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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2200 on: August 10, 2017, 06:57:09 PM »

Platooning, isn't this the infraction formerly known as tailgating?


It's not only illegal in California and Nevada, it creates almost insurmountable problems for others wishing to use the same roadway. Imagine wanting to take an off ramp only to find it blocked by a miles long string of "platooning" trucks. Should an ambulance, or a family off for a Sunday jaunt, be forced to wait while the entire platoon passed through an intersection, or would they end up within such a formation, with no opportunity to pass?


This may save fuel, but our fuel here is electricity from renewable sources, so why not separate the vehicles and allow others the use of the roads that their taxes paid for.


Terry

The platooning would be done on muti-lane, limited access highways, so intersection jams should not occur.  On local roads, they could operate as individual autonomous vehicles.  I doubt anything more than a few trucks per platoon would be allowed; if you want to exit, you would get behind them.  On-ramp encounters might be problematic, although that's no different than when you come upon bunched-up traffic -- that's what merge lanes are built for.  Perhaps the platoon would be prohibited from forming in the right lane?  I'm sure this test would be limited to specific stretches of specific highways.
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2201 on: August 10, 2017, 07:05:51 PM »
Tailgating is illegal due to human reaction time.

TerryM

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2202 on: August 10, 2017, 07:47:29 PM »

Platooning, isn't this the infraction formerly known as tailgating?


It's not only illegal in California and Nevada, it creates almost insurmountable problems for others wishing to use the same roadway. Imagine wanting to take an off ramp only to find it blocked by a miles long string of "platooning" trucks. Should an ambulance, or a family off for a Sunday jaunt, be forced to wait while the entire platoon passed through an intersection, or would they end up within such a formation, with no opportunity to pass?


This may save fuel, but our fuel here is electricity from renewable sources, so why not separate the vehicles and allow others the use of the roads that their taxes paid for.


Terry

The platooning would be done on muti-lane, limited access highways, so intersection jams should not occur.  On local roads, they could operate as individual autonomous vehicles.  I doubt anything more than a few trucks per platoon would be allowed; if you want to exit, you would get behind them.  On-ramp encounters might be problematic, although that's no different than when you come upon bunched-up traffic -- that's what merge lanes are built for.  Perhaps the platoon would be prohibited from forming in the right lane?  I'm sure this test would be limited to specific stretches of specific highways.


Perhaps you've never been stuck behind a military convoy choking a lane out of an already crowded I-15 or I-10. It's not as bad as when they use state highways, say old 66 through Riverside county, but it is a source of frustration to anyone else using the roadway.


This is a bad idea, the only advantage is the savings in fuel due to windage, and the very real danger is that it will turn other roadway users against the whole concept of antonymous vehicles, of which this is but an insignificant, but very visible, proportion.
You can't go cross country pulling double trailers behind a bobtail because of public backlash. People resent and fear these "trains on the highway". A technology that proved itself in the early 60's. We need public acceptance of these new modes of transportation & tailgating "platoons" of semis won't generate good publicity.


Terry

Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2203 on: August 10, 2017, 08:05:50 PM »
Why don't you wait until you know something about how the system might work before you declare it a bad idea, Terry? 

Yesterday I saw someone on another site make a similar claim, based on their assumption that the platoon of trucks would be miles long.

rboyd

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2204 on: August 10, 2017, 09:05:34 PM »
I drive the 401 in Ontario a lot. A major problem is when the faster trucks try to overtake the slower trucks, taking up two out of the three lanes (or both of the only two lanes in some places) resulting in large tailbacks behind them. When they do this on a hill, where the faster truck may be only marginally faster, it is deeply annoying. If the trucks are tailgating, how long will I have to wait for the faster convoy to pass the slower convoy?

I always wonder how much useless crap, which may very well end up in a landfill within a year, is inside those trucks. Incrementally improving the way in which we ship around useless crap just does not seem to be the best idea. It certainly does not fix our larger ecological deficit issues.


TerryM

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2205 on: August 10, 2017, 09:38:22 PM »
Why don't you wait until you know something about how the system might work before you declare it a bad idea, Terry? 

Yesterday I saw someone on another site make a similar claim, based on their assumption that the platoon of trucks would be miles long.


There was a time in my misspent youth when I drove truck in California, 11 Western States and The Full 48, as the regions were then designated. While I never pulled a train, (a bobtail pulling two trailers), I did pull doubles throughout the 11 western states for <2 years & recall some of the difficulties that were entailed whenever exiting the interstate system.
I've been honked at, flipped off, and "squeezed" simply for being too long for other drivers to be comfortable with.


Please explain the upside of running even a two truck "platoon".


Terry


crandles

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2206 on: August 10, 2017, 09:55:50 PM »
Please explain the upside of running even a two truck "platoon".

If they put a maximum of say 6 trucks, and this was well known people could and mainly would adjust their driving to cope.

6 trucks, 1 driver would represent a significant cost saving, but if fully autonomous so no drivers whether 6 individual or 6 platooned this isn't relevant.

A small fuel saving from wind resistance effects, but the main one may well be increasing road capacity. if not platooned, a 2 second gap between each vehicle on the road. If platooned maybe 0.1 second between them which represents more vehicles passing a point in a given time so road can be used by more vehicles before starting to cause congestion.

If this congestion benefit is well communicated and accepted perhaps other drivers will generally not be too antisocial about it.

numerobis

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2207 on: August 10, 2017, 10:08:16 PM »
It's not like trucks don't today draft off each other and form long, impenetrable lines of trucks on the highway. I don't see the problem.

Autonomous trucks can draft closer to each other for the same safety margin, so they get marginally more benefit from it.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2208 on: August 10, 2017, 10:22:55 PM »
Please explain the upside of running even a two truck "platoon".

Driver costs cut by 50%.

A three truck platoon cuts driver costs by 67%.

Plus energy savings in both cases.

Obviously there will need to be some regulation of how long these platoons might be and under what conditions they would be allowed in the 'fast' lane. 

I suspect that as battery powered trucks become self-driving platoons would form and break up as needed.  Slower running (heavier loaded) trucks might form short platoons going uphill or even separate into singles in order to allow other vehicles to more easily pass.  In cities platoons might be kept short in order to aid cars exiting and entering the highway.  On long rural stretches platoons might consist of a lot more trucks.

With self-driving cars we are likely to see the same platooning behavior with cars heading for the same exit/destination grouping themselves and traveling close together. 


TerryM

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2209 on: August 11, 2017, 12:46:12 AM »
Please explain the upside of running even a two truck "platoon".

Driver costs cut by 50%.

A three truck platoon cuts driver costs by 67%.


These are by definition autonomous vehicles, otherwise platooning would be called tailgating which is already illegal.

Plus energy savings in both cases.
What energy would be saved? The small difference that air resistance makes? These are propelled by renewable electricity, not fossil fuel.


Obviously there will need to be some regulation of how long these platoons might be and under what conditions they would be allowed in the 'fast' lane. 

I suspect that as battery powered trucks become self-driving platoons would form and break up as needed.  Slower running (heavier loaded) trucks might form short platoons going uphill or even separate into singles in order to allow other vehicles to more easily pass.  In cities platoons might be kept short in order to aid cars exiting and entering the highway.  On long rural stretches platoons might consist of a lot more trucks.
[/size]

Again, these must be self driving, or else they're simply tailgating.
[/size]

With self-driving cars we are likely to see the same platooning behavior with cars heading for the same exit/destination grouping themselves and traveling close together.
[/size]

I'll set mine for fastest route to destination, but thanks for the option.
Terry

Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2210 on: August 11, 2017, 01:11:52 AM »
Tesla wants to test platooning with a driver in a lead truck.  Tesla does not yet have 100% self-driving.  The other trucks would have no driver but would follow the leader.

Tailgating is illegal because of humans behind the wheel.  Minimum distance between vehicles is set due to human reaction time.  Remove humans and distance between vehicles can be shortened.

Saving energy is saving energy.

With a self-driving car the car will pick the fastest route to destination unless you override the route for reasons such as seeing the scenery. 

Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2211 on: August 11, 2017, 02:16:52 AM »
Also:

- Since these are electric trucks, there are no fumes if you are stuck behind them.
- Since these are electric trucks, they have massive torque at all speeds, so no problem with hills.  Elon Musk has said that in a tug-of-war between a Tesla Semi and a diesel truck, a Tesla would win, pulling the diesel truck backwards... even uphill.  :)
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2212 on: August 11, 2017, 03:13:57 AM »
This is for cars drafting semi-tractor trucks so the numbers are not necessarily transferable to large trucks drafting each other.

On the show MythBusters, drafting behind an 18-wheeler truck was tested and results showed that traveling 100 feet (30 m) behind the truck increased overall mpg efficiency by 11%.[10] Traveling 10 feet (3.0 m) behind the truck produced a 39% gain in efficiency.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drafting_(aerodynamics)#Tailgating_and_hypermiling

In addition, there would be some increased efficiency (additional range) for the leading truck as the low pressure zone normally behind and holding back the vehicle would be moved to the rear of the platoon.

Consider a group of self-driving trucks traveling a long distance.  Periodically the order would be changed so that the same truck was not always in the lead (or bringing up the rear).  A 10% overall energy savings would turn a 200 mile range into a 220 mile range.  A 20% savings would turn 200 miles into 240 miles before needing to charge.


Sigmetnow

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« Reply #2213 on: August 11, 2017, 03:19:41 AM »
Here are quotes from Musk's TED talk in Vancouver. The truck comments are at about 19:30.
(When I clicked on the quote in the transcript, it opened the video at that point, which is pretty cool.)

EM: So this is a heavy duty, long-range semitruck. So it's the highest weight capability and with long range. So essentially it's meant to alleviate the heavy-duty trucking loads. And this is something which people do not today think is possible. They think the truck doesn't have enough power or it doesn't have enough range, and then with the Tesla Semi we want to show that no, an electric truck actually can out-torque any diesel semi. And if you had a tug-of-war competition, the Tesla Semi will tug the diesel semi uphill.
...
 So what will be really fun about this is you have a flat torque RPM curve with an electric motor, whereas with a diesel motor or any kind of internal combustion engine car, you've got a torque RPM curve that looks like a hill. So this will be a very spry truck. You can drive this around like a sports car. There's no gears. It's, like, single speed.
https://www.ted.com/talks/elon_musk_the_future_we_re_building_and_boring/transcript?language=en#t-1245470
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TerryM

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2214 on: August 11, 2017, 08:24:13 AM »
The last run I made in a semi had a Maxidine? 4 speed transmission. Ran from Las Vegas to Los Angeles with two shifts. The ones I drove when it was a full time job had a 15 speed Spicer mated to a straight, naturally aspirated small bore Cummins.
With the Cummins/Spicer pack we had 230 RPM to play with, two shift levers and an electric axle to control the beast, a very unforgiving clutch and unmeshed gears. Driving my friends Mac many years later felt like cruising in a Cadillac. he even had an air conditioner!
Ditching the transmission, which electric power does, will make life for truckers very easy, even if very short.  ::)


Terry

Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2215 on: August 11, 2017, 01:42:45 PM »
The last run I made in a semi had a Maxidine? 4 speed transmission. Ran from Las Vegas to Los Angeles with two shifts. The ones I drove when it was a full time job had a 15 speed Spicer mated to a straight, naturally aspirated small bore Cummins.
With the Cummins/Spicer pack we had 230 RPM to play with, two shift levers and an electric axle to control the beast, a very unforgiving clutch and unmeshed gears. Driving my friends Mac many years later felt like cruising in a Cadillac. he even had an air conditioner!
Ditching the transmission, which electric power does, will make life for truckers very easy, even if very short.  ::)


Terry

There will still be some "truckers."  But it will be an office job!  Remotely monitoring their fleet; they will always be home at night.  And like a (less-stressed :) ) air traffic controller, they can take a break whenever someone else can slip into their chair for a few minutes.

https://techcrunch.com/2017/02/28/starsky-robotics-autonomous-transport-trucks-also-give-drivers-remote-control/
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numerobis

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2216 on: August 11, 2017, 04:50:50 PM »
The job of the dispatcher already exists. It'll be pretty similar to what it is now, but with fewer phone calls and more typing and clicking.

The job of the driver will disappear.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2217 on: August 11, 2017, 07:16:02 PM »
The job of the dispatcher already exists. It'll be pretty similar to what it is now, but with fewer phone calls and more typing and clicking.

The job of the driver will disappear.

Won't the factory computer contact the trucking company's computer with pickup and delivery info and then the trucking company computer schedule a self-driving truck to be loaded by self-driving forklifts at the factory loading dock?


etienne

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2218 on: August 11, 2017, 08:39:43 PM »
I don't believe that the truck driver job will completely disappear. Self driving trucks on highways are quite easy to build, but I'm pretty sure that a driver will enter in the truck when the truck will arrive in the factory or in the storage area.

Same thing with the forklift, I believe that there will be a robot to bring and to take away the items, but that a person will load the trucks for quite a long future. This might not be true on daily lines, but a robot can't see if the load is well balanced and attached in the truck.

numerobis

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2219 on: August 11, 2017, 08:43:25 PM »
a robot can't see if the load is well balanced and attached in the truck.

Anytime someone writes "a robot can't" is an opportunity for the robotics industry to prove someone very wrong.

I'm sure that robots will be built that do a much better job than humans do at this error-prone job.

Bob Wallace

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« Reply #2220 on: August 11, 2017, 08:53:01 PM »
if the load is well balanced

The size and weight of each pallet/container should be known ahead of loading.  A computer can quickly determine the best spot for each item in terms of load balance and when/where it gets unloaded.  The forklift needs to only follow the determined order.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2221 on: August 11, 2017, 09:08:08 PM »
Navistar, Paccar, Other Truck Firms Risk Obsolescence
Traditional trucking industry manufacturers could become obsolete if they don’t start moving more quickly into electric powertrains.

That’s the assessment of analyst Alexander Potter from Piper Jaffray in a report released Tuesday for industry investors.

“Many stocks in our truck coverage are exposed to disruption. Other than Wabco and Tesla we don't recommend buying any of them,” Potter said.

Venerable industry suppliers such as Navistar International Corp., Paccar Inc., Cummins Inc. and Allison Transmission Holdings are among the most “susceptible,” Potter wrote. ...
https://www.trucks.com/2017/08/09/navistar-paccar-risk-obsolescence/

The trucking industry has to embrace electric propulsion fast or face obsolescence
https://electrek.co/2017/08/11/trucking-electric-propulsion-obsolescence/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2222 on: August 12, 2017, 02:12:40 AM »
Talk about extremes!

A total of $9 Billion has been bet against Tesla stock price going up (by way of short interest)... :o ...but when Tesla announced this week it was offering $1.5 billion of bonds for sale (to increase their cash cushion as they spend heavily to ramp up production of the Model 3), $1.8 Billion was purchased, even though the debt has been rated as "junk."  That shows faith that the company will be successful!

Tesla (TSLA) bonds were oversubscribed by $300 million, $1.8 billion raised for Model 3 production
https://electrek.co/2017/08/11/tesla-tsla-bonds-oversubscribed-model-3-production/

Hedge funds lose more than half a billion on wrong-way bet against Tesla
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/03/hedge-funds-set-to-lose-hundreds-of-millions-on-wrong-way-bet-against-tesla.html
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TerryM

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2223 on: August 12, 2017, 03:10:26 AM »
I've long thought that long haul trucking would fall victim to rail. Now I believe that long haul electric trucking occupies a niche that will exist until High Speed Electrified Rail eats it's lunch.
Safer, faster, cheaper, what's not to love?
Terry

Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2224 on: August 12, 2017, 05:35:30 AM »
Perhaps the Hyperloop will eat everyone's lunch.

Moving freight late at night from coast to coast in four hours.  At the least cost of all.

Could happen....

TerryM

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« Reply #2225 on: August 12, 2017, 06:03:43 AM »
Could indeed happen.

etienne

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2226 on: August 12, 2017, 08:14:05 AM »
Perhaps the Hyperloop will eat everyone's lunch.

Moving freight late at night from coast to coast in four hours.  At the least cost of all.

Could happen....

Well, I'm the not believer these days. The Hyperloop has a diameter that is quite small, and for the transport of goods, speed is not so an issue as for people. Furthermore, the hyperloop will face the same problem than railroad which means that you have two handling more of the goods (loading and unloading). In Europe, trailers are transported on trains and this is very efficient.

http://lohr.fr/lohr-railway-system/

Bob Wallace

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« Reply #2227 on: August 12, 2017, 10:40:33 AM »
Consider pod sized for freight containers loaded the factory/warehouse and unloaded at the destination.

Consider moving them using renewable energy in a near vacuum where air resistance is almost absent.  Low energy costs, no driver cost, very short use of container.

I'm just guessing but pods may be able to hold a 7' x 7' x 25' container.  Shipping containers are 8' x 8.5' x 20' or 40'.

I'm not sure it's more efficient to move a container and trailer on and off a transport as opposed to moving only the container.  We don't send trailers on ships.  While I've seen containers and trailers on railroad cars solo containers seems to be the common practice.

etienne

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2228 on: August 12, 2017, 11:52:44 AM »
On European lines, trailers go alone on ships, for example between Germany and Sweden (around 6-7 hours travel). Most transport companies have offices or partners in the different EU countries. This makes it possible that on regular lines, drivers don't have to go so far away from home.
In Europe, container transport is mainly for maritime transport, and when you see them on a truck, you know that the transported goods are coming from or going outside Europe.

SteveMDFP

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2229 on: August 12, 2017, 12:29:28 PM »


Same thing with the forklift, I believe that there will be a robot to bring and to take away the items, but that a person will load the trucks for quite a long future. This might not be true on daily lines, but a robot can't see if the load is well balanced and attached in the truck.

The AI-controlled forklift will have eyes anywhere, connected by bluetooth.  Bluetooth cameras inside the truck cargo hold, with lights.  An efficient system would eliminate human loading.  Humans get tired and inattentive, get hurt, file workman's comp claims.

JayW

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« Reply #2230 on: August 12, 2017, 12:56:47 PM »
I think the fact that Elon Musk has concerns about AI is telling.  Tesla's factory is heavily reliant on robots, I'm sure he has his finger squarely on the pulse. 

Perhaps I'm skeptical of the claims made by AI proponents, but it feels like this technology is being forced upon us without regard to the pitfalls.

I've been a Tesla supporter for a long time, still an, but I don't think self driving cars is necessarily a positive going forward.


Robots are not infallible.

Snippet
A robot at a Michigan factory for bumpers and trailer hitches went rogue, entered an area it was not supposed to be in and killed a human worker, according to a suit.

Wanda Holbrook was a technician at Ventra Ionia, west of Grand Rapids, before her skull was crushed by a machine in July 2015.

A federal suit filed by the 57-year-old’s widower last week said that she was working on one section when a robot from another area “took Wanda by surprise, entering the section she was working in.”

“Upon entering the section, the robot hit and crushed Wanda’s head between a hitch assembly it was attempting to place,” the court papers say.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/suit-michigan-woman-killed-robot-defect-article-1.2997763
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etienne

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2231 on: August 12, 2017, 02:00:57 PM »
From what I learned, saw and experienced, when you want to replace man by a robot, you should not try to copy existing actions and replace them by an automated system. You should think the process again and adapt it to the machine.
So if you want an automatic loading of a trailer, of a container, the loaded device should be adapted in order to allow an easy access and a high stability during transport.
When French engineers created an automated underground train, they placed a wall with doors on the underground dock and the train had to stop so that train's doors and dock's door would be on the same place (just like in an elevator).
Same thing, if you want a full automatic loading of trailers, you'll have to adapt the loading and the loaded device. This could mean compatibility issues when going from one factory to another. This is why I believe that the interface functions will be the  last ones to be automatic. On regular lines, it's quite easy to manage, but for all the punctual trips, this could be a major issue.

Sigmetnow

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« Reply #2232 on: August 12, 2017, 06:28:17 PM »
Hyperloop One on Freight:

My panel at the TRB drew one of the biggest audiences at the conference, as it was focused on the sexy topic of how transformational technologies will shape the future of intermodal freight, a fancy term for the movement of containers via rail, ship and truck without touching the freight itself. Hyperloop has a big role to play in the future of intermodal freight, given that we’re planning to be moving containers and pallets on-demand at speeds far in excess of today’s rail and highway options and far less expensively than by air freight, while integrating as seamlessly as possible with those modes.

Our vision at Hyperloop One is to connect cities into mega-regions, and turn metro areas into metro stops. This will inevitably improve the efficiency of freight supply chains. By connecting two distant metros, Hyperloop One creates a geographical cluster which could help reduce inventory costs, promote even more just-in-time strategies, and expand same-day delivery service areas. And, by extending the effective economic boundary of a city (Fig. 1), firms could have better accessibility to manufacturing hubs and retail stores and save travel time. ...
https://hyperloop-one.com/blog/hyperloop-ones-transport-economist-makes-freight-case


Edit:  the Dubai Hyperloop project
The technology would be used for passenger transport among the different emirates, but there are also plans to assess the feasibility of using the Hyperloop at Dubai’s massive Jebel Ali port. DP World, a port operator, and Hyperloop One just announced a partnership to research the viability of dispatching container cargo from the port to an inland hub through the tubes. The Hyperloop could be situated either under or aboveground. It could also be submerged under water to connect Jebel Ali’s Terminal 4, which will eventually be located on a manmade island, to onshore destinations.

Jebel Ali handles around 19 million shipping containers annually, and is looking to the Hyperloop to help increase this number. Other goals for the technology are to free up space at the port for additional activities and to reduce Dubai’s traffic congestion and the resulting carbon emissions. ...
https://www.citylab.com/life/2016/08/dubai-hyperloop-freight/496394/
« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 06:48:38 PM by Sigmetnow »
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TerryM

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2233 on: August 12, 2017, 06:42:34 PM »
Consider pod sized for freight containers loaded the factory/warehouse and unloaded at the destination.

Consider moving them using renewable energy in a near vacuum where air resistance is almost absent.  Low energy costs, no driver cost, very short use of container.

I'm just guessing but pods may be able to hold a 7' x 7' x 25' container.  Shipping containers are 8' x 8.5' x 20' or 40'.

I'm not sure it's more efficient to move a container and trailer on and off a transport as opposed to moving only the container.  We don't send trailers on ships.  While I've seen containers and trailers on railroad cars solo containers seems to be the common practice.


Exactly. Reinventing the wheel isn't practical. The tor unit is firmly in place and changing it would require the whole world to adapt to a newer, smaller standard.
Terry

Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2234 on: August 12, 2017, 06:51:56 PM »
The AI-controlled forklift will have eyes anywhere, connected by bluetooth.  Bluetooth cameras inside the truck cargo hold, with lights.  An efficient system would eliminate human loading.  Humans get tired and inattentive, get hurt, file workman's comp claims.

The forklift can be fairly dumb.  The shipping agency's computer can quickly determine how to best load the truck/container and guide the forklift item by item.  The forklift has only to follow simple instructions and be programmed to run into nothing.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2235 on: August 12, 2017, 06:57:46 PM »
<snip>

Exactly. Reinventing the wheel isn't practical. The tor unit is firmly in place and changing it would require the whole world to adapt to a newer, smaller standard.
Terry

Sometimes, the wheel just has to be reinvented.  ;)
Say, for airplanes.
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2236 on: August 12, 2017, 06:59:51 PM »
Consider pod sized for freight containers loaded the factory/warehouse and unloaded at the destination.

Consider moving them using renewable energy in a near vacuum where air resistance is almost absent.  Low energy costs, no driver cost, very short use of container.

I'm just guessing but pods may be able to hold a 7' x 7' x 25' container.  Shipping containers are 8' x 8.5' x 20' or 40'.

I'm not sure it's more efficient to move a container and trailer on and off a transport as opposed to moving only the container.  We don't send trailers on ships.  While I've seen containers and trailers on railroad cars solo containers seems to be the common practice.


Exactly. Reinventing the wheel isn't practical. The tor unit is firmly in place and changing it would require the whole world to adapt to a newer, smaller standard.
Terry

There would be no problem putting a slightly smaller container on a flatbed trailer.  Loading a ship with an assortment of larger and smaller containers would be a simple computer arrangement job.  Shippers would pick the smaller container if the load was going to travel by the 'loop at some point.

A second (third?) sized container shouldn't be a huge problem.
---

True about planes.  They have some strange shaped containers that they load in.

gerontocrat

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2237 on: August 12, 2017, 07:18:45 PM »
More, more, more and more of this and that. But even less time to smell the roses.
But if that is what the world wants, so be it.0
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2238 on: August 13, 2017, 09:25:51 PM »
General  Motors will start selling a tiny electric car in China this week that will cost about $5,300 after national and local electric vehicle incentives, according to GM.
http://money.cnn.com/2017/08/07/autos/gm-china-electric-car/index.html

Top speed of 62 miles an hour (100kph), range about 96 miles (155 km).
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2239 on: August 13, 2017, 10:22:55 PM »
General  Motors will start selling a tiny electric car in China this week that will cost about $5,300 after national and local electric vehicle incentives, according to GM.


Top speed of 62 miles an hour (100kph), range about 96 miles (155 km).

It probably wouldn't pass western safety standards (crash cage, airbags) but later on when/if we're all in self-driving cars that just don't hit each other then this could be our city robotaxi.

Cheap, cheap, cheap and cheap to operate.  Really cheap ride, no reason to own a car.

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2240 on: August 14, 2017, 04:44:02 PM »
Porsche now expects 50% of their annual production will be electric cars by 2023.  I suspect they will bump up their expectations in the next few years as costs continue to drop...and battery life continues to improve.  There is a LOT more of this to come....

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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2241 on: August 15, 2017, 04:17:19 AM »
Some electric cars are being heavily discounted up to $20,000 as next-gen EVs come to market
https://electrek.co/2017/08/14/electric-cars-discount-ev/

200 miles (322km) of range seems to be a tipping point for "next-gen" EVs. There was an early Tesla Model S with a 40kWh battery -- the cheapest Model S, you would think it would be a huge seller -- but with a range under 200 miles, there were very few sales.  The model was soon discontinued.
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2242 on: August 15, 2017, 05:26:58 AM »
There was so little interest in the 40 kWh Tesla  S that Tesla never actually made any.  They took some S60s and "unhooked" part of the battery bank, then delivered them as 40 kWh to the few people who had ordered.

I guess if you're paying well over $50k for a car you're pockets are deep enough to spend a few thou more for more usable range.

The current sales on lower range EVs, people who could use one should snap them up.  A new Nissan Leaf for $10k after discounts and rebate?  That's a hell of a deal for someone who needs an affordable commute car.  It should pay for itself in fuel savings in a few years.

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2243 on: August 15, 2017, 07:55:06 PM »
As features and mileage explode, rapid obsolescence and very low resale values might be likely. Not a problem for those that intend to drive to work in the same beast for a few decades, but if resale drops like a rock whenever a new self driving feature, or more efficient drive train presents itself, some may be stuck in their early model Tesla much longer than they would prefer.
A lower entry cost for second hand buyers, but a higher cost over it's ownership period for new car buyers.


It's interesting that Musk missed his buyers not because of the high costs associated with great speed and mileage, but rather with the lowest mileage models that were his least expensive offering. Will this be internalized as a lesson learned, will it be seen as a minimal mileage that must be met, or will it be seen as an aberration that won't effect operations going forward?


Terry




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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2244 on: August 15, 2017, 08:22:07 PM »
The lower range Model S not selling well was likely mostly a factor of the market segment.  If you're rich enough to spend over $70k for a car then coming up with another $10k to $20k is probably not a big deal.

And add in a couple of more things. 

1)  EVs were something new and a lot of people may have had range anxiety anxiety.

2)  When the S40 was offered there was no SuperCharger system.

3)  It wasn't clear how rapidly EV batteries would lose capacity and EVs lose range.

I think Tesla will go after deeper pocket people with the Model 3 in the near future.  Until legitimate competition arrives and there's signs that the $35k+ market is saturating. 

If there's little growth in the size of the entry-luxury (M3/Y) and luxury (MS/X) market and someone (Nissan/Renault?) is offering a 200 mile range EV for less than Tesla's M3 base price then maybe Tesla will find a way to expand downward.

Or perhaps Tesla will prefer to remain a luxury car manufacturer and use the higher margins to develop new ideas.  Leave the lower end (lower profit margin) of the market to other companies.  We already have several car companies that don't offer <$30k cars.

I do expect the base price of the M3 to drop some as the federal subsidy goes away.  Or the MY to come in at a lower than $30k price.  But I don't see Tesla "Corollas".



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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2245 on: August 15, 2017, 08:41:14 PM »

It's interesting that Musk missed his buyers not because of the high costs associated with great speed and mileage, but rather with the lowest mileage models that were his least expensive offering. Will this be internalized as a lesson learned, will it be seen as a minimal mileage that must be met, or will it be seen as an aberration that won't effect operations going forward?


Terry

Here's an examination of the short-range versus the long-range EV market:

The market has very little appetite for short-range BEVs (in other words "demand constrained") and is highly sensitive to the difference between long-range and short-range BEVs. Even Tesla, by officially offering a 40kWh Model S, did not know this fact about the market in 2012. After 2013, no one has any excuse not to know this.
http://tesla.dauger.com/disrupts/longrangeBEVmarket.html
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2246 on: August 15, 2017, 09:37:00 PM »
EV (NEV) sales in China.  Fewer hybrids.  Many more BEVs.

China plug-in sales for Q2 of 2017 and Year-to-Date
We expect shares to follow a positive trend throughout the remainder of the year, with NEV passenger car sales reaching a total of 530,000 units for 2017. This would mean a NEV share of 2,1 % and 48 % growth over 2016. The NEV passenger car sales grow 20 times faster than the car market as a whole.
http://electriccarsreport.com/2017/08/china-plug-sales-q2-2017-year-date/
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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2247 on: August 15, 2017, 10:08:05 PM »
The market has very little appetite for short-range BEVs (in other words "demand constrained")

I'll bet this won't hold if we get to the point of >50 mile range EVs capable of highway speeds and selling for under $10k.

Lots of people buy econoboxes because they want reliability at a low cost. 

GM is selling a 90 mile range EV for $5,300 in China.  The cost would probably have to be higher here in order to meet safety standards.  At $7,500 with a 70 mile range I bet they'd sell tons.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2248 on: August 16, 2017, 04:37:38 PM »
Ford is building 2,500 electric vans for DHL’s delivery service fleet in Germany.

Ford unveils its new electric truck made with DHL
https://electrek.co/2017/08/16/ford-new-electric-truck-dhl/
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etienne

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2249 on: August 16, 2017, 10:01:27 PM »
Luxembourgish Police also get 2 EV
http://www.rtl.lu/letzebuerg/1066535.html