevailing winds for the vertical artifacts, seems there are more than the main?  could also be an artifact of ice impacts during buoy placement?
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plinius

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #547 on: May 21, 2015, 04:13:20 PM »
wasn't there a pressure ridge instead of water yesterday?


Buoy 2015B, somewhere deep in the Beaufort/Chukchi region

Ah, just noted - that ripped open before (see 11th may on Jim's page)
« Last Edit: May 21, 2015, 04:32:15 PM by plinius »

plinius

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #548 on: May 22, 2015, 05:41:08 PM »
and the lead has snapped again. Fun dynamics (and pretty impressive surface melting, too).

Nightvid Cole

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #549 on: May 22, 2015, 06:31:02 PM »
and the lead has snapped again. Fun dynamics (and pretty impressive surface melting, too).

You can see the surface melting on MODIS's image for yesterday, despite the clouds. What's really amazing is that the melt already extends quite a distance offshore of Alaska, and it isn't even June yet!!!