Support the Arctic Sea Ice Forum and Blog

Author Topic: Tesla glory/failure  (Read 31696 times)

Archimid

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1568
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 70
  • Likes Given: 94
Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1100 on: January 18, 2019, 05:23:02 PM »
Who wr
Quote
"This quarter will hopefully allow us, with great difficulty, effort and some luck, to target a tiny profit," he wrote.

doesn't sound good.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46919489

Who wrote that? I can’t find that in the official comm or the linked article.

edit: Nevermind. It’s in the letter. They are talking about 18Q4. For I second I thought they were talking about 19Q1
« Last Edit: January 18, 2019, 05:29:48 PM by Archimid »
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

TerryM

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 4224
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 58
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1101 on: January 18, 2019, 09:24:27 PM »
The fundamental laws of business, finance, and economics have not yet been repealed.

$920M convertible bonds still due in March?

Paid in cash if stock under ~$360/share?

Nice looking car though.


The due date is March 1st. the amount is $920Million, and the borrowers will demand cash, unless TSLA is trading above $359.87.

30 business days from today is when the rubber meets the road.

When 9% of Elon's workforce was fired last June he stated:
"I also want to emphasize that we are making this hard decision now so that we never have to do this again."


One month ago today Elon revealed progress on his boring project 'neath the streets of LA. It wasn't well received, as Elon noted "We kind of ran out of time". Others weren't so kind.

Jan. 02 saw Tesla slash prices by $2,000/unit after missing sales expectations.

Jan. 08 Elon twitters about hovering Roadsters taking to the sky.

On Jan. 13 Space X furloughed 10% of their workforce after missing a $500Million equity sale by $227Million.


On Jan. 18, Tesla announces he'll lay off 7% of workers even as he struggles to sell more vehicles.

A rough road ahead in every field he's invested in. Whatever happened to those much heralded solar roof tiles?
Terry


oren

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3071
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 338
  • Likes Given: 665
Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1102 on: January 18, 2019, 10:34:43 PM »
As was evident through the quarter reading between the lines, not enough US demand came through to meet Tesla's newfound production capabilities. Now it seems European demand for the higher-priced versions is also limited. The base $35k version is what's supposed to generate further demand, when it finally arrives. Seems the latest moves of cutting headcount, as well as scrapping the referral program, are intended to enable making the base version profitably and thus accelerate its availability.
I wouldn't bury the company just yet, as I do expect them to pull through. And I strongly doubt the bond payment will be a showstopper.

Archimid

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1568
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 70
  • Likes Given: 94
Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1103 on: January 19, 2019, 01:27:53 AM »
Quote
The due date is March 1st. the amount is $920Million, and the borrowers will demand cash, unless TSLA is trading above $359.87.

So? As of the end of Q3 Tesla had plenty of cash to pay if the lenders want full cash and the target is not met. Unspent cash is value that is not growing anyway.

Quote
30 business days from today is when the rubber meets the road.

Because of the payment they can make? Nah.

Quote
When 9% of Elon's workforce was fired last June he stated:
"I also want to emphasize that we are making this hard decision now so that we never have to do this again."

The sad reality. A company that wants to accelerate the advent of a sustainable world needs to be sustainable itself. Inefficiencies must be rooted out. This won't be the last sacrifice. The people that got Tesla to where it is today deserve better than this. Achieving Tesla's mission won't be easy. 

Quote
Jan. 08 Elon twitters about hovering Roadsters taking to the sky.

There is no law of physics that prohibits this from happening. Space X, Tesla and Elun Musk have the expertise and resources to pull this off. All you need is compressed air, some smartly placed nozzles and a very good AI to pull it off.

 He didn't say the car could hover. He said the car could take small hops. Compressed air thrusters that can make a car hover in place will simple be too big and cumbersome to be practical. Also, hovering in place is completely useless.

 I believe the car will use thrusters to add additional forward and down force during acceleration from 0, additional side and up/down force during cornering and additional back and down force during hard braking.  The short flights are at high speeds. Modern super cars use most of the car's surface to provide downforce at extremely high speeds, or else the cars will fly, crash and burn.

 If the surface of the body is designed to provide downforce, lift and control then the thrusts will be used to provide additional control. The car can keep accelerating even at very high speeds take small hops as required by the aerodynamics. Unlike modern supercars, it will flow with the wind instead fighting the wind with downforce.


Difficult? Most certainly. Impossible, not at all.


Quote
A rough road ahead in every field he's invested in. Whatever happened to those much heralded solar roof tiles?

A rough road ahead sure, but that's what happens to leaders. What they do is new and difficult. A rough road ahead is welcomed.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

zizek

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 307
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 15
  • Likes Given: 8
Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1104 on: January 19, 2019, 02:53:39 AM »
The world is dying and youre talking about personal hover cars.

TerryM

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 4224
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 58
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1105 on: January 19, 2019, 12:34:48 PM »
On Friday Tesla announced that the model 3 is now certified for sale in Europe.


This is a big deal.
Terry

Archimid

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1568
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 70
  • Likes Given: 94
Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1106 on: January 19, 2019, 01:17:27 PM »
Quote
The world is dying and youre talking about personal hover cars.


Again. Shiny objects. At the end of the day humans are a species of animal attracted to shiny objects. That is as true in Cuba as it is in Wall Street. It is as true now as it has always been across all cultures.

By making an electric car than can beat the top ICE cars across most metrics, a very shiny object is created that human specimens will be attracted to. Most of them won't be able to afford it but they will settle for something close to it. This is bait. If they take the bait (they like the car) they might chose for their next vehicle an EV.

You can force people to change or you can convince them to change due to better technology. In the war against climate change we will have to use both methods.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

Lurk

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 314
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 11
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1107 on: January 20, 2019, 05:54:57 AM »
After Hours
Last Updated: Jan 18, 2019 7:59 p.m. EST Delayed quote
$304.40 +$2.14   0.71%
 

Tesla hikes Supercharger prices worldwide

Tesla's efforts to improve its bottom line go beyond layoffs and disappearing perks. Electrek has learned that Tesla is raising Supercharger rates around the world, with per kWh rates climbing about 33 percent in numerous markets. While it's still less expensive than gas (even the 36 cents per kWh in some California locations is modest), it's not quite the savings it represented in the past. According to Tesla, this is really a matter of adapting to financial realities.

In a statement, Tesla said it was increasing prices to "better reflect differences in local electricity costs and site usage." It added that it was still launching new Supercharger stations on a "weekly" basis, and stressed that it didn't treat its EV chargers as a "profit center."

https://www.engadget.com/2019/01/19/tesla-hikes-supercharger-prices-worldwide/

Tesla Gets Green Light to Start Delivering Model 3 in Europe
[Bloomberg]
Hailey Waller and Dana Hull
BloombergJanuary 20, 2019

(Bloomberg) -- Tesla Inc. was cleared to begin delivering its Model 3 sedans across Europe, according to Dutch vehicle authority RDW.

Deliveries should start in February and, as happened in the U.S., the first sales in Europe will be for the Model 3 Long Range Battery variant, according to Tesla.

Starting Model 3 deliveries in Europe is a key priority for Chief Executive Officer Elon Musk. He’s pointed to sales of the sedan in Europe and China as a main reason he isn’t concerned about any potential setback caused by the U.S. federal tax credit toward Tesla purchases halving to $3,750 as of Jan. 1.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tesla-gets-green-light-start-000147004.html
American journalist Walter Lippmann observed, “Where all think alike, no one thinks very much!”
To Solve Climate Change ~ Change the System, because it changes nothing when nothing changes!

TerryM

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 4224
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 58
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1108 on: January 20, 2019, 08:21:33 PM »
The Canadian Space Agency's launch of it's 3 satellite Radarsat Constellation Mission (RCM) has been delayed indefinitely after the failure of a Space X booster's landing on December 5th.

In 2013 Space X was contracted to launch the satellites in July of 2018, but the explosion of a Falcon 9 in June of 2015 pushed dates forward. Subsequently MacDonald, Dettwiler & Associates (MDA), since absorbed by the American firm Maxar Technologies (Maxar), found that one of the three satellites required repair which also effected the proposed launch date.

Maxar announced on Dec 7th that it's WorldView 4 satellite, one we're probably all well aware of for it's Arctic coverage had failed. The stock plunged and a class action law suit was announced the following day.

2013 - RCM contracts with SpaceX for July 17 2018 launch
2015 - June explosion of Falcon 9 disrupts schedule going forward.
2017 - One satellite requires repair in Germany

06/??/2018 - Musk fires 7 senior managers @ SpaceX
11/??/2018 - Launch date of RCM bumped to 02/17/2019
12/05/2018 - Booster landing fails.
12/07/2016 - WorldView4 fails and Marax stock crashes
12/18/2018 - SpaceX announces $500m fundraiser that produces but $273M
01/08/2019 - Musk tweets about "Hovering Roadster"
01/11/2019 - SpaceX announced the layoff of 10% of their workforce.
01/15/2019 - Launch postponed indefinitely, $1B satellites gather more dust.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/spacex-musk-radarsat-constellation-mission-falcon9-1.4977512?cmp=newsletter-news-digests-canada-and-world-morning

Those of us following the flow of Arctic Sea Ice will have one eye closed because SpaceX couldn't meet their commitments. Musk time again? This isn't new and wondrous stuff, we've been putting things in orbit reliably since before Elon was born.

The company that once designed and built the Canadian "Space Arm", may go under because SpaceX couldn't deliver their satellites.
Terry


Bruce Steele

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1261
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 21
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1109 on: January 20, 2019, 09:58:46 PM »
Terry, Seems some of the responsibility is shared . I watched a couple weeks ago the last space-x launch from my porch. It delivered several iridium satilites into successful orbits and safely landed the first stage back onto it's landing platform in the Pacific. It is the first time I have been able to see  the first stage ignite it's retro rockets shortly after it separated from the second stage. It is amazing it ever works , I would imagine it's success improves over time. If it's any consolation I am sure trump would scotch all the Vandenburg launches if he thought it would hurt Calif. enough.

https://www.spacex.com/webcast
 

oren

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3071
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 338
  • Likes Given: 665
Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1110 on: January 20, 2019, 10:18:06 PM »
Quote
Those of us following the flow of Arctic Sea Ice will have one eye closed because SpaceX couldn't meet their commitments. Musk time again? This isn't new and wondrous stuff, we've been putting things in orbit reliably since before Elon was born.

The company that once designed and built the Canadian "Space Arm", may go under because SpaceX couldn't deliver their satellites.
Not sure what this is doing in a Tesla thread, but seriously Terry, are you claiming there were never any launch postponements in the past, before SpaceX? Did you notice part of the delay was due to a fault discovered in one of the satellites? Are you aware SpaceX launches are much cheaper thanks to re-usability? Did you check what SpaceX are actually committing to, as part of their launch agreements? Did you notice the statement that another date will be set for launch, at no additional cost?
Or is it just another opportunity to blame Musk for the world's woes?

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 13257
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 159
  • Likes Given: 91
Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1111 on: January 21, 2019, 01:48:37 AM »
Tesla Announces Date for Fourth Quarter and Full Year 2018 Financial Results and Webcast
Wednesday, January 30th, 2019
Time: 2:30pm Pacific Time / 5:30pm Eastern Time
Shareholder Letter (when published, on Jan 30):  http://ir.tesla.com
Webcast:  http://ir.tesla.com (live and replay)
http://ir.tesla.com/news-releases/news-release-details/tesla-announces-date-fourth-quarter-and-full-year-2018-financial


—-
Quote
IRS Form 8936 (the #EV Tax Credit for US buyers) is available in draft form and can be previewed though it should not be used for filing purposes. There is specific language referencing #Tesla and phaseout on the form! …
https://twitter.com/teslatunity/status/1086744941202731008
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 13257
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 159
  • Likes Given: 91
Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1112 on: January 21, 2019, 01:56:10 AM »
1/18/19, 4:43 PM
Model 3 has been approved in Europe! Homologation secured.
https://twitter.com/model3vins/status/1086378620157718528
Additional background on European type-approval for those interested:
English information about typeapprovals, digital CoC's and vehicle safety | RDW
https://www.rdw.nl/zakelijk/branches/fabrikanten-en-importeurs/english-information-about-typeapprovals

——
GLOVIS Captain, carrying the first shipment of Model 3 for Europe, is due in Zeebrugge, Belgium, on February 2.


————
“If you are going to call Tesla a small, insignificant, niche automaker that might not survive, you have to do the same for Jaguar and Porsche.”
Tesla Crushes Porsche & Jaguar Globally — 4th Quarter Sales Report
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/01/19/tesla-crushes-porsche-jaguar-globally-4th-quarter-sales-report/
Bar chart below.

$TSLA Model 3 took 60% of US market for cars selling at $55k and above.
Was there any other single car model taking 60% of the market share at any price and any time in the automotive history?
Lowering starting price to $35k expands [Total Addressable Market] 5-fold
https://twitter.com/vgrinshpun/status/1086880109137678336


—————-
Quote
Quote
Darion G (@RaptorJesuss) 1/19/19, 2:06 AM
@elonmusk Hey Elon my mom got into a car accident that totaled her car tonight, she’s okay, but I suggested she get a Tesla next because of how long her commute is and how safe they are. She said “I’ll get one if Elon tells me to” can you please tell her to, my convincing failed?
https://twitter.com/raptorjesuss/status/1086520333065043969
Quote
Elon Musk (@elonmusk) 1/19/19, 2:09 AM
@RaptorJesuss Tesla is the safest car according to US govt testing
< I'm so glad your Mom is ok!!
Quote
Darion G: Yeah she’s good I called her as soon as I got the tweet and she said “well looks like I have to now” ;D
« Last Edit: January 21, 2019, 02:02:08 AM by Sigmetnow »
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 13257
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 159
  • Likes Given: 91
Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1113 on: January 21, 2019, 01:59:23 AM »
Tesla is giving a Model 3 away to a hacker who can crack it
Quote
Tesla has been working closely with white hat hackers for years in order to make its vehicle software safer and now it’s taking an unprecedented step: it’s going to be giving away a Model 3 to a hacker who can crack the vehicle.

Over the past 4 years, Tesla has been running a bug bounty program and according to sources familiar with the effort, the company has given away hundreds of thousands in rewards to hackers who exposed vulnerabilities in its systems.

Tesla is going to be the first automaker to participate in a Pwn2Own hacking event, which is run by Trend Micro’s Zero Day Initiative (ZDI).

At the event in Vancouver this March, the company will give away a Model 3 to the winner of the hacking contest.

David Lau, Vice President of Vehicle Software at Tesla, commented on the announcement:
“We develop our cars with the highest standards of safety in every respect, and our work with the security research community is invaluable to us. Since launching our bug bounty program in 2014 – the first to include a connected consumer vehicle – we have continuously increased our investments into partnerships with security researchers to ensure that all Tesla owners constantly benefit from the brightest minds in the community. We look forward to learning about, and rewarding, great work in Pwn2Own so that we can continue to improve our products and our approach to designing inherently secure systems.”

The Model 3 will be the target of hackers at the event along with several other products like Oracle VirtualBox, Microsoft Office 365, Google Chrome and more.
https://electrek.co/2019/01/14/tesla-model-3-giveaway-hacker/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

zizek

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 307
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 15
  • Likes Given: 8
Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1114 on: January 21, 2019, 02:44:22 AM »
Not sure what this is doing in a Tesla thread, but seriously Terry, are you claiming there were never any launch postponements in the past, before SpaceX? Did you notice part of the delay was due to a fault discovered in one of the satellites? Are you aware SpaceX launches are much cheaper thanks to re-usability? Did you check what SpaceX are actually committing to, as part of their launch agreements? Did you notice the statement that another date will be set for launch, at no additional cost?
Or is it just another opportunity to blame Musk for the world's woes?

Oren, do you know the actual costs of a SpaceX launch? or just the price SpaceX is charging? And what about reusability makes launch vehicles cheaper? Cause the Shuttles sure weren't cheaper than rockets and they killed a bunch of people too.

But yeah, lets keep defending the privatization of public institutions. How many decades worth of case studies do you need to finally convince you that selling off capital intensive public companies is a bad idea. From medical, to social security, to energy, to utilities, to transportation -- it always makes the service worse for the average person, while pouring more money into the pockets of the rich

Do me a favour and read the massive amounts of literature that describes problems of privatization instead of being a lackey for neoliberalism. Why the hell do we keep on having this argument over and over again. Why the hell are so many people on this forum awful at reading anything other than climatology.
The people on this forum that are defending neoliberalism and their agents like Musk need to do a better job of presenting evidence.
Because when I read anything that describes the problems that caused climate change, I'm always reading about capitalism, neoliberalism, and how our society has been constructed to suck the blood out of every human and living thing on this planet. It's so weird I haven't found any papers or books that go along the lines of:
"Selling off Public Assets to the Ultra Wealthy for the Fraction of the Original Cost is Actually a Great Idea"
So the onus is on you to tell us why This Time is Different.  Because right now, all someone like Musk needs to do is to stamp "GREEN" on their product, and you can get away with anything.


I can't wait till you start defending the privatization of water because Musk found a way we can drink with our eyeballs and he will promise nobody will go thirsty by the year 2021 and all he needs is your money give him your money already jesus christ why are you waiting why don't you buy his product why are you doubting him this is amazing everything is amazing no one is thirsty now musk is a genius you just don't understand the eyeball is permeable membrane give him your money and water can be vaporized if you just give him your money and the vapor goes into your eyeball he is so smart he is on another plane of existence just listen to him and give him your money and all other ideas are bad and any criticism of him is bad and the people who criticize him are bad and are stopping progress so just give him your god damn money already .

zizek

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 307
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 15
  • Likes Given: 8
Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1115 on: January 21, 2019, 02:48:47 AM »
We sent a person to the moon in the year 1969. But I guess everyone forgot how all that stuff works so we have to give Musk billions of dollars to figure it out again.

Lurk

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 314
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 11
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1116 on: January 21, 2019, 04:16:00 AM »
The people on this forum that are defending neoliberalism and their agents like Musk need to do a better job of presenting evidence.
Because when I read anything that describes the problems that caused climate change, I'm always reading about capitalism, neoliberalism, and how our society has been constructed to suck the blood out of every human and living thing on this planet.

I find it really unsettling too. Those people claiming to be concerned about a melting arctic and climate change consequences who then seem to go out of their way to defend the very activities that is causing it. Be that business activities, govt decisions or how they vote in elections.

Tesla is 100% built upon the Economic-Corporate-Political-MIC System -- that very thing that has been slowly destroying the climate system for 200+ years. Tesla and Musk are no different, no different at all. Tesla is gouging resources from the natural world and using Advertising gimmicks manipulating peoples egos and emotional world to Grow Shareholder Wealth - taking from the many to give to the few. Selling things that are not necessities of life, selling us things that Humanity does not need to survive or thrive. 

How many Tesla cars and trucks does humanity need? How many satellites does Humanity need? How many Space Tourists can the biosphere support? How many trips to Mars does Humanity need to survive and thrive? None!

I think David Suzuki says it very well and clearly in this video interview.

"Now you try going into Walmart's hailed as this great success story and ask yourself and all that stuff in Walmart's how much of it is a necessity how much do we really need to be happy and healthy and I guarantee you 95% of it you'd never consider a necessity that's what our society is built on."


That is exactly what Tesla Shares are built on. Marketing HYPE. A pea and shell game. A Ponzi Scheme that is raping the life out of this planet. There are millions of people in this world living for a year on the price of one Tesla Share!!! Ponder that thought and then please explain to me why humanity needs Tesla or SpaceX or any Elon Musk?

Why are the Tesla/Musk Groupies here cheering him on while ignoring the real "life saving" technology in LSEVs that literally Billions of people do need and could afford?

APAC Low Speed Electric Vehicle Market to Reach 71.8 Million Units by 2025
https://globenewswire.com/news-release/2018/09/04/1564639/0/en/APAC-Low-Speed-Electric-Vehicle-Market-to-Reach-71-8-Million-Units-by-2025-P-S-Intelligence.html


Emerging Low Speed Electric Vehicle Market - Vehicle technologies that are practical and are emerging are low speed electric vehicles. These vehicles provide a practical solution that offers a convenient and cost-effective solution in areas where petroleum is limited or inconvenient. LSEV’s are becoming mainstream in urban China and India. Although the technology is relatively new, and there are some adoption barriers, LSEV continues to grow.
https://advancedbatteryconcepts.com/case_study/emerging-low-speed-electric-vehicle-market/

It's not news news - it's simple Ignored because Tesla and Musk are merely the Social media equivalent of Paris Hilton .... self-promoting loser egotists with a few million "followers" who cannot think for themselves very well let alone be long sighted visionaries for a better more livable Planet for ALL of Humanity. From 2016
http://theconversation.com/in-china-low-speed-electric-vehicles-are-driving-high-speed-urbanisation-70246

India has a far more advanced Multi-Level Integrated National SYSTEM for promoting electric vehicles uptake than Musk could ever achieve in a 100 lifetimes - or the US Govt tax money that is funding Teslas rebates and SpaceX rockets.   

Striving to Create a sustainable sustainable Ecosystem for EV Industry

SOCIETY OF MANUFACTURERS OF ELECTRIC VEHICLES, SMEV is committed to provide active support to EV industry and Govt. of India
https://smev.in/

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/auto/miscellaneous/smev-sets-up-new-electric-mobility-verticals/articleshow/64649138.cms

American journalist Walter Lippmann observed, “Where all think alike, no one thinks very much!”
To Solve Climate Change ~ Change the System, because it changes nothing when nothing changes!

Lurk

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 314
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 11
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1117 on: January 21, 2019, 04:48:30 AM »
   "Like we don't even love our own children enough to act in the best interests of our children - that's what this sounds me. And what do we do? We look to corporations!"
David Suzuki 16 Dec 2018 https://youtu.be/ktnAMTmgOX0?t=1749


Corporate Growth, Economic Growth, Exponential Growth and Suicide: De-Growth is the Only Rational and Ethical Response .... Less Sales Not More Sales!

   "Now I'm going to show you why what you've just asked is really it's missing the point! We live in a world that is defined as the biosphere. This is a very thin layer of air water and land. Carl Sagan the astronomer used to tell us if the earth is reduced to the size of a basketball the biosphere would be thinner than a layer of saran wrap!
https://youtu.be/ktnAMTmgOX0?t=1330
[...]

   "So what is all this crap about we got to have growth. We got to have growth? Every scientist I've talked to says we're already past the 59th minute. We're way beyond the capacity of this planet to sustain us!

People get mad at me they say: 'How dare you say that!!! Look at our stores filled with stuff. Look at our people are healthier we're living longer.'

Yeah yeah, we create the illusion that everything's fine. How by using up what our children and grandchildren and their children and grandchildren should be able to enjoy. We're using it all up now.

You know as an industrialist you don't dig into your capital. Your capital is what your future is based on. You live on the interest. We've been chewing into our biological capital - like man this is simply not sustainable. And as I say, I think and scientists agree with me, we're past the 59th minute, so don't talk about growth. Don't talk about growth. That's talking about a suicidal path --- unless you can grow and knock somebody else out of existence."


Q: So what do we need to be talking about then?

"De-growth! We've got to be asking what is an Economy? What is an economy for?

Are there no limits ... how much is enough?"
  https://youtu.be/ktnAMTmgOX0?t=1493



How many $65,000 Tesla EVs are enough?

How many $35,000 Tesla EVs will be enough?

How many SpaceX Rockets are enough?

How many Satellites are enough?

How many SpaceX missions to Mars will be enough?

How many Tesla cars launched into orbit will be enough?

How many Elon Musks will be enough?


To Solve Climate Change ~ Change the System because it changes nothing when nothing in the the System changes!
« Last Edit: January 21, 2019, 04:54:18 AM by Lurk »
American journalist Walter Lippmann observed, “Where all think alike, no one thinks very much!”
To Solve Climate Change ~ Change the System, because it changes nothing when nothing changes!

Lurk

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 314
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 11
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1118 on: January 21, 2019, 05:29:41 AM »
Where is the Leadership being shown by the Elders of our societies, including those on the ASIF and other like forums all over the world?

David Suzuki puts it this way:

   "I think the young people, certainly in Canada and I suspect in Australia, they know this isn't working. Yeah they know this isn't working. They need leadership.

   And so what I'm what doing now is I'm saying - I'm an elder, and as an elder I'm in a very special place. I don't have to worry about kissing anybody's ass to get a job or a raise or a promotion. I'm not worried about power or money or fame or or even sex, I'm way past that, so I'm free then to speak the truth.

   So what I'm asking for is - look retired company presidents and CEOs, when you've retired for Christ's sake tell us the truth! You don't have any worry about your future, tell us the truth, get out there and tell us what it's like.

   One of the most powerful groups in the peace movement that I was involved in the 60s was retired admirals and generals against nuclear war. These were guys that while they were the President's generals and admirals had to say we need nuclear deterrence and we have to build up our Armada. Once they retired they could tell you the truth - This is madness! - They had all that experience and credibility to tell us and I'm waiting for Grays for Green or some kind of retired people to get up there who don't have anything to lose by telling the truth.

   And what do they say what's life all about. What really at the end of your life Mr. CEO and Mr. / Mrs. President what are you proudest of? Was it money? Is that all it is? Or are there other things that are more important than money?

   And I think that we need Elders to get up and tell the youth and the youth provide the muscle in there. It's their future that's at stake!"


https://youtu.be/ktnAMTmgOX0?t=1954

It's really important for the Elders today to speak about things that truly matter. They must speak the Truth. Sales of Tesla EVs does not matter one bit. The success of Tesla Corporation does not matter one bit. The Corporate Spin and Advertising coming from Musks Twitter Account does not matter one bit!

Musk is as insignificant to solving Global Warming and Climate Change as a pimple on an Elephants backside would be significant.
American journalist Walter Lippmann observed, “Where all think alike, no one thinks very much!”
To Solve Climate Change ~ Change the System, because it changes nothing when nothing changes!

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2117
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 81
  • Likes Given: 86
Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1119 on: January 21, 2019, 09:20:21 AM »
We sent a person to the moon in the year 1969. But I guess everyone forgot how all that stuff works so we have to give Musk billions of dollars to figure it out again.

Not sure what this is doing in a Tesla thread, but seriously, Zizek, why are you suggesting that "we" have to pay Musk billions of dollars for SpaceX ? "We" haven't. He does this all with private investments.

But considering SpaceX's success in driving down launch costs, maybe "we" should have invested.
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6139
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 256
  • Likes Given: 178
Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1120 on: January 21, 2019, 10:01:56 AM »
Let's get back on topic, which is 'Tesla glory/failure'.

It seems that it's really important that Tesla starts producing those 'cheap' Model 3s asap, not only because of the company's bottom line, but also because this has always been the promise (first we build luxury cars to get attention and attract investments, then we produce for the masses). I wouldn't mind if they skip the Model Y, new Roadster and pick-up truck, and start making some minimalist cars that are super-efficient and last a long time.
Compare, compare, compare

TerryM

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 4224
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 58
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1121 on: January 21, 2019, 11:27:40 AM »
Let's get back on topic, which is 'Tesla glory/failure'.

It seems that it's really important that Tesla starts producing those 'cheap' Model 3s asap, not only because of the company's bottom line, but also because this has always been the promise (first we build luxury cars to get attention and attract investments, then we produce for the masses). I wouldn't mind if they skip the Model Y, new Roadster and pick-up truck, and start making some minimalist cars that are super-efficient and last a long time.
When a 150 pound person needs to haul around a 1200 pound battery when she goes to get her nails done you've ruled out minimalism and efficiency.
3500 pounds of machinery to transport a 150 pound individual might seem ridiculous, but with self driving being as always "just around the corner", we'll soon be able to transport absolutely nothing in our 3,500# behemoth as it careens through the streets to do our bidding.


In what dystopian future will we see pedestrian mothers shielding their young from the robotic monsters let loose on "public"? streets. Some whisking the 1%, hidden from view behind occluded windows, as they're swept from meeting place to eating place then back to the office, then home. Others racing by unoccupied, clogging transportation routes as they rush to do their masters bidding.


Walking on so called "public" roadways has been unsafe and illegal for some time. "Restricted" highways are just that, restricted to those that can afford to purchase, license, fuel and maintain vehicles that most of the worlds inhabitants will never afford.
If it's determined that self driving cars are not compatible with pedestrian traffic, when will the walls go up to protect the vehicles from the populace?


When GM, Firestone and Standard Oil purchased the bus lines and streetcars - then shut them down, it was a frontal attack on the environment. To respond by developing a generation of "Green" private vehicles is a sick joke.
I don't think we've enough time for jokes.
Terry

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 13257
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 159
  • Likes Given: 91
Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1122 on: January 21, 2019, 03:22:50 PM »
Dear Terry,
Practically every launch encounters delays!  Space is hard; they trying to do things that have never been done before; there are so many pieces of hardware, technical support groups, and governmental bodies to deal with; and you only get one chance to do it right!

Was going to post a list… but just see the link below for a few of the delays we know about that are on the upcoming launch manifest.  SpaceX appears so often because, due to their success and innovation, so many companies have come to them to launch their satellites that SpaceX has surpassed Russia, and NASA, and now launches more rockets than anyone else!   Also, they are very transparent in their attempts.

https://spaceflightnow.com/launch-schedule/




———————————————-———————————————-———————————————-

Let's get back on topic, which is 'Tesla glory/failure'.

It seems that it's really important that Tesla starts producing those 'cheap' Model 3s asap, not only because of the company's bottom line, but also because this has always been the promise (first we build luxury cars to get attention and attract investments, then we produce for the masses). I wouldn't mind if they skip the Model Y, new Roadster and pick-up truck, and start making some minimalist cars that are super-efficient and last a long time.

- For the immediate future, people are going to drive cars, SUVs, and pickup trucks. 
- Smart electric vehicles offer lower emissions and lower rates of death, injury and disease (e.g., from neighborhood pollution) than the ICE alternatives.
- Tesla’s success has forced other automakers to introduce EVs much sooner than they otherwise would have, and has encouraged many new vehicle startups to make other EVs for people who can’t afford (or, puzzlingly, don’t want ;) ) a Tesla.

——
Clean Technica has updated their “Nasty Tesla Charts.”

30 Nasty Tesla Charts
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/01/20/30-nasty-tesla-charts/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

zizek

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 307
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 15
  • Likes Given: 8
Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1123 on: January 21, 2019, 03:43:26 PM »
We sent a person to the moon in the year 1969. But I guess everyone forgot how all that stuff works so we have to give Musk billions of dollars to figure it out again.

Not sure what this is doing in a Tesla thread, but seriously, Zizek, why are you suggesting that "we" have to pay Musk billions of dollars for SpaceX ? "We" haven't. He does this all with private investments.

But considering SpaceX's success in driving down launch costs, maybe "we" should have invested.

Sorry for continuing the off topic discussion, but I want to get the record straight since Rob likes to play fast and loose with facts.
SpaceX benefits both from generous government tax benefits and grants, as well as contracts from the biggest taxpayer grift known to mankind: the Military Industrial Complex.
These facts have been posted countless times on this forum. But I guess we can continue to ignore anything that doesn't nicely fit into the neoliberal agenda.
Not only that, SpaceX is built on the the physical and intellectual infrastructure from the decades of work by NASA and Roscosmos. Neoliberals like to be very selective with their timelines and resources when it comes to boasting about their own successes. Apparently Elon Musk has built the car and rocket all by himself with no help from anyone else, and those gosh darn government scientists sure didn't do anything about it.

And to get back to Tesla, Sigmetnow still thinks that the tax credit for EVs is not a subsidy for Tesla. And she is not alone with that sentiment. Just take a moment and think about that. Corporate propaganda is so effective that it can redefine the simplest and most obvious subsidy. The government is literally giving people cash to buy a specific product from corporations, and people still don't think that is a subsidy.

I will end on this point.
How are we supposed to price the negative externalties from polluters when we can't even decide if stuffing cash into a corporation's mouth is consider a public subsidy or not.
The true costs of resource extraction, endless consumption, and pollution are being dumped onto future generations as a form of a present-day subsidy. Somebody has to pay for climate change and the toxic wasteland left behind by greedy corporations. Emitting CO2 into the atmosphere without having to pay for it's consequences is a subsidy. And to understand the true economic impact of pollution is as complex as climate change itself. But how are we supposed to cross this hurdle of pricing negative extsernalties when we constantly fall victim for corporatist propaganda that decides for us what is a subsidy and what isn't. 

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6139
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 256
  • Likes Given: 178
Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1124 on: January 21, 2019, 03:50:50 PM »
Come on, on-topic! There are plenty of threads for this kind of stuff.
Compare, compare, compare

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2117
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 81
  • Likes Given: 86
Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1125 on: January 22, 2019, 10:07:23 AM »
I wouldn't mind if they skip the Model Y, new Roadster and pick-up truck, and start making some minimalist cars that are super-efficient and last a long time.

Model Y, new Roadster, the new pickup as well as existing Model 3 and Model X and Model S are ALL super-efficient electric vehicles and they last a long time.

About your advice to Tesla to build a "minimalist" electric vehicle ; why not let another company try that failed concept. People don't want a golf cart. They want a vehicle that is BETTER than other vehicles in its class, on ALL aspects (performance, safely, durability, environmentally friendly etc etc). Tesla did that :

Tesla Model 3 is already the best selling car in the US (in dollars) and 5th best selling car by volume, at par with the Toyota Corolla.

I think Tesla found their mojo, and you should commend them for it, not push them to do something that has been proven to fail every time some company tried it.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 10:20:27 AM by Rob Dekker »
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

NeilT

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 725
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 48
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1126 on: January 22, 2019, 12:48:52 PM »
Quote
"This quarter will hopefully allow us, with great difficulty, effort and some luck, to target a tiny profit," he wrote.

doesn't sound good.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46919489

This sounds like Tesla has already decided that they will not make the convertible debt threshold. This is what I was talking about with Tesla being killed by normal business practise.

Before the SEC issue, Musk would have used all resources to drive Tesla to 7,000 model 3 cars per week.  The approach has changed and Tesla will shrink to meet the debt challenge even if it means they produce less cars than anticipated in Q1.

Tesla has not survived so far by playing these games, it has survived by going at Mach2 whilst on fire to ignite investor confidence and customer loyalty. The new chairman and new directors may hope the China Gigafactory will make the difference, but Tesla as a betrayer of the trust of the people who supported it, sitting in the slow lane, is not a long term prospect.
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

Robert A. Heinlein

oren

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3071
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 338
  • Likes Given: 665
Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1127 on: January 22, 2019, 12:58:21 PM »
I think Tesla has slowed down this time not on its own volition, but by reduced demand for high-priced versions. It could accelerate by announcing the immediate availability of a $35k base version, but it would do so at a loss. With all the shorts hovering around, and no one handing Tesla free money to spend, it would be a very short-term Mach2 flight. I don't think they had much choice.
Hopefully, they will find a way to make that base version profitably in a few months, and will accelerate back to normal.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 13257
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 159
  • Likes Given: 91
Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1128 on: January 22, 2019, 05:24:47 PM »
Superchargers have been installed inside the gates at Pier 80 in San Francisco, where Tesla sends cars to be loaded onto “Roll On, Roll Off” vehicle carrier ships for overseas transport.  The GLOVIS ships have a capacity of 6,000 cars or more:

GLOVIS Captain is in the mid-Atlantic, due in Zeebrugge Belgium ~Feb 2 with a boatload of Model 3.
GLOVIS Cosmos is approaching the Panama Canal, reportedly headed to Norway with a larger load of Teslas than GLOVIS Captain.
GLOVIS Symphony (a larger ship) is currently docked in San Francisco. Destination as yet unknown.  (Possibly China?)
Grand Aurora is due in SF on 23 Jan.

https://twitter.com/macgyver_be/status/1086686533279797248

https://twitter.com/macgyver_be/status/1087626642816753664

Tesla's Model 3 Is Coming to Europe
https://www.fool.com/investing/2019/01/21/teslas-model-3-is-coming-to-europe.aspx



Edit:  And yes, they are still making thousands of Model 3 for North America:
Quote
1/22/19, 11:37 AM
#Tesla registered 13,974 new #Model3 VINs. ~38% estimated to be dual motor. ~34% estimated to be International. Highest VIN is 265119. ...
https://twitter.com/model3vins/status/1087751027296657409
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 06:05:15 PM by Sigmetnow »
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Lurk

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 314
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 11
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1129 on: January 22, 2019, 09:38:39 PM »
Ooooh excitement plus. Now we can get the Shipping Reports here too.

TSLA shares are $296.50 only down $5.62 but still falling ... oh my what will the close be?

Maybe what the "Tesla glory/failure" thread needs is a permanent NYSE ticker insert for TSLA ?

Plus the Daily Shipping Reports, obviously. (grin)
American journalist Walter Lippmann observed, “Where all think alike, no one thinks very much!”
To Solve Climate Change ~ Change the System, because it changes nothing when nothing changes!

Bruce Steele

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1261
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 21
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1130 on: January 23, 2019, 05:14:02 AM »
Lurk, I haven't ever bought or owned a new car. I will never buy a new Tesla either but I can't say I wouldn't buy one used . I do have solar and I am in the process of buying a couple Tesla power walls.
If I did buy a used tesla I would have enough range to cover most of my driving needs and charge at home during off peak hours .  I am also into making my own biodiesel and farming without fossil fuels. Solar pays for water pumping and freezer costs and homemade bio fuels the tractor for plowing etc. I can feed my family without fossil fuel although I go to the store when I feel like it unless I'm trying to make a point.
So if some of the component parts aren't exactly minimal ( like a used Tesla ) what's the harm in trying to get off the grid , off fossil fuel ? Like I said it ain't perfect but putting the whole package together has to have some kind of appeal ?  Can't we improve the component parts as we gain technological skill?  As much as solar looks like a no brainier with peak electric rates up to 42 cents a kWh here in parts of Calif. it wasn't always the obvious choice for reduced electric costs. A power wall also doesn't currently pencil out but I am betting electric rates will continue to climb. The power wall also affords the ability to monitor solar , storage and use , real time. 
 Goal-
 Get off fossil fuels
  a. Off the shelf component parts
  b. Verified ( or verifiable ) results
  c. Energy documentation for imbedded costs
  d. Energy production of completed system ( food calories produced )documented
 Goal -
   Try to make d. greater than c. 
    Produced calories greater than imbedded energy costs
I have a long way to go but I think sometimes it's important to agree to a goal .
If I bought a used tesla I can't imagine ever getting the food calories produced on my farm to overtake the energy costs of infrastructure .  The hard truth is even the most minimal use of steel, or aluminum , or battery production will quickly dwarf the food calories a farmer can produce without fossil fuels.
JimD helped me run some of the numbers . You'd enjoy JimD , you might reread some of his old posts.
  To sum, we won't know unless we run the numbers . It would be good to agree on what we were trying to accomplish.
 

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 13257
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 159
  • Likes Given: 91
Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1131 on: January 23, 2019, 08:14:05 PM »
German subsidies, European loans:
Quote
As expected, the Tesla Model 3 has been added to the list of electric vehicles eligible for a €4000 subsidy in Germany. twitter.com/BAFA_Bund/stat…
https://twitter.com/macgyver_be/status/1087733014942150656
- This is important because people were holding back on ordering until they were sure it was eligible for that subsidy.

"Financial leases"/Car loans are now available in Europe on the Model 3, through Tesla, starting today.
https://twitter.com/macgyver_be/status/1088062532701642754
Text image in French at the link.
—-
Vincent (@vincent13031925) 1/22/19, 11:36 AM
Final thought of my current China trip: Spoke with many ppl in different cities, almost all of them are excited with Tesla GF3 development. Many ppl wanna have a Tesla in the near future, especially the Model 3. Local MSM are very positive about Tesla future.
https://twitter.com/vincent13031925/status/1087750758152339456

—-
And especially for Lurk ;) :
GLOVIS Symphony has departed San Francisco — headed for China!  Appears to be routed for a port near Hong Kong, with an ETA of 10 February. 
Now that GLOVIS Symphony has cleared the port, Grand Aurora has left her holding pattern out at sea and is headed in to dock in San Francisco, due in a few hours.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.