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gerontocrat

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2900 on: December 22, 2017, 04:02:18 PM »
Logic would say "If the automatic system is safer than the human-controlled system then use the automatic system". BUT watch the news after the 1st fatality in a driverless vehicle,  even if the cause was a drunken bum driving the other vehicle.
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crandles

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2901 on: December 22, 2017, 04:17:47 PM »
Logic would say "If the automatic system is safer than the human-controlled system then use the automatic system". BUT watch the news after the 1st fatality in a driverless vehicle,  even if the cause was a drunken bum driving the other vehicle.

Err, you are bit late to 'watch the news':
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jun/30/tesla-autopilot-death-self-driving-car-elon-musk

Jim Hunt

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2902 on: December 22, 2017, 04:27:12 PM »
It is annoying when people don't take a couple of minutes to copy over the text they think important and expect others to go look at a document from their perspective.

A bit like this Bob?

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,438.msg136640.html#msg136640
"The most revolutionary thing one can do always is to proclaim loudly what is happening" - Rosa Luxemburg

Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2903 on: December 22, 2017, 05:44:49 PM »
Nissan says it received 10,000 orders for the next-gen Leaf in Europe
Quote
The company already announced that early demand in Europe and Japan was strong –  they said that they received over 9,000 orders for the new Leaf in less than 2 months in those two markets.

Now, Nissan says that demand in Europe alone reached over 10,000 orders.
https://electrek.co/2017/12/22/nissan-leaf-next-gen-orders-europe/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2904 on: December 22, 2017, 07:13:12 PM »
European fast-charger network!  Now all we need is a car that can use it. ;)
But seriously, their claim that “We support all the current charging cards and access apps, enabling anyone to charge their e-car at Allego” may be the biggest news for the immediate future.  Well done!

First ‘ultra-fast’ electric car charging station comes online in Europe
https://electrek.co/2017/12/21/first-ultra-fast-electric-car-charging-station-europe/
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2905 on: December 22, 2017, 07:23:50 PM »
It is annoying when people don't take a couple of minutes to copy over the text they think important and expect others to go look at a document from their perspective.

A bit like this Bob?

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,438.msg136640.html#msg136640

No, not at all like that, Jim.  I posted an opinion.  I did not post a naked link.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2906 on: December 22, 2017, 07:28:34 PM »
European fast-charger network!  Now all we need is a car that can use it. ;)
But seriously, their claim that “We support all the current charging cards and access apps, enabling anyone to charge their e-car at Allego” may be the biggest news for the immediate future.  Well done!

First ‘ultra-fast’ electric car charging station comes online in Europe
https://electrek.co/2017/12/21/first-ultra-fast-electric-car-charging-station-europe/

It's great news because if they continue and install even a dozen well sited rapid changers the market for long range EVs will be stronger in Europe as soon a a European company starts marketing one. 

I don't know what the most driven route is in Europe.  But having that route ready with a rapid charger every 50 miles or so could facilitate EV uptake.  Tesla started by making it possible to drive N/S close to each coast and a single E/W route across the continent and built out from there.

Jim Hunt

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2907 on: December 22, 2017, 07:43:21 PM »
I posted an opinion.

Precisely my point Bob.

Whereas I posted a link to a variety of links to assorted "idiot" and expert "opinions".
"The most revolutionary thing one can do always is to proclaim loudly what is happening" - Rosa Luxemburg

Jim Hunt

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2908 on: December 22, 2017, 07:50:47 PM »
First ‘ultra-fast’ electric car charging station comes online in Europe

How do they define ‘ultra-fast’? Fred appears to have forgotten that he previously wrote about the GOtthard FASTcharge network:

https://electrek.co/guides/gotthard-fastcharge/

What's 25 kW between friends, after all?
"The most revolutionary thing one can do always is to proclaim loudly what is happening" - Rosa Luxemburg

Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2909 on: December 22, 2017, 08:33:36 PM »
I posted an opinion.

Precisely my point Bob.

Whereas I posted a link to a variety of links to assorted "idiot" and expert "opinions".

Jim, if someone asks you for a link and you post the link without other information that makes sense.

If you're in a conversation and you post a naked link without any indication of what you think important or a statement of your position you are being impolite.  IMHO.

You are asking others to guess what you are thinking about and asking them to go dig through the linked pages to see if they can discover what you think is important.

Please state your position/opinion in a few  words.  Use the link for backup or as a place for others to go for more detail.

sidd

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2910 on: December 22, 2017, 09:01:41 PM »
That article on hacking a tesla is rather good. They identified vulnerabilities, reported to Tesla which took steps to fix. The article links to another, which is a preliminary "best practices" document, which has some useful suggestions.

sidd

oren

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2911 on: December 22, 2017, 09:14:15 PM »
Bob and Jim, somehow you got in a flame, I am humbled by your contributions in all matters, but this spate isn't wise. Remember it takes two to tango, in the Holiday spirit ask you both to refrain from any further ripostes.

ivica

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2912 on: December 22, 2017, 10:53:55 PM »
oren. I - ivica - agree with your post above. but then i've to add more - and immediately regret - how is that that hypocrisy is more easily spotted in EU then US  :o

edit: i knew i'll regret it - i said it. inner product of value compromised. for those in doubt: more (of posts - or anything) do not necessarily means better - that is not equivalence.

edit again :): how one measure humanity?

edit the last_: still i feel misspoken, following dnc motto "when they go low - we double down", let me say: i'm with you, Jim. and I mean it!

Howdy - to 3 lčetter_something -: <ignore if bugling>

edit "newer say newer":
http://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/en/bollettino/pubblico/2017/02/04/170204a.html

Quote
Aircraft pollute the atmosphere, but, with a small part of the cost of the ticket, they will plant trees to compensate for part of the damage created.
Gambling companies finance campaigns to care for the pathological gamblers that they create.
And the day that the weapons industry finances hospitals to care for the children mutilated by their bombs, the system will have reached its pinnacle.
This is hypocrisy!


Jim Hunt

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2913 on: December 22, 2017, 11:24:50 PM »
You are asking others to guess what you are thinking about and asking them to go dig through the linked pages to see if they can discover what you think is important.

No I'm not - I'm interested to hear what you have to say about the public pronouncements of the Great British Government and their scientific advisors on the topic of the security of "Connected and Autonomous Vehicles" if that is of any interest to you, which it seems it is not.

Furthermore I'm also interested to hear what you have to say to some of the points raised by Sidd and Geoff amongst others.

If you want to hazard a guess as to what I think you could try reading between the lines of the article I linked to, since I wrote it and took the accompanying photographs.
"The most revolutionary thing one can do always is to proclaim loudly what is happening" - Rosa Luxemburg

Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2914 on: December 23, 2017, 12:46:40 AM »
Jim, I'm trying to get past this little brush up that has taken up too much time.  But let's take one more moment at go back and take another look at your post that started it all...

Quote
Believe it or not I recently had a conversation about the cybersecurity implications of such things with an expert in such matters over a Lego tableau in the basement of the Great British Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy:

http://www.V2G.co.uk/2017/10/v2g-in-the-beis-basement/#LEGO

OK, it would have been nice for you to summarize your conversation but you didn't.  So I took a look at your Lego link.

Quote
Moving on to the near end of our table at BEIS, here’s a LEGO tableau representing our artist’s impression of a passenger free connected vehicle driven by a “robot” deciding which of three possible electric vehicle charging stations it should connect to:

(Picture of Lego toy here)

In this instance its battery is nearly flat, it’s in a hurry to pick up another human and the grid is in good shape so it’s therefore decided to select the ultra rapid “robotic” charging station. This may seem like child’s play, but it isn’t. On Friday Julian Anderson of Thales e-Security stopped by our stand. We had a bit of a play with the Lego and a longer discussion about the cyber security implications of connected vehicles and autonomous EV charging.

You wanted everyone to go to your link to see that and why? 

Look, Jim, from now on if you want me to look at something

1) tell me why and
2) make sure there's something worth looking at.

OK?


Rob Dekker

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2915 on: December 23, 2017, 07:47:00 AM »
Happy winter solstice everyone !
May peace be with you and your family.
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Jim Hunt

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2916 on: December 23, 2017, 11:15:16 AM »
You wanted everyone to go to your link to see that and why? 

Look, Jim, from now on if you want me to look at something

1) tell me why and
2) make sure there's something worth looking at.

OK?


In your quotation you've left out the link hiding behind the phrase "Thales e-Security" which leads here:

https://www.thalesesecurity.co.uk/about-us

and the link hiding behind the phrase "cyber security" which leads here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/policies/cyber-security

A bit of Googling might have led you to discover that Julian Anderson's Twitter feed can be found here:

https://twitter.com/ThalesJules

If you'd scrolled up a bit you might have discovered that the link hiding behind the phrase "the UK Government’s new Clean Growth Strategy" led here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/clean-growth-strategy

As I pointed out in the section of my article which you graciously reproduced above, and it bears repeating once again:

Quote
This may seem like child’s play, but it isn’t.





"The most revolutionary thing one can do always is to proclaim loudly what is happening" - Rosa Luxemburg

Buddy

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2917 on: December 23, 2017, 02:22:36 PM »
I see that the worlds largest maker of spark plugs (NGK Spark Plug) is now pursuing life as a maker of solid state batteries.  They can clearly see the writing on the wall....and it has two bold letters:  EV.

Just the last 6 months...the tsunami of EV really has gained strength.  The years of 2020 - 2025 will see an avalanche of new EV vehicles as well as some probable improvements in battery technology.  There are a LOT of dollars and pesos on the line...and nobody wants to get stuck with black and white TV technology. 📺 😳

The picture is getting clearer and clearer..... Not a good time to be a Kochhead...
« Last Edit: December 23, 2017, 06:15:12 PM by Buddy »
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2918 on: December 23, 2017, 06:08:10 PM »
You wanted everyone to go to your link to see that and why? 

Look, Jim, from now on if you want me to look at something

1) tell me why and
2) make sure there's something worth looking at.

OK?


In your quotation you've left out the link hiding behind the phrase "Thales e-Security" which leads here:

https://www.thalesesecurity.co.uk/about-us

and the link hiding behind the phrase "cyber security" which leads here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/policies/cyber-security

A bit of Googling might have led you to discover that Julian Anderson's Twitter feed can be found here:

https://twitter.com/ThalesJules

If you'd scrolled up a bit you might have discovered that the link hiding behind the phrase "the UK Government’s new Clean Growth Strategy" led here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/clean-growth-strategy

As I pointed out in the section of my article which you graciously reproduced above, and it bears repeating once again:

Quote
This may seem like child’s play, but it isn’t.

Thank you, Jim.  Now I know that I could have discovered your point by:

1) Opening the link you provided which told me about your Lego play with someone I've never heard of who works for some company I've never heard of.  Oh, and that you talked about self-driving cars while you played.

2) Opening up the web page of a company I've never heard of and reading their self-description.

3) Thought to Google Julian Anderson's Twitter feed to see if there was some hidden treasure to be discovered there.

4) Detecting a hidden link within that recounting of your Lego experience that led me to some UK government cyber security search page* where I could search where your point might be hiding.



Not only me, but everyone who reads this site would have to go through all of those obscure steps when you could have simply copied out the paragraph or two from the paper you think interesting/informative or given us a couple sentences in your own words.

---
* That's where you current link takes one.  A link you gave in a latter comment let to a very generic cyber security paper where the essence (IIRC) of the small section on self-driving cars boils down to "Bad people might hack self-driving cars.  We need to be careful."


Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2919 on: December 23, 2017, 07:10:00 PM »
Pondering the safety of this new “connected” system from Chevy:

Hands-on with Chevy's brand new infotainment apps
If you like listening to news, entertainment or sports in the car, these new apps are for you.
https://www.cnet.com/google-amp/news/hands-on-with-chevys-brand-new-infotainment-apps/



Here’s a review of safety-first Volvo’s Autonomous Driver Assist feature, in winter:

The limits of semi-autonomous driving tech: We go Volvo Pilot Assist II winter testing
https://www.slashgear.com/the-limits-of-semi-autonomous-driving-tech-we-go-volvo-pilot-assist-ii-winter-testing-07481175/
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Jim Hunt

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2920 on: December 24, 2017, 02:45:04 PM »
It seems you still haven't discovered one of my numerous points.

Your utopian robotic "vision" contained no links to any supporting documentation. At the risk of repeating myself:

This may seem like child’s play, but it isn’t.

Merry Xmas to one and all!
« Last Edit: December 24, 2017, 04:18:42 PM by Jim Hunt »
"The most revolutionary thing one can do always is to proclaim loudly what is happening" - Rosa Luxemburg

Jim Hunt

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2921 on: December 24, 2017, 04:16:37 PM »
P.S. For those who may never have previously heard of the Thales Group, I idly visited their home page to discover this:



Quote
Press conference following the friendly takeover bid by the Thales Group of Gemalto. The two companies will form a world leader in digital security. The largest high-tech industrial group in Europe with close to 19 billion euros in revenues and employing 80,000 people worldwide.

The global cybersecurity market is worth 90 billion dollars per year.
"The most revolutionary thing one can do always is to proclaim loudly what is happening" - Rosa Luxemburg

Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2922 on: December 24, 2017, 06:47:06 PM »
It seems you still haven't discovered one of my numerous points.

Your utopian robotic "vision" contained no links to any supporting documentation. At the risk of repeating myself:

This may seem like child’s play, but it isn’t.

Merry Xmas to one and all!

In the post you linked I described how with robo-transportation we wouldn't need to come home in the same type vehicle we used to go to the store.

Quote
Pick you up at work in a single passenger robotaxi and drop you off at IKEA.  Pick you and your new piece of furniture up at IKEA in a van and drive you home.

You need a link for something that obvious?  Or are you being childish?

We already do that.  Some go to the grocery store on a bus then call a cab to take them and their bags of groceries home.


sidd

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2923 on: December 24, 2017, 08:39:00 PM »
Gemalto was one of the companies hacked by the NSA a while ago.

sidd

Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2924 on: December 25, 2017, 01:09:38 AM »
Cause?  Or effect?  Shopping malls were once a primary destination for drivers, especially kids, in the U.S.  But on-line shopping and cell-phone texting have made meet-ups at the mall obsolete.  Bricks-and-mortar stores are shuttering in droves.

Once thriving and full of life, America's malls are now stunning, desolate wastelands
http://www.chron.com/news/nation-world/nation/article/America-s-abandoned-malls-are-fantastic-and-unreal-12266982.php
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2925 on: December 25, 2017, 01:26:30 AM »
Love the tide of orders for big electric trucks and buses!

LADOT Selects Proterra To Provide 25 Electric Buses For One Of California’s Largest Bus Fleets
Quote
The Los Angeles Department of Transportation (LADOT) will receive 25 35-foot Proterra Catalyst electric buses in 2019, in response to a significant commitment by the City of Los Angeles to deploy an all-electric bus fleet by 2030. ...
https://electriccarsreport.com/2017/12/ladot-selects-proterra-provide-25-electric-buses-one-californias-largest-bus-fleets/
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2926 on: December 25, 2017, 03:09:59 AM »
Love the tide of orders for big electric trucks and buses!

LADOT Selects Proterra To Provide 25 Electric Buses For One Of California’s Largest Bus Fleets
Quote
The Los Angeles Department of Transportation (LADOT) will receive 25 35-foot Proterra Catalyst electric buses in 2019, in response to a significant commitment by the City of Los Angeles to deploy an all-electric bus fleet by 2030. ...
https://electriccarsreport.com/2017/12/ladot-selects-proterra-provide-25-electric-buses-one-californias-largest-bus-fleets/

In July LA ordered 60 BYD electric buses and then ordered 100 New Flyer buses in October.  The City has about 2,500 buses so they're closing on 10% battery powered.

Pmt111500

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2927 on: December 25, 2017, 12:36:30 PM »
I know there should be less carbon intensive traffic, but also constant stopping and accelerating is an issue. I know also there aren't many places where 3 highways meet. Drew (mainly for fun) a schematic for this kind of intersection. Lotsa up and downs but you get anywhere from anywhere. Lol. Some light entertainment for christmas or something like that. Six-way interchange. Made also a drawing of an 8-way interchange but that is too silly for this place :-D
« Last Edit: December 25, 2017, 03:06:56 PM by Pmt111500 »

Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2928 on: December 25, 2017, 03:44:35 PM »
I know there should be less carbon intensive traffic, but also constant stopping and accelerating is an issue. I know also there aren't many places where 3 highways meet. Drew (mainly for fun) a schematic for this kind of intersection. Lotsa up and downs but you get anywhere from anywhere. Lol. Some light entertainment for christmas or something like that. Six-way interchange. Made also a drawing of an 8-way interchange but that is too silly for this place :-D

Versus making one humongous roundabout and simply wishing everyone good luck! ;)
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numerobis

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2929 on: December 25, 2017, 11:51:35 PM »
The guardian analyzed EV versus ICE nicely. They estimate 125g CO2 per 100 km for a petrol car, versus 91g for an electric car off oil-generated grid power.

A hybrid would do better, at 83g, so my neighbor is the greenest.

Of course, cleaning up the grid quickly improves the EV’s impact.

All this ignores construction cost. Given construction and disposal cost you could use these figures to do a life cycle analysis.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/ng-interactive/2017/dec/25/how-green-are-electric-cars

Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2930 on: December 26, 2017, 12:10:51 AM »
Where does one find an oil-powered grid?

How many places can one find a 100% fossil fuel grid?  (Other than remote places which haven't yet started cleaning up.)

Here are the important comparisons -

ICEV on petroleum = 125 g of CO 2 equivalent per km
PHEV from US mix grid = 75 g
EV from EU mix grid = 57 g

And here's where we need to go -

Pure electric car with electricity from Wind (solar, hydro) = 0 g




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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2931 on: December 26, 2017, 02:19:22 AM »
Those numbers ignore the CO2 released to generate electricity used to refine gas for the cars and the CO2 generated transporting the gas to fueling stations.

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2932 on: December 26, 2017, 03:14:07 AM »
Those numbers ignore the CO2 released to generate electricity used to refine gas for the cars and the CO2 generated transporting the gas to fueling stations.


Very good points.


Am I mistaken in believing that many some American locals are still generating electricity using coal?
I'd think that this might weigh heavily on the scales.
Terry

Pmt111500

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2933 on: December 26, 2017, 03:25:56 AM »
Versus making one humongous roundabout and simply wishing everyone good luck! ;)

 :-) if I counted correctly it's got only 39 ramps and 9 bridges or tunnels, and it's only two-level. We no need those fricking roundabouts or turbine interchanges, we want faster corners.

Harder case to design in two-levels is the 5-way interchange as the odd number of roads cannot at least easily pass over each other symmetrically. The turbine interchange maybe the best option here.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2017, 06:54:23 AM by Pmt111500 »

Zythryn

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2934 on: December 26, 2017, 05:42:01 AM »
...
Am I mistaken in believing that many some American locals are still generating electricity using coal?
I'd think that this might weigh heavily on the scales.
Terry
That is a very broad statement, so no, you aren’t wrong that some or many (especially if you define “many” as “more than three” American locals use [some] coal powered electricity.

As of a couple of years ago, 70% of American locals emit fewer GHGs in an average EV than in the most fuel efficient hybrids.
Even in the most coal intensive areas, the average EV is still cleaner than the average petrol vehicle.

Lots of data and specifics here: https://blog.ucsusa.org/dave-reichmuth/new-numbers-are-in-and-evs-are-cleaner-than-ever

numerobis

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2935 on: December 26, 2017, 08:26:01 AM »
Those numbers ignore the CO2 released to generate electricity used to refine gas for the cars and the CO2 generated transporting the gas to fueling stations.

They explicitly include that.

Bob: where does one find an oil grid? At my place!

Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2936 on: December 26, 2017, 06:50:35 PM »
Those numbers ignore the CO2 released to generate electricity used to refine gas for the cars and the CO2 generated transporting the gas to fueling stations.


Very good points.


Am I mistaken in believing that many some American locals are still generating electricity using coal?
I'd think that this might weigh heavily on the scales.
Terry

Over 50% US electricity is from fossil fuels.  At the end of 2016 30.4% of US electricity was from coal, 33.8% from natural gas. 

Those numbers should about 2% lower at for 2017.  In 2016 wind and solar took a 1.7% market share from fossil fuels and 2017 W/S additions look to be higher than 2016.  We need to be at 3% per year in order to get rid of FF in 20 years.  Plus some more for electrifying transportation.

GeoffBeacon

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2937 on: December 26, 2017, 07:49:29 PM »
Pedestrian Apartheid
I have a hope that a policy of Pedestrian Apartheid, where non-motorists have neighbourhoods separated from motorists, could be so successful that many people would want it.

We could have local shops, pubs, schools, buses, and be free of pollution and danger from cars. Can you smell the fresh air already?

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Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2938 on: December 26, 2017, 08:02:02 PM »
Pedestrian Apartheid
I have a hope that a policy of Pedestrian Apartheid, where non-motorists have neighbourhoods separated from motorists, could be so successful that many people would want it.

We could have local shops, pubs, schools, buses, and be free of pollution and danger from cars. Can you smell the fresh air already?


EVs get rid of the pollution.  Current crash avoidance largely remove the danger of being struck by an automobile.

I agree that we should make our towns and cities more walkable, but the cost of rebuilding our cities to create large vehicle free areas would not be affordable.  We could incorporate car free areas in future expansions but to create them in existing cities would be difficult. 

Barcelona might have a solution for creating more pedestrian areas within a developed city.  We need to watch and see how that works out.

Quote
Barcelona’s new plan consists of creating big superilles through a series of gradual interventions that will repurpose existing infrastructure, starting with traffic management through to changing road signs and bus routes. Superblocks will be smaller than neighbourhoods, but bigger than actual blocks. This will first be applied to Eixample neighbourhood and others like Sant Martí, which largely follows the same grid pattern.

In Eixample, a superblock will consist of nine existing blocks of the grid. Car, scooter, lorry and bus traffic will then be restricted to just the roads in the superblock perimeters, and they will only be allowed in the streets in between if they are residents or providing local businesses, and at a greatly reduced speed of 10km/h (typically the speed limit across the city is 50km/h, and 30km/h in specific areas).

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/may/17/superblocks-rescue-barcelona-spain-plan-give-streets-back-residents

This could create a much more walkable/bikeable 'neighborhood'. 

GeoffBeacon

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2939 on: December 26, 2017, 09:12:36 PM »

EVs get rid of the pollution.

EVs will get rid of local pollution.

EVs will get rid of global pollution, when their manufacture is pollution free and when electricity is pollution free.

At this moment Earth.org.uk are saying 
Quote
effective grid carbon intensity for a domestic user is currently 257 gCO2/kWh including transmission and distribution losses of 7%.

Bob. Would you insist all non-motorists should have to buy an EV?

If not, why shouldn't we live apart and have local shops, pubs, schools, buses and a better life?
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2940 on: December 26, 2017, 09:58:37 PM »
Quote
EVs will get rid of local pollution.

And our grids will  continue to get cleaner. 

Quote
Would you insist all non-motorists should have to buy an EV?

It is very likely that we will see almost no ICEVs on our roads by 2050, if not sooner.  EVs will almost certainly get cheaper to purchase, they are already cheaper to operate.  As the market switches to EVs the manufacturing of ICEVs will decrease, perhaps drop to zero.  It will become difficult to locate fueling stations and repair shops.

Quote
why shouldn't we live apart and have local shops, pubs, schools, buses and a better life?

I'm for that but I don't see it happening on a grand scale over the next couple of decades.  The cost would be high and there's no real way to make it pay for itself.




Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2941 on: December 26, 2017, 10:05:30 PM »
I wonder... if the money they won’t spent on ICE cars... will be spent developing EVs?

Ford’s car sales are down; they are pivoting to their more successful trucks and SUVs.  A similar move a decade ago cost them dearly.
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Since the recession, Detroit automakers Ford Motor Company (NYSE:F) and General Motors (NYSE:GM) have done all they can to reassure investors that they are nothing like the management teams that led their respective companies down the road of poor quality and eroding profits. Alan Mulally was wildly successful in driving Ford's rebound, and Mary Barra has been equally successful recently at General Motors. But is Ford's recent decision to cancel plans to build the next-generation Fusion in Hermosillo, Mexico, a sign it could be repeating its earlier mistake of neglecting passenger cars?

What's going on?

In the years leading up to the most recent recession, Detroit automakers were widely known for two things: massive gas-guzzling, yet profitable, SUVs and low-quality, poorly designed, and rarely profitable passenger cars. In the years following the recession, that narrative quickly flipped, and Detroit became competitive with its passenger cars. But as one key selling point, fuel economy, improved by leaps and bounds, it opened the door for a massive change in portfolio strategy.

"The reasons for the balance in history had more to do with fuel than customer preference," Jim Hackett, CEO of Ford, told Automotive News. "And so, if you can get rid of the difference there because of fuel, you start to relieve the pressure of what kind of portfolio you have to have."

Citing sources familiar with the development, Automotive News reports that Ford has told its suppliers the Fusion won't be made in Mexico anymore, which leaves the car's future after 2020 quite blurry. If Ford doesn't produce the midsize sedan in Mexico, it seems unlikely and difficult to imagine it would import a next-generation Fusion from China to the U.S. or Europe, as the automaker will with the smaller Focus. ...
https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/12/26/is-ford-motor-company-making-same-mistake-again.aspx
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TerryM

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2942 on: December 26, 2017, 10:18:38 PM »
In the late 60's - early 70's there was a golf course, lake community north of Corona California with a convenience store and pub. Housing was in double & triple wide trailers and only golf carts were allowed on the paths. It was a retirement community so schools were not needed or available. I'd guess less than one thousand inhabitants with a large parking space close by the entrance.
I recall it being bisected by I-60 in the mid 70's and it blinked out of existence.


The Santa Catalina Island community off the coast of Southern California was also restricted to golf carts, although motorbikes were allowed.


Terry






Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2943 on: December 26, 2017, 10:24:10 PM »
There are other car free communities in the US (some are islands).  But creating a car free neighborhood from scratch and modifying an existing city are vastly different things.

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2944 on: December 26, 2017, 10:26:11 PM »
Bob Wallace
Quote
And our grids will  continue to get cleaner.

Not fast enough. The transition to low carbon, “modern” lifestyles may break existing carbon budgets.


Bob Wallace
Quote
I'm for that but I don't see it happening on a grand scale over the next couple of decades.  The cost would be high and there's no real way to make it pay for itself

New settlements without cars would enable much cheaper lifestyles than those of the livestyles of the affluent owners of EVs - or cars in general. See £20K housing – a lifestyle revolution
Quote
Home buyers are forced into unaffordable, car based lifestyles.
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GeoffBeacon

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2945 on: December 26, 2017, 10:44:55 PM »
Terry, Bob

I found a NYT article from 1981 about Fire Island:

Quote
While Fire Island may be an island apart in that it has avoided the car and the shoe, it has done so out of choice, not poverty. This 32-mile strip of sand facing the Atlantic Ocean off the south shore of Long Island has some of the most valuable real estate on the ocean. Modest beachfront houses easily rent for Metropolitan Baedeker

Since 1964, Fire Island has been part National Seashore and part private land. The Seashore land is open to everyone. So is the beach for the length of the island. Because of the absence of cars, more than a more than a dozen communities exist without running into one another. People tend to stay within walking distance.

For me that's encouraging because even weathy people want to avoid cars, like they do in Venice.

What's Fire Island like today - after Hurricane Sandy?
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Bob Wallace

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« Reply #2946 on: December 26, 2017, 11:10:06 PM »
Geoff, if you  were to read these 'hair on fire' articles about grids being too expensive to clean, EVs/RE not being clean enough critically you would see that they have basic flaws. 

Greening our grids too expensive.  These articles typically omit the fact that between now and 2050 we will have to replace almost all our our existing fossil fuel and nuclear plants with something because stuff gets old and isn't useful any longer. 

We've been replacing large thermal plants for decades.  The replacement cost is baked into our cost of electricity.  We always have a mix of new and expensive along with older and paid off.  What will happen going forward is that we won't be building hardly any large thermal plants buy much cheaper renewable generation. 

The cost of electricity will almost certainly drop as we eliminate FF.

The EVs/panels/turbines are too dirty stuff constantly ignores our greening grids.  The carbon emitted in 2017 per EV, manufactured will drop for EVs manufactured in 2018, and 2019, and ....   Same for the articles that talk about the CO2 associated with solar panel and wind turbine manufacturing and installation.  Around the world we are installing more RE and starting to drop FF.


Bob Wallace

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« Reply #2947 on: December 26, 2017, 11:26:58 PM »
Geoff, I take it you didn't take time to read about Barcelona?  Is it that you just want to predict doom rather than look for solutions?
---

Let me give you one idea, sort of a Barcelona spinoff, that we might be able to implement once we get self-driving cars.

Take four adjacent streets running the same direction (N/S or E/W) across town.  Assume all have at least four lanes, including the parking lanes. 

Turn two into four lane one-way, no parking or stopping thoroughfares.  Center two lanes for cars that will travel several blocks before turning off.  Outer lanes for cars turning on and turning off as well as going only a short distance.

Stop for passenger entry/exit and deliveries on cross streets.  Keep the cross streets free of parking so that a robotaxi could turn onto a cross street, discharge/pickup passengers, make a u-turn and resume traveling in the same direction.

Turn the other two streets into pedestrian and bike friendly roads.  One center lane for slow speed (10 MPH max) cars going only a limited distance, normally only one block.  Provide space for vehicles picking up and dropping off passengers and for deliveries. 

EVs will take care of the noise and pollution.  Self-driving cars can drop off their passengers and take themselves to a parking area (or in the case of robotaxis, off to haul someone else).  Self-driving cars (programmed correctly) will not hit people.





numerobis

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2948 on: December 27, 2017, 02:04:24 AM »
Bob: pedestrian streets are not some crazy weird impossible thing. They're actually a very common thing, particularly outside the US. Sometimes they open to cars for a few hours a day, for deliveries; often they don't.

Bob Wallace

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« Reply #2949 on: December 27, 2017, 02:35:54 AM »
I've been on many pedestrian roads.

Our cities are already too crowded.  We can't take more than the odd block here and there out of use without really stuffing things up.