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uniquorn

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #100 on: April 08, 2024, 07:28:01 PM »
edit: Never We haven't seen first year ice over the pole since 2007-8. It looks like it will be close this season.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2024, 12:40:31 PM by uniquorn »

Paul

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #101 on: April 09, 2024, 12:38:28 AM »
I might be mistaken but didn't 2008 or 2009 had first year ice over the pole and I'll be surprised if 2021 didn't had first year ice considering the severe retreat in the previous melt season. One thing you would say though, it is somewhat protected by multi year ice so I'm certainly not expecting any ice free north pole this year but diffused ice is certainly a possibility.

Iceburn

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #102 on: April 09, 2024, 12:57:10 AM »
A lot of the ice on the Atlantic side is in a state but the prospect of no ice in the pole is low for now. Depends on how much heat gets up there this Summer but I'd expect the usual where some places melt more than normal probably Atlantic side and some less probably Siberian side.

Michael Hauber

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #103 on: April 09, 2024, 02:02:34 AM »
Early 2008 had first year ice over the north pole, leading to speculation that the north pole may be ice free that summer.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13779-north-pole-could-be-ice-free-in-2008/
Climate change:  Prepare for the worst, hope for the best, expect the middle.

oren

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #104 on: April 09, 2024, 05:55:19 AM »
Never seen first year ice over the pole. It looks like it will be close this season.
Thanks for updating the ice age animation. The ice setup this year within the Arctic ocean is really bad, it was heavily skewed towards the Atlantic following the 2023 melting season, and the winter only made the problem worse, with a huge chunk of old ice having been exported. This makes 2024 vulnerable, should we get serious melting weather, and especially if we get a dipole. The whole ESS is FYI only all the way to the pole, and to recall the CAA was also hard hit during the previous melting season. The only saving grace is that there's finally an old ice arm extending through most of the Beaufort, though its location is quite southerly and I doubt it can hold long enough to protect the FYI behind it throughout the season.
Of course, we could get good weather and the setup will remain just a setup, and then the Arctic will have dodged a cannonball again as it did in 2017.

binntho

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #105 on: April 09, 2024, 08:35:44 AM »
Uniquorn, just to be clear: You may be much more polite than I am but you agree with the general drift of my comment?
« Last Edit: April 09, 2024, 10:45:00 AM by binntho »
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Niall Dollard

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #106 on: April 09, 2024, 10:57:17 AM »
A significant amount of 3-4 yr old ice went down the Fram in Jan and Feb.

Everything east of Cape Morris Jesup went down. Only consolation is the Nares was blocked this year and stabilised.things west.

Looking at the area north of Cape MJ to the pole. It looks like as the older ice moved south it created gaps given rise to the speckles of dark blue/new ice which formed only this year and wont be much more than 1.5m and will struggle to survive.

oren

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #107 on: April 09, 2024, 11:05:00 AM »
While the Lincoln sea looks good at this stage, I expect the usual opening of Nares in early June (assuming the arch doesn't break up prematurely) will help clear the Lincoln by the end of the melting season, so that's another large chunk of very old ice that is highly vulnerable.

Paul

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #108 on: April 09, 2024, 11:39:21 AM »
Never seen first year ice over the pole. It looks like it will be close this season.
Thanks for updating the ice age animation. The ice setup this year within the Arctic ocean is really bad, it was heavily skewed towards the Atlantic following the 2023 melting season, and the winter only made the problem worse, with a huge chunk of old ice having been exported. This makes 2024 vulnerable, should we get serious melting weather, and especially if we get a dipole. The whole ESS is FYI only all the way to the pole, and to recall the CAA was also hard hit during the previous melting season. The only saving grace is that there's finally an old ice arm extending through most of the Beaufort, though its location is quite southerly and I doubt it can hold long enough to protect the FYI behind it throughout the season.
Of course, we could get good weather and the setup will remain just a setup, and then the Arctic will have dodged a cannonball again as it did in 2017.

In all honesty, going by the link in Michael's post regarding 2008, I thought that looked alot worse than it does now.

I understand why the words "thin" get used for first year ice but it can also be a bit misleading as it still grows up to near 2 metres thick I believe so hardly going to melt overnight and some first year ice can survive a melting season especially at the higher latitudes.

The volume anomalies in comparison to the last 10 years, the Siberian Arctic ice is slightly thicker(notably that area where there is some multi year ice which I assume is the stuff that survived in the Laptev in 2022 and 2023) however the Beaufort and the area in particular to the north of the CAA is thinner so that will be an area of interest come September, probably more for ice condition than melt.

binntho

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #109 on: April 09, 2024, 11:56:45 AM »
I understand why the words "thin" get used for first year ice but it can also be a bit misleading as it still grows up to near 2 metres thick I believe so hardly going to melt overnight and some first year ice can survive a melting season especially at the higher latitudes.

Presumably a substantial chunk of FYI survives every year to become 2YI.

As for thickness, buoy data from uniquorn from a few weeks back showed surprisingly thin FYI very close to the pole. Apparently a thick (60cm+?) layer of snow settled on the ice very early on and managed to keep it both "warm" and thin through the winter.
because a thing is eloquently expressed it should not be taken to be as necessarily true
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Niall Dollard

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #110 on: April 09, 2024, 12:05:37 PM »
@Binntho

See this post earlier upthread.

Or the frequent 70cm reading is an error reading ?

Yes - Unfortunately the top sounder can get "frosted up" in mid winter.

The snow layer was ~30 cm thick the last time the sounder was ice free for an extended period. There's a hint it might have reached 40 cm by mid February.

binntho

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #111 on: April 09, 2024, 12:34:47 PM »
@Binntho

See this post earlier upthread.

Or the frequent 70cm reading is an error reading ?

Yes - Unfortunately the top sounder can get "frosted up" in mid winter.

The snow layer was ~30 cm thick the last time the sounder was ice free for an extended period. There's a hint it might have reached 40 cm by mid February.
Thanks, I had forgottten that. So the snow is not so thick after all, but the effects are the same - our 2024 FYI is both hot and thin. I wish I was!
because a thing is eloquently expressed it should not be taken to be as necessarily true
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uniquorn

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #112 on: April 09, 2024, 12:37:23 PM »
I might be mistaken but didn't 2008 or 2009 had first year ice over the pole and I'll be surprised if 2021 didn't had first year ice considering the severe retreat in the previous melt season. One thing you would say though, it is somewhat protected by multi year ice so I'm certainly not expecting any ice free north pole this year but diffused ice is certainly a possibility.

Thanks for the correction, I will amend the post. 2007-8 did have FYI over the pole with significantly more MYI in reserve. I remember 2021 didn't quite make it.

Paul

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #113 on: April 09, 2024, 03:04:30 PM »
I might be mistaken but didn't 2008 or 2009 had first year ice over the pole and I'll be surprised if 2021 didn't had first year ice considering the severe retreat in the previous melt season. One thing you would say though, it is somewhat protected by multi year ice so I'm certainly not expecting any ice free north pole this year but diffused ice is certainly a possibility.

Thanks for the correction, I will amend the post. 2007-8 did have FYI over the pole with significantly more MYI in reserve. I remember 2021 didn't quite make it.

I meant at the start of the melting season and not at the end. Point being FYI over or near the pole is not totally unprecedented.

uniquorn

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #114 on: April 09, 2024, 09:12:55 PM »
Some thermistor buoy thicknesses from Meereisportal

T103 ice thickness 1.95m, freeboard: 0.3m, snow/scattering layer: 0.05m, thermistor 34 at surface, level second year-ice
thickened to 2.18m, at least 10cm snow

T105
ice thickness: 0.98m, freeboard 0.06m, scattering layer: 0.01m, thermistor 28 at surface, level first-year ice
thickened to 1.62m possibly 10cm snow

T106
ice thickness 1.52m, freeboard: 0.2m, snow/cattering layer: 0.03m, thermistor 29 at surface, level second year-ice
thickened to 1.8m, 18cm snow

T114
Snow depth: 0.17 m  Ice thickness: 0.73 m  Ice freeboard: 0.045 m  Last dataset early feb2024
thickened to 1.02m on reaching Fram Strait

uniquorn

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #115 on: April 09, 2024, 09:15:16 PM »
Drift tracks for above

Niall Dollard

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #116 on: April 09, 2024, 10:48:49 PM »
Uniquorn, those thicknesses look a bit healthier than I would have thought looking at the Ease-Grid chart at the end of March (and all that alleged FYI).

The Cryosat-2/SMOS chart (courtesy Zach Labe) for the end of March looks pretty thick towards the pole 2.5m +

Although in contrast, the Beaufort looks thin on that chart.  :(

Andy Hultgren

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #117 on: April 10, 2024, 12:30:24 AM »
I don't really know the history -- does the Beaufort typically start to break up this early in the year? (Am I even interpreting the imagery correctly?)

[Edit: looking through past imagery it looks like this isn't entirely atypical for this region in recent years.]
« Last Edit: April 10, 2024, 12:35:55 AM by Andy Hultgren »

Niall Dollard

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #118 on: April 10, 2024, 12:51:27 AM »
Yes in spring you will often notice successive breakoffs in the Amundsen Gulf.

Some years this can accelerate through much of the eastern Beaufort. 2016 was a good example when huge cracks propagated right up along the western edge of the CAA all the way to Ellesmere. The Beaufort continued to break up then through May and ultimately the ice was in a very bad state by early Sept that year.

Not necessarily saying this will happen this year but a lot depends on how much MYI there remains in the Beaufort this year. And by the looks of things, not a lot.

uniquorn

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #119 on: April 10, 2024, 12:14:36 PM »
SIMB3 2023A was deployed at 78.59N -176.46 on aug14 and bottom melted to 64cm by sep25 (79.78N,-177.5), since then it thickened to 164cm, snow depth 35cm, quite deep.

Likely that FYI formed further south will have thickened more rapidly but not yet exceeded that thickness unless ridged, thick snow not helpful in winter but good as we enter the melting season.

1. SIMB3 2023A data
2. Deployment, minimum thickness and present locations
3. Comparison of ice age and CS2SMOS thickness, mar25-31
4. latest CS2SMOS thickness apr1-7

Andy Hultgren

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #120 on: April 11, 2024, 09:41:18 AM »
@Niall thank you, very helpful context. And yes, depending on MYI this season doesn't look like a very good position to be in. :(

uniquorn

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #121 on: April 11, 2024, 04:03:09 PM »
https://www.cryosphereinnovation.com/data

SIMB3 Beaufort buoys max thickness 1.6m

Niall Dollard

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #122 on: April 13, 2024, 01:49:47 PM »
Given its relatively low latitude, I would be surprised to see much of that 1.6m ice surviving a summer in the Beaufort.

Meanwhile in central Alaska the Nenana Ice Classic is in full swing. Following a cold winter there (one of the few in the NH) the ice is still very thick into early April. I would think we will likelyhave a late break-up this year. Into May.

Not sure if the same could be said for the Mackenzie. Early Mackenzie break--up and removal of snow cover can speed up ice melt in the Beaufort.

johnm33

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #123 on: April 13, 2024, 02:42:53 PM »
First two imaes from Polar Python, the Beaufort Gyre is becoming more obvious as the ice gets entrained in it, I susect it's going to increase in effect for a few days at least. Despite movement of lows/highs the general drift from the direction of Bering to Fram continues, it looks like a surge of Atl. waters have accelerated movement on the Siberian side, but it could be explained equally well by Pacific waters coming in on the Siberian side via the trough near Wrangel [that would help drive the gyre too].
A sea change took place in the Nordic seas with the incoming Atl. waters having a significantly different kinetic energy than the previous body. It is still exerting pressure on the south side of Fram though not making much progress on the surface, it does seem to be forcing it's way in at depth and has accelerated the flow out through Nares, which given the slightly warming flow on the Greenland side near Baffin suggests the possibility of a increasing current there too.

uniquorn

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #124 on: April 13, 2024, 04:02:23 PM »
Given its relatively low latitude, I would be surprised to see much of that 1.6m ice surviving a summer in the Beaufort.
Me too, though some may drift far enough north to survive.

Drift and thickness for the SIMB3 2023 buoys closer to the Atlantic side.

@johnm33 it would be helpful to include the wind component of ice drift

johnm33

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #125 on: April 13, 2024, 05:01:54 PM »

Quote
@johnm33 it would be helpful to include the wind component of ice drift
I wish, but it's too technical for me, having it's direction is one thing but it's impact on ice movement depends on duration, various qualities of the ice's profiles and even then it, the ice, moves at an angle to it.  That said I'm mostly interested in the more obvious changes in the ocean a it transitions to being part of the worlds circulation system.

gerontocrat

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #126 on: April 15, 2024, 08:39:18 PM »
The Arctic Ocean is looking cold.
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be cause

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #127 on: April 16, 2024, 01:23:57 AM »
''The Arctic Ocean is looking cold.''    ..  How dare it !
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John_the_Younger

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #128 on: April 16, 2024, 02:22:54 AM »
I was thinking a dip off Banks Island might be refreshing 🤪

HapHazard

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #129 on: April 16, 2024, 03:52:27 AM »
I was thinking a dip off Banks Island might be refreshing 🤪
I went for a dip at Tuktoyaktuk 2 years ago, can confirm it's refreshing. I'll be heading back up there this summer, just to make sure it wasn't a fluke.  ;)

On a more serious note, it looks like the ice pack has been moving pretty much as a whole towards Fram for the last while, albeit not at an extreme pace, I don't think.
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Pavel

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #130 on: April 16, 2024, 05:40:00 AM »
The Arctic Ocean is looking cold.
Yes, but the land is looking warm. At this time of year the rapid land snow loss is more important for the melting season

binntho

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #131 on: April 16, 2024, 09:55:41 AM »

Quote
@johnm33 it would be helpful to include the wind component of ice drift
I wish, but it's too technical for me, having it's direction is one thing but it's impact on ice movement depends on duration, various qualities of the ice's profiles and even then it, the ice, moves at an angle to it.  That said I'm mostly interested in the more obvious changes in the ocean a it transitions to being part of the worlds circulation system.
But spouting pseudoscientific nonsense seems well within your techical capabilities. You are polluting the forum, and I am surprised that the moderator(s) let it pass.
because a thing is eloquently expressed it should not be taken to be as necessarily true
St. Augustine, Confessions V, 6

johnm33

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #132 on: April 16, 2024, 10:31:01 AM »
"pseudoscientific nonsense" I thought this was a classic, whereas I'm just saying what I see, hardly 'science' at all.

Edit: parts removed
« Last Edit: April 16, 2024, 02:21:19 PM by oren »

oren

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #133 on: April 16, 2024, 02:20:31 PM »
The moderator is living in an idiot country, has moved house yesterday, and is generally busier these days.
However, this doesn't make this thread into a free for all (yet).
Binntho, I generally agree with your sentiment that John's insistence that everything has to do with the tides and surges of oceanic water is not based on a solid foundation. It's not my specialty though, so I tread carefully. In any case, please use better language when criticizing, and in bad cases best use "report to moderator" rather than post within the thread.
John, please try to use more supporting evidence when repeating arguments that ascribe reasons to what we can see.
And name calling cannot stand (yet, as long as I am here).

uniquorn

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #134 on: April 16, 2024, 04:25:45 PM »
First two imaes from Polar Python, the Beaufort Gyre is becoming more obvious as the ice gets entrained in it, I susect it's going to increase in effect for a few days at least. Despite movement of lows/highs the general drift from the direction of Bering to Fram continues, it looks like a surge of Atl. waters have accelerated movement on the Siberian side, but it could be explained equally well by Pacific waters coming in on the Siberian side via the trough near Wrangel [that would help drive the gyre too].
A sea change took place in the Nordic seas with the incoming Atl. waters having a significantly different kinetic energy than the previous body. It is still exerting pressure on the south side of Fram though not making much progress on the surface, it does seem to be forcing it's way in at depth and has accelerated the flow out through Nares, which given the slightly warming flow on the Greenland side near Baffin suggests the possibility of a increasing current there too.

I welcome comments from an oceanic perspective. Every year there are numerous predictions based on atmospheric weather forecasts, rarely subjected to any later analysis. Nowhere above is there a mention of tides, it's more about pressure.

Arctic sea ice circulation and drift speed: Decadal trends and ocean currents

R. Kwok, G. Spreen, S. Pang
First published: 09 April 2013
https://doi.org/10.1002/jgrc.20191

From the conclusion:
Quote
[61] The mean ocean current (c) derived from a linear model exhibits a persistent drift from Siberia to the Fram Strait, an inflow north of the Bering Strait, and the westward flow along coastal Alaska. We found this pattern in all decadal intervals, and during summer and winter. As the mean current includes only that portion of the ice motion that is constant and not linearly related to the geostrophic wind, it contains only a fraction of the energy in the geostrophic current from satellite-derived dynamic topography. The linear drift pattern during both the winter and summer is suggestive of the tilt of the Arctic Ocean between the Pacific and Atlantic Ocean.

[62] While a large fraction of the variance in sea ice motion is explained by the wind on the short term (days), the winds are less successful in explaining the longer-term (months to years) average ice motion. The longer time-scale ice motion and drift trends presented here have provided a coherent geophysical picture and insight into the multidecadal changes in the circulation the ice cover (e.g., strengthening of the Beaufort Gyre and Transpolar Drift), the character of ice drift of a mechanically weaker ice cover as a result of the widespread thinning in the past decade, and estimates of the mean ocean current.
my emphasis

uniquorn

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #135 on: April 16, 2024, 09:04:04 PM »
some surges maybe more acceptable than others

That ice export from the Barents sea to the Fram strait in 2003 coincided with the beginning of a surge of Atlantic water into the Barents sea and European side of the Arctic ocean. The surge of warm salty Atlantic water was a key to the decline in Arctic ice later in that decade.

Yes, the winds and weather that exported ice also imported Atlantic water into the Barents sea.

uniquorn

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #136 on: April 17, 2024, 12:24:32 PM »
Barents sea ice area ready for a fall, probably not as steep as Okhotsk.

https://sites.google.com/view/sea-ice/startseite
nullschool forecast apr22  ;)

binntho

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #137 on: April 17, 2024, 01:36:32 PM »
some surges maybe more acceptable than others

That ice export from the Barents sea to the Fram strait in 2003 coincided with the beginning of a surge of Atlantic water into the Barents sea and European side of the Arctic ocean. The surge of warm salty Atlantic water was a key to the decline in Arctic ice later in that decade.

Yes, the winds and weather that exported ice also imported Atlantic water into the Barents sea.

And suddenly everybody can claim surges of water going here and there without so much a shred of evidence!

I have on previous occasions pointed out that the Arctic ocean is a watery body of extreme turpitude. Hardly anything moves in there, the few currents are either miniscule or move so slowly as to be easily overtaken by an arthritic tortoise. Only an extremely small fraction of the waters of the Arctic ocean are in movement at any one time. This is not to say that there is no movement - there is, and can have effects in some very localized places, as determined primarily by bathymetry.

Movement of ice on the surface is primarily caused by wind. Even in the Fram strait, where there are two very distincts currents moving into and away from the Arctic ocean, the wind can reverse the flow of ice for days on end.

And the tidal effect so far north is also absolutely miniscule as can easily be seen on maps of such things. During one day the tides might move any given floe one hundred meters first one way and then the other. No surges, no large movements of water from one are to another.

The numbers are easy to find. The Fram strait current, which is by far the fastest of any current in the Arctic, has been clocked at 24cm/s, or 0.86 km/h - Zimmerframe speed.

And the total volume entering and leaving the entire Arctic Ocean is around 10 Sverdrup each way, or 10 million cubic meters per second. Looks imressive, but at 0.01 Km3 per second, it only clocks in at just over 300.000 km3 per year, compared with the total volume of the Arctic at 18,000,000 km3.

In other words, 1% of the volume of the Arctic ocean enters each year, and the same amount leaves again.

As for tidal movement, according the article Arctic tidal current atlas by far the biggest tidal effect of 20cm/s was in the Nares strait (as expected - and not really in the Arctic Ocean itself). A more typical Arctic Ocean figure is around 1cm/s. Note that this is maximum speed, and reverses itself every 6 hours. So for our ice floe, 6 hours at 1cm/s is 100 meters one way, and then 100 meters the other way, twice daily!
« Last Edit: April 17, 2024, 01:47:30 PM by oren »
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John_the_Younger

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #138 on: April 17, 2024, 06:12:48 PM »
Quote
Barents sea ice area ready for a fall, probably not as steep as Okhotsk.
Maybe, maybe not!  2021's data shows a 'fall off the cliff' decline, and starting a month earlier.  But I guess I'd agree with the "probably [> 50% chance] not as steep as Okhotsk" given that most years the decline in the Barentsz is not as fast as what happened in the Okhotsk this year.
 :)

John_the_Younger

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #139 on: April 17, 2024, 06:49:48 PM »
Thanks, binntho, for your information. 

Some years, we know (from an A-Team gif some years ago) ice near the North Pole reaches Fram Strait in six months, a distance of nearly 800 km - so it moved, on average, a bit more than 4 km/day.

What moves the ice? Choices include wind, currents, tides, coriolis effect, aliens; I suspect wind and currents dominate.  If wind is a net neutral (i.e., random), that leaves currents.  Am I missing something (or use bad assumptions)?

nadir

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #140 on: April 17, 2024, 08:18:33 PM »
Wind is not a net-neutral for sure.

About NH snow cover: it’s very early for snow cover or lack thereof to have any effect or correlation with the coming melting season. But thawing in Canada is about a week or two early and if this continues into Northern Canada in May we may have a repeat of last year set-up.

Phil.

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #141 on: April 18, 2024, 01:01:24 AM »

Freegrass

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #142 on: April 18, 2024, 01:13:00 AM »
What moves the ice? Choices include wind, currents, tides, coriolis effect, aliens; I suspect wind and currents dominate.  If wind is a net neutral (i.e., random), that leaves currents.  Am I missing something (or use bad assumptions)?
A butterfly in China can move the ice...
90% of the world is religious, but somehow "love thy neighbour" became "fuck thy neighbours", if they don't agree with your point of view.

WTF happened?

kassy

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #143 on: April 18, 2024, 06:25:04 PM »
Tides do have an effect. See:
The effects of tides on the water mass mixing and sea ice in the Arctic Ocean

But most of that is below the ice. As the melting season is mostly about the developments on the surface and our current info on tides doesn´t tell us much about that then that sort of analysis does not belong here. If there is no data on the relative surges then there is no way to resolve it anyway and it is all speculation.
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

Freegrass

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #144 on: April 19, 2024, 03:17:13 PM »
What happened here? I can't remember seeing this before.
But then again, we've never had this great animation before.

Is this normal? I don't think so.
It's weak ice now behind those islands, ready to melt quickly.
90% of the world is religious, but somehow "love thy neighbour" became "fuck thy neighbours", if they don't agree with your point of view.

WTF happened?

John_the_Younger

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #145 on: April 19, 2024, 06:26:02 PM »
Freegrass, that looks like "preparations" for an early opening of the Northern Sea Route to me. I don't think this is as common as our seeing similar long leads developing and closing just north of the Canadian Arctic Archipelago (CAA) during the freezing season.  And I think a big difference between the two regions is that Arctic ice generally flows from the Siberian Sea and towards the CAA; leads near Russia will tend to be covered with first year ice whereas leads north of Canada tend to be closed by compressive forces (thus ridges and piled up floes). 

jdallen

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #146 on: April 19, 2024, 06:36:01 PM »
What happened here? I can't remember seeing this before.
But then again, we've never had this great animation before.

Is this normal? I don't think so.
It's weak ice now behind those islands, ready to melt quickly.
I’ve seen patterns like that before in the ESS and Laptev.  It’s not that unusual.  The only thing unusual might be the timing, which may be early.  I’ll have to check dates.

My concerns right now are much more about the general thinness of the pack as a whole, and, if weather continues to hammer snow cover and possibly produce an early appearance of melt ponds.

More later.
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Jim Hunt

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #147 on: April 20, 2024, 12:07:15 PM »
What happened here? I can't remember seeing this before.

From April 2020:

https://go.nasa.gov/3U8Fcrb
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Bardian

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #148 on: April 20, 2024, 03:21:02 PM »
Atlantic side will receive some beating  coming days, too late for ice to recover from this. Late April is very unusual time for storm

https://zoom.earth/maps/wind-gusts/#view=79.2,46.2,4z/date=2024-04-22,08:00,+2/model=icon

morganism

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Re: The 2024 melting season
« Reply #149 on: April 21, 2024, 01:25:01 AM »
RU also has "chipper" ice breakers to open up the shipping lanes early. dont know if they are using them right now tho.)