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Author Topic: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / NE Greenland  (Read 552856 times)

Espen

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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #150 on: May 22, 2014, 09:00:11 PM »
It is obvious we have a same calving pattern as for instance Petermann, although in smaller scale, the "outcasts" are just floating into the sea, different to Helheim and Jacobshavn where "they" are turned upside down, another proof of thickness and space underneath?   
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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #151 on: May 28, 2014, 05:57:30 AM »
Zachariae Isstrøm update:

Further strong movement at "Speedy Gonzachariae":

Please click on image to start animation!
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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #152 on: May 28, 2014, 04:07:59 PM »
It is obvious we have a same calving pattern as for instance Petermann, although in smaller scale, the "outcasts" are just floating into the sea, different to Helheim and Jacobshavn where "they" are turned upside down, another proof of thickness and space underneath?

I would just like to make certain I understand this.

A calved iceberg would more likely flip if its thickness or depth is more than its breadth. Since they are floating out to sea, without tipping, this would suggest they are not as deep, right?

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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #153 on: May 28, 2014, 04:13:09 PM »
Zachariae Isstrøm update:

Further strong movement at "Speedy Gonzachariae":

Please click on image to start animation!

When I look at the speed of this glacier and evidence of substantial cracking occurring far from the  calving face, it seems this glacier could  become a real monster for ice mass loss.

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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #154 on: May 28, 2014, 04:14:13 PM »
Shared Humanity,

Yes, is what I believe, but I don't have any evidence to support is, just my logical sense? ;)
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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #155 on: May 28, 2014, 04:17:37 PM »
Zachariae Isstrøm update:

Further strong movement at "Speedy Gonzachariae":

Please click on image to start animation!

When I look at the speed of this glacier and evidence of substantial cracking occurring far from the  calving face, it seems this glacier could  become a real monster for ice mass loss.

Shared Humanity,

Yes I believe this glacier got some more confidence, after the "front wall" went away, and it will be one of the more interesting glaciers to follow in the near future.
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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #156 on: May 28, 2014, 04:24:20 PM »
Espen....

I  have other questions. I am fascinated by the tongue of glacier that has been separated and has open sea on both sides. Are there other Greenland glaciers where this has happened? Would this exposure to sea on both sides cause this tongue to be especially vulnerable? In the Antarctic threads, there is a great deal of research discussing the impact of sea water in moving the grounding line and thinning the shelf of a glacier. Could this be happening on both sides of this tongue? What portion of this glacier is currently grounded? As the portion that is grounded shrinks, could we possibly see a catastrophic failure where the bulk of the glacier calves in a very short space of time. By short, I mean something like that spectacular calving event from "Chasing Ice".

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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #157 on: May 28, 2014, 04:35:31 PM »
S. H.

I think the tongue will remain where it is for years to come, but disintegrate from both the fjord and sea side. The separation of the tongue I believe is unique in this scale.   
The direct sea access to Zachariae Isstrøm will strengthen the calving and retreat rate, seem to be very obvious by now.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2014, 04:47:06 PM by Espen »
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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #158 on: May 28, 2014, 04:40:59 PM »
Thanks, Espen.

Andreas T

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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #159 on: May 28, 2014, 09:21:49 PM »
taking the north south extent of the image as 25km I get approx. 500m for the width of the narrowest of the icebergs. Am I getting these figures right Espen?
this is very close to the thickness shown by sidd some while back
"Zachariae Isstrøm is definitely on the move, not so much 79th Fjords. Zachariae even moved during the last dark season."

Right on. I attach Fig 4d and 4e from Khan(2014) doi:10.1038/NCLIMATE2161
see how ZI is still grounded unstable on retrograde bed but NG is already afloat from deepest point out to calving front.
It does not look like these bergs are grounded though so their thickness would be somewhere less than that. It seems to me that the profile shown in that paper explains the breaking up at the calving front by the deformation the ice undergoes (and likely crevassing) as it moves over the ridge about 35km back from the 2011 calving front.
Something noticeable in your animation is that the icebergs furthest from the glacier are not moving (held by landfast ice I guess) and there seems to be ridging were the glacier pushes against that landfast ice.

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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #160 on: May 28, 2014, 10:52:20 PM »
Andreas,

No you are right, the "calves" are not stranded, they are stuck in the fjord ice / sea ice for the time being.
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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #161 on: May 29, 2014, 09:33:33 AM »
Here is the same scene but at higher resolution and in natural colors. I have created a "double exposure" image with one made 64 days before on 2014-3-24. Same path/row gives images from the satellite in the same position and less apparent movement.

My favorite "hexagonal feature" can be seen on the left, a bit above the middle.

The ice moves about 390 meter, which gives an average "speed" of about 6.1 m/day. Most of the calves move at about the same speed except three of them that hardly move at all.

I have marked the ridge that apparently separates the sea ice moving with the glacier and the fast ice with arrows.

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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #162 on: May 29, 2014, 09:53:35 AM »
Here is a curious detail of a developing ridge line a bit to the north in the same set of images. In the first image the line is still rather uniform, two months later it is notched. The width of the notches is comparable with the movement of the glacier ice on the left. I'd think it is where the moving sheet of ice either moves over or below the fast ice sheet.

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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #163 on: May 29, 2014, 07:16:55 PM »
The "double exposure" is very effective. Thanks


Terry

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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #164 on: May 31, 2014, 10:40:21 AM »
Zachariae update:

Please click on image to start animation!

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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #165 on: May 31, 2014, 11:39:53 AM »
Wondering how Zachariae will react after a few months of sun and a sea ice free bay?
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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #166 on: May 31, 2014, 04:28:55 PM »
Zachariae update:

Please click on image to start animation!

Espen....looking at this animation, how many kilometers (meters?) are captured on the horizontal axis? I am interested in how far the pronounced cracks that have formed are from the calving face.

Espen

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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #167 on: May 31, 2014, 04:58:39 PM »
Shared Humanity,

Wipneus made several images above in this thread with scales?
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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #168 on: May 31, 2014, 05:10:12 PM »
Using the scale in Wipneus' image from the 29th I measure the stationary iceberg lowest (most southerly) in Espen's image as about 1.5 km in the horizontal (east - west) extension, you could use that to give an idea of scale.

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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #169 on: May 31, 2014, 05:16:18 PM »
Espens's Landsat 8 images have the standard 30m/pixel resolution. This image is 498pixels wide, or 14.94 km.

My images can be 15m, but sometimes 30m or 60m to reduce the files to workable size. The raw images are about 600MB.

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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #170 on: May 31, 2014, 05:23:37 PM »
I will estimate the furthest crack at the moment to be approximately 4,5 km from the calving front.
So to be on that glacier anywhere near the calving front will be risky business.

ps: Petermann is far more reliable!
« Last Edit: May 31, 2014, 05:32:51 PM by Espen »
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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #171 on: May 31, 2014, 09:14:35 PM »
There is room for a considerable retreat this season, and hopefully actions will be taken.
There are few other glaciers further north to be observed.
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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #172 on: May 31, 2014, 09:17:39 PM »
Thanks, everyone.

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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #173 on: May 31, 2014, 10:28:12 PM »
I'm not an expert but I believe the current events at Zachariae provide a rare opportunity to observe one of the most dynamic phenomena in glaciology. A marine terminating glacier with the grounding line and calving front at the same spot on a retrograde bed is a highly unstable configuration. I think we are going to see a lot of papers on Zachariae over the next decade.

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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #174 on: June 10, 2014, 04:57:25 AM »
Speedy Gonzachariae on the move as usual:

Please click on image to start animation!
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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #175 on: June 11, 2014, 06:23:22 PM »
What is all the fuss about?

When I realized what was going around Zachariae Isstrøm sometimes in 2012, it became clear to me to keep an eye on this glacier anyway I was always fascinated with the Jøkelbugt Bay area for some strange reason so it was not really a burden.
The tongue of Zachariae was separated from the glacier that year (2012), a very unusual behaviour imho. This event went more or less unoticed, I discussed it with Mauri Spelto and he blogged it, but that is the only place I have seen / heard anything about it, except from what has been discussed in this thread.
Then I tried to scale things.
Petermann vs. Zachariae and Jakobshavn vs. Zachariae and I came to the conclusion;
What is all the fuss about? Am I the only who can see the potential here?
I hope not, it may be because a lot of scientists keep radio silence till when they release all their papers, lets hope so??
We all know the media hype about Petermann and Jakobshavn, you heard about Zachariae? Then try to Google it?
But the fact is Zachariae Isstrøm lost several times the glacier area in just 12 years (from 2002) than Jakobshavn lost in more than hundred years (from 1913), did you know that?
Jakobshavn reminds me of Shania Twain: That don't impress me much!

Please click on image to enlarge!!

Jakobshavn and Zachariae images below (same scale) and both from 2002.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 06:29:23 PM by Espen »
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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #176 on: June 11, 2014, 09:30:02 PM »
Isn't Zachariae the glacier with another glacier right next to it (one with a number or something), or am I mixing up my East Greenland glaciers?

When starting the ASIB I planned on writing a series about Greenland glaciers, but never got any further than Jakob and Peter, although I vaguely remember Zack being next in line.
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Espen

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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #177 on: June 11, 2014, 09:40:36 PM »
Neven,

Yes Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden or 79 North is just upstairs ( next door north of Lambert Land, named from a Dutch fisher/hunter btw.), although the name is fascinating there is not much business there.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 09:52:08 PM by Espen »
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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #180 on: June 11, 2014, 11:17:13 PM »
Epsen strikes again?
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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #181 on: June 11, 2014, 11:23:29 PM »
BTW Think you do have a point. Based on elevation map. That one has the shortest distance to get into the interior and that largest section of the interior.
Does have a problem though. Location, location , location. Most researches use military to help them into the interior and the military is in the south. Would be very costly to get up north and up untill the last few years held back by ASI. No ASI and presto you have a wide open door to move through.
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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #182 on: June 11, 2014, 11:32:43 PM »
LRC1962,

Scientists are like anyone else, pick the low hanging fruits, pr and funds, and let the nerds do the rest.
It is the same way tourism evolves, backpackers first and then the business starts from there?
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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #183 on: June 11, 2014, 11:42:52 PM »
Guess it took research paper .
http://www.dr.dk/Nyheder/Viden/Miljoe/20140317134002.htm This one has good side-byside speed change comparison.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/Print/2014/03/17/previously_stable_greenland_glaciers_now_rushing_to_the_sea/
Study from ocean influence http://icyseas.org/2013/10/31/ocean-circulation-and-melting-glaciers-off-north-east-greenland/
Another paper http://www.the-cryosphere-discuss.net/8/2331/2014/tcd-8-2331-2014-print.pdf
Main other hits is the usual CD doing damage control by trying to trivialize the calving.
Hope this helps.
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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #184 on: June 11, 2014, 11:45:30 PM »
LRC1962,

Scientists are like anyone else, pick the low hanging fruits, pr and funds, and let the nerds do the rest.
It is the same way tourism evolves, backpackers first and then the business starts from there?

"Opportunity"

And it's saaaaddddd...I can't think of any Shania Twain songs off the top of my head.

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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #185 on: June 11, 2014, 11:46:27 PM »
I cherry pick low hanging fruit on google. Unfortunately neven and ASIB monopolize the best when it comes to the Arctic. ;)
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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #186 on: June 11, 2014, 11:51:46 PM »
"All truth passes through three stages: First, it is ridiculed; Second,  it is violently opposed; and Third, it is accepted as self-evident."
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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #187 on: June 12, 2014, 12:00:30 AM »
I cherry pick low hanging fruit on google. Unfortunately neven and ASIB monopolize the best when it comes to the Arctic. ;)

Fairly new most of them (2014) and from skimming, some details pretty in-acurate, yes they are in a hurry now!
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"All truth passes through three stages: First, it is ridiculed; Second,  it is violently opposed; and Third, it is accepted as self-evident."
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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #189 on: June 12, 2014, 12:25:57 AM »
I limited google to 1 year.  Very little as you say previous to that. Media likes a juicy paper then picks out what they think are juicy facts then fill in the rest of the space with 'facts' .  Then leave it up to the scientist to try and get the real facts out.
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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #190 on: June 12, 2014, 07:29:31 AM »
I think Andreas Munchow is currently on the Polarstern headed to this area (http://icyseas.org/2014/04/14/north-greenland-glacier-ice-ocean-interactions-2014/ ) so perhaps there will be some more information and studies of this area soon.

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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #191 on: June 12, 2014, 01:28:34 PM »
Scientists are like anyone else, pick the low hanging fruits, pr and funds, and let the nerds do the rest.
It is the same way tourism evolves, backpackers first and then the business starts from there?

I think this is a very unfair view of scientists.

First, scientist choose their research topics primarily based on their (or their supervisor's) personal scientific interests and the potential to achieve scientifically significant results. PR potential is rarely the top criterion. Funding is important of course, and that's why scientist spend a lot of effort in trying to convince funding agencies that what they want to research is worth funding.

Second, science takes time. The recent Nature paper mentioned above was published in March 2014 but submitted already in October 2013. The research very likely started months earlier, well before the first post in this thread, and quite likely some of the authors first became interested in the topic some time in 2012 if not earlier. There are likely other research groups currently studying Zachariae but have not reached a publication stage yet. Others are probably watching with interest but do not currently have the resources for a new project or are waiting for more data before starting a project. We just don't hear about these because scientists do not seek publicity for unfinished research.

Third, there are good reasons why scientists "flock" to the same glaciers. If you develop a new glacier model or a new technique for analyzing glacier data, what you want to do is to demonstrate that your new method is in some way better than previous methods, so you apply your method to a heavily studied glacier.

Sorry for this outburst. You may have guessed that I am a scientist myself though not in a field that has anything to do with glaciers or climate.

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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #192 on: June 12, 2014, 09:34:51 PM »
Espen, probably you're aware of this but quite a lot of advance information can be gleaned from scientific conference submissions, i.e. AGU, EGU and relevant specialist events.  Sometimes, there's a lot of detail in the abstracts or even complete posters, other times the juicy stuff requires being there in person (although AGU at least is rapidly expanding its video offerings).  Other times it's just a teaser, as in the last sentence of this EGU one:  http://meetingorganizer.copernicus.org/EGU2014/EGU2014-3872-3.pdf.

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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #193 on: June 13, 2014, 07:10:55 PM »
Scientists are like anyone else, pick the low hanging fruits, pr and funds, and let the nerds do the rest.
It is the same way tourism evolves, backpackers first and then the business starts from there?

Sorry for this outburst. You may have guessed that I am a scientist myself though not in a field that has anything to do with glaciers or climate.

And I am not an scientist ;) maybe a pre medialist?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 07:17:49 PM by Espen »
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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #194 on: June 14, 2014, 01:51:04 AM »
From Wikipedia
Quote
A scientist, in a broad sense, is one engaging in a systematic activity to acquire knowledge. In a more restricted sense, a scientist may refer to an individual who uses the scientific method.[1] The person may be an expert in one or more areas of science.[2] Scientists perform research toward a more comprehensive understanding of nature, including physical, mathematical and social realms.
I think that is a good definition. You may not have a degree, but there is no question you fit the definition in my mind. You may not think yourself an expert, but based on what you have produced here you have produced many very high quality university level papers.
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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #195 on: June 20, 2014, 05:55:21 PM »

I'm not quite sure what the line along the east of those islands represents. (it was there yesterday, so I think I can exclude cloudshadow)  My guess is a lead frozen over with thin ice which starts to loose snow cover before thicker ice. Am I correct? Is it of significance? Might it lead to earlier loosening of the landfast ice there?
« Last Edit: June 20, 2014, 06:33:33 PM by Andreas T »

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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #196 on: June 20, 2014, 06:27:10 PM »
Andreas T,

It is definitely a lead, can be seen on this ASAR image from June 19 2014:

 
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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #197 on: June 20, 2014, 07:00:53 PM »
Here is a 15m hi-res detail from May 27 where the lead, if existing, should be visible. At first I thought not, then it shows as some extra smooth ice a bit to the right of this island.

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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #198 on: June 20, 2014, 07:06:29 PM »
Wipneus,

With all respect, what does an image from May 27 2014 show?
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Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #199 on: June 20, 2014, 07:23:31 PM »
Frozen lead?

Or nothing perhaps.