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Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2650 on: November 28, 2017, 03:06:49 AM »
Hey, TerryM:  Good news!

Tesla’s VP of Trucks says they are developing the tech for convoys of three trucks — not mile-long platoons. 
I hope that helps assuage your concerns about causing major disruptions to other folks’ commutes. :)


It does.
My concerns are the concerns of one who drove cross country for a portion of his misspent youth. The all around cameras may relieve some concerns WRT the centered steering position. The reason truckers always back straight or turn to the left when backing is that when turned, the mirrors become totally ineffective.
If cameras were mounted on the trailer this might be mitigated, but keep in mind that trailers are often owned by shippers rather than the transport companies that own or lease the tractors. A particular tractor might pull hundreds of trailers over a year, and the length, volume, and axle positions on the various trailers will vary.
Trucks as envisioned will require a total rollout of rolling stock including all of the trailers.


Most team drivers are married couples that own and operate their own cabs. They prefer decent living quarters as compared to the bolt on doghouses I slept in. A cab designed for short haul, say a day run between Reno and California, isn't optimal for a wild cat freighter running the full 48 while picking up loads from all sources, or a husband/wife team hauling bedbugs, (furniture).
Most or all states allow pulling double trailers, coming upon three of these electronically tethered might cause problems.


This is the greatest change to the industry in my lifetime, I just hope that Musk can deliver something close to what he's promising.
Terry

It feels like you are asking for Tesla to introduce a truck that fits all needs on day one.  That is simply close to impossible.  Tesla is apparently going to start with day cabs and probably with mated trailers (trailers that have cameras and, perhaps individually controllable brakes). 

Later there may be a sleeper cab.  Or drivers may go away so that no team of drivers is needed.  There may be modifications to legacy trailers so that they are Tesla-compatible.  Or maybe they'll just get used by diesel tractors until both get replaced.

Let's see what Tesla delivers in a couple of years and how large a niche that fills.  Then we can wonder about the next model and how large its niche will be.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2651 on: November 28, 2017, 03:13:39 AM »
Quote
According to a report from Nikkei, the Japanese automaker is working on a new battery technology to enable “240 km (150 miles) of range in 15 minutes.


We should make sure we understand the difference between "working on" and "getting ready to deploy".    Personally, I'm getting tired of these legacy car manufacturers who are working on things and showing us crude prototypes of something they might build years from now.

It's time to produce.

numerobis

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2652 on: November 28, 2017, 02:14:51 PM »
Stupid question: How much does it cost to charge your car at a charging station? And how does that compare to fossil fuel? Is the price the same everywhere?

Montreal’s charging stations are the same cost as street parking (they’ve converted some pay parking to charging). Fossil fuel cars pay just as much for street parking, but their tank doesn’t fill up.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2653 on: November 28, 2017, 03:11:53 PM »
Here’s a fun AMA Reddit thread from 2013, when Tesla was new and EV charging was in its infancy. The Managing Director of PlugInsights drove from Mexico to Canada using Tesla superchargers — a real feat at the time.

https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1rm0id/i_just_drove_3121_miles_solo_from_mexico_to/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2654 on: November 28, 2017, 03:31:20 PM »
“It feels like you are asking for Tesla to introduce a truck that fits all needs on day one.  That is simply close to impossible.  Tesla is apparently going to start with day cabs and probably with mated trailers (trailers that have cameras and, perhaps individually controllable brakes).”

A great thing about EVs, including electric trucks, is regenerative braking, which not only obviates the need to use traditional brakes, but recharges the battery as a side effect.  EV drivers generally don't need to apply brakes unless you want to come to a complete stop.  Yes, the Tesla semi and its trailer is heavier — but it also has four motors to “brake” with.  Musk described how truck brakes will no longer need to be replaced like today.

Also, those motors have individual torque control, meaning that “braking” can be applied in fractions of a second to different wheels — completely eliminating the risk of jackknifing, according to Musk.  Add in the automatic lane-keeping* and adaptive cruise control that will be standard on the Tesla truck, and people, particularly those involved in road safety, will be clamoring to replace unsafe, dirty, “stupid” trucks as soon as possible!

Edit: * also Automatic Emergency Braking and Forward Collision Warning

Also: “It survives a nuclear explosion or you get a full refund.”  ;)
« Last Edit: November 28, 2017, 07:00:37 PM by Sigmetnow »
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2655 on: November 28, 2017, 07:06:17 PM »
I do wonder if there might be at least infrequent times when trailer brakes would also be needed.  Panic stops, for example.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2656 on: November 29, 2017, 12:24:10 AM »
I do wonder if there might be at least infrequent times when trailer brakes would also be needed.  Panic stops, for example.

Of course.  If they weren’t needed at all, why install them?  It’s just that today, trucks are constantly needing to replace their brakes, and at the reveal, Musk said Tesla brakes will ”never” need to be replaced....  EVs often offer multiple regen settings, from light to strong, so you can choose one to match your driving style.  I imagine the regen on the Tesla semi will be pretty strong!
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2657 on: November 29, 2017, 12:34:59 AM »
Did Tesla increase the price of a semi truck reservation, to $20,000 from $5,000, because of a large number of reservations, and they want to gauge the seriousness of the reservationists?  Rumor has it (in the comments to the article below) that multiple truck fleets have reserved hundreds of Tesla semi trucks, but have not announced — perhaps because the fleets want to remain on good terms with their diesel truck manufacturers for the few years they have left....

Tesla Semi gets 10 more electric truck orders from delivery giant DHL, bringing reported total to ~200
https://electrek.co/2017/11/28/tesla-semi-electric-truck-orders-delivery-giant-dhl/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2658 on: November 29, 2017, 06:29:56 PM »
More numbers for the EV vs. ICE comparison:  the EPA uses 1 gallon [3.79 liters] of gasoline = 33.7 kWh.

Tesla Model 3 gets official EPA rating of 310 miles and 126 MPGe
https://electrek.co/2017/11/29/tesla-model-3-official-epa-rating/
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TerryM

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2659 on: November 30, 2017, 12:27:26 AM »
I do wonder if there might be at least infrequent times when trailer brakes would also be needed.  Panic stops, for example.


Trailer brakes are required in many, non emergency situations. If you've ever noticed the two flexible hoses running from the cab to the trailer, they're the air hoses that power the trailer brakes. they're required in every jurisdiction, and trailer brakes are extensively used.


They operate separately from the cab brakes, controlled by a hand lever. When no air pressure is present the trailer brakes are locked on, and increased air pressure increases the brakes release. By law their operation needs to be separate from the cab brakes.


To alleviate jackknifing on slippery roads the trailer brakes are applied in preference to and prior to the cab brakes, allowing the trailer to slow the cab. Jackknifing can occur when the trailer brakes lock up, or when the cab brakes are used too heavily in an attempt to slow the much heavier trailer.


If the Tesla truck is equipped with an air compressor, which I assume it will be, there should be no problem. Without an air compressor a tesla truck will only be able to haul a tesla trailer, and many laws will need to be re-written.
Just how efficiently regenerating brakes will work, if a non tesla trailer is being hauled, is anyone's guess. If Tesla trailers are not equipped with airbrakes no other cabs could pull them even in a yard, or an emergency situation.


Will high wattage cables running from the trailer's rear axle, flexing through the gap between cab and trailer, and then on to the battery be required on Tesla trailers? Will Tesla trailers carry the weight and expense of both rejuvenating brakes and air brakes?


Terry

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2660 on: November 30, 2017, 01:32:18 AM »
I do wonder if there might be at least infrequent times when trailer brakes would also be needed.  Panic stops, for example.
Trailer brakes are required in many, non emergency situations. If you've ever noticed the two flexible hoses running from the cab to the trailer, they're the air hoses that power the trailer brakes. they're required in every jurisdiction, and trailer brakes are extensively used.

<snip>

Terry

Terry,
Regenerative braking, associated with the use of electric motors, will replace most of the need for traditional brakes.  Just letting up on the “accelerator pedal,” or the truck systems electronically reacting to a closing distance to a vehicle in front, applies a distinct braking action via regen (and recharges the EV battery as a bonus).  Electronic control of the torque of each of the four motors (wheels) on the Tesla semi cab will completely eliminate jackknifing, per Tesla. 

Although the Tesla semi does have traditional brakes, they should never have to be replaced, per Musk, because they will be used so little.  How often do truckers have to replace brakes today?  That should give you an idea of the extent of the difference in the technology that is involved.
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2661 on: November 30, 2017, 02:41:52 AM »
Tesla's truck brakes will be like nothing ever seen before in a truck.  Each of the four driven wheels can be individually controlled.  Sped up or slowed down. 

Elon said that the braking system would eliminate jackknifing. 

If needed Tesla could separate the air lines running to the trailer brakes so that each side could be operated individually but they feel that will not be necessary.

Will the regen brakes be enough to stop the trailer in all but panic stop conditions?  Those motors are strong enough to haul the trailer up the mountain, they'll be strong enough to slow it down and stop it going down the mountain.

Sigmetnow

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« Reply #2662 on: November 30, 2017, 03:07:39 AM »
<snip>
Will the regen brakes be enough to stop the trailer in all but panic stop conditions?  Those motors are strong enough to haul the trailer up the mountain, they'll be strong enough to slow it down and stop it going down the mountain.

If the spinning magnets in those four motors can accelerate a fully-loaded Tesla semi + trailer (80,000 lbs; 36,000 kg) from 0 to 60 mph in 20 seconds, as claimed, I figure they must be able to apply an approximately equal amount of reverse force. 
Keep those seatbelts on!  ;D
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Jim Hunt

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2663 on: November 30, 2017, 08:37:41 AM »
Getting back to this side of the Atlantic and all those cars, cars and more cars once again.

I had a long conversation with Francisco Carranza, Managing Director of Renault-Nissan Energy Services, before his on stage interview at the Renewable Futures & Green Energy Awards event in Bath on Tuesday. Much of what we discussed is unfortunately not for public consumption just yet, but I can reveal that during his interview he did say words to the effect that:

Quote
Electric vehicles are assets to the grid.

https://twitter.com/V2gUK/status/935571429441105922
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2664 on: November 30, 2017, 08:56:32 AM »
Quote
Electric vehicles are assets to the grid.

They certainly should be.  At the least EVs should replace demand that is being lost to behind the meter solar.

A higher value should come from EVs serving as movable/dispatchable loads.  Useful for matching supply and demand.  By charging when demand is low compared to supply EVs should help avoid the need for storage and provide price support. 

Keeping the price from tanking during times like late at night will create a better economic argument for adding more inexpensive wind.  That, in turn, should mean more wind generation available at other times which should lead to lower electricity costs.

TerryM

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2665 on: November 30, 2017, 09:47:48 AM »

If the spinning magnets in those four motors can accelerate a fully-loaded Tesla semi + trailer (80,000 lbs; 36,000 kg) from 0 to 60 mph in 20 seconds, as claimed, I figure they must be able to apply an approximately equal amount of reverse force. 
Keep those seatbelts on!  ;D


It's not a case of the ability of the brakes to stop the wheels from turning, it's the ability of the tires to grip the pavement when slowing 40 tons down to a halt. Brakes on every axle are required to safely stop a truck within a reasonable distance. Air brakes on the cab, a Jake Brake on the rear axles of the cab (engine compression brakes), and most importantly trailer brakes on ever axle. Each system is completely independent and is independently controlled.


Musk's acceleration claims are one of the difficulties I have with his claims. How will he keep the tires from smoking like a quarter mile car?


I've lit my trailer brakes on fire when under loaded, but dropping off an unexpectedly steep slope. It's not that uncommon an event. Timber haulers have water tanks to soak and cool the tires and brakes for just this reason.


Whatever trailers a Tesla hauls will require a separate braking system. If they are a part of the regeneration system it will require cables running back to the battery, and these cables will need to carry quite a heavy load. If running with the air brakes currently required, the amount of regeneration will be limited to the cab's brakes.


Does anyone know if the Tesla truck is sporting an air compressor?


Terry

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2666 on: November 30, 2017, 10:04:25 AM »
Trailer brakes are required in many, non emergency situations. If you've ever noticed the two flexible hoses running from the cab to the trailer, they're the air hoses that power the trailer brakes. they're required in every jurisdiction, and trailer brakes are extensively used.

They operate separately from the cab brakes, controlled by a hand lever. When no air pressure is present the trailer brakes are locked on, and increased air pressure increases the brakes release. By law their operation needs to be separate from the cab brakes.

To alleviate jackknifing on slippery roads the trailer brakes are applied in preference to and prior to the cab brakes, allowing the trailer to slow the cab. Jackknifing can occur when the trailer brakes lock up, or when the cab brakes are used too heavily in an attempt to slow the much heavier trailer.

Terry
Terry thanks for your informative post, as I have zero knowledge of trucks. Reading this makes me wonder whether the Tesla feature of avoiding jackknifing is really a Tesla must-have in order to use regenerative braking. If trailer brakes are applied in preference or jointly with the truck brakes, lots of energy will be lost and official and actual range goes down accordingly. It seems Tesla designed the truck so that its own brakes will be used in all but emergency situations.

TerryM

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2667 on: November 30, 2017, 11:01:03 AM »
Trailer brakes are required in many, non emergency situations. If you've ever noticed the two flexible hoses running from the cab to the trailer, they're the air hoses that power the trailer brakes. they're required in every jurisdiction, and trailer brakes are extensively used.

They operate separately from the cab brakes, controlled by a hand lever. When no air pressure is present the trailer brakes are locked on, and increased air pressure increases the brakes release. By law their operation needs to be separate from the cab brakes.

To alleviate jackknifing on slippery roads the trailer brakes are applied in preference to and prior to the cab brakes, allowing the trailer to slow the cab. Jackknifing can occur when the trailer brakes lock up, or when the cab brakes are used too heavily in an attempt to slow the much heavier trailer.

Terry
Terry thanks for your informative post, as I have zero knowledge of trucks. Reading this makes me wonder whether the Tesla feature of avoiding jackknifing is really a Tesla must-have in order to use regenerative braking. If trailer brakes are applied in preference or jointly with the truck brakes, lots of energy will be lost and official and actual range goes down accordingly. It seems Tesla designed the truck so that its own brakes will be used in all but emergency situations.
Thanks for your kind words, but a cab's brakes just can't stop a fully loaded trailer.


I have to assume that Tesla is planning to limit his cabs to pulling Tesla trailers, otherwise his claims make little sense. Whatever is planned, every axle requires brakes, and the present systems are redundant in the sense that if air pressure is lost, the brakes are applied to all axles, and if a "Glad Hand" connection to the trailer fails, the trailer brakes lock up.
To comply with today's laws trailer air brakes are required, with independent control. One more safeguard against runaway trucks. This of course cuts into Tesla's regenerative braking.
Wide acceptance can't occur without all the trailers out there being replaced or heavily modified, a large expense for every shipper.
They're sometimes referred to as "18 Wheelers", that's 3 axles under the cab and 2 axles under the trailer. 8 wheels are presently powered, so Musk's 4 motors is no improvement over what is presently used.


I'd love to see trucks like these plying the highways, but why would anyone prefer to back up relying on cameras, when sticking your head out of the widow works fine, as long as the driver isn't shunted to the middle of the cab? I wish I could believe everything Musk has said.


Here in Ontario every truck is governed down to 100K/hr or 62MPH, so Tesla's high speeds won't be applicable. I believe some states have lower speed limits for trucks, most were limited to 55MPH when I was driving.


Terry

Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2668 on: November 30, 2017, 06:12:27 PM »
“I have to assume that Tesla is planning to limit his cabs to pulling Tesla trailers...”

It does not appear that this will be the case. Musk explained that the movable panels on the back of the Tesla cab adjust automatically to the width of any “other trailer” behind it, to improve drag.


Of course the vehicle’s range depends on regenerative braking — all EVs do.


“...a cab’s brakes just can’t stop a fully-loaded trailer.”

With traditional brakes, no.  But electric motors allow a whole other braking “surface” and force — which an EV motor can do because the rotor spins without touching the other magnets.  Unlike combustion engines. 
And individual wheel torque control results in maximum braking potential, as that force, on each wheel, changes in micro-seconds to assure the maximum force possible up to the point where they sense the wheels beginning to spin or lock up.  This vastly improves acceleration as well as braking.


You cannot see what is immediately behind a trailer by sticking your head out the window.  You need a camera behind you to see what’s out of view. :)
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2669 on: November 30, 2017, 06:19:44 PM »
Here’s why Tesla can’t bring out a pickup truck until after 2020.  ;) ;D

Analysis of Google Street view images:
"... if the number of sedans in a neighborhood is greater than the number of pickups, there is an 88 percent chance that the precinct will vote Democratic. Transpose those numbers to have more pickups than sedans and there is an 82 percent chance a precinct will vote Republican"

https://twitter.com/metacool/status/935726800528990208
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Bob Wallace

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« Reply #2670 on: November 30, 2017, 06:26:40 PM »
Terry, I don't think you fully appreciate the ability of an electric vehicle to monitor the traction of each driven wheel and adjust the power going to/from it.  The left wheel can brake while the right wheel accelerates if that is what is needed at the moment.  Torque vectoring allows for a level of control one simply does not have with a brake pedal pushing on a hydraulic master cylinder.

Trailer braking may be necessary at times and I'm sure there's an air compressor in the tractor.  Trailer brakes may be individually controlled if that is needed.  Running separate air lines is a small modification to the basic trailer brake system.

Cables from motors to batteries to carry the power from regen back to the batteries will be large enough since they carry enough power from the batteries to the wheels to accelerate a fully loaded trailer from 0 to 60 in 20 seconds and an unloaded trailer from 0 to 60 in 5 seconds.

Quote
Jackknifing can occur when the trailer brakes lock up, or when the cab brakes are used too heavily

That sounds like operator error to me.  With properly written software those problems should not happen in an automated braking system.  The computer will know the total rig weight (force needed to move the rig on level ground), the slope of the road ahead along with curves and their radius, the weather conditions, individual driven wheel traction levels.  With properly written software the truck should keep itself within the limits of what is needed for a safe and controlled stop.

There may be, at times, the need for a panic stop.  A boulder falling from a hillside.  The truck will act faster than a human driver and will then use trailer brakes along with tractor reg and mechanical brakes to stop.

I'm aiming the rest of this comment only partially at you, Terry.  I see a lot of other people engage in the same criticism/doubt. 

Why do people think Tesla engineers and engineers working on self-driving systems at many other companies dumb? 

Don't they realize that as part of the design process many engineers have dug through the available data on what causes crashes.  They've talked to experienced drivers to get their take on the problems encountered when driving.  They've done mathematical models of the physics involved in keeping trucks from running into stuff.  They've built test systems and tested them.

Tesla has converted diesel rigs to battery powered trucks by taking out the engines/transmissions and replacing them with batteries and electric motors.  They've been running loads from their Reno (up in the mountains) battery factory to their Fremont (down at sea level) car factory. 

They've taken those  rigs to test tracks, loaded up, and pushed the limits to see where traction and braking fail.

Being skeptical is fine.  But if you don't know how to do something that experts say that they can do why not phrase it in terms of "I don't understand how this will work" rather than state that something won't work when you don't know that.



Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2671 on: November 30, 2017, 06:31:54 PM »
Here's an example, Terry...

Quote
Thanks for your kind words, but a cab's brakes just can't stop a fully loaded trailer.

Elon Musk says that their tractor's brakes can.  They've road tested their system. 

Your experience is with mechanical brakes and inferior human processing.  You simply do not know whether or not Tesla's trucks can stop a fully loaded rig going down a mountain.  Tesla has done it.

Apparently Tesla's system can keep trailers from jackknifing.  That's what Tesla is saying and there are severe economics if they are lying.  Tesla has tested their system and they are comfortable making the claim.

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2672 on: November 30, 2017, 06:40:22 PM »
Quote
You cannot see what is immediately behind a trailer by sticking your head out the window.

I suspect not many drivers stick their heads out the right side window while the truck is moving.

With only three cameras and three small screens drivers will be able to see what they would see were they sticking their head out of the rear window of a cab with no trailer attached.  A continuous view from the driver's side door, across the area behind the tractor, and all the way back to the right side door.

The only other time one gets a view like that is by standing up in the bed of a pickup truck.

And the truck's computer will be monitoring those views, along with the other 180 degrees of what surrounds the truck continuously.  It won't move its attention from the road ahead to the driver's side mirror to see if there's room to make a lane change and possibly miss a deer coming out of the bushes on the right.

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2673 on: November 30, 2017, 07:22:31 PM »
Terry M:
Quote
To comply with today's laws trailer air brakes are required, with independent control. One more safeguard against runaway trucks. This of course cuts into Tesla's regenerative braking.

The tesla semi has air brakes. Take a look at this video of the inner workings of the semi. At around 1:00 you can see a group of air lines. Somewhere around 2:30 the video focuses on what might be an air pressure regulator indicating 10bar pressure.




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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2674 on: November 30, 2017, 07:34:48 PM »
Quote
You cannot see what is immediately behind a trailer by sticking your head out the window.

I suspect not many drivers stick their heads out the right side window while the truck is moving.

With only three cameras and three small screens drivers will be able to see what they would see were they sticking their head out of the rear window of a cab with no trailer attached.  A continuous view from the driver's side door, across the area behind the tractor, and all the way back to the right side door.

The only other time one gets a view like that is by standing up in the bed of a pickup truck.

And the truck's computer will be monitoring those views, along with the other 180 degrees of what surrounds the truck continuously.  It won't move its attention from the road ahead to the driver's side mirror to see if there's room to make a lane change and possibly miss a deer coming out of the bushes on the right.


I'm going to address these in reverse order to which they've been posted.


Drivers almost always jack trailers to the left when backing up. This is because, as you mention it's very difficult to stick your head out of the right hand window. Drivers certainly do stick their heads out of their window while a truck is moving backwards around a bend, ie when parking a trailer or backing into a loading dock.
If one stood in the back of a pickup pulling a full size trailer, all he would see is the front of the trailer - not very helpful.
An expansive camera system could certainly give you any view you wish, but semi's have safely been plying our highways for many decades without this complication, because the driver sat against the far left of the cab.
Terry

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2675 on: November 30, 2017, 07:57:11 PM »
Terry M:
Quote
To comply with today's laws trailer air brakes are required, with independent control. One more safeguard against runaway trucks. This of course cuts into Tesla's regenerative braking.

The tesla semi has air brakes. Take a look at this video of the inner workings of the semi. At around 1:00 you can see a group of air lines. Somewhere around 2:30 the video focuses on what might be an air pressure regulator indicating 10bar pressure.




Thanks, I hadn't thought to search for a Tesla truck video.


In the comments the videographer notes that this has standard drum brakes!!
So much for regeneration, but also an end to my harping on the braking problems, and the need for special trailers. Perhaps the regeneration is limited to a Jake Brake like effect, just as a conventional tractor might use for slowing a rig on a long downward slope?


Now if they'd just slide the driver's seat to the left. :)
Terry

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« Reply #2676 on: November 30, 2017, 08:11:54 PM »
Here's an example, Terry...

Quote
Thanks for your kind words, but a cab's brakes just can't stop a fully loaded trailer.

Elon Musk says that their tractor's brakes can.  They've road tested their system. 

Your experience is with mechanical brakes and inferior human processing.  You simply do not know whether or not Tesla's trucks can stop a fully loaded rig going down a mountain.  Tesla has done it.

Apparently Tesla's system can keep trailers from jackknifing.  That's what Tesla is saying and there are severe economics if they are lying.  Tesla has tested their system and they are comfortable making the claim.
Please check out ghoti's reply below. Tesla is using standard air brakes on all axles. No problems slowing down, but limited regeneration.
Just for the record a cab just doesn't have enough contact with the road to slow a loaded trailer at speed. Tesla's reliance on air brakes at every axle, including the trailer proves my assertion.
I've picked a cab up >45 degrees when trying to take off with a full load on a San Francisco hill. A wheel stand with an 18 wheeler if you would. These weights are nothing to sneeze at.
Terry

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« Reply #2677 on: November 30, 2017, 08:42:38 PM »
Terry, I don't think you fully appreciate the ability of an electric vehicle to monitor the traction of each driven wheel and adjust the power going to/from it.  The left wheel can brake while the right wheel accelerates if that is what is needed at the moment.  Torque vectoring allows for a level of control one simply does not have with a brake pedal pushing on a hydraulic master cylinder.

Trailer braking may be necessary at times and I'm sure there's an air compressor in the tractor.  Trailer brakes may be individually controlled if that is needed.  Running separate air lines is a small modification to the basic trailer brake system.

Cables from motors to batteries to carry the power from regen back to the batteries will be large enough since they carry enough power from the batteries to the wheels to accelerate a fully loaded trailer from 0 to 60 in 20 seconds and an unloaded trailer from 0 to 60 in 5 seconds.

Quote
Jackknifing can occur when the trailer brakes lock up, or when the cab brakes are used too heavily

That sounds like operator error to me.  With properly written software those problems should not happen in an automated braking system.  The computer will know the total rig weight (force needed to move the rig on level ground), the slope of the road ahead along with curves and their radius, the weather conditions, individual driven wheel traction levels.  With properly written software the truck should keep itself within the limits of what is needed for a safe and controlled stop.

There may be, at times, the need for a panic stop.  A boulder falling from a hillside.  The truck will act faster than a human driver and will then use trailer brakes along with tractor reg and mechanical brakes to stop.

I'm aiming the rest of this comment only partially at you, Terry.  I see a lot of other people engage in the same criticism/doubt. 

Why do people think Tesla engineers and engineers working on self-driving systems at many other companies dumb? 

Don't they realize that as part of the design process many engineers have dug through the available data on what causes crashes.  They've talked to experienced drivers to get their take on the problems encountered when driving.  They've done mathematical models of the physics involved in keeping trucks from running into stuff.  They've built test systems and tested them.

Tesla has converted diesel rigs to battery powered trucks by taking out the engines/transmissions and replacing them with batteries and electric motors.  They've been running loads from their Reno (up in the mountains) battery factory to their Fremont (down at sea level) car factory. 

They've taken those  rigs to test tracks, loaded up, and pushed the limits to see where traction and braking fail.

Being skeptical is fine.  But if you don't know how to do something that experts say that they can do why not phrase it in terms of "I don't understand how this will work" rather than state that something won't work when you don't know that.
(Almost) every time I try a long string of quotes they end up trashed. :-X
Let me just direct your attention to goti's post.
No semi runs with hydraulic brakes. There are only two axles attached to motors, no where near enough rubber on the road to stop a loaded truck. Fortunately Musk's people are aware of this and rely on air brakes, which was my contention above. Why Musk claims that these brakes won't wear out is between him and his lawyers.
Terry

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« Reply #2678 on: November 30, 2017, 08:54:09 PM »
Quote
Why Musk claims that these brakes won't wear out is between him and his lawyers.
Terry
Tesla is making and selling semi tractors not trailers. The tractor's brakes will wear much much less than that of a diesel's because of regen braking (which is like engine braking without the noise and therefore limitations to use). His statement about brake life can only be applied to the brakes on the tractor.

Also how foolish would we be to not assume Tesla has hired the best truck engineers available? Who would kid themselves into believing the consultations with the trucking industry would be ignored by Tesla?

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« Reply #2679 on: November 30, 2017, 09:06:17 PM »
“I have to assume that Tesla is planning to limit his cabs to pulling Tesla trailers...”

It does not appear that this will be the case. Musk explained that the movable panels on the back of the Tesla cab adjust automatically to the width of any “other trailer” behind it, to improve drag.


Of course the vehicle’s range depends on regenerative braking — all EVs do.


“...a cab’s brakes just can’t stop a fully-loaded trailer.”

With traditional brakes, no.  But electric motors allow a whole other braking “surface” and force — which an EV motor can do because the rotor spins without touching the other magnets.  Unlike combustion engines. 
And individual wheel torque control results in maximum braking potential, as that force, on each wheel, changes in micro-seconds to assure the maximum force possible up to the point where they sense the wheels beginning to spin or lock up.  This vastly improves acceleration as well as braking.


You cannot see what is immediately behind a trailer by sticking your head out the window.  You need a camera behind you to see what’s out of view. :)


Since discovering that Tesla is using air brakes, just like every other truck on the road, I've rescinded my objections. A Tesla can pull standard trailers because it's using standard braking systems. The 2 axles using regenerative braking are the same two that a diesel unit uses when applying a Jake Brake, again, pretty standard stuff.
Not quite what many of us though we were hearing, but infinitely more believable.


The object of watching with your head out isn't to see what's behind the trailer, but rather to gauge the angle you're trailer's at compared to the slot you want to put her in. How far your 5th wheel is strung out, and the location of the trailers axles all make a difference. I've seen others able to push a set of doubles into narrow slots at 90 degrees to the cab - far above my pay grade. I couldn't keep a set of doubles aligned for more than 20 feet backing straight, :-\  but I was just a kid. :D


Terry

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« Reply #2680 on: November 30, 2017, 09:15:36 PM »
Quote
Why Musk claims that these brakes won't wear out is between him and his lawyers.
Terry
Tesla is making and selling semi tractors not trailers. The tractor's brakes will wear much much less than that of a diesel's because of regen braking (which is like engine braking without the noise and therefore limitations to use). His statement about brake life can only be applied to the brakes on the tractor.

Also how foolish would we be to not assume Tesla has hired the best truck engineers available? Who would kid themselves into believing the consultations with the trucking industry would be ignored by Tesla?


Total agreement, but the damn front axle brakes aren't going to last forever.
We, as tractor owners, always tried to put the wear on the trailer brakes, makes for a smoother stop anyway, right? :)
I was going to tell a story about passing a golf course and hitting the Jake. But some here might appreciate golf.


You sound as though you may have driven at one time. Any thoughts on losing left side window access when jacking her into a slot?


Terry

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« Reply #2681 on: November 30, 2017, 09:17:48 PM »
Quote
Drivers certainly do stick their heads out of their window while a truck is moving backwards around a bend, ie when parking a trailer or backing into a loading dock.

Drivers get up out of their seats, climb over the hump in the middle of the cab, and stick their head out of the right side window of moving trucks?

How do they operate the accelerator, clutch and brakes when they're on the opposite side of the cab?

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« Reply #2682 on: November 30, 2017, 09:19:22 PM »
Quote
Total agreement, but the damn front axle brakes aren't going to last forever.

Actually Tesla truck mechanical brakes may last close to forever.  The vast majority of braking is regen.  (Learn how regenerative braking works.)

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« Reply #2683 on: November 30, 2017, 09:21:49 PM »
Quote
Since discovering that Tesla is using air brakes, just like every other truck on the road, I've rescinded my objections.

Tesla trucks will have the option of mechanical brakes for tractor and trailer.  Must says they won't be needed during routine operation. 

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« Reply #2684 on: November 30, 2017, 09:23:58 PM »
Quote
Drivers certainly do stick their heads out of their window while a truck is moving backwards around a bend, ie when parking a trailer or backing into a loading dock.

Drivers get up out of their seats, climb over the hump in the middle of the cab, and stick their head out of the right side window of moving trucks?

How do they operate the accelerator, clutch and brakes when they're on the opposite side of the cab?


What part of the bolded did you miss?


No Mas, for the moment.
Terry

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« Reply #2685 on: November 30, 2017, 09:28:27 PM »
I missed nothing.  I was simply trying to get you to understand that drivers using mirrors have a very limited field of view back of their doors.  You try to always back in the same direction because you have poor views of anywhere else.  And you need to stay in your seat as you move the truck.

The only way to see if someone has parked behind you is to get out of the cab and walk to the back of the trailer.

Three cameras and you can see everything from the doors back - all at the same time. 

Sigmetnow

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« Reply #2686 on: November 30, 2017, 11:25:16 PM »
Detailed article on regenerative braking at the link below.

“Single-pedal speed control is simply the control of both acceleration and deceleration with a single pedal.  Traditionally this has been done with two pedals, as the slowing system (hydraulic friction brakes) was always completely separate from the motive system (the internal combustion engine).  When electrics first starting appearing (and magnetic forces in the motor could be used to slow the car as well as drive it), EV manufacturers continued to use two separate pedals for go and slow, so that driving an EV would be the same as driving a conventional car.  The emphasis was recovering energy more than exploiting a better way to control the speed of the car.  With this traditional system, as the EV driver depresses the brake pedal, first magnetic braking [regen] is engaged, and as the pedal is pushed harder, the friction brakes also come into play. ...

The electric motor as a braking force
In virtually all street EVs today, the electric motor is directly connected to the drive wheels via a single-speed transmission—and no clutch.  When the motor turns, the wheels turn.  When the car is rolling, the motor is turning.  When the EV is “coasting,” the motor is turning (albeit without using electricity), and acting like a flywheel.  Make the motor speed up—the car speeds up.  And if you decrease the motor speed, the car slows.  A single pedal can control the motor speed—up or down, so it makes no sense to control the motor with two different pedals.  With single-pedal speed control, the emphasis has shifted to using the braking power of the motor to enhance the driving experience. ...”
http://www.bmwblog.com/2015/07/10/a-magnetic-braking-primer-bmw-i3-versus-tesla-70d/
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Sigmetnow

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« Reply #2687 on: December 01, 2017, 02:38:30 AM »
The only way I think this might happen is using limited, geo-fenced service areas.

GM's Self-Driving Cars to Be Ready for Ride-Sharing in 2019
Quote
General Motors Co. plans to have its self-driving cars ready for a ride-share service within two years as the automaker looks beyond traditional car ownership for new tech-driven sources of revenue
...
Ammann told analysts and investors Thursday that GM’s plan to get self-driving cars to market in large numbers could drop the costs of ride-sharing under $1 a mile by 2025.  Once that happens, he said, 75 percent of the miles people drive could be through sharing or hailing services. That’s a $1.6 trillion market, which is 300 times larger than today, he said. ...
https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2017-11-30/gm-sees-self-driving-ride-share-service-ready-for-roads-in-2019
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« Reply #2688 on: December 01, 2017, 05:30:26 AM »
The only way I think this might happen is using limited, geo-fenced service areas.

GM's Self-Driving Cars to Be Ready for Ride-Sharing in 2019
Quote
General Motors Co. plans to have its self-driving cars ready for a ride-share service within two years as the automaker looks beyond traditional car ownership for new tech-driven sources of revenue
...
Ammann told analysts and investors Thursday that GM’s plan to get self-driving cars to market in large numbers could drop the costs of ride-sharing under $1 a mile by 2025.  Once that happens, he said, 75 percent of the miles people drive could be through sharing or hailing services. That’s a $1.6 trillion market, which is 300 times larger than today, he said. ...
https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2017-11-30/gm-sees-self-driving-ride-share-service-ready-for-roads-in-2019

Service areas would probably be software limited.  Only areas that had been adequately mapped would be open for self-driving.

Tesla is likely to get way out in front of all other companies since every car it makes now is a data-gathering platform.  Tesla expects to get about 10 billion miles of data in the first year that the Model 3 starts delivering in quantity.

Sigmetnow

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« Reply #2689 on: December 01, 2017, 10:15:32 PM »
The Union of Concerned Scientists has a new report focusing on monetary savings of EVs in 50 large US cities.

”EVs are cheaper than gasoline-powered cars to fuel and drive.”

Going From Pump to Plug (2017)
Adding Up the Savings from Electric Vehicles (EVs)
Quote
The annual savings range from $440 to over $1,070 per year, depending on the electricity provider, the choice of electricity rate plan, and the local cost of gasoline.
http://www.ucsusa.org/clean-vehicles/electric-vehicles/ev-fuel-savings
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Sigmetnow

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« Reply #2690 on: December 03, 2017, 01:31:46 AM »
EV deliveries in the U.S. continued to climb in November.

Quote
Plug-in electric vehicles sales continued to assault the record books in the US in November, as deliveries rose for the 26th consecutive month, lead by the Chevrolet Bolt EV, which moved almost 3,000 copies in November, leading all plug-in offerings for the 2nd month in a row (and 3 out of the past 4).

Building on October’s 33% gain (with more than 14,000 sales), the end of the year buying rush has started to take hold…this despite the fact that the Tesla Model 3 has had some early production “bottlenecks” which have limited deliveries thus far, and the new 2018 Nissan LEAF has only managed to launch in  Japan thus far. ...
Data will be completed over the next few days here:  https://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/
But the five top sellers are shown in the image below.

Tesla delivered 345 Model 3 cars in November, for a total of 712 (as best as can be determined, because Tesla doesn’t release their own monthly stats.  See text in the link above for details.)
Note that the third month of a quarter is historically a big month for Model S and X deliveries in the U.S.

Chevy Bolt EV US sales hit new records – reaching over 20,000 units to date
https://electrek.co/2017/12/01/chevy-bolt-ev-us-sales-records/
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« Reply #2691 on: December 03, 2017, 01:45:52 AM »
From the 2016 chart it seems that December was a bumper month. Is this expected to repeat?
Terry

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« Reply #2692 on: December 03, 2017, 01:56:08 AM »
From the 2016 chart it seems that December was a bumper month. Is this expected to repeat?
Terry

 Yes, the third month of each quarter is usually a very heavy one for Tesla US deliveries.  Perhaps because transportation to U.S. owners takes less time than going globally, and Tesla needs to have firm numbers for their quarterly report.
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« Reply #2693 on: December 03, 2017, 02:01:00 AM »
(Note: the article’s photo has nothing to do with the story!)

Mercedes benchmarked and dismantled a Tesla Model X in the weirdest way ahead of launching its own electric SUV
https://electrek.co/2017/12/02/mercedes-dismantled-tesla-model-x-weirdest-way-electric-suv/
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« Reply #2694 on: December 03, 2017, 02:15:47 AM »
From the 2016 chart it seems that December was a bumper month. Is this expected to repeat?
Terry
Typically.  Over the last few years there has been a rush in December due to the tax rebate.
This year maybe even more so if the rebate gets the axe.

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« Reply #2695 on: December 03, 2017, 06:17:10 AM »
From the 2016 chart it seems that December was a bumper month. Is this expected to repeat?
Terry

 Yes, the third month of each quarter is usually a very heavy one for Tesla US deliveries.  Perhaps because transportation to U.S. owners takes less time than going globally, and Tesla needs to have firm numbers for their quarterly report.

It's probably best to not take monthly sales too seriously.  Tesla doesn't report monthly, only quarterly.  Any monthly number for Tesla are guesses.

Tesla counts a sale when ownership passes to the end user.  The buyer.  Other companies count a sale when ownership passes to one of the dealers, not what we'd call the buyer.  And companies sometimes lean on dealers to take cars that they will have trouble selling.  A "sold" Ford, Toyota, whatever may be sitting on a dealer's lot a year or two later. 

I bought a brand new 2003 (11 miles on the odometer) well into 2005, not long before the 2006 model release.  Got it for just over half the sticker price.

Sales is a place where one really needs to look at the forest and not the trees.

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« Reply #2696 on: December 04, 2017, 01:41:37 AM »
If you've ever wondered about heated car seats... here's a video shot through an infrared camera examining the Tesla's winter package.
(In an EV, without all the waste heat from an internal combustion engine, heating the seats and steering wheel this way drains the battery much less than heating the entire cabin’s air.)  20°C = 68°F,  30°C = 86°F,  40°C = 104°F.  Video at the linked article.

A look at the Tesla Model S’ heated seats and steering wheel through an infrared camera [Video]
https://electrek.co/2015/12/03/a-look-at-the-tesla-model-s-heated-seats-and-steering-wheel-through-an-infrared-camera-video/
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« Reply #2697 on: December 04, 2017, 01:55:03 AM »
These features are ~standard here in Canada. Heated mirrors are also a popular option.


I assume the batteries give off some heat when charging or discharging & I know a running electrical motor will burn your hand if it's doing much work.


Is Musk utilizing this heat in any way? Is an automotive A/C unit standard on these super cars?


Terry

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« Reply #2698 on: December 04, 2017, 03:08:40 AM »
These features are ~standard here in Canada. Heated mirrors are also a popular option.


I assume the batteries give off some heat when charging or discharging & I know a running electrical motor will burn your hand if it's doing much work.


Is Musk utilizing this heat in any way? Is an automotive A/C unit standard on these super cars?


Terry

 Offhand, I know the heat from the motor is used to help condition the battery to optimal temperature. (Glycol thermal system.)   Anecdotally, I have seen mention of toes warmed by the batteries under the floor. :) 
   The air conditioning uses an electrically driven heat pump system.
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« Reply #2699 on: December 04, 2017, 04:16:31 AM »
I don't know if anyone is doing it at the moment but a single heat pump should be able to heat and cool both passengers and batteries.  When it's cold the excess heat from batteries/motors could be used for cabin heat.

EVs only started using heat pumps recently so the systems might not be very sophisticated.

Volvo has a solution for EVs in very cold conditions.  A small heater that runs off ethanoyl.  If you have to park where their is no place to plug in for warming up.