Support the Arctic Sea Ice Forum and Blog

Author Topic: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....  (Read 573344 times)

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6139
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 256
  • Likes Given: 178
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3150 on: January 18, 2018, 05:05:06 PM »
“NanoCrystal Electricity”

It will magically power everything – lamps, TVs, alarm clocks, radios, coffee makers, washers, dryers, refrigerators, toaster ovens, blenders… you name it – without a plug!

NanoCrystal?  :D
That's the lamest name I've heard in a while.

Is it known what happens to your body's cells when wireless electricity goes through them to power 1000W appliances? And here I was worried about WiFi electrosmog.
Compare, compare, compare

Bob Wallace

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3573
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 34
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3151 on: January 18, 2018, 05:22:56 PM »
I'd like to go back to the issue about cars being set on fire.

There are times when people act badly.  People of all colors damage private property. 

With self-driving cars, robotaxis, a company could rapidly move all their cars out of an area where trouble was happening.  There would be no need to leave cars parked in neighborhoods where vandalism and break ins are a problem. 

Worst case, if you happen to live in an area where parked vehicles are more frequently damaged, you'll have to order your ride a few minutes earlier in order for a car to arrive from a few miles away.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 13257
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 159
  • Likes Given: 91
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3152 on: January 18, 2018, 05:36:42 PM »
...
With self-driving cars, robotaxis, a company could rapidly move all their cars out of an area where trouble was happening.  ...

Including any cars with occupants who may be headed to the area, but are unaware of any problems....
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

oren

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3070
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 338
  • Likes Given: 665
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3153 on: January 18, 2018, 05:43:51 PM »
I'd like to go back to the issue about cars being set on fire.

There are times when people act badly.  People of all colors damage private property. 

With self-driving cars, robotaxis, a company could rapidly move all their cars out of an area where trouble was happening.  There would be no need to leave cars parked in neighborhoods where vandalism and break ins are a problem. 

Worst case, if you happen to live in an area where parked vehicles are more frequently damaged, you'll have to order your ride a few minutes earlier in order for a car to arrive from a few miles away.
Just adding to that, a robo-car has much better defenses than a normal car: its cameras can record the attackers and transmit their photos. It can call security/police when it senses it is being attacked. And its algorithms can even include moving away from suspected aggressors. Besides, such cars would normally park outside urban areas.

numerobis

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 838
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 18
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3154 on: January 19, 2018, 12:44:47 AM »
I'd like to go back to the issue about cars being set on fire.

There are times when people act badly.  People of all colors damage private property. 

With self-driving cars, robotaxis, a company could rapidly move all their cars out of an area where trouble was happening.  There would be no need to leave cars parked in neighborhoods where vandalism and break ins are a problem. 

Worst case, if you happen to live in an area where parked vehicles are more frequently damaged, you'll have to order your ride a few minutes earlier in order for a car to arrive from a few miles away.

Even better: cars could spot someone setting cars on fire, call police with photos, and leave the area.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6139
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 256
  • Likes Given: 178
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3155 on: January 19, 2018, 03:51:59 PM »
Even better: cars could spot someone setting cars on fire, call police with photos, and leave the area.

Maybe they could arrest them, depending on whether they're an Autobot or a Decepticon.
Compare, compare, compare

TerryM

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 4224
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 58
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3156 on: January 19, 2018, 07:44:29 PM »
Wouldn't an EV be much more difficult to ignite than an ICE?
tERRY

crandles

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2107
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 23
  • Likes Given: 25
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3157 on: January 19, 2018, 08:06:26 PM »
Wouldn't an EV be much more difficult to ignite than an ICE?
tERRY

Does that depend on petrol stations becoming much more scarce or maybe there are alternatives like methylated spirits? Are all lawnmowers and similar machinery all going battery &/or electric also or might petrol stations on a smaller throughput scale persist quite some time? Or maybe if you are going to vandalise, fuel tank locks are easy to break and make convenient 'free' source?

Bruce Steele

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1261
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 21
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3158 on: January 19, 2018, 08:17:22 PM »
Considering the progression of drones from spying to armed semiautonomous kill vehicles maybe the autonomous cars will fight back? 
 I saw film taken of the recent Thomas fire that came from high altitude drones. I am quite sure they have been involved with CAMP ( campaign agains't marijuana production ) although I have no proof.
When does spying in the name of fighting crime or pot production switch to enforcing borders and ultimately to armed kill vehicles. All in the name of first fighting terror, then fighting crime. How would organized car burning be viewed ... Terrorism?  ELF is most definatly viewed as an Eco-terrorist organization for burning down houses.
 I don't trust the whole movement towards autonomous vehicles because it will very much enable the mission creep that facilities armed autonomous vehicles that are currently employed by the military. I don't know why I should trust police with this technology , and ultimately they will be using it.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 13257
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 159
  • Likes Given: 91
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3159 on: January 19, 2018, 09:13:17 PM »
Wouldn't an EV be much more difficult to ignite than an ICE?
tERRY

Yes.  Most ICE car fires are causes by leaks of flammable fluids an EV doesn’t have.  This article compares the various causes of car fires, EV vs. ICE — mostly accidental, though they briefly consider arson:
Quote
When comparing collisions only, EVs are safer 30-3 or 10-1, yet collisions are only responsible for a third of the fires. In general, the public and media has dismissed the other two thirds causes for fire in an automobile. They have dismissed the fact that fuel systems are still the number one cause of fires and this will never be the case for the BEV. In fact, 4  of HSW’s top 5 causes for fire including (fluid spills, overheating engines, and catalytic converters) will never be the cause of a fire in a BEV.
https://insideevs.com/op-ed-top-10-causes-of-automobile-fires-ev-vs-ice/

And here’s the result of intentional fires set to test what would happen to a big Tesla Powerpack:
https://electrek.co/2016/12/19/tesla-fire-powerpack-test-safety/

Which is not to say an EV can’t be set on fire:  :(
https://www.torquenews.com/1/2-teslas-set-fire-amsterdam-within-few-hundred-feet-tesla-haters
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 13257
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 159
  • Likes Given: 91
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3160 on: January 19, 2018, 09:25:14 PM »
Teaching cars to think more like humans — which, as Bruce points out, may not be the optimal solution in the end. ;)

Redefining 'safety' for self-driving cars
https://theconversation.com/redefining-safety-for-self-driving-cars-87419
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

numerobis

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 838
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 18
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3161 on: January 19, 2018, 11:06:10 PM »
Sigmetnow: most intentional fires are caused by people lighting the interior of the car on fire, likely using petrol to light it. The drive train isn’t really related to the interior furnishings, so I’d expect the EV and ICEV to burn equally well during a riot.

But as crandles points out, if there’s a lot of EVs, there’s less ready availability of petrol for rioters to use to light cars on fire. There’s still lots of energy in the car, it’s just not as easy to repurpose.

Bob Wallace

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3573
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 34
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3162 on: January 19, 2018, 11:21:33 PM »
Quote
I’d expect the EV and ICEV to burn equally well during a riot.

Once the heat is sufficient to set off the fuel in the car's tank there will be a fireball.  EV batteries burn more slowly, sort of a smoldering fire. 

Sleepy

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1168
  • Retired, again...
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 73
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3163 on: January 20, 2018, 07:29:40 AM »
Why is everyone so obsessed with car fires? As a former fireman, albeit a loong time ago, I'm simply bored by the subject. Car fires will still be there with EVs, only different. Man discovered how to control fire a long time ago, without petrol. MSB (Swedish Civil Contingencies Agency) has a long and elaborate writeup on everything considering EVs and fires as well, but it's all in Swedish.

Guess I primed the car fires with one line here:
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,438.msg139079.html#msg139079
The post was mainly about legal issues that needs to be considered BEFORE we will see any level 4 or 5 cars in traffic, then this line:
Then we might also consider how we humans would treat automated vehicles in traffic.
Bob made one reply and then the car fires started by Alexanders comment.

Another rather funny observation, on this page everyone has stayed on topic and mentioned cars in their posts except three people. I myself made one totally off topic comment, Alexander555 made two, Neven made three.  ;D
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
-
Science is a jealous mistress and takes little account of a man's feelings.

Bob Wallace

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3573
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 34
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3164 on: January 20, 2018, 07:49:33 AM »
Quote
Car fires will still be there with EVs

But the frequency?  Car fires are much more common that most people realize. 

Quote
Cars bursting into flames after a crash is a pretty rare event. According to the National Fire Protection Association, of the 174,000 vehicle fires in 2015:

49% were due to mechanical failure or malfunction
11% were due to leaks or breaks
23% were due to electrical failures
5% were due to the vehicle being exposed to another type of fire
3% were due to a car crash or rollover
(the remaining causes were not listed)

92% were due to mechanical failures, leaks, and electrical problems.  160,080.  About 439 per day.

Tesla had two battery fires prior to putting the shield underneath the battery pack.  There was one unexplained fire while a Tesla was charging in Sweden(?).  I'm not aware of any other non-crash related fires.  And one could argue that the two battery fires resulting from running over metal junk in the road could be attributed to crash.

Is it likely that EVs will experience far fewer fires than ICEVs?  Or might the number increase as some EVs get old?  I would think the circuit breakers would still work.

TerryM

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 4224
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 58
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3165 on: January 20, 2018, 08:50:11 AM »
Bob
I'd expect that any vehicles carrying many liters of flammable liquids would experience more flare ups than those without. Circuit breakers are designed to fail in the open position, although the contacts certainly can weld themselves together. Fusible links provide the final safety.


I think this discussion was actually about vandals/luddites destroying parked EVs in preference to ICE vehicles.
In San Francisco buses carrying high tech workers have recently been attacked, probably as a reaction to the soaring house prices that have driven some into homelessness. As long as EVs are perceived as the vehicles of the elite, some will be attacked. Once they become popular with the masses this form of vandalism should end. 8)


Terry

Sleepy

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1168
  • Retired, again...
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 73
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3166 on: January 20, 2018, 09:45:09 AM »
I think this discussion was actually about vandals/luddites destroying parked EVs in preference to ICE vehicles.
It transformed into that exactly here Terry:
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,438.msg139127.html#msg139127
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
-
Science is a jealous mistress and takes little account of a man's feelings.

Sleepy

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1168
  • Retired, again...
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 73
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3167 on: January 20, 2018, 11:04:48 AM »
I'd expect that any vehicles carrying many liters of flammable liquids would experience more flare ups than those without. Circuit breakers are designed to fail in the open position, although the contacts certainly can weld themselves together. Fusible links provide the final safety.
People in general imagine that, reality is a bit different.
I once had a heated discussion with a friend. He was upset after seeing someone smoking at a gas station. Everyone would agree, it's stupid. But when I tried to explain that during summer the air/fuel ratio would be off and it's at least a bit safer then. Then he was mad at me. :)

I asked him how many times have you turned off your (open flame) propane fridge in your motor home while refuelling?
-Never.
Has the gas station ever exploded or caught fire?
-No.
Why is that?
Adding an image depicting the flammable air/fuel ratio in closed containers for gasoline and ethanol. In the open air during summer it's almost impossible to ignite gasoline fumes. Only in Hollywood.
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
-
Science is a jealous mistress and takes little account of a man's feelings.

Bob Wallace

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3573
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 34
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3168 on: January 20, 2018, 05:10:03 PM »
Even if 60% of car fires are deliberate the number of non-deliberate is rather high.  I continue to wonder if EVs will set themselves on fire at the same rate.  I suspect not.

As for intentional damage to EVs that should be very minimal with robotaxis.  Just don't leave them in places where they would be accessible to vandals.  If there is a large area where vandalism is more likely then set up a fenced, attended service center where the EVs can charge, be cleaned, and stay safe until called out for a ride.


magnamentis

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1833
    • View Profile
    • Philosophy Ethics Numerology Mikrocirkulation Vaskular Therapie Gesundheit Blut Gesundheit Schmerzen Multiple Sklerose Diabetes Immunsystem Fibromyalgia Modular Mobile Computing iOS Software OSX Android Custom Rom Rooted
  • Liked: 67
  • Likes Given: 104
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3169 on: January 20, 2018, 05:17:04 PM »
most car fires happen due to broken or leaking fuel tubes and in the process fuel dropping onto very hot parts like exhaust etc.

again most cases are due to an  impact of some kind, i.e. accidents and only in very very rare cases, compared to the total number of vehicles, is there another reason than those mentioned.
http://magnamentis.com
Knowledge, Understanding & Insight Are Among The Best Sources For Personal Freedom & Vitality !

Sleepy

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1168
  • Retired, again...
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 73
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3170 on: January 20, 2018, 05:35:34 PM »
Even if 60% of car fires are deliberate the number of non-deliberate is rather high.  I continue to wonder if EVs will set themselves on fire at the same rate.  I suspect not.
We will see that soon Bob, when we get more EVs on the road.

One of the cases I've read of, a lightly crashed hybrid (again at MSB and in Swedish), caught fire long after the crash. They even test drove the car after the crash and then parked it outside. The only visible trace of where the fire could have started was some DC arcing on a battery connection (yes there were fuses but that didn't help).
But that's also why one of the recommendations to rescue personell now, is to disconnect batteries after a crash on EVs and hybrids. That said, there are few reasons to believe that the batteries themselves should cause any major problems as we progress. They just need to deal with them differently after crashes, many of these earlier fires will probably not happen in the future.
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
-
Science is a jealous mistress and takes little account of a man's feelings.

Bob Wallace

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3573
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 34
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3171 on: January 20, 2018, 05:53:28 PM »
most car fires happen due to broken or leaking fuel tubes and in the process fuel dropping onto very hot parts like exhaust etc.

again most cases are due to an  impact of some kind, i.e. accidents and only in very very rare cases, compared to the total number of vehicles, is there another reason than those mentioned.

US - "3% were due to a car crash or rollover"

Bob Wallace

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3573
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 34
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3172 on: January 20, 2018, 05:59:17 PM »
Even if 60% of car fires are deliberate the number of non-deliberate is rather high.  I continue to wonder if EVs will set themselves on fire at the same rate.  I suspect not.
We will see that soon Bob, when we get more EVs on the road.

One of the cases I've read of, a lightly crashed hybrid (again at MSB and in Swedish), caught fire long after the crash. They even test drove the car after the crash and then parked it outside. The only visible trace of where the fire could have started was some DC arcing on a battery connection (yes there were fuses but that didn't help).
But that's also why one of the recommendations to rescue personell now, is to disconnect batteries after a crash on EVs and hybrids. That said, there are few reasons to believe that the batteries themselves should cause any major problems as we progress. They just need to deal with them differently after crashes, many of these earlier fires will probably not happen in the future.

Yes, but that's a crash related fire.  We had a least one similar fire in an EV (or PHEV) some days after the crash.  Now the procedure is for batteries to be discharged when wrecked EVs are taken to storage yards.  I think it's also the case that gas tanks are emptied before wrecks are stored.

There was another EV fire (IIRC) that started with a minor crash where it seems like some electrical line was pinched and the arching ignited the headliner (?).  That, of course, could happen with any vehicle regardless of how it was powered. Heck, I almost burned up my sailboat that way.  (My wiring mistake, not a crash.)

Andreas T

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1095
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 5
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3173 on: January 20, 2018, 07:15:57 PM »
.....
People in general imagine that, reality is a bit different.
I once had a heated discussion with a friend. He was upset after seeing someone smoking at a gas station. Everyone would agree, it's stupid. But when I tried to explain that during summer the air/fuel ratio would be off and it's at least a bit safer then. Then he was mad at me. :)

I asked him how many times have you turned off your (open flame) propane fridge in your motor home while refuelling?
-Never.
Has the gas station ever exploded or caught fire?
-No.
Why is that?
Adding an image depicting the flammable air/fuel ratio in closed containers for gasoline and ethanol. In the open air during summer it's almost impossible to ignite gasoline fumes. Only in Hollywood.
But of course gas stations are not in closed containers and even if some part of it would have air which is saturated in fuel vapour at summer air temperature it will be diluted to a flammable mixture by air currents at least in the transition from saturated vapour to surrounding fresh air.
Maybe your friend was exasperated by your lack of logic?

gerontocrat

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3889
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 405
  • Likes Given: 9
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3174 on: January 20, 2018, 07:18:00 PM »
Tooo much about car fires. Nowt about what's happening with EVs etc.
Time to grab the remote and switch channels ?
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

Bob Wallace

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3573
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 34
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3175 on: January 20, 2018, 07:28:48 PM »
Tooo much about car fires. Nowt about what's happening with EVs etc.
Time to grab the remote and switch channels ?

Bring some new information or a new idea to discuss.

(Personally I found the car fire diversion interesting and informative.  YM seems to V.)

Tor Bejnar

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2196
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 94
  • Likes Given: 25
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3176 on: January 20, 2018, 07:51:52 PM »
Wired Magazine:  The Potential Pitfalls of Electric Cars, in 5 Charts
Quote
1. How many gas cars can we take off the road?
2. Bring on the batteries.
3. What kind of power is charging those cars?
4. What are the batteries made of?
Whoever wrote this article hasn't been reading this thread, or the source material presented here, I feel!  I think it is another main stream media publisher uncomfortable with the future.
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things.

Tor Bejnar

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2196
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 94
  • Likes Given: 25
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3177 on: January 20, 2018, 07:56:46 PM »
This is fun (and sort of the antidote of burning cars, but not really):

Popular Mechanics:  The Floating Electric Car That Was Born From Tragedy
Quote
The devastating earthquake and tsunami that hit Japan in 2011 inspired numerous innovations meant to prevent future disasters. That includes one man's dream of a floating car.

Hideo Tsurumaki, a former Toyota employee, witnessed people trying to escape the tidal onslaught in their cars only to be swept away in the destruction. He later founded Fomm Corp., which aims to build small, waterproof cars that can actually float. He sees them as not just potential ways to get around, but as safety investments.
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things.

Tor Bejnar

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2196
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 94
  • Likes Given: 25
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3178 on: January 20, 2018, 08:04:46 PM »
Green Car Reports:  What you need to know about electric-car namesake Nikola Tesla
Quote
This month marks the 75th year since the death of famed inventor and and electrical innovator Nikola Tesla, a man whose life is as interesting as his technical achievements.

Tesla, a Serbian who was born in what's now Croatia, brought the world numerous innovations in electricity that, to this day, define how we live.
...
His time with Edison in the United States would be short-lived; Tesla claimed Edison backed out of a deal where Nikola was offered $50,000 to solve a series of problems Edison's researchers couldn't pin down.

Tesla must have been a trusting sort, as he then partnered with two investors to create Tesla Electric Light and Manufacturing.

All the patents Tesla filed were attached to the company, and his partners would steal the company out from under Tesla, leaving him penniless and without his own inventions.
...
He remains legendary and revered today among engineers and inventors for making the idea of alternating current a practical reality, allowing electricity to be transmitted over long distances.
...
While Edison remains far more famous, Tesla's creation eventually overwhelmed the direct current pioneered by Edison.
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 13257
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 159
  • Likes Given: 91
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3179 on: January 20, 2018, 08:06:35 PM »
This article has a rather detailed video explaining to first responders how to safely deal with the high voltage circuits and extrication considerations in a Tesla Model X.

Oh, and per Tesla:  the first big rule for an EV battery fire is:  lots and lots of water!  You must keep cooling the battery to prevent thermal runaway.  Keep putting water on it for... a long time... and beware of the risk for later flare-ups.

Watch first responders rip apart a Tesla Model X (Video)
https://www.teslarati.com/first-responders-go-school-tesla-model-x/

Edit: found the other link I was thinking of, with the Emergency Response Guide from Tesla:  https://jalopnik.com/watch-volunteer-firefighters-in-austria-extinguish-a-fi-1819665352
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 08:18:10 PM by Sigmetnow »
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Tor Bejnar

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2196
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 94
  • Likes Given: 25
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3180 on: January 20, 2018, 08:13:59 PM »
famous words:  If You Build It, They Will Come (Field of Dreams)

Jalopnik:  That Fleet Of Electric Cars The LAPD Paid At Least $2.9 Million For? It's Barely Touched Them

Quote
In June of 2016, BMW announced it won a contract to supply the Los Angeles Police Department [LAPD] with 100 electric cars—a multi-million-dollar program the chief said “made sense for taxpayers and for the environment.” Hah. The LAPD has barely used them.

Both the local and LAPD leadership talked boldly in 2016 about greener practices and technologies, with Los Angeles Mayor Eric Garcetti telling the Los Angeles Times we “should be thinking green in everything we do.” The LA Times reported that the BMW i3 fleet, made up of 100 cars on lease by LAPD, would cost about $1.4 million over three years—$387 a month per car, according to the story. An additional $1.5 million went into infrastructure investment for electric cars.

But even if the folks in LA are thinking about ways to be green, the practice part seems to be where they’re missing the point. An investigation by CBS Los Angeles found the cars, meant to be used for non-emergency purposes like outreach and police business instead of patrols or chases, haven’t really been used at all.

Records searched by CBS Los Angeles found that the LAPD’s BMWs, many of which have been in use for more than a year, had between a few hundred and a few thousand miles on them. A car that had an in-service date of May 27, 2016 only had 400 miles on it at the time of the investigation, according to the outlet
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 13257
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 159
  • Likes Given: 91
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3181 on: January 20, 2018, 08:30:24 PM »
famous words:  If You Build It, They Will Come (Field of Dreams)

Jalopnik:  That Fleet Of Electric Cars The LAPD Paid At Least $2.9 Million For? It's Barely Touched Them
...

Here’s Electrek’s article on this.  I note from the data shown in the video, it appears only 9 cars had less than 1,000 miles; many had several thousand miles.  But yes, like the general public, it seems the LAPD has some educating to do. 

LAPD is apparently barely using its large fleet of BMW i3 electric vehicles
https://electrek.co/2018/01/18/lapd-bmw-i3-fleet-barely-used/

It would also be good to compare with other fleets of longer-range EVs: 
First look at new Tesla Model S police cars
https://electrek.co/2018/01/16/tesla-model-s-police-cars/ 
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

magnamentis

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1833
    • View Profile
    • Philosophy Ethics Numerology Mikrocirkulation Vaskular Therapie Gesundheit Blut Gesundheit Schmerzen Multiple Sklerose Diabetes Immunsystem Fibromyalgia Modular Mobile Computing iOS Software OSX Android Custom Rom Rooted
  • Liked: 67
  • Likes Given: 104
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3182 on: January 20, 2018, 08:48:09 PM »
most car fires happen due to broken or leaking fuel tubes and in the process fuel dropping onto very hot parts like exhaust etc.

again most cases are due to an  impact of some kind, i.e. accidents and only in very very rare cases, compared to the total number of vehicles, is there another reason than those mentioned.

US - "3% were due to a car crash or rollover"

the wording was "broken or leaking fuel tubes" I.E. accidents so yes, 3% would make for an example but not for the entire story, true that.

of course there are many more ways like brittle rubber tubes, failing joints and seals, human errors like forgetting to tighten screws of the fuel system etc. and last but not least exhaust touching plastic like it was the case with some porsches a few years ago.

the point was that in most cases it's liquids like oil and fuel on very hot parts like exhaust system, no matter what the cause of the leak was and yes it could be breaking fluid and others stuff like dropping insulation material etc. as well.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 08:53:12 PM by magnamentis »
http://magnamentis.com
Knowledge, Understanding & Insight Are Among The Best Sources For Personal Freedom & Vitality !

Bob Wallace

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3573
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 34
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3183 on: January 20, 2018, 09:24:49 PM »
You claimed -

Quote
again most cases are due to an  impact of some kind, i.e. accidents

Buddy

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3325
  • Go DUCKS!!
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 43
  • Likes Given: 20
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3184 on: January 20, 2018, 09:29:18 PM »
https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/906457/BMW-Tesla-Model-3-rival-electric-car-range

BMW coming out with a Tesla 3 competitor in 2021 with 435 mile range and prices similar to the Tesla 3.

By 2025....you can wee why we will likely be talking about cars on the introductory level with about 250 miles of range (instead of 100 - 150 now)....and cars at the high end of 600+ (there is already a manufacturer coming out next year with a car that gets 600 miles of range).

FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Sleepy

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1168
  • Retired, again...
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 73
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3185 on: January 20, 2018, 10:00:03 PM »
.....
People in general imagine that, reality is a bit different.
I once had a heated discussion with a friend. He was upset after seeing someone smoking at a gas station. Everyone would agree, it's stupid. But when I tried to explain that during summer the air/fuel ratio would be off and it's at least a bit safer then. Then he was mad at me. :)

I asked him how many times have you turned off your (open flame) propane fridge in your motor home while refuelling?
-Never.
Has the gas station ever exploded or caught fire?
-No.
Why is that?
Adding an image depicting the flammable air/fuel ratio in closed containers for gasoline and ethanol. In the open air during summer it's almost impossible to ignite gasoline fumes. Only in Hollywood.
But of course gas stations are not in closed containers and even if some part of it would have air which is saturated in fuel vapour at summer air temperature it will be diluted to a flammable mixture by air currents at least in the transition from saturated vapour to surrounding fresh air.
Maybe your friend was exasperated by your lack of logic?
The tanks are. Inside the tank the air/fuel mixture is normally too rich to ignite. The blue temperature area for petrol in the image I attached above is the only area where you can ignite the vapour in a tank.
At the nozzle you can of course find an igniteable air/gas mixture, if you hold your lighter there then your'e simply stupid. If you try to ignite it there anyway, it will normally not ignite the contents of the tank.
A bit further away from the nozzle, like the open flame in my friends fridge or the guy he mentioned (he wasn't filling up his car), it will be almost impossible because the mixture is too lean.
The attached image was from one of many studies made by MSB regarding the risks of fires in gas stations when E85 was introduced in Sweden.
https://www.msb.se/en/
If you wish to read those papers I can probably find them for you. Just ask.

Edit; here's a good example of what not to do. Cold, lighter, nozzle. Wonderfully stupid.

Still no Hollywood flames or explosion though.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 10:19:41 PM by Sleepy »
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
-
Science is a jealous mistress and takes little account of a man's feelings.

Bob Wallace

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3573
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 34
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3186 on: January 20, 2018, 10:15:02 PM »
https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/906457/BMW-Tesla-Model-3-rival-electric-car-range

BMW coming out with a Tesla 3 competitor in 2021 with 435 mile range and prices similar to the Tesla 3.

By 2025....you can wee why we will likely be talking about cars on the introductory level with about 250 miles of range (instead of 100 - 150 now)....and cars at the high end of 600+ (there is already a manufacturer coming out next year with a car that gets 600 miles of range).

There's no need for that sort of range.  It's just unnecessary weight and expense.

Enough range to drive meal to meal.  8 to 12 at 70 mph is 280 miles. 

We need somewhat faster charge rates than we now have. 

'Nuf.

Robotaxis probably need only 100 mile ranges.  If that.  Run the morning commute and work 'part time' until it's time to run the afternoon commute.  Charge up during the day if needed and fully charge at night.

Buddy

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3325
  • Go DUCKS!!
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 43
  • Likes Given: 20
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3187 on: January 20, 2018, 10:35:55 PM »
Quote
We need somewhat faster charge rates than we now have. 

The car that has a 600 mile range....also has a 1 minute charge rate.  I'll see if I can dig up the article from last week...
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Sleepy

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1168
  • Retired, again...
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 73
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3188 on: January 20, 2018, 10:45:25 PM »
Why can't that boring Elon make those cars evade the police, so people can do whatever they want while not driving? Aren't they fast enough? Implement stealth mode?
https://electrek.co/2018/01/20/tesla-driver-passes-out-allegedly-drunk-in-his-model-s-tells-the-police-the-car-was-on-autopilot/
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
-
Science is a jealous mistress and takes little account of a man's feelings.

Bob Wallace

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3573
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 34
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3189 on: January 21, 2018, 01:00:51 AM »
Quote
The car that has a 600 mile range....also has a 1 minute charge rate.

That's so far from what is technologically possible today that bringing it into the discussion has no value.

Find a proven charging system that will do 10% better than Tesla Superchargers and EVs.  If you can find something 10% better, that is proven, then we can extend the speculation.

600 mile range.  Why would anyone need that?  We now drive ICEVs with half that range and we don't complain.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 13257
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 159
  • Likes Given: 91
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3190 on: January 21, 2018, 02:26:22 PM »
Why can't that boring Elon make those cars evade the police, so people can do whatever they want while not driving? Aren't they fast enough? Implement stealth mode?
https://electrek.co/2018/01/20/tesla-driver-passes-out-allegedly-drunk-in-his-model-s-tells-the-police-the-car-was-on-autopilot/

Heh.  Looks like this car did exactly what it was supposed to do:  if you don’t heed its warnings every few minutes to touch the steering wheel, the car pulls over and stops.  On a bridge, that’s guaranteed to get you attention — and medical help, should you need it.

Still waiting for Elon’s Tesla coast-to-coast trip without any human intervention.  Real Soon Now? :)
But you might be right about the “Boring”:  cars on skates in a tunnel are coming in... a year or two?  where you can do whatever (as long as any ICE engine is turned off) — but only for the short time a trip lasts. ;)

[Elon says part of the Los Angeles tunnel should be complete in about a year.  The rest of the infrastructure shouldn’t take too long to build, with all that Musk/LA enthusiasm behind it.]
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sleepy

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1168
  • Retired, again...
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 73
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3191 on: January 21, 2018, 05:55:10 PM »
Cars on skates? Citroen C4:
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
-
Science is a jealous mistress and takes little account of a man's feelings.

Buddy

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3325
  • Go DUCKS!!
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 43
  • Likes Given: 20
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3192 on: January 21, 2018, 09:23:19 PM »
Cost of solar panel........chart.

Now....imagine where cost of battery storage is going.  Just a thought...

FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

numerobis

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 838
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 18
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3193 on: January 21, 2018, 09:53:59 PM »
Seems off-topic for this thread, but I note your graph cuts off in 2013. Might be time to update it.

(It continued to fall, by about half again.)

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 13257
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 159
  • Likes Given: 91
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3194 on: January 22, 2018, 01:51:05 AM »
Cars on skates? Citroen C4:
...

 8) Not quite that exciting!  Cars will ride through the tunnels on “wheeled sleds” or “skates” — not sure the terminology has been settled upon.  ;)
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

gerontocrat

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3889
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 405
  • Likes Given: 9
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3195 on: January 22, 2018, 12:25:41 PM »
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2018/jan/22/switching-to-electric-cars-is-key-to-fixing-americas-critically-insufficient-climate-policies
Quote
Switching to electric cars is key to fixing America's 'critically insufficient' climate policies

Nearly 60% of US carbon pollution comes from power and transportation, and power is already decarbonizing fast

In 2020, the next American president will have to make up the lost ground and come up with a plan to rapidly accelerate the country’s transition away from fossil fuels. Currently, transportation and power generation each account for about 30% of US greenhouse gas emissions, so those sectors represent the prime targets for pollution cuts.

Carbon pollution from electricity is already falling fast


But the power sector is already rapidly decarbonizing because coal can’t compete in the marketplace. In some regions, new wind and solar with battery storage have already become cheaper than continuing to operate existing coal plants, and the International Renewable Energy Agency has concluded that by 2020, “all the renewable power generation technologies that are now in commercial use are expected to fall within the fossil fuel-fired cost range.”
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

Sleepy

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1168
  • Retired, again...
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 73
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3196 on: January 22, 2018, 12:49:31 PM »
Quoting the last section from the article above:
Quote
A price on carbon pollution would accelerate the transition. US gasoline prices remain low at around $2.50 per gallon, which leads to more Americans buying cars with low fuel efficiency. 97% of US car sales are still purely gasoline-powered. The transition to EVs is proceeding slowly, but it’s coming, and it will be a big part of any future American efforts to meet climate targets.
Also adding the numbers linked there. 2017 is still missing though.
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
-
Science is a jealous mistress and takes little account of a man's feelings.

gerontocrat

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3889
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 405
  • Likes Given: 9
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3197 on: January 22, 2018, 02:04:20 PM »
Hullo Sleepy,

Totally off-topic. Never mind.
But took took time out to look at your signature -Omnia Mirari Etiam Tritissima.

Wikipedia says Carl Linnaeus is to blame and suggests 
"OMNIA MIRARI ETIAM TRITISSIMA = "Find wonder in all things, even the most common place" ,
 
and comes from his  "Philosophia Botanica"  and is (sometimes? often?) quoted as a sort of Linnaean "guiding principle".

Google translate comes up with
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima  = All our surprise, was also beaten


Wikipedia says his personal motto was-
 "Innocue vivito, numen adest", "Live righteously- the deity is present."

Google translate comes up with
Innocue vivito, numen adest  = Deity is,     A bit better stab at it?.   

I guess Google's Latin translator needs some work. AI doesn't rule (yet), OK ?

ps: Anyone might think it means you are Swedish.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

numerobis

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 838
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 18
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3198 on: January 22, 2018, 02:41:02 PM »
Quoting the last section from the article above:
Quote
A price on carbon pollution would accelerate the transition. US gasoline prices remain low at around $2.50 per gallon, which leads to more Americans buying cars with low fuel efficiency. 97% of US car sales are still purely gasoline-powered. The transition to EVs is proceeding slowly, but it’s coming, and it will be a big part of any future American efforts to meet climate targets.
Also adding the numbers linked there. 2017 is still missing though.

I'm surprised to see the share not changing from 2014 to 2016, while the industry was reporting large increases in electric car sales.

Buddy

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3325
  • Go DUCKS!!
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 43
  • Likes Given: 20
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3199 on: January 22, 2018, 03:49:47 PM »
Quote
Seems off-topic for this thread, but I note your graph cuts off in 2013. Might be time to update it.

I guess I wasn't very clear...sorry I lost you on that one.

The thrust is that batteries NOW....just like computers over the last 35 years.....or ANY of hundreds of different NEW PRODUCTS.....is going to see a LONG TERM DROP in price.  We have only begun that drop in car batteries....we most likely have a long way to go.

Instead of what most of us are talking about now.....the next 3 - 5 years.....we also need to consider the LONG TERM TREND which again....will likely take batteries to much...much...lower prices and increasing efficiency over the next 10 - 20 years.
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."