The Invisible Protest

[etienne]

Interesting article in the Guardian
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/aug/02/everything-youve-been-told-is-a-lie-inside-the-wellness-to-facism-pipeline

Jane isn’t trying to blow the whistle on government corruption or organised crime: she wants to tell me about her old meditation group. The group had met happily for decades, she says, aligned around a shared interest in topics including “environmental issues, spiritual issues and alternative health”. It included several people whom Jane considered close friends, and she thought they were all on the same page. Then Covid came.

Jane spent most of the first Covid lockdowns in London. During that time, she caught Covid and was hospitalised, and it was then that she realised something significant had changed: a friend from the group got in touch while she was on the ward. “I had somebody I considered a real best friend of mine on the phone telling me, no, I ‘didn’t have Covid’,” she says. “She was absolutely adamant. And I said: ‘Well, why do you think I went into hospital?’”

The friend conceded that Jane was ill, but insisted it must be something other than Covid-19, because Covid wasn’t real. Jane’s hospital stay was thankfully short, but by the time she was sufficiently recovered and restrictions had lifted enough to allow her to rejoin her meditation group, things were very different.

“They have been moving generally to far-right views, bordering on racism, and really pro-Russian views, with the Ukraine war,” she says. “It started very much with health, with ‘Covid doesn’t exist’, anti-lockdown, anti-masks, and it became anti-everything: the BBC lie, don’t listen to them; follow what you see on the internet.”

[be cause]

and now there's a world full of 'Nevens'

[Bruce Steele]

Because, I don’t know how going after Neven helps. There are plenty of us liberals who would like to keep our freedom to make personal decisions without the meddling of government. For me the bottom line is whether one still retains the option of walking away.

[etienne]

Yes, this is why it is important to be careful with groups that tell you that "Everything you’ve been told before is a lie!"

[SeanAU]

Anyone relying upon The Guardian with the intent of avoiding lies is barking mad!

Anecdotes of Jane and her idiot friend/s is meaningless garbage being used by lying ideological anti-social crazies for their PR/Propaganda purposes to make themselves feel oh so smart and self-righteous - and to keep being paid.

That article and the ideas and motivations contained in it by the editorial team and the author driving it are pure shit. What is 'wrong with you' that you completely fail to see any of it?

Instead you come across as if you believe you've stumbled upon the secret elixir / pathway to Truth and Goodness ..... this is crazy stuff! 

While the resident moron can only see "a world full of Nevens" and The Guardian confirms this "fact"! ..... so he's not paranoid delusional and an hyperbolic insidious jackass troll?

Here's  a free tip: There is no "wellness to fascism pipeline" - there is YOUR LIE !
 

[Rodius]

Because, I don’t know how going after Neven helps. There are plenty of us liberals who would like to keep our freedom to make personal decisions without the meddling of government. For me the bottom line is whether one still retains the option of walking away.

We dont have the option to walk away... we never had that option.

For example... if the Govt decides to draft you, you will almost certainly be drafted.
If you decide to walk into the bush and live your life in the wild, and the Govt decides you cant do that, then you will be removed.
You cant even leave your own country without having permission from the Govt.

The idea of true freedom is an illusion.

Freedom means you can opt out of the system.... and we cant do that.

[Bruce Steele]

Rodius, I prefer to maintain my illusions. You’d be surprised to see how invisible you become while collecting acorns.
 It is possible to go off grid for power and water. It is possible to feed yourself. You aren’t much use to TPTB if you don’t consume. I don’t know what better protest exists.

[etienne]

I agree that not consuming is the way to go regarding climate change, but we have the dilemma of an invisible protest. When you are with friends, the one that went on holidays all over the world will have a lot more to talk about than the one who collected the acorns.

[sidd]

Re:  the one that went on holidays all over the world will have a lot more to talk about than the one who collected the acorns.

Au contraire. As Mr. Steele will tell you, one can talk at very great length about acorns and oaks and mast years and blights and droughts and climate and soil and waterways and squirrels and collection and treatment and preservation and recipes ...

sidd

[Neven]

How to blow up QAnon to satisfy people's desire for an enemy to fight, and thus distract them from what's really going on.

[Florifulgurator]

Anecdotes of Jane and her idiot friend/s is meaningless garbage being used by lying ideological anti-social crazies for their PR/Propaganda purposes to make themselves feel oh so smart and self-righteous - and to keep being paid.

I could tell a dozen similar anecdotes:

It's mostly elderly hippies, one of them a homeopathy freak, another a professional classical pianist and beloved German Rainbow Family elder (now dead, likely due to Covid without vaccination and a precondition). Video below. Plus several permaculturists or esoteric deep ecologists. Another one is an alternative health and wellness business guy with mostly rich and famous clients.

Many of the elderly males started as Greta haters (amazing how a little girl can generate such crazy reactions in wannabe grown-ups). My pianist ex friend became particularly vile. He also shared Facebook posts about the pedo cannibal Hillary Clinton. At the end of the video he rhapsodizes about 88...

From the QAnon cult I personally knew a German wannabe breatharian and ayahuasca shaman girl "Kess Zerogravity" with some followers and an impressively colorful Youtube channel. (One follower drove 800km from Switzerland for a one day/night visit.) She was living in the forest next to my place, but then moved away after a failed telepathy experiment with the landlord's bees. -- I got in her Email/Telegram writings quotes from Sidney Powell (a nutjob lawyer working for Trump). WTF I asked her, why would Germans be interested in Sidney Powell, except disinformation specialists like me? But her stuff got even worse, everything QAnon, so I cancelled her.  She is ex Jehovah witnesses cult, but not stupid (impressive masters thesis in physics) - that might explain a bit.

This phenomenon of sweet hippies turned stupid Nazi might be about freedom. (Or German Eigenständigkeit, as at the end of the video.) Sounds too grown-up for me. Or it might be about an urge to be different, a more childish urge. Methinks it is German Weltflucht (flight from world/reality) combined with sublimated cryptofascist theism (be it Hindu, Catholic, Jehovah's, ...).

In fact one of my "deep ecologist" friends wrote a German manifesto titled "Anders 1" (different) in 2016, containing some climate denial.
https://www.presse-board.de/anders-1-das-buch-fuer-menschen-die-aus-der-reihe-tanzen/
He later didn't get into QAnon stuff (afaik), but unsurprisingly became a rabid Covid Querdenker to such an extent that I had to defriend him on Facebook. (I do this on principle, to not contribute to the algorithmic amplification of disinformation. Late 2018 I also cancelled this very forum - but it is a different beast, so now I'm back...)

The video is from an event I had been personally invited to, not far from my place, but declined due to the danger of encountering too much Querdenker or QAnon madness. It is nevertheless one of the most poetic and beautiful moments musicaux imaginable. R.I.P.
 

[etienne]

Reply to Neven : I see it the other way around, QAnon, Neocons... But also similar people in Russia and China make sure that we don't talk of the important things like AGW, moderation in consumption, a planet with limits, racism... the prefer if we talk about the war, abortion and the paedophiles which are terrible things, but I believe overinflated compared to the other issues.

[Rodius]

I agree that not consuming is the way to go regarding climate change, but we have the dilemma of an invisible protest. When you are with friends, the one that went on holidays all over the world will have a lot more to talk about than the one who collected the acorns.

Ride a bicycle aorund the world would give many talking points....

[Florifulgurator]

Sorry for major post-moderation edits. No deception intended or done. Now really finished.

[The Walrus]

Because, I don’t know how going after Neven helps. There are plenty of us liberals who would like to keep our freedom to make personal decisions without the meddling of government. For me the bottom line is whether one still retains the option of walking away.

It is not just liberals who wish to keep their freedom, there is a host of different political ideologies wishing to do the same.  Much depends on the politics of the government.  The vast majority of people do not have the option of walking away.  As Rhodius stated, one cannot walk away from ones own country without government permission.  In the strictest sense, one actually can.  The problem occurs when trying to enter another country without the proper paperwork. 

The line between government meddling and the public good has become blurred.  The COVID-19 vaccine is one of them (of which I will not say anything more).  Some countries have mandatory military service.  Try to walk away from that.  Freedom of speech usually tops the list of inalienable rights, but say the wrong thing (even in many so-called free countries) can land the speaker in big trouble. 

Not everything is a lie.  But I echo etienne's post that those in power try to steer the conversation to what they want talked about.  Various social circles do the same.

[etienne]

Rodius, I prefer to maintain my illusions. You’d be surprised to see how invisible you become while collecting acorns.
 It is possible to go off grid for power and water. It is possible to feed yourself. You aren’t much use to TPTB if you don’t consume. I don’t know what better protest exists.

This comment gave me an Idea for a bumper sticker or a t-shirt (see below).

• Consume less - because it is what is required in the context of climate change
• Pay your debts - because you should only make debts if the future would be brighter, IMO this is impossible in the context of climate change. I believe that we spend now the money we will need in the future.
• Free yourself - freedom is required to consume less, is the best we can achieve

The interesting thing is that it is a non partisan slogan.

[etienne]

Another version.

[Rodius]

Rodius, I prefer to maintain my illusions. You’d be surprised to see how invisible you become while collecting acorns.
 It is possible to go off grid for power and water. It is possible to feed yourself. You aren’t much use to TPTB if you don’t consume. I don’t know what better protest exists.

This comment gave me an Idea for a bumper sticker or a t-shirt (see below).

• Consume less - because it is what is required in the context of climate change
• Pay your debts - because you should only make debts if the future would be brighter, IMO this is impossible in the context of climate change. I believe that we spend now the money we will need in the future.
• Free yourself - freedom is required to consume less, is the best we can achieve

The interesting thing is that it is a non partisan slogan.

I like this.
The debt one.. I would put in No Debt.
Only because it means less unnecessary consumption to begin with.

But regardless, this is really good

[Neven]

An 'invisible protest'? Is that because a visible protest, or any serious criticism of government, big corporations and mainstream media is immediately labelled as QAnon or some such?

[etienne]

No, it's because you can't show the car or the jacket you didn't buy, publish pictures of the holidays you didn't do. So, just like Bruce said, you become invisible (maybe I am abusing of his quote).
The only place where it would appear are statistics, the growth wouldn't go up as fast anymore, fossil fuels demands would go down...

QAnon won't stop growth, they want real males with real trucks and real guns for a real war in a real country that can be rebuilt with real concrete using real fossil fuels that will provide real cash to real neocons and real Russians.

Added : Real males are of course white and Christians (black, Latinos and natives are tolerated when shooting could happen or if it is needed to get richer and more powerful). A real leader is  a male, also white and Christian, but he has to be old (maybe 80 is too old, but I'm not sure).

Added 2 : below the no debt version

[etienne]

I didn't got much success with the "Invisible Protest" concept.

The best I got was a polite answer from a specific organization that said that they don't want to change the people but the rules of the system.

I answered that I am talking about a protest. If 10'000 people on the street in the Friday for Future context didn't help, maybe 10'000 people not shopping on Black Friday would have a bigger impact.

So I came up with a new idea for my bumper sticker (I still need a competent designer).

[Bruce Steele]

“The best I got was a polite answer from a specific organization that said that they don't want to change the people but the rules of the system.“
 And how is it the system would change if the people stayed the same ?
 The rules of the system are subject to change and economic interference of non participation is casting a vote in terms the system can understand.
 

[etienne]

Their idea is to make political pressure so that rules are defined to make it unavoidable to have a sustainable behavior.

Example are the obligation for carmakers to limit the CO2 emissions of the cars they sale in order to promote fuel efficiency and EVs; the obligation to clean wastewater before putting it back into the rivers or the ban of plastic straw and plates.

On some issues, it is quite easy to manage and it works, but here are 4 examples where it doesn't work.

In Luxembourg we have a "nature protection law" that requires at least 3000 EUR analysis before any destruction of a biotope outside of the urbanized areas so that the compensation to be paid can be agreed on. A biotope can be a tree, some wetlands, an hedge... so when we connected a village to the sewer system, we had to pay 10'000 EUR to compensate the biotopes that were destroyed.
One of the many problems is that 10'000 EUR is a lot for a normal person, but nothing for a real estate developer. So I believe that such laws can't survive very long.

Another example is the % of organic food served in schools. With the available budgets, something like 30% organic in value is possible. There are enough products like flour where the price of the organic and of the industrial version are close. They would want us to have 50% organic food, but who is going to pay ? The state doesn't want to increase its part and parents can't be asked more.  Or should kids only eat organic pasta al pomodoro ? Before COVID, 40% was possible. The cook in our school is very sensitive to ecological problems.

We also have the concept of "green events" https://www.greenevents.lu/ where subsidies are available for organizations fulfilling some requirements. I'm pretty sure that the administrative work for the subsidies costs more than the paid subsidies.

In Europe, fuel efficiency is defined per kg of vehicle. So the heavier the vehicle, the easiest it is to be efficient.

[Neven]

Chnaged the topic title as per etienne's request.

[etienne]

Here a new version.

• Minimalist is a requirement to end overconsumption, not to use more than we need
• Home made (also home grown) is always less carbon intensive if you also are a minimalist
• Second hand because you can't produce everything yourself. Of course you can't find everything in second hand.

I didn't want to use the words :

• Local, because there also are local a** h****, but I do buy local as much as possible (which is a quite subjective concept)
• Circular economy, because it often looks like green-washing

I could have used, but there wasn't enough space :

• Charities, because many do a good job. Unfortunately not all. I bring my kids and relatives used clothes at a local charity, and find it better than selling it on Internet
• Fair, because I think it is important. Unfortunately there are so many labels that I get lost. I mostly buy my fair trade products at charities (OXFAM, GEPA...)
• Organic, no need to talk about it, it is obvious
• Extend lifespan, because I find it ok to buy a new product if I use it until is is out of order. I most of the time buy new clothes, but when I'm done with it, they are in a shape that all charities would refuse.
  

Please don't believe I'm perfect, this is also somehow wishful thinking,

[zenith]

Rodius, I prefer to maintain my illusions. You’d be surprised to see how invisible you become while collecting acorns.
 It is possible to go off grid for power and water. It is possible to feed yourself. You aren’t much use to TPTB if you don’t consume. I don’t know what better protest exists.

these folks are having a great time. their 5 daughters would make most grown men look impotent given all the skills they learn. when the two eldest wanted their own space that meant building it themselves, beginning with milling the lumber.

Debt Free Off Grid Homestead - Our Freedom 35 Story - Gridlessness

[zenith]

how to teach your daughter grade 11 physics.  (he's an electrical engineer)

We made a 20 foot speargun and shot it through a brick wall

[zenith]

it's important that you have a friend/neighbour like dave to take care of the place when you're away. the last thing you need is overflowing batteries.

This is how I take care of things while Jeff and the girls are away.

[etienne]

Pretty cool.

Looks like they didn't suffer of the forest fires. They are in British Columbia.

https://www.gridlessness.com/
https://www.facebook.com/Gridlessness/

[zenith]

from what i can gather they're somewhere north of prince george, b.c. (likely around a 1 hour drive from the city) and the fires are certainly around them this year. a few years ago they dug a giant hole to collect water for the gardens, the animals, to flood an outdoor ice hockey rink (hosers) and in case of forest fires.

What does it take to make an Off Grid Hockey Rink?

[kassy]

You are not very invisible with a YT channel, or off grid? Nice dream but how many could actually make it work. And how much still goes in in resources? Solar, propane back up. All kinds of other things. It´s a popular genre but not a very good protest.

[zenith]

it's mostly a mindset and the skillset that are relevant. industrial civilization in any form isn't sustainable. when it all goes sideways would you bet on kassy or these girls? lmao.

[zenith]

the thing is that they're demonstrating how to have a foot in both worlds... realistically, and they're not pretending otherwise.
OFF GRID HOMESTEAD Tour - We're Only 59% Off Grid!?

[zenith]

when push comes to shove esau easily outlives jacob.

[kassy]

it's mostly a mindset and the skillset that are relevant. industrial civilization in any form isn't sustainable. when it all goes sideways would you bet on kassy or these girls? lmao.

When it all goes sideways you will have other problems then betting on other people.

Their advantage should be being away from the crowds. And being self sufficient. But are they? I don´t know because i have not watched the video but if it all goes sideways then the YT add revenue is gone and you cannot buy replacement parts or new screws. Etc.

[sidd]

Re: it all goes sideways

What does that involve? No electric, no water, no telecom ? In that event i would bet on a rural family to survive against an urban one.

More generally, the best defense against collapse is your neighbours. What i find amazing is that urban dwellers know less about their neighbours living close by, compared to country folk who know all their neighbours well though the nearest might be half a mile away. And the latter help each other out to a much greater extent.

sidd

[zenith]

I don´t know because i have not watched the video

don't let that stop you from commenting though.

regardless, they're out there debt free having a great time, non-stop adventures.
nobody survives a nuclear war, short of that there are people that have skills and know-how out there.

[kassy]

regardless, they're out there debt free having a great time, non-stop adventures.

Yeah and that is good. But it is not something everyone can go do.

Then there is the question of how completely off grid people actually are. So assuming there are no actual outside inputs how are you going to replace things once they runs out? What if you run out of nails or screws? Or when parts of equipment break that you cannot easily replace?

If you can live on self grown food the year around, nice. But how do you pay for the extra things you need? There must be some income stream for that. (So remember to like and subscribe).

Most of us can buy less. Especially less useless crap and throwaway fashion but i am not sure stickers are the best way to communicate that.

[zenith]

their youtube channel isn't very big at all, they only post a couple videos a month. if you watched the first video you wouldn't be asking the questions you are and i posted another video where he calculates they're only 59% off grid. they know the difference between living in a tent off the land and what they have built now far better than you do.

why am i even responding to this? the point is there are people that have learned to engage with the system on their terms and know what life would actually be like without the system. of course not everyone can do this, most people don't have the inclination or skills, but some people do do it.

if everything broke down and they eventually had to abandon their property they'd likely become nomadic, same as it ever was. the thing is people like that may pull it off.

[SteveMDFP]

Re: it all goes sideways
...
More generally, the best defense against collapse is your neighbours. What i find amazing is that urban dwellers know less about their neighbours living close by, compared to country folk who know all their neighbours well though the nearest might be half a mile away. And the latter help each other out to a much greater extent.

Totally agree.  Hardly anyone has the broad and deep skilll set to manage alone.    But many people have skills of value.  A small but cohesive group can do better than almost anyone solo.

[etienne]

If you are already half off grid, you will be better in case of a grid collapse. Even if it doesn't save you, it helps. It's why I always recommend to have a wood stove in an house, but engineers created stoves that need electricity to work. Too bad for the ones who bought it.

Spare parts are a temporary issue because it won't take so much time to get the competences back. Materials might get expensive, but basic products should be available at least long enough until alternative are available. If the quad wouldn't be available, they'll use the horse. The problem is worse for the people going to Mars because of the delivery times.

There are always more people acting like them. My wife used to look at the youtube chanel of Germans living in Sweden.

What worries me more is climate change because disasters can wipe out years of hard work to build up the infrastructure.

[kassy]

why am i even responding to this? the point is there are people that have learned to engage with the system on their terms and know what life would actually be like without the system. of course not everyone can do this, most people don't have the inclination or skills, but some people do do it.

Yes but that i was trying to point out. It is pretty cool if you can pull it off. But it is not a general protest. Nice videos but they work so well because for most it shows something they dream about.

[Bruce Steele]

The really hard part of subsistence farming is the fact you can feed yourself but you can’t hardly afford to buy anything. I have a handwritten autobiography from a great grandfather who grew up post civil war on the prairies of Northern Iowa. They chopped and hauled wood to town for some spending money.
Everyone else who lived nearby supplied for the their own needs and selling things like eggs or vegetables didn’t work because the distance to towns where one might sell such things was too far on muddy rutted wagon paths.
 They lived on almost zero hydrocarbons however. So the off grid , feed yourselves, drop out of society model means something most people would associate with poverty. But those people living that lifestyle by choice I doubt pity themselves. Maybe you still need to sell wood but you probably have to sell something. A new hoe will always be cheaper than a rototiller or a tractor.  Problem is so few people can say they have ever given a hoe a whole summer of work. So practice needed.
 Won’t work everywhere.
 Like Etienne said practice might make you more secure in a true collapse scenario but unlike Sidd or Steve, I think in very densely populated areas a survival plan with very small numbers, lots of stored dry crops and a deep hole might be more what’s needed.
 

[zenith]

why am i even responding to this? the point is there are people that have learned to engage with the system on their terms and know what life would actually be like without the system. of course not everyone can do this, most people don't have the inclination or skills, but some people do do it.

Yes but that i was trying to point out. It is pretty cool if you can pull it off. But it is not a general protest. Nice videos but they work so well because for most it shows something they dream about.

who said anything about a general protest? this all or nothing thinking is a logical fallacy. the videos may be a dream for most but for a few they may be inspiration. obviously you're not going to do anything like that but you're not everybody.

[Rodius]

The above conversation is why I think that as the climate and environment gets worse, it will be the modern countries that will collapse first and hardest.

Poorer countries have closer communities (usually), and grow a lot of their own food, they will be mostly fine and, to me, far better off than people in a collapsing rich country.

For example, I lived in Samoa for a couple of years, in a village, as a villager. (Only white person for miles... the joke was that I could never break the law because EVERYONE knew where I lived.) Anyway, while most people worked and had a car (but couldnt afford the petrol lol), if the outside world fell apart, they will be just fine. They already have gardens, know how ot garden, have chickens, pigs, everything is basically set up already.

The only things that would change would be not driving cars, no electricity, and adapting to older ways that are already known.

It really wouldnt be a huge drama after six odd months while things adapted to the new way of doing thing.

Now, try doing that in a city or rich world town... when supermarkets go empty, it will be a nightmare situation with unpleasant consequences.

[KiwiGriff]

yeah I am off the grid for the supply of electricity, water and disposal of waste   grow or catch  most of my   food and spend little on consumer goods .
Easy to do here as I do not need to spend energy in heating or cooling.
Northlands Subtropical  maritime climate  means I can grow food even in winter .
I do it because it is an interesting challenge that suits my aesthetic not for any protest or because of climate change. 
It would be lots harder in different  climates with more extremes .

[sidd]

Re: in very densely populated areas a survival plan with very small numbers

Wait, a densely populated area has very large numbers, i guess i dont understand this.

sidd

[etienne]

[...]

who said anything about a general protest? this all or nothing thinking is a logical fallacy. the videos may be a dream for most but for a few they may be inspiration. obviously you're not going to do anything like that but you're not everybody.

Reducing your consumption, no mortgage... is a protest. Maybe not a conscious one, but he says himself that he feels free now that he has quit his job and lives with a lot less. Breaking your chains, even virtual ones, is a protest. Of course in this case, it is not because of AGW, but it still against the consumption society that fuels AGW. Against Apartheid, one of the most efficient action was the boycott.
That guys gives many people ideas, everybody won't go as far, but each person growing some vegetables is helping, even if these are only few tomatoes on the balcony. Once you grow your own vegetables, you know how good they can taste, and you pay more attention at what you buy.
In Europe, you also have communities trying to live together with a low carbon path, for example https://www.prolongomaif.ch/ or https://www.lanzadelvasto.com/en/action/the-ark/

[kassy]

who said anything about a general protest? this all or nothing thinking is a logical fallacy. the videos may be a dream for most but for a few they may be inspiration. obviously you're not going to do anything like that but you're not everybody.

Well the thread is about protest and Etienne was listing some general things people can easily do.
Going to live off grid is something that needs way more preparation then deciding to buy less throwaway fashion or dedicating part of the garden to growing your own food.

Certain terms have very fuzzy meanings like Net Zero. It is easy to go Net Zero on some chosen points but then you are not Net Zero in the total carbon accounting which is what matters if you really want to close the loop.

Off Grid is also used like that. Now of course there are gradations but running a YT channel means you are on another grid anyway.

And indeed, i am only me not everybody.

How are your off grid plans coming along? Have you picked an area to look for land? Do you have enough savings to buy it, build on it and pay yourself the first year(s)? Etc.

[zenith]

there are many ways people stage their own personal protest. in their case they found a job and mortgage counterproductive and soul-deadening so they "took the power back" and did things on their terms. these days they have starlink but they're aware of the difference in ways you're not as they started in a tent with 5 young kids.

other people live on sailboats, some buy extremely inexpensive, dilapidated, places in northern italy and fix them up, others move to dying little prairie towns and buy cheaper property. the point is there are plenty of ways to get out from under "the man" and live more independently.

don't worry about me, i'm old and always lived on the fringe, and between climate change and nuclear war i don't see much future in any of it but for those looking for something else there are options. it's about how one wants to live between now and then, same as ever.