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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3000 on: January 01, 2018, 01:08:23 AM »
January 1, 2018 China is banning production of 553 models of cars because they exceed fuel consumption limits. Apparently these cars met the Euro 4 standard.

...

Wow. :o Big names.
Quote
Models on the list include the Audi A3 saloon, which meets old China 5 emissions regulations that are set to be superseded in 2017 and the Chevrolet Cruze saloon, whose engine is built to Euro 4 emissions standards, which were in place from 2005-2009.
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Paddy

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3001 on: January 01, 2018, 09:00:32 AM »
RE the 5% drop in vehicle registrations in Britain:  One of the things I will be looking for...is a "transition period" where potential car buyers hold off on purchasing a new car....because they want to buy an EV because they see where the market is going...but they also see the cost of EV's dropping...so they may try to stretch the length of time they hold onto their current car for two or three more years before they pull the trigger.

That's not far off my position. I'm currently holding onto a little old car and waiting on anticipated further improvements in electric with a view to maybe going that way next. Also waiting on closing my purchase of a house.

In other news, in the USA, transport has recently overtaken power
generation as the leading source of CO2 emissions, while sales of highly fuel efficient cars or electric cars aren't going too well:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/jan/01/vehicles-climate-change-emissions-trump-administration

silkman

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3002 on: January 01, 2018, 10:59:50 AM »
Following up on my post before the holidays about my purchase of a BMW i3 and the subsequent discussion it triggered, I thought I'd report on the early experience of going electric in the UK.

Firstly, I really like the car and the way it drives. It's a small car that feels big if that makes any sense and will be perfect for the vast majority of my local usage, charged as often as I can with locally generated electricity from my solar array. But how did it perform on my 300 mile round trip to Bristol along busy roads in some difficult weather?

The answer is pretty well but I can't say the same for the robustness of the UK charging infrastructure. In preparation I'd registered for all three of the major charging networks and the first long trip of 155 miles was achieved seamlessly with a single stop at a Motorway service station (Gloucester on the M5), use of the Ecotricity fast charging facility with time for a bowl of soup and a sandwich.

With my destination in Bristol reached and with grandkids in full Christmas mode all was well until I set out to recharge for the return journey. Bristol is a very eco-friendly city with numerous charging stations but I failed to find an operational one in three locations. No matter, I thought. I've enough in the battery to get back to Gloucester services and I'll sort it there, which I did to an extent though I had to use a slower 7 amp Type 2 charger that meant I would need an additional stop.

So on to Birmingham and Hopwood Services and an available 32 amp charger - only to find that that too was out of action. After a frustrating 45 minutes and a conversation with a Nissan Leaf owner now desperate to use the sole charging point within his range I set out to cover the last 70 miles knowing that I would need to resort to the i3 range extender to get home. It worked fine, justifying my decision to pay for the insurance of the extender and I got home to Cheshire having used about four litres of petrol.

The conclusion: the car is fit for purpose but the UK charging network isn't. As the numbers of EVs grows the challenges will get greater.

It's interesting to note that at Hopwood there were Tesla charging points a plenty but no Tesla in sight.

Happy New Year!


Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3003 on: January 01, 2018, 05:10:31 PM »
silkman,

Congratulations on your i3, and meeting the challenges of a long trip.  Seems like between your multiple charger memberships and the range extender, you were well-prepared.

I think the difficulties you had with charging infrastructure are part of what will make EVs with over 200-mile range that much easier and acceptable to more of the public, as more come on the market.  And the more EVs on the road, the more demands will be voiced that chargers must be numerous and kept repaired.

The Hopwood Supercharger was recently increased to 16 stalls, so Tesla must think it will be popular soon.  Lots of Model 3 reservations, perhaps?  ;)
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silkman

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3004 on: January 02, 2018, 12:20:56 AM »
Quote
The Hopwood Supercharger was recently increased to 16 stalls, so Tesla must think it will be popular soon.  Lots of Model 3 reservations, perhaps?

Tesla's investment in its UK charging network is, to say the least, amazing when you consider that the right hand drive version of the Tesla 3 won't go into production until 2019.

Multiple charging points are being installed across the UK motorway network though Hopwood with 16 seems to be at the top end. Musk is clearly intending to ensure that his customers don't suffer the problems I faced last week but it comes with significant up front cost.

It's a good job he has deep pockets!

oren

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3005 on: January 02, 2018, 08:37:30 AM »
Silkman thank you for your road trip report. My wife recently saw an ad for the i3 and was curious, so I showed her your real-life account. I think the range extender is a wonderful feature for any EV during the transition period.

GeoffBeacon

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3006 on: January 02, 2018, 05:11:24 PM »
Perhaps my comments on this thread are more appropriate to "Cars, cars and less cars" but I'm not doing this just to annoy. 

I've just struggled to write, Mixed communities, car-free cities and pedestrian apartheid, which lists a couple of ways that cars can be squeezed out of city lifestyles.

1) Building non-motorist  housing next to transport hubs (The Draft London Plan from Mayor Sadiq Kahn)
2) Building car-free housing round shopping malls (A suggestion from the "father"of malls, Victor Gruen).

and also ...

Former European Commissioner, Carlo Ripa di Meana, once commissioned research, which showed that living in a car-free city would be a fraction of the cost of living in a car-based one.

I still can't see how mass car use, automated or otherwise, can fit in a sensible carbon budget but recognise that a greener car is better than a dirty one.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3007 on: January 02, 2018, 05:22:07 PM »
Quote
The Hopwood Supercharger was recently increased to 16 stalls, so Tesla must think it will be popular soon.  Lots of Model 3 reservations, perhaps?

Tesla's investment in its UK charging network is, to say the least, amazing when you consider that the right hand drive version of the Tesla 3 won't go into production until 2019.

Multiple charging points are being installed across the UK motorway network though Hopwood with 16 seems to be at the top end. Musk is clearly intending to ensure that his customers don't suffer the problems I faced last week but it comes with significant up front cost.

It's a good job he has deep pockets!

Also, it’s easier to ‘do the right thing’ if profit is not a motive.  Per Tesla’s Supercharger Update (ending ‘free supercharging for life’ on their new cars):

“...while prices may fluctuate over time and vary regionally based on the cost of electricity, our Supercharger Network will never be a profit center.”

https://www.tesla.com/blog/update-our-supercharging-program
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3008 on: January 02, 2018, 05:35:18 PM »
Perhaps my comments on this thread are more appropriate to "Cars, cars and less cars" but I'm not doing this just to annoy. 

I've just struggled to write, Mixed communities, car-free cities and pedestrian apartheid, which lists a couple of ways that cars can be squeezed out of city lifestyles.

1) Building non-motorist  housing next to transport hubs (The Draft London Plan from Mayor Sadiq Kahn)
2) Building car-free housing round shopping malls (A suggestion from the "father"of malls, Victor Gruen).

and also ...

Former European Commissioner, Carlo Ripa di Meana, once commissioned research, which showed that living in a car-free city would be a fraction of the cost of living in a car-based one.

I still can't see how mass car use, automated or otherwise, can fit in a sensible carbon budget but recognise that a greener car is better than a dirty one.

Well, greener cars lower a carbon footprint while not requiring the building of all that new housing.  ;)

Seriously, it is likely that future housing will incorporate many of your ideas.  But until that becomes the norm, the rest of the population needs greener transport, today.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3009 on: January 02, 2018, 07:14:01 PM »
California report finds EVs are not crashing the grid just yet
Quote
It’s a legitimate worry: Will charging hundreds of thousands – and eventually, millions – of EVs overwhelm existing electric grids? A new analysis of real-world data from California brings good news: So far, EVs are not anywhere near crashing the grid.

Since 2012, California regulators have required the state’s three investor-owned utilities (Pacific Gas and Electric, Southern California Edison, and San Diego Gas and Electric) to file reports on how EVs affect the local grid. California has over 350,000 EVs, many of them clustered in certain neighborhoods, so the state’s experience offers a glimpse into the future when it comes to managing EVs and the grid.

In “Electric Vehicles Are Not Crashing the Grid,” prepared by Synapse Energy Economics, Avi Allison and Melissa Whited write that the existing grid can reliably accommodate hundreds of thousands of EVs, and that time-of-use (TOU) electric rates are simple and useful tools for shifting EV charging loads to optimal times. ...
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/california-report-finds-evs-are-not-crashing-the-grid-just-yet/
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3010 on: January 03, 2018, 07:55:08 AM »
Quote
I still can't see how mass car use, automated or otherwise, can fit in a sensible carbon budget but recognise that a greener car is better than a dirty one.

If the car is built without carbon inputs (using only renewable energy) and runs on renewable energy where is the carbon budget impacted?


Sleepy

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3011 on: January 03, 2018, 08:35:41 AM »
The key word as I see it, is "sensible carbon budget" and what that really means to any of us.
I posted that link to the Gordon Goodman Memorial Lecture with Kevin Anderson over here,
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1021.msg137267.html#msg137267
since I thought it was better suited there?

If you look at Sweden and the fact that our emissions dropped by 1.6% between 2015 and 2016,
http://www.naturvardsverket.se/Nyheter-och-pressmeddelanden/De-nya-svenska-klimatmalen-i-sikte-/
one must also consider that those numbers don't include our flying, shipping and consumption in other countries. We fly out eleven million tonnes every year and it's rising. Today we are greener than ever since we managed to sell our lignite to EPH. We still do not get close to Kevin Andersons numbers in the image I posted. Far from it.
When will Bob's "if" happen? We are far over safe emisson levels and rising. If Sweden (with exeptional prerequisites) can't do it in time to meet the Paris goals, who will?
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3012 on: January 03, 2018, 09:07:28 AM »
Quote
When will Bob's "if" happen?

I think the planet will essentially cease fossil fuel use by 2050.  That seems to be  safe bet.

I also think that as time progresses people will become more and more concerned about climate change and that could speed things up by a decade or more.


Sleepy

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3013 on: January 03, 2018, 10:29:33 AM »
Let's hope so. 2050 is also Swedens official goal but there are a lot of vauge definitions in there and it's a lot slower than what Kevin mentioned. I watched the lecture live, but I remebered the attached image presented and took a screenshot now. Kevin said along with this slide that we do need romantic illusions to get going. Scenarios including NETs is unfortunately what our leaders seem to prefer.
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GeoffBeacon

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3014 on: January 03, 2018, 01:53:38 PM »
Quote
I still can't see how mass car use, automated or otherwise, can fit in a sensible carbon budget but recognise that a greener car is better than a dirty one.

If the car is built without carbon inputs (using only renewable energy) and runs on renewable energy where is the carbon budget impacted?

Will that be before we have run out of the remaining carbon budget? (OK. I know RCB is a difficult to estimate - I hope we can discuss sometime.)

Well, greener cars lower a carbon footprint while not requiring the building of all that new housing.  ;)

It's possible to build houses that store carbon. e.g. in wood. Sadly, I don't think the London Plan includes that.

Something else I've re-discovered is what Carlo Ripa di Meana said when he was the European Environment Commissioner

Quote
the car-free city costs between two and five times less

I don't much like using "costing" arguments because they can hide all sorts of junk but this does raise the issue of capital and research effort. In his talk Kevin Anderson advocated getting lots of engineers to work on climate change e.g. installing lots of renewable energy. That is immense capital expenditure so let's not waste it on expensive car-based living.

 I wanted to say something here about "planet-destroying growth" v.s. "immense green capital expenditure" but the brain's shutting down on that today.

Let's hope so. 2050 is also Sweden's official goal but there are a lot of vague definitions in there and it's a lot slower than what Kevin mentioned.

I think the UK can beat Sweden on vague (or misleading) definitions. (e.g. consumption or production emissions.)
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3015 on: January 03, 2018, 05:53:46 PM »
In 2009 Jacobson and Delucchi published a 'blueprint' showing how the globe could leave fossil fuels behind in 20 years.  They did not say that getting rid of fossil fuels in 20 years would be easy.  But they did calculate that it could be done.

Now, nine years later we've made a little progress, but more importantly, we've made the task much easier.  We've got better solar panels, better wind turbines, better light bulbs, and we're on the cusp of affordable EVs.  And I think the job will get easier and easier as our technology continues to improve.

Jacobson and Delucchi said that we could quit fossil fuels rapidly.  We had the technology then and there was no shortage of materials.  What was needed is a 'political will'.  We still don't have enough political will but it is growing. 

Just a few minutes ago I heard that Oregon is the latest state to set a goal of being fossil fuel free by 2050.  California set a similar goal earlier and is making enough progress that the goal will be reached years earlier. 

I think we'll see more and more countries, states, and cities dedicate themselves to quitting fossil fuels as time goes along.  And as they progress toward that goal they will accelerate their efforts because the job will get easier and they will discover very large cost savings.

Will the planet make it to 'carbon free' by 2050?  I think there's a good chance but there's no way to guarantee it.  If we, as individuals, are concerned then we need to find ways to push the transformation to renewable energy.

Sleepy

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3016 on: January 03, 2018, 06:04:14 PM »
Quote
I think the UK can beat Sweden on vague (or misleading) definitions.
Maybe so, but we might not that different in reality, Geoff.

Attaching a simple image made by Nicklas Börjesson, it's the Swedish "climate budget" where he has placed the different challenges from the easiest (top left) down to the hardest (bottom right). The important part is not how accurately he has placed them individually, but more to show the scale of the different challenges for Sweden. Those differ from nation to nation of course.

EV's
Industry
Population growth
Agriculture
Construction
Road transports
Shorter flights
Luxury consumption
Meat
Longer flights

Sweden have 40% Nuclear, 40% Hydro and 10% Wind. The tough part starts around Agriculture. Sweden can only produce food for half of it's population today, the other half is imported...
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Tor Bejnar

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3017 on: January 03, 2018, 06:38:18 PM »
Courtesy of Google Translate:

snabbare, enklare, bättre = faster, easier, better
Långsammare, svårare, sämre = slower, harder, worse
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things because "we cannot negotiate with the melting point of ice"

TerryM

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3018 on: January 03, 2018, 07:01:45 PM »
Thanks Tor!


Sleepy


I had no idea that Sweden was so dependent on imported food.
While Canada imports lots of tropical niceties, I believe we, even as far north as we are, could feed ourselves adequately, if not tastily.


Is Sweden expected to be on a branch line of the New Silk Road?
Russia is bringing in bumper crops of non-GMO wheat, and with your sources of clean energy electricity, rail transportation might be almost a wash. The problem then becomes one of producing low carbon goods to trade for the food, and insisting that low carbon techniques are followed by those producing the food that you consume.
Daunting perhaps, but not impossible.


The photo's of your land in early December appeared very lush. Surely land like this could grow something edible?
Terry

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3019 on: January 03, 2018, 07:16:30 PM »
Thanks Tor.
And worse, I also forgot to mention the coloured lines, the blue is what we "should" be doing (in theory that is), the red is a more viable option considering politics and economy.

Terry, yes and that makes us very vulnerable in more than one perspective. The fun thing is that Finland is a lot better in that respect. Our growing season in the southern parts is almost a month longer now thanks to climate change.

These guys offer services to the silk road but I don't know much about it:
http://www.kerrylogisticssweden.se/sv/nyheter/item/397-new-silk-road
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3020 on: January 03, 2018, 07:28:45 PM »
From November:
PSA wants money back from its purchase of GM’s Opel division, because GM’s solution for addressing tightening emissions standards in Europe involved heavy sales of diesels and selling the all-electric Ampera-E (a rebadged Chevy Bolt) at a €10,000 loss. 

“Opel is five to seven years behind with their engine lineup.  We haven’t seen any big GM investments in Opel to develop plug-in hybrids or zero-emissions cars.”

Exclusive: PSA seeks Opel refund from GM over CO2 emissions
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-peugeot-gm-opel-exclusive/exclusive-psa-seeks-opel-refund-from-gm-over-co2-emissions-idUSKBN1DT1NA
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3021 on: January 04, 2018, 01:31:59 AM »
Tesla just released Quarter 4 2017 numbers. It was their best quarter to date, but some resources from Model S and X lines were moved over to help with Model 3 production.  Keep in mind the difference between Q4 deliveries versus Q4 production.

Tesla confirmed Q4 production totaled 24,565 vehicles, of which 2,425 were Model 3.

Looking forward:
The company guides a ramp to a weekly rate of “about 2,500 Model 3 vehicles” per week by the end of [Q1 2018], but they pushed their 5,000 per week goal to “the end of Q2.”

Tesla says Model 3 production rate at ‘over 1,000 per week’ and breaks quarterly delivery record with 29,870 vehicles
Quote
PALO ALTO, Calif., Jan. 03, 2018 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) — In Q4, Tesla delivered 29,870 vehicles, of which 15,200 were Model S, 13,120 were Model X, and 1,550 were Model 3. This was once again our all-time best quarter for combined Model S and X deliveries, representing a 27% increase over Q4 2016, and a 9% increase over Q3 2017, our previous best quarter.

In total, we exceeded our previously announced guidance by delivering 101,312 Model S and X vehicles in 2017. This was a 33% increase over 2016.

In addition to Q4 deliveries, about 2,520 Model S and X vehicles and 860 Model 3 vehicles were in transit to customers at the end of the quarter. These will be counted as deliveries in Q1 2018.
https://electrek.co/2018/01/03/tesla-model-3-delivery-record/

Images: 1) Tesla historical production,
2) selected 2017 U.S. EV sales numbers, estimated by Inside EVs ( complete data and written summaries here:  https://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/ )
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 01:38:27 AM by Sigmetnow »
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3022 on: January 04, 2018, 01:37:17 AM »
Chevy Bolt EV achieves new delivery record and ends first full year of production at over 23,000 units in the US
Quote
Not unlike the Tesla Model 3, the Chevy Bolt EV had a slow production and delivery ramp-up in 2017, but it did finish the year strong by increasing deliveries every month leading to another new record in December.

Before launching its new electric car, GM said that they were aiming for about 30,000 vehicles per year.

After delivering 3,227 units last month, the Chevy Bolt EV ended its first full year of production with 23,297 units. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/01/03/chevy-bolt-ev-delivery-record/
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ghoti

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3023 on: January 04, 2018, 05:29:47 AM »
Chevy Bolt EV achieves new delivery record and ends first full year of production at over 23,000 units in the US
Can add 2122 Bolts sold in 2017 in Canada to that.

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3024 on: January 04, 2018, 10:44:01 AM »
Add zero for Sweden, we might never see that car here (Bolt/Ampera-e) after PSA purchased Opel. Norway has, but it costs between 360.000-420.000 NOK there now.
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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3025 on: January 04, 2018, 03:20:55 PM »
Unofficial report: the 2019 Nissan LEAF will have a bigger battery with all-new tech including thermal management, to give an EPA range of over 225 miles.  Should be available this fall. 
A long-overdue upgrade to this previously industry-leading EV.

Nissan Leaf 2019 will have ‘over 225 miles’ of range, 100 kW fast-charging, and more, says report
https://electrek.co/2018/01/04/nissan-leaf-2019-specs-range-charging/
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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3026 on: January 04, 2018, 05:26:05 PM »
Good news about the Leaf.  Nissan actually makes efforts to sell EVs.  Now if they have a long range EV to sell things will heat up.  This will help pull other manufacturers into the market.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3027 on: January 04, 2018, 10:08:10 PM »
Tesla opens Model 3 configurator to reservation holders on the East Coast and Midwest [and pretty much every other U.S. state, for current Tesla owners]
Quote
Update: More reports are coming in and it looks like Tesla opened up invitations to pretty much every state outside of California.

Until now, Tesla was limiting Model 3 configurations and deliveries to California and to current Tesla owners.

The reports we received from reservation holders so far seem to indicate that invitations are still limited to reservation holders with Tesla owner priority, but the automaker is definitely expanding beyond California. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/01/04/tesla-opens-model-3-configurator-to-reservation-holders-east-coast/
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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3028 on: January 05, 2018, 10:05:54 AM »
Fewer diesels(down by 17%), fewer cars(5.6%) sold in UK in 2017 than in 2016

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42571828

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3029 on: January 06, 2018, 12:22:57 AM »
America's finest news source on how to decrease bike accidents:

" ... a study published Monday by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration found that 90 percent of bike accidents could be prevented by buying a car like a normal person. “Our data confirm that the vast majority of cyclist injuries can be avoided simply by driving an automobile instead of biking around like some weirdo,” said lead researcher Dr. Laura Gafferty "

https://www.theonion.com/study-90-of-bike-accidents-preventable-by-buying-car-1820403123

sidd

Neven

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3030 on: January 06, 2018, 09:55:30 AM »
You had me there for a sentence or two, sidd.  :D
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GeoffBeacon

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3031 on: January 06, 2018, 12:41:08 PM »
America's finest news source on how to decrease bike accidents:

" ... a study published Monday by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration found that 90 percent of bike accidents could be prevented by buying a car like a normal person. “Our data confirm that the vast majority of cyclist injuries can be avoided simply by driving an automobile instead of biking around like some weirdo,” said lead researcher Dr. Laura Gafferty "

https://www.theonion.com/study-90-of-bike-accidents-preventable-by-buying-car-1820403123

sidd


That is funny - and I miss petrolhead Jeremy Clarkson and friends now they have left the BBC. It rather depresses me to write this boring comment...

Spoiler: This is pious and boring but probably accurate.

The joke reminds me that cyclists, pedestrians and anyone that breathes air are at risk when living in the same space as motorists. Added to that is the removal of services such as local shops, local schools, public transport &etc. For the economists: these are cases where motorists are destroying the consumer surplus of the non-motorist.

(I'm even more depresses now.)

However, there may be a bright light on the horizon that will cheer me up, Mayor Sadiq Kahn's Draft London Plan bans motorists from living in new housing developments near transport hubs.

What non-motorists like me need is Pedestrian Apartheid so motorists can live in their own pollution and we can glow in our much smaller carbon footprints.
Il faut cultiver notre cité-jardin
The Sustainable Plotlands Association

Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3032 on: January 06, 2018, 09:16:38 PM »
This experiment shows why many EVs are not quite ready for prime time for the majority of the (U.S.) population. ;D

A Firsthand Account About Renting Out An EV On Turo
https://insideevs.com/firsthand-account-renting-ev-turo/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3033 on: January 07, 2018, 04:20:55 AM »
This experiment shows why many EVs are not quite ready for prime time for the majority of the (U.S.) population. ;D

A Firsthand Account About Renting Out An EV On Turo
https://insideevs.com/firsthand-account-renting-ev-turo/

No, it shows that a lot of US drivers don't know enough about low range EVs to rent one for a day.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3034 on: January 07, 2018, 02:22:51 PM »
This experiment shows why many EVs are not quite ready for prime time for the majority of the (U.S.) population. ;D

A Firsthand Account About Renting Out An EV On Turo
https://insideevs.com/firsthand-account-renting-ev-turo/

No, it shows that a lot of US drivers don't know enough about low range EVs to rent one for a day.

But, short-range EVs accentuate the difference between EV and ICE cars.  Longer-range EVs make planning for a charge much more flexible — or even unneeded, other than home charging, perhaps.  That will make it less of a challenge for all those EV virgins.

People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3035 on: January 07, 2018, 02:36:28 PM »
We’ve previously discussed here the best models for charging stations away from home.  Today’s gas stations rarely have the ambience preferred for hanging out longer than a few minutes.  But trust Elon Musk to design “gas stations” for the EV age.  In Los Angeles.  With help from the Twitterverse. :)

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/949831212326993920

Elon Musk : Gonna put an old school drive-in, roller skates & rock restaurant at one of the new Tesla Supercharger locations in LA

- : will be able to order from the @tesla touch screen, right?

Elon Musk: Good idea. We can just have the menu pop up as soon as you put the car into park.

- : Please say there will be popcorn.

Elon Musk: Of course. And an outdoor screen that plays a highlight reel of the best scenes in movie history.

- : Irvine near 5 or 405 please

Elon Musk: Near 405
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3036 on: January 07, 2018, 05:51:17 PM »
This experiment shows why many EVs are not quite ready for prime time for the majority of the (U.S.) population. ;D

A Firsthand Account About Renting Out An EV On Turo
https://insideevs.com/firsthand-account-renting-ev-turo/

No, it shows that a lot of US drivers don't know enough about low range EVs to rent one for a day.

But, short-range EVs accentuate the difference between EV and ICE cars.  Longer-range EVs make planning for a charge much more flexible — or even unneeded, other than home charging, perhaps.  That will make it less of a challenge for all those EV virgins.

The article shows that a lot of US drivers don't know enough about low range EVs to rent one for a day.

Some didn't realize that they were renting an EV.  Some didn't know that they would need a place to plug in and charge (and they didn't).  Some thought that they could plug into the wall and get a full recharge in 20 minutes.


Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3037 on: January 07, 2018, 05:54:19 PM »
We’ve previously discussed here the best models for charging stations away from home.  Today’s gas stations rarely have the ambience preferred for hanging out longer than a few minutes.  But trust Elon Musk to design “gas stations” for the EV age.  In Los Angeles.  With help from the Twitterverse. :)

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/949831212326993920

Elon Musk : Gonna put an old school drive-in, roller skates & rock restaurant at one of the new Tesla Supercharger locations in LA

- : will be able to order from the @tesla touch screen, right?

Elon Musk: Good idea. We can just have the menu pop up as soon as you put the car into park.

- : Please say there will be popcorn.

Elon Musk: Of course. And an outdoor screen that plays a highlight reel of the best scenes in movie history.

- : Irvine near 5 or 405 please

Elon Musk: Near 405

I so love this. 

I'd rather see Tesla create 'food courts' around their large charging stations so people could have a variety of vendors.  But maybe there's not enough business to justify a lot of variety.



Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3038 on: January 07, 2018, 06:50:11 PM »
...

I'd rather see Tesla create 'food courts' around their large charging stations so people could have a variety of vendors.  But maybe there's not enough business to justify a lot of variety.

The building plans for the new Kettleman City, California, 40-stall charger include spaces for food trucks, as well as picnic tables and a pet area.  Image below from Electrek.

https://electrek.co/2017/07/11/tesla-supercharger-largest-ev-charging-station-world/

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-mega-supercharger-lounge-food-kids-area-kettleman-baker-ca/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3039 on: January 07, 2018, 06:52:57 PM »
This experiment shows why many EVs are not quite ready for prime time for the majority of the (U.S.) population. ;D

A Firsthand Account About Renting Out An EV On Turo
https://insideevs.com/firsthand-account-renting-ev-turo/

No, it shows that a lot of US drivers don't know enough about low range EVs to rent one for a day.

But, short-range EVs accentuate the difference between EV and ICE cars.  Longer-range EVs make planning for a charge much more flexible — or even unneeded, other than home charging, perhaps.  That will make it less of a challenge for all those EV virgins.

The article shows that a lot of US drivers don't know enough about low range EVs to rent one for a day.

Some didn't realize that they were renting an EV.  Some didn't know that they would need a place to plug in and charge (and they didn't).  Some thought that they could plug into the wall and get a full recharge in 20 minutes.

So, your argument seems to be that most people are EV-stupid, while mine is that more powerful EVs can make people appear less EV-stupid.  I think we’re both right. :)
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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3040 on: January 07, 2018, 07:41:59 PM »
...

I'd rather see Tesla create 'food courts' around their large charging stations so people could have a variety of vendors.  But maybe there's not enough business to justify a lot of variety.

The building plans for the new Kettleman City, California, 40-stall charger include spaces for food trucks, as well as picnic tables and a pet area.  Image below from Electrek.

https://electrek.co/2017/07/11/tesla-supercharger-largest-ev-charging-station-world/

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-mega-supercharger-lounge-food-kids-area-kettleman-baker-ca/


Food courts, picnic areas, variety stores, pet areas, and of course video parlors are already incorporated at the En Route stations found throughout Canada. Add e-charging and it's a done deal. 8)
Terry

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3041 on: January 07, 2018, 08:14:00 PM »
...

Food courts, picnic areas, variety stores, pet areas, and of course video parlors are already incorporated at the En Route stations found throughout Canada. Add e-charging and it's a done deal. 8)
Terry

Are those government operated? or a private company?  In some circumstances, contracts with a charging-vendor would (and does) work well.  But Tesla does not operate its superchargers for profit, so some facility owners might balk at that idea. (Right now, Tesla has the only big really-fast-charging network — but others are coming, particularly in Europe.)

However, I’ve seen it suggested that Germany, for example, would not want Tesla chargers anywhere near its rest areas, because the German-car business is huge and important and they don’t like Tesla taking their business. :o

Edit: And yes, drive-in restaurants with servers on roller-skates may work well in southern California’s desert climate and lifestyle, but maybe not everywhere else. ;D
« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 08:20:58 PM by Sigmetnow »
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ghoti

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3042 on: January 07, 2018, 08:16:59 PM »
En Route are privately operated rest stops just like the motorway service centers in the UK. Government ran a competitive process for the rights.

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3043 on: January 07, 2018, 10:40:33 PM »
...

Food courts, picnic areas, variety stores, pet areas, and of course video parlors are already incorporated at the En Route stations found throughout Canada. Add e-charging and it's a done deal. 8)
Terry

Are those government operated? or a private company?  In some circumstances, contracts with a charging-vendor would (and does) work well.  But Tesla does not operate its superchargers for profit, so some facility owners might balk at that idea. (Right now, Tesla has the only big really-fast-charging network — but others are coming, particularly in Europe.)

However, I’ve seen it suggested that Germany, for example, would not want Tesla chargers anywhere near its rest areas, because the German-car business is huge and important and they don’t like Tesla taking their business. :o

Edit: And yes, drive-in restaurants with servers on roller-skates may work well in southern California’s desert climate and lifestyle, but maybe not everywhere else. ;D
ghoti, or others may have a better understanding of the underpinnings than I.


That said the facilities are huge, with a treed park, picnic areas and dog runs. They're about 1 hour apart on major highways and are identical, or very similar in structure. The government builds the facilities, then leases the various profit centers to various companies, apparently on an individual basis.
They have their own off and on ramps, plenty of truck as well as auto parking, and they are always open. While other truck stops, restaurants, or gas stations require exiting the freeway, these allow a quick fill up, a pee break, a picnic with the family, or a sit down fast food repass from one of 3 or 4 vendors. I don't think opening a section for e-charging would be difficult, or even disruptive.
I was quite impressed with the system when I moved here from Nevada.
Terry

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3044 on: January 08, 2018, 12:24:11 AM »
There's no rest areas in Nevada?

I'm used to them throughout the northeast and midwest US -- particularly on toll roads, where the advantage of not needing to get on and off is even larger.

ghoti

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3045 on: January 08, 2018, 01:17:31 AM »
I found a response from the Minister of Transport of Ontario about EV charging at OnRoute locations. Here's the relevant part of the response:
Quote
Host Kilmer Service Centres (HKSC) Developments L.P. is the service provider operating and managing Ontario’s 23 Highway Service Centres on behalf of the Province. Electric vehicle charging stations were considered as part of the design at Ontario's service centres and conduit was installed in the ground to enable installation of charging station equipment in the future. As demand grows for electric vehicle recharging stations, HKSC will consider installing facilities in selected locations. They will continue to monitor the EV charging market and look at the best technology options to serve customers.
So...eventually?

TerryM

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3046 on: January 08, 2018, 02:41:58 AM »
numerobis

AFAIK there were no "rest areas" in Nevada in 2010, the last time I was in State, no toll roads either. :) California and Arizona both have a few rest areas, but without food or gas.
I do recall pull-offs similar to En Route on the Pennsy Pike back in the 60's.


ghoti
Good news indeed! Having them pre-wired will save bunches when the time comes.


Terry

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3047 on: January 08, 2018, 05:03:02 PM »
A very quick search shows EV charging stations on the (toll?) turnpike rest areas in Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Massachusetts and Florida.

This information on Florida charging stations sounds typical for Tesla; other charging companies may work a bit differently.  (Also, Tesla owners with the newest cars must now pay for supercharging):
http://www.floridasturnpike.com/sunpassages/15.summer/tesla-charging-stations.html
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BenB

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3048 on: January 09, 2018, 12:24:25 PM »
Interesting article highlighting the difference in scale between electric bus projects in Europe/North America and China:

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/01/06/not-just-shenzhen-jaw-dropping-china-electric-bus-roundup/

Highlights include:
Fuzhou Plans to Replace 1622 Traditionally Fuelled Buses with New Energy Buses by 2020 in a Phased Transition.
First batch of 438 Pure Electric Buses for Huangpu will be Fully Operational
Ankai Secures an Order of 400 City Buses from Hefei Public Transport
Hengyang Hunan: 400 BYD New Energy Buses will be Put into Operation Soon

Meanwhile:
Volvo’s Largest Electric Bus Order — 25 Volvo Electric Buses Ordered By Trondheim, Norway

Sleepy

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3049 on: January 09, 2018, 04:25:19 PM »
Food for thought.
https://twitter.com/tjukanov/status/949998992284422144
Quote
2018 remake of my accessibility visualization. Rush hour travel times from my home to everywhere in Helsinki region with different modes of transport:
- Pink = Car
- Yellow = Public transportation
- Green = Bike
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
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