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TerryM

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1100 on: August 29, 2016, 12:54:54 AM »
I finally got an image to post. So I am going to drag this over to the Greenland  Zachariae /
Nioghalufjerdsfjorden thread.


Good idea, see you there.


One thing before I leave this thread:


I believe Andreas may be one outlet too far south - at least according to Worldview's coordinates. The correct positioning of the sensors is I believe close to the western shore of the region referred to as Spaltegletscher by Mauri P. on his old site at.


https://glacierchange.wordpress.com/2013/06/18/nioghalvfjerdsbrae-79-glacier-northeast-greenland/


The shallow depth shown for this location does seems very odd.


Terry

Andreas T

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1101 on: August 29, 2016, 05:32:26 AM »
I rechecked, position of ITM5
Quote
Last position on 2016/8/27 233101 UTC : 79.6841° N, 20.3483° W
is what I have marked with a small cross near where part of 79N glacier branches off (spalten means split in German, something similar in Danish?) towards what Mauri calls its north eastern terminus.
sorry, last Greenland place names post here by me
The location map on the Woods Hole site probably shows glacier ice surface as a flat 0m elevation rather than sea floor beneath it.

wili

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1102 on: August 29, 2016, 05:39:49 AM »
(Since we're wandering off topic a bit, I just note that the Hindu numbers 1-100 are particularly wild and unpredictable: http://www.softschools.com/languages/hindi/hindi_numbers_1_100/ )
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Bruce Steele

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1103 on: August 29, 2016, 07:02:20 AM »
O.K. I,m back and I haven't escaped the buoy page.
I spent my whole life at sea and I can tell you if I had to navigate a boat with the lat /long lines on that itm5 drift track chart I would end up on the rocks somewhere in northeast Greenland.  Eyeballing the
white triangle would be somewhere around 79*40 N  20*3 W. so the longitude looks right but that white triangle ain't nowhere near 79*68 N.  if you look at the lat lines on the sidebar the bottom line is 79*30 the next line fifteen degrees higher is  79*45 and then the next line another 15 degees north should be 79*60 not 80*00 N. So we should assume  the chart is mislabeled .
 I still don't get the depths it gives either but maybe there is something wrong there also.  All of this kinda throws cold water on my claim about hard data and gold standards  so I am going to fall back on the lat/long numbers given for current location and ignor that confused chart.
 " Not for Navigation " 
So I am thinking Andreas has the location correct because it is on the floating ice tongue where the polarstern says they put it . The depth of 79N is supported  by several other sources and maybe I am just off in the weeds somewhere.  If I was diverting attention from buoys we should be watching I'd feel bad but we don't have a lot to look at for buoy data right now.

Watching_from_Canberra

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1104 on: August 29, 2016, 08:33:06 AM »
Shame about the drop on the lens at the moment - would have been a great sunset pic...

woodstea

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1105 on: August 29, 2016, 08:20:49 PM »
The old man of the sea.

be cause

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1106 on: August 29, 2016, 08:35:19 PM »
compaction in action ? :)
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TerryM

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1107 on: August 29, 2016, 09:13:57 PM »
O.K. I,m back and I haven't escaped the buoy page.
I spent my whole life at sea and I can tell you if I had to navigate a boat with the lat /long lines on that itm5 drift track chart I would end up on the rocks somewhere in northeast Greenland.  Eyeballing the
white triangle would be somewhere around 79*40 N  20*3 W. so the longitude looks right but that white triangle ain't nowhere near 79*68 N.  if you look at the lat lines on the sidebar the bottom line is 79*30 the next line fifteen degrees higher is  79*45 and then the next line another 15 degees north should be 79*60 not 80*00 N. So we should assume  the chart is mislabeled .
 I still don't get the depths it gives either but maybe there is something wrong there also.  All of this kinda throws cold water on my claim about hard data and gold standards  so I am going to fall back on the lat/long numbers given for current location and ignor that confused chart.
 " Not for Navigation " 
So I am thinking Andreas has the location correct because it is on the floating ice tongue where the polarstern says they put it . The depth of 79N is supported  by several other sources and maybe I am just off in the weeds somewhere.  If I was diverting attention from buoys we should be watching I'd feel bad but we don't have a lot to look at for buoy data right now.
Could it be degrees/minutes as opposed to degree/percent?
(Damn Sumerians)
Terry

rog

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1108 on: August 30, 2016, 09:06:49 PM »
The following O-Buoy #14 image was take on the 28th
I believe the image shows the broken ice "bowl" that O-Buoy #14 was encased in all winter.
Arrows point to the broken bowl and reddish pigment stains. Image shows date and time.
I think a quick moving squall "rubblized" a lot of ice, broke O-Buoy free, and plastered the camera with slush. The image is after some amount of time (few hours?) when the camera cleared.


O-Buoy #14 GPS and Weather record no such event?
Today, the 30th, the camera is plastered again.

Rog

Patrick

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1109 on: August 30, 2016, 09:21:47 PM »
Rog, your "reddish pigment stain" is just lens flare.

rog

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1110 on: August 30, 2016, 09:33:16 PM »
Looking closer, does not look like lens flare to me.

woodstea

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1111 on: August 30, 2016, 09:35:10 PM »
Rog, the pink/red that you see is an optical effect. If you step through the video a bit, you'll see the same pink feature superimposed on a different part of that ice pack -- it's not an ice stain. I think that the ice shapes in that photo are unrelated to the buoy. I can't think of any reason why a bowl/collar of ice would persist around the buoy when everything else around it had melted away. Maybe they need to install a selfie stick on these things.

There's been some southward movement in the last couple of days. If GFS forecasts hold up O-Buoy 14 should continue to move towards Banks Island and/or the M'Clure Strait. It'd be interesting if it got close enough for a view of land.



« Last Edit: August 30, 2016, 09:40:29 PM by woodstea »

oren

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1112 on: August 31, 2016, 12:00:52 AM »
This ice looks like a pile of sh*t. It's a miracle the buoy is still there.

Adam Ash

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1113 on: August 31, 2016, 04:11:37 AM »
The OBuoy location at 20160831 000139.  Interesting it is hovering at the edge of the continental shelf, which is also the edge of the compacted ice.

At present, as the cam views show, she is bobbing among the messy free ice out beyond the compacted ice in the throat of M'Clure Straight.

I note that she hasn't updated her camera from the 00:01:39 image - is this image the last thing a drowning buoy sees?

woodstea

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1114 on: August 31, 2016, 08:08:14 PM »
Adam, nice job with the maps. The movies for the various O-Buoys are interesting to watch for clues about what happened to each. Mostly it's hard to say exactly, especially since you can only look back two years with the graphs, so the data for the older buoys is inaccessible. A couple of the videos appear to show sky, suggesting that the buoy was tilted.

I'd guess that in many cases where the buoy survived a first winter and made it until the following fall, that the power ran out. I'm assuming that the lithium battery packs wouldn't last a whole year, so solar power would be necessary to continue operation. So it might be lack of sunlight in the fall, or else the buoy being put into a position where it could no longer receive sufficient sunlight -- knocked over or buried in a pressure ridge, for instance.

O-Buoy 14 has continued to update statistics and the camera image, and the power levels look reasonably good. I think it's more of what we've seen already, ice on the camera lens. Looks sunny at the moment, so hopefully we'll get a clear image again later today.

oren

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1115 on: August 31, 2016, 09:23:29 PM »
...hopefully we'll get a clear image again later today.

Indeed.


ghoti

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1116 on: August 31, 2016, 11:37:31 PM »
Look at those icicles hanging from the big block at the top of the pile. Surface melt refreezing or wave splash dripping off the top?

LarsBoelen

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1117 on: September 01, 2016, 06:19:16 PM »
Looking at all the data from buoy14 I am missing one piece of information that would help understand what's going on : wave hight and wave time. With more and more ice becoming really thin one would expect waves to become an increasing (melt) factor?

marcel_g

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1118 on: September 01, 2016, 06:45:10 PM »
woah, oren's image seems to have updated itself, the sun and icicles and collection of slushy ice are gone and now we can see a lot of open water and some significant wave action. That slushy ice may have melted, or the buoy may have turned. Either way, very interesting.

jdallen

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1119 on: September 01, 2016, 07:57:31 PM »
...hopefully we'll get a clear image again later today.

Indeed.


The tilt of the image may be a product of the modest swells in the background.
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woodstea

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1120 on: September 01, 2016, 09:16:35 PM »
Watch the movie, which shows what happened there. O-Buoy 14 had become attached to a pack of ice including that higher feature on the left. That lasted a day or two. Watch the evening of 8/31 in particular, the camera is clear and you can see that the buoy and the ice in front and to the left are not moving in relation to one another. Around 4am this morning (movie time, I assume UTC) that pack started to come apart, and within an hour or so the buoy was free to start rotating on its own again. Temps had been pretty warm there yesterday along with sun and not too much wind, but then the wind started to pick up.

You can see that the roll graph gets interesting about that time. Once free of that ice it seems the buoy has been getting buffeted pretty well by wind and waves. Here's the GFS 12z 6-hour from Tropical Tidbits, quite the pressure gradient near the buoy:




oren

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1121 on: September 01, 2016, 10:35:07 PM »
woah, oren's image seems to have updated itself
I was sure I put in a link to a permanent image, instead of a pointer...

magnamentis

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1122 on: September 02, 2016, 12:56:31 AM »
...hopefully we'll get a clear image again later today.

Indeed.


The tilt of the image may be a product of the modest swells in the background.

at times when the cam seems to look up into the skies  the roll value seems to correspond. i dunno enough about that stuff to tell but that's what believe to see as a connection. yesterday when the camera was even the roll value was back to where it was before. perhaps an expert can either confirm or correct :-)

Edit: this time it seems to look down which could be the same just into the other direction, really not sure :D

ghoti

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1123 on: September 02, 2016, 02:12:25 AM »
The movie has been updated again and shows lots of movement and sloshing about. Some of the blurred images might be the buoy pushed up against the ridge of ice blocks.

Adam Ash

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1124 on: September 02, 2016, 09:49:23 AM »
Yes its getting knocked around a lot.  I guess, at least, now we know what night time looks like from inside a show ball!

woodstea

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1125 on: September 02, 2016, 08:04:33 PM »
Here is the western entry to the M'Clure Strait from Worldview, Aug 26-30. The approximate location of O-Buoy 14 is marked -- the circles should probably be larger to indicate a larger margin of error in my method.

It's interesting to watch the race between the buoy moving toward the strait and a higher concentration of ice, and the ice retreating before it because it's also moving in that direction and/or melting.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2016, 08:13:04 PM by woodstea »

Jim Hunt

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1126 on: September 03, 2016, 02:29:57 PM »
"The most revolutionary thing one can do always is to proclaim loudly what is happening" - Rosa Luxemburg

oren

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1127 on: September 03, 2016, 02:42:13 PM »

Buddy

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1128 on: September 03, 2016, 03:11:18 PM »

Quote
Blue ocean. In the coming years this image might WILL be the norm...



FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

seaicesailor

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1129 on: September 03, 2016, 06:04:03 PM »
The mists have cleared:

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/arctic-sea-ice-images/summer-2016-images/#OBuoy-14
Where is the buoy sitting on? Can the buoy just float and keep straight while sending pics?

Jim Hunt

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1130 on: September 03, 2016, 06:16:38 PM »
The mists have cleared:

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/arctic-sea-ice-images/summer-2016-images/#OBuoy-14
Where is the buoy sitting on? Can the buoy just float and keep straight while sending pics?

It can indeed float and keep straight(ish). See the end of this video for convincing evidence of that:



Perhaps we'll be able to have a ringside seat during freeze up this year too?
"The most revolutionary thing one can do always is to proclaim loudly what is happening" - Rosa Luxemburg

seaicesailor

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1131 on: September 03, 2016, 06:21:03 PM »
The mists have cleared:

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/arctic-sea-ice-images/summer-2016-images/#OBuoy-14
Where is the buoy sitting on? Can the buoy just float and keep straight while sending pics?

It can indeed float and keep straight(ish). See the end of this video for convincing evidence of that:



Perhaps we'll be able to have a ringside seat during freeze up this year too?

Nice! I hope that is possible. The absence of waves for a while might help the buoy stay straight and the ice smoothly refreeze around ... looking forward to it. If anything, some of the pics this buoy has been sending were worth of making it in National Geographic cover page!
PS. And that unforgettable Mr. Wilson scene!
« Last Edit: September 03, 2016, 06:41:36 PM by seaicesailor »

Jim Hunt

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1132 on: September 04, 2016, 02:05:32 AM »
Does anyone have a suggestion about what's in the background here?
"The most revolutionary thing one can do always is to proclaim loudly what is happening" - Rosa Luxemburg

slow wing

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1133 on: September 04, 2016, 02:20:27 AM »
Maybe some clouds or fog back-lit by the sun?

The shadows in the waves shows the camera is facing somewhat towards the sun.

budmantis

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1134 on: September 04, 2016, 05:44:09 AM »
It could be a wave or tsunami.

DavidR

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1135 on: September 04, 2016, 07:18:14 AM »
Jim Hunt  surfing?
Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore

Andreas T

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1136 on: September 04, 2016, 08:43:19 AM »
I think this is a gap in the clouds in the distance which lets the camera see the brightly lit upper part of the clouds further away.
I am, just like everybody else too lazy to work out what the camera direction is from azimuth at the time of the photograph and angle of camera to buoy azimuth, from previous experience this is not entirely straightforward.
At some point I expect we will see the snowcovered mountains of Banks island, but this isn't it yet.

jdallen

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1137 on: September 04, 2016, 09:32:24 AM »
Does anyone have a suggestion about what's in the background here?
Considering possible temperature differentials, could be refraction.  Think mirage...
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oren

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1138 on: September 04, 2016, 09:38:40 AM »
At first glance I thought an island, but no. Probably a white cloud.

AmbiValent

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1139 on: September 04, 2016, 10:51:58 AM »
It's a good bit above the water surface. Also, the clouds aren't closed even in the foreground, so I'm pretty sure those are sunlit clouds.
Bright ice, how can you crack and fail? How can the ice that seemed so mighty suddenly seem so frail?

Adam Ash

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1140 on: September 04, 2016, 11:10:14 AM »
x Wiki:  For an observer on the ground with eye level at h = 5 ft 7 in (1.70 m), the horizon is at a distance of 2.9 miles (4.7 km). For an observer standing on a hill or tower 100 feet (30 m) in height, the horizon is at a distance of 12.2 miles (19.6 km).

The camera looks like it could be say 1.7 m above water level from which it could see the horizon at a distance of 4.7 km.
Banks Island has mountains up to 300 m from which you could see 61.9 km. 
http://www.ringbell.co.uk/info/hdist.htm

So the buoy would get a glimpse of the tops at a total distance of 4.7+61.9 = 65.6 km, or less.  `

For scale, its about 140 km from Banks Island to the edge of the continental shelf.  If the buoy is halfway or closer, then it is possible given a clear day, that it be will yelling "Land Ho!"  sometime soon.

Jim Hunt

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1141 on: September 04, 2016, 01:16:38 PM »
The prize for surreal inventiveness goes to DavidR!

My best guess was a bank of fog, but I don't think I'd bet my shirt on it. Maybe the next update of the video will help?

Here's the ITP 89 tracking map, plus the one and only time I've ever been surfing in fog:

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Andreas T

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1142 on: September 04, 2016, 06:21:06 PM »
something has gone foop in the night again, could be the floe seen here before:
The old man of the sea.

A-Team

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1143 on: September 04, 2016, 07:02:10 PM »
Horizon is tilted as well.

Adam Ash

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1144 on: September 04, 2016, 11:36:36 PM »
From the last location on Jim's map there is no way to see the hills of Banks Is from the buoy  Another 70 km closer, maybe.

Jim Hunt

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1145 on: September 05, 2016, 11:47:40 AM »
From the last location on Jim's map there is no way to see the hills of Banks Is from the buoy  Another 70 km closer, maybe.

Remember that O-Buoy 14 is no longer colocated with ITP 89, but it still seems to be fairly close going by their GPS readings. I don't think it looks like Banks in the background either!
"The most revolutionary thing one can do always is to proclaim loudly what is happening" - Rosa Luxemburg

Jim Hunt

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1146 on: September 06, 2016, 09:52:51 PM »
Images are arriving from O-Buoy 14 once again:
"The most revolutionary thing one can do always is to proclaim loudly what is happening" - Rosa Luxemburg

ghoti

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1147 on: September 07, 2016, 12:43:27 AM »
The newest 15 seconds of the Obuoy movie look rather sloshy as ice first seen in the distance arrives at the buoy (or the other way around). Pity there is night again there so some of the frames don't show much.

woodstea

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1148 on: September 08, 2016, 07:19:11 AM »
Land ho? Or more atmospherics?

Andreas T

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1149 on: September 08, 2016, 08:45:45 AM »
The distance from Banks Island is still too great to see it. It is not very high on that coast and by my estimate the buoy is still roughly 40km away.
The photo from 5:01 seems to show its surroundings before the wind picked up again. The broken ice is a bit more spread out.

Through the clouds of the 7.9. we can see the edge of the compact ice pushed into McClure strait.