Support the Arctic Sea Ice Forum and Blog

Author Topic: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....  (Read 1471703 times)

oren

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 9805
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 3584
  • Likes Given: 3922
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3100 on: January 15, 2018, 08:33:10 AM »
rboyd, don't forget ICE cars will also start to depreciate more quickly. It won't stop the transition. But a creative destruction phase is certainly coming.

Hefaistos

  • Guest
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3101 on: January 15, 2018, 08:39:35 AM »
Incumbent ICE producers got the message, now Ford:

"Ford Motor Co (F.N) will significantly increase its planned investments in electric vehicles to $11 billion by 2022 and have 40 hybrid and fully electric vehicles in its model lineup, Chairman Bill Ford said on Sunday at the Detroit auto show.

Ford Chief Executive Jim Hackett told investors in October the automaker would slash $14 billion in costs over the next five years and shift capital investment away from sedans and internal combustion engines to develop more trucks and electric and hybrid cars. "

“We’re all in on this and we’re taking our mainstream vehicles, our most iconic vehicles, and we’re electrifying them,” Ford told reporters. “If we want to be successful with electrification, we have to do it with vehicles that are already popular.”

Creative destruction of the ICE,  when they take their mainstream vehicles, the most iconic vehicles, and electrifying them.

Massive shift in investments!

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autoshow-detroit-ford-motor/ford-plans-11-billion-investment-40-electrified-vehicles-by-2022-idUSKBN1F30YZ

Hefaistos

  • Guest
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3102 on: January 15, 2018, 08:57:13 AM »
Wont be able to lease or finance an electric car?

A problem I see in the next decade period is that the rapidly falling cost of batteries will feed into a constantly falling cost of electric cars. Once the battery has fallen in cost so far that it becomes a small part of the overall cost that will no longer be an issue, but it will be in the now to 2030 time period.

The falling cost will of course destroy the resale value of ICE cars (causing major issues for car financing and leasing companies, as well as individuals who borrowed to buy a car), but will also lead to the rapid depreciation of previously-sold new electric cars. The result will be much greater levels of assumed deprecation, which will lead to higher lease payments and shorter loan maturities. It will also cause problems for car rental and other car fleet companies.

Again, as the cars get cheaper and stabilize in price (as the battery cost becomes less and less a share of the overall cost) this will not be an issue. But in the interim, up to maybe 2030, it may act to hold back a transition. The result may be a significant drop in car sales until the issue works itself out, causing big problems for car manufacturers (in addition to the destruction in the value of their current assets).


True, and all the more so as battery technology is not mature yet. We might see disruptive technological changes to battery tech, e.g. solid-state batteries. However, there might be remedies. The central issue here, it seems to me, is who will carry the risk? Why should the risk be put entirely on the consumer side? Car producers might just as well share the risk with consumers.

Once the battery car becomes evidently cheaper to buy and own than the ICE, consumers will anyway not want the ICE. They will go for the EV.

Consumers will want to be protected from quick deterioration of used car value. The one item causing problems with this, is the battery. Solution:
EV car producers offer a car where:
1. the battery is easy to swap
2. consumers lease the battery
3. there are clauses giving rights to consumers to cancel battery agreements, fixed repurchase values of batteries.

Don't worry, rboyd, the Big Money is right now moving into EV, and all that big $ and many clever people will find solutions that mitigate consumers' worries.

Also, these kind of technologically driven fast depreciations haven't scared consumers away from buying IT (smartphones, computers etc.) We still want to have the latest tech, the best tech, very well knowing it will quickly depreciate in value. True, a car is more costly, but it is also a cool gadget for many people.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 09:02:20 AM by Hefaistos »

numerobis

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 837
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 16
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3103 on: January 15, 2018, 03:04:40 PM »
I’m not seeing the fundamental problem in car financing. You can get an unsecured loan from the bank to buy whatever you want, even to throw a party. They only care about the likelihood you’ll pay the loan. If you’re securing the loan, the potential resale value of the asset offered as security can reduce the interest rate, because you’re more likely to pay (out of fear of losing the asset), and if you don’t, the bank might get a few bucks back from the default proceedings.

Worst case for buyers, the resale value of the car falls to zero and the interest rate on car loans go up a couple percentage points.

Bob Wallace

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3855
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 41
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3104 on: January 15, 2018, 05:55:13 PM »
If you purchase an ICEV later on in the transition to EVs you may be stuck with it.  Your car, by the end of a five, six year payoff may have almost no resale value.  For many people that will mean that they will drive their car longer than they otherwise would. 

I don't see any forced large financial loss for anyone here.  Just some disappointment because some people won't be driving a more current year car.

Some data:
$31,252 - average selling price US car 2013
$23,523 - value one year later
$16,867 - value three years later
$11,629 - value five years later

If you absolutely have to have a new car after three or five years then you'd have to pay some penalty.  But at five years the car should still have a few more years of reliable service so you wouldn't be forced to lose money.

People who buy a new ICEV and drive it about eight years wouldn't lose much money by sending it to the crusher.

I suspect we'll have a period during the transition where people with limited budgets will be able to drive some fairly nice ICEVs while they wait for adequately depreciated EVs to become available.

SteveMDFP

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2476
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 583
  • Likes Given: 42
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3105 on: January 15, 2018, 06:01:59 PM »
Wont be able to lease or finance an electric car?

A problem I see in the next decade period is that the rapidly falling cost of batteries will feed into a constantly falling cost of electric cars. Once the battery has fallen in cost so far that it becomes a small part of the overall cost that will no longer be an issue, but it will be in the now to 2030 time period.

The falling cost will of course destroy the resale value of ICE cars (causing major issues for car financing and leasing companies, as well as individuals who borrowed to buy a car), but will also lead to the rapid depreciation of previously-sold new electric cars. The result will be much greater levels of assumed deprecation, which will lead to higher lease payments and shorter loan maturities. It will also cause problems for car rental and other car fleet companies.

Again, as the cars get cheaper and stabilize in price (as the battery cost becomes less and less a share of the overall cost) this will not be an issue. But in the interim, up to maybe 2030, it may act to hold back a transition. The result may be a significant drop in car sales until the issue works itself out, causing big problems for car manufacturers (in addition to the destruction in the value of their current assets).

The more I think about this (plus the effect of driverless cars) the more I see a brutal Schumpeterian type creative destruction process which in the short-term may be extremely disruptive to the economy.

I don't think ever-cheaper batteries will likely cause a problem for sales of EVs.  A well-designed EV should be able to have its battery pack swapped out without excessive cost.  So when we buy an EV, we might plan on getting battery pack upgrades every 2 years.  The swapped-out packs will still have substantial value, if only for grid/home storage purposes.  So the planned cost of upgrades should be quite reasonable -- if the car manufacturer has planned for this and committed to upgrades that are compatible with previously-sold models.

Bob Wallace

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3855
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 41
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3106 on: January 15, 2018, 06:11:38 PM »
If you buy an EV with at least a 200 mile range and there's a rapid charge system for long trips why would you upgrade your battery?  Even a lower range EV that was purchased for local driving would still do what it was expected to do.

People don't do engine swaps if a more powerful or more efficient engine is developed.  If, for some reason, they really, really want that new engine they trade in their current vehicle. 

BenB

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 283
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 51
  • Likes Given: 13
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3107 on: January 15, 2018, 06:42:08 PM »
I don't think leasing is a great problem. At the moment, apparently around 80% of EVs in the US are leased:

 https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-03/why-most-electric-cars-are-leased-not-owned

 EV manufacturers are also offering lots of low interest finance deals.

Alexander555

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2503
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 185
  • Likes Given: 49
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3108 on: January 15, 2018, 07:57:49 PM »
I don't think leasing is a great problem. At the moment, apparently around 80% of EVs in the US are leased:

 https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-03/why-most-electric-cars-are-leased-not-owned

 EV manufacturers are also offering lots of low interest finance deals.

" You don't buy an EV to save money" .

That depends. A few weeks ago i was on a Nissan leaf forum. And they were talking about the price of a new battery for a leaf. And that was 5000 usd. That conversation was from 2016 , so i don't know if they got bigger by now. But if you can dubble the time that you can use the car for 5000 usd. And it costs less for the electricity than for the diesel or gas. And there are much less parts that can break down. You probably drive a lot cheaper. If you would not care to drive with the car for 20 years or more.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25761
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1153
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3109 on: January 15, 2018, 08:23:24 PM »
Wont be able to lease or finance an electric car?
...

The more I think about this (plus the effect of driverless cars) the more I see a brutal Schumpeterian type creative destruction process which in the short-term may be extremely disruptive to the economy.

You make good points.  Depreciation and increasingly affordable prices will certainly shake up the industry — and the economy.  But it’s an industry/economy that is too big to let fail, so I imagine that between the industry and the government, the market will be adjusted to help drive ;) the growth of autonomous driving and ride-sharing, creating a revolution in personal transportation and vehicle ownership.

How?  Say I have an old car.  It’s worth next to nothing as a trade-in, or maybe the lease is costing me more than the car is worth; the best bet might be to give it to a “Cash for Clunkers” program and take it off the road for good.  Then, I might see if I can make do without owning a car at all, if one of those newfangled ride-sharing outfits is available.

Or, if I have a little money and an entrepreneurial spirit, perhaps I will get a car that will pay me back, by being part of a ride-sharing service.  Elon Musk wrote:
Quote
When true self-driving is approved by regulators, it will mean that you will be able to summon your Tesla from pretty much anywhere. Once it picks you up, you will be able to sleep, read or do anything else enroute to your destination.

You will also be able to add your car to the Tesla shared fleet just by tapping a button on the Tesla phone app and have it generate income for you while you're at work or on vacation, significantly offsetting and at times potentially exceeding the monthly loan or lease cost. This dramatically lowers the true cost of ownership to the point where almost anyone could own a Tesla. Since most cars are only in use by their owner for 5% to 10% of the day, the fundamental economic utility of a true self-driving car is likely to be several times that of a car which is not.

In cities where demand exceeds the supply of customer-owned cars, Tesla will operate its own fleet, ensuring you can always hail a ride from us no matter where you are.
https://www.tesla.com/blog/master-plan-part-deux


Depreciation of EVs was significant as recently as 2013-2014, but the value of (and demand for) newer models has upended that:

Tesla Model S retains its value better than gas-powered cars in its segment, losing only 28% after 50k miles
https://electrek.co/2016/09/13/tesla-model-s-value-retention-leading-segment-losing-only-28-after-50k-miles/

More on depreciation:

Quote
As Chris Cooper wrote in a comment under the recent article I mentioned at the top, “You missed the single largest financial benefit to owning an EV. That’s depreciation — or rather lack of it.”

Going on:
“I bought my P85 a year and a half ago, and today it’s worth exactly what I paid for it, on the second hand market. It’s a free EV in one sense, certainly cheaper than a cheapy ICE car. Why don’t people realize depreciation is a game changer for EV value. Don’t focus on the cost of the EV, focus on the value. Which for second hand Teslas is always far higher than any equivalent luxury car. I’ve no idea why this isn’t marketed more widely as a benefit. I challenge you to write a whole CleanTech story about EV depreciation being close to zero, just like the cost to run them. Now if that doesn’t get you driving one, what will! The cost of interest on a Tesla loan can come out of running savings on gas and servicing. Anyone like a Tesla for free? It is possible. I’ve done it — surely others have? I’ve heard Tesla restricting sales to some who have been making a profit selling them second hand even. Tesla is an investment that makes far more sense than buying a petrol car — on depreciation alone, which exceeds the petrol savings over five years easily I believe. Tell me I’m wrong!” 
https://cleantechnica.com/2016/09/03/depreciation-electric-cars-today-tomorrow-2020/


The old established automakers will also need help.  They have hundreds of billions of dollars in ICE assets that will be nearly worthless in a new EV world.
“The incumbents cannot embrace long-range BEV because it would kill their gas-engine cash cow, so they must move at most slowly, providing only short-range BEVs that do not disrupt.”

This link from 2016 shows several automakers’ ICE assets, how long it may take to amortize them, and why EV-only startups such as Tesla may come out ahead:
http://tesla.dauger.com/disrupts/incumbentsshackles.html
« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 08:31:46 PM by Sigmetnow »
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25761
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1153
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3110 on: January 15, 2018, 08:30:38 PM »
Volvo Cars Drive Me project is finally launched.
https://www.volvocars.com/en-om/about/our-innovation-brands/intellisafe/autonomous-driving/drive-me
The first of 100 families got their car back in December. Paula Hain was hoping to have a car where she could get a nap while en route to her morning flight.
https://www.svt.se/nyheter/vetenskap/paula-hain-ar-mer-uppmarksam-nu
Oh what a shame.

Not happening.

It did. Two families got their cars in December and another three in January. Didn't translate work on the second link? My real point though, is now in bold.

The article I quoted said pretty much what you bolded: Volvo full automation is not happening for years; current testing is limited to drivers-assist mode only.  (I did translate and read your article. :) )
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Bob Wallace

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3855
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 41
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3111 on: January 15, 2018, 09:32:56 PM »
A lot of the hair on fire articles about EV depreciation based their math on the list price of the car, not what buyers paid after subsidies.

$30,000 - $7,500 federal tax credit = $22,500.

A 19% first year depreciation off a $30k EV = $24,500.  It would make no sense to pay $24.5k for a one year old car when you can buy the next year's model for $22.5k.

pileus

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 536
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 45
  • Likes Given: 9
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3112 on: January 15, 2018, 11:45:47 PM »
It’s probably covered up thread, but how long do folks here think before roving fleets of on demand autonomous vehicles reach critical mass so that owning ANY type of vehicle is no longer required for those of us that need to travel on roads?

I’d like to have an EV, but I’d also prefer to avoid the investment and instead hang on to my ICE car if autonomous vehicles are on the (reasonable) horizon.

Bob Wallace

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3855
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 41
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3113 on: January 15, 2018, 11:54:28 PM »
It’s probably covered up thread, but how long do folks here think before roving fleets of on demand autonomous vehicles reach critical mass so that owning ANY type of vehicle is no longer required for those of us that need to travel on roads?

I’d like to have an EV, but I’d also prefer to avoid the investment and instead hang on to my ICE car if autonomous vehicles are on the (reasonable) horizon.

That will be easier to predict once we see GM, Tesla or some other company putting self-driving vehicles on the road.  That may happen within the year or it might take a little longer.

Once we have truly self-driving EVs I suspect the roll out will be rapid.  A year or two of limited sized fleets in a few cities while the bugs are squashed and while more areas are mapped. 

After that the rate of implementation will probably depend on how rapidly car manufacturers can turn out the needed vehicles.

I'm in the same boat.  I've got the money set aside for a T3 but won't buy until it's clear that the car will be self-driving.  And if the T3 is self-driving then it shouldn't be long before robotaxis are available.  And if I can phone for a ride I see no sense in owning an EV. 


TerryM

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6002
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 893
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3114 on: January 16, 2018, 12:50:40 AM »
On topic, but from a different angle.


I've seen a few representations of what an autonomous EV will look like, but can't help wonder if other factors might not come into play.


Presently we have windows everywhere. Will non drivers care so much for viewing the passing vehicles and landmarks, or might privacy, lack of glare, and comfortable lighting take president.
While rushing to work would a desk, computer and communications take precedence over a fine view of the road? Would some prefer a bed or a wide couch instead of being strapped upright?


I recall a few of the custom vans from the 70's that provided a bed, a sink, a toilet. a refrigerator, even small TVs. Wouldn't this prove a boon when actually driving the beast didn't need to be a consideration?


What design of cab would be preferable for cruising the red light districts?
Would an espresso machine and toaster oven be useful for those racing to the office, or would an overstuffed chair, a large screen TV and popcorn machine be useful for the long commute home?


All of these configurations are available now, but now we need to make accommodations for an ever attentive driver. For some reason most prefer to drive alone. What forms of portable Man Caves, or She Sheds are likely to appear?


Terry

Bob Wallace

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3855
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 41
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3115 on: January 16, 2018, 02:00:56 AM »
I think that, after some time for the industry to mature, riders will be able to request one of an assortment of vehicles.  Normal work commuting might provide work surfaces.  Going on a scenic drive might mean lots of glass or a convertible.  Going on a vacation might mean some sort of RV, from a small vehicle that sleeps a couple people tent-style, to a large rolling cabin.

I suspect we'll see one or two person options.  And options up to 50 or more passengers.  Cargo vans.  Whatever the market will support.

pileus

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 536
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 45
  • Likes Given: 9
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3116 on: January 16, 2018, 02:15:12 AM »
I think that, after some time for the industry to mature, riders will be able to request one of an assortment of vehicles.  Normal work commuting might provide work surfaces.  Going on a scenic drive might mean lots of glass or a convertible.  Going on a vacation might mean some sort of RV, from a small vehicle that sleeps a couple people tent-style, to a large rolling cabin.

I suspect we'll see one or two person options.  And options up to 50 or more passengers.  Cargo vans.  Whatever the market will support.

You’d also have to think that augmented/virtual reality and all sorts of AI wrt entertaining passengers or keeping them productive will find its way into future vehicles, instead of physical components and accessories.

Bob Wallace

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3855
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 41
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3117 on: January 16, 2018, 04:07:27 AM »
Even now every seat could have a nice individual screen that could operate off ones smartphone so that, if you want, you could watch a movie or videos as you rode.

If you want to do some work add a dropdown keyboard and trackball.

Sleepy

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1202
  • Retired, again...
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 120
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3118 on: January 16, 2018, 05:09:52 AM »
Volvo Cars Drive Me project is finally launched.
https://www.volvocars.com/en-om/about/our-innovation-brands/intellisafe/autonomous-driving/drive-me
The first of 100 families got their car back in December. Paula Hain was hoping to have a car where she could get a nap while en route to her morning flight.
https://www.svt.se/nyheter/vetenskap/paula-hain-ar-mer-uppmarksam-nu
Oh what a shame.

Not happening.

It did. Two families got their cars in December and another three in January. Didn't translate work on the second link? My real point though, is now in bold.

The article I quoted said pretty much what you bolded: Volvo full automation is not happening for years; current testing is limited to drivers-assist mode only.  (I did translate and read your article. :) )
Correct, full automation was never mentioned. Also in the bolded part, morning flights are soo green. Aren't we wonderful in our transformation over here? Maybe in the future... Ah well, maybe the US will adopt faster. in the future?  ;D
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
-
Science is a jealous mistress and takes little account of a man's feelings.

oren

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 9805
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 3584
  • Likes Given: 3922
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3119 on: January 16, 2018, 10:33:24 AM »
It’s probably covered up thread, but how long do folks here think before roving fleets of on demand autonomous vehicles reach critical mass so that owning ANY type of vehicle is no longer required for those of us that need to travel on roads?

I’d like to have an EV, but I’d also prefer to avoid the investment and instead hang on to my ICE car if autonomous vehicles are on the (reasonable) horizon.
I assume you mean on demand autonomous vehicles widely deployed across the country with rates far cheaper than current taxis, that make it a no-brainer to travel anywhere you need with a taxi.
IMHO you can buy an EV and get a good use out of it before this becomes a reality. First there's the technological hurdle still not overcome, then there is wide deployment, then there is the issue of rates that will take time to drop. I doubt the whole thing completes before 2025.

Sleepy

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1202
  • Retired, again...
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 120
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3120 on: January 16, 2018, 11:05:27 AM »
Two autonomous 12 passenger mini buses will drive this distance in Stockholm/Kista, starting now in January.
https://goo.gl/maps/2UpdabDbAk42

Check out the speed in the video here:
https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/stockholm/fran-och-med-januari-kan-du-aka-i-forarlos-buss-i-kista
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
-
Science is a jealous mistress and takes little account of a man's feelings.

TerryM

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6002
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 893
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3121 on: January 16, 2018, 01:31:08 PM »
Two autonomous 12 passenger mini buses will drive this distance in Stockholm/Kista, starting now in January.
https://goo.gl/maps/2UpdabDbAk42

Check out the speed in the video here:
https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/stockholm/fran-och-med-januari-kan-du-aka-i-forarlos-buss-i-kista
They might have difficulties getting through an interchange before the light changes. :)
Terry

Buddy

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3379
  • Go DUCKS!!
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 49
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3122 on: January 16, 2018, 04:32:18 PM »
250,000 Lyft users sold their cars/second cars in 2017....

https://www.educateddriver.org/lyft-wants-to-eliminate-second-car/

And yes....this impacts 2nd or 3rd/4th cars primarily.  Eventually it will impact MANY 1st cars...especially those that live in expensive cities like NY, Boston, etc....where it costs a BUNCH to have a parking space(s)....and where it is so easy to get a Lyft/Uber ride...

FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Bob Wallace

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3855
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 41
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3123 on: January 16, 2018, 05:27:37 PM »
Quote
250,000 Lyft users sold their cars/second cars in 2017

That is very interesting.  The cost of a robotaxi ride should be considerably lower than a Lyft or Uber ride. 

ritter

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 573
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 24
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3124 on: January 16, 2018, 07:08:38 PM »
It’s probably covered up thread, but how long do folks here think before roving fleets of on demand autonomous vehicles reach critical mass so that owning ANY type of vehicle is no longer required for those of us that need to travel on roads?

I’d like to have an EV, but I’d also prefer to avoid the investment and instead hang on to my ICE car if autonomous vehicles are on the (reasonable) horizon.
I assume you mean on demand autonomous vehicles widely deployed across the country with rates far cheaper than current taxis, that make it a no-brainer to travel anywhere you need with a taxi.
IMHO you can buy an EV and get a good use out of it before this becomes a reality. First there's the technological hurdle still not overcome, then there is wide deployment, then there is the issue of rates that will take time to drop. I doubt the whole thing completes before 2025.

It will easily be 2025 before there is wide deployment of autonomous vehicles. That's a lot of CO2 emissions if you wait. Just sayin. ;)

ritter

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 573
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 24
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3125 on: January 16, 2018, 07:15:10 PM »
I don't think leasing is a great problem. At the moment, apparently around 80% of EVs in the US are leased:

 https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-03/why-most-electric-cars-are-leased-not-owned

 EV manufacturers are also offering lots of low interest finance deals.

" You don't buy an EV to save money" .

That depends. A few weeks ago i was on a Nissan leaf forum. And they were talking about the price of a new battery for a leaf. And that was 5000 usd. That conversation was from 2016 , so i don't know if they got bigger by now. But if you can dubble the time that you can use the car for 5000 usd. And it costs less for the electricity than for the diesel or gas. And there are much less parts that can break down. You probably drive a lot cheaper. If you would not care to drive with the car for 20 years or more.

I can't say I've saved much money on fuel by switching to an EV. However, my switch was from a VW TDI that was averaging 50 mpg on my commute. Depending on the cost of diesel and electricity, it's not easy to say I save a ton. However, my CO2 emissions are now 0 on the commute. The smugness of that is easily worth the cost of my geothermally-derived electricity. Sometimes, you've got to do the right thing, even if it costs a bit more.

My Leaf is leased but I'll buy it out when the lease is up for my daughter's first car. Then, it will be on to a newer generation EV that has more than an 85 mile range. I won't buy another ICE car. (full disclosure, our family vehicle is an ICE but the vast sum of mileage is in the EV)

Hefaistos

  • Guest
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3126 on: January 16, 2018, 08:08:26 PM »
It’s probably covered up thread, but how long do folks here think before roving fleets of on demand autonomous vehicles reach critical mass so that owning ANY type of vehicle is no longer required for those of us that need to travel on roads?

I’d like to have an EV, but I’d also prefer to avoid the investment and instead hang on to my ICE car if autonomous vehicles are on the (reasonable) horizon.
I assume you mean on demand autonomous vehicles widely deployed across the country with rates far cheaper than current taxis, that make it a no-brainer to travel anywhere you need with a taxi.
IMHO you can buy an EV and get a good use out of it before this becomes a reality. First there's the technological hurdle still not overcome, then there is wide deployment, then there is the issue of that will take time to drop. I doubt the whole thing completes before 2025.

Also, we have some serious legal issues with self driving cars in terms of liability whenever accidents will happen with humans/human driven cars. Some cases will have to be processed through the court system, maybe to Supreme court until it's clear where responsibilites lie. Those things take time and until the legal issues are cleared I suppose it will be a hurdle on the use of self driving cars, esp. as robotaxis. 2025 seems reasonable.

Bob Wallace

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3855
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 41
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3127 on: January 16, 2018, 09:08:24 PM »
Quote
Also, we have some serious legal issues with self driving cars in terms of liability whenever accidents will happen with humans/human driven cars. Some cases will have to be processed through the court system, maybe to Supreme court until it's clear where responsibilites lie. Those things take time and until the legal issues are cleared I suppose it will be a hurdle on the use of self driving cars, esp. as robotaxis. 2025 seems reasonable.

Companies will have to demonstrate reasonable safety before they are allowed to operate on public roads.  That data is already being collected.

If there is a crash involving a self-driving car as with any crash there will be an onsite determination of fault by the investigating officers.  They will look at the evidence at the scene and assess responsibility.

If either party involved disagrees with the assessment they will be able to seek a hearing in order to present their evidence.  The self-driving cars are going to be able to bring a lot of data to the hearing. 

If the self-driving software was at fault then the company that owned the car will turn to the software company for restitution.  Companies will likely use a combination of self-insurance and other company umbrella insurance to pay for any judgements against them.

If there is a pattern of problems with one flavor of self-driving software then the company will be forced to fix.

.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25761
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1153
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3128 on: January 17, 2018, 01:07:24 AM »
Teaching cars to understand humans.

”What’s easy for humans to understand, becomes a challenge for the machine. After the machine recognized that this object in fact is a human, the machine has to recognize in a next step that the human is doing a gesture. But is this a gesture meant for the car or not? And what’s the context of the gesture? [Is] the human giving the signal a pedestrian wanting to cross the street, or a police [officer] asking the car to stop for inspection? Or is the person making the gesture somebody with nefarious intent? A person kneeling down may just fix her shoelaces, or [be] a runner getting ready for a quick dash.”

Humanising Autonomy Or How Do Humans Communicate With Self-Driving Cars?
https://thelastdriverlicenseholder.com/2018/01/15/humanising-autonomy-or-how-do-humans-communicate-with-self-driving-cars/
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 01:15:06 AM by Sigmetnow »
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

pileus

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 536
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 45
  • Likes Given: 9
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3129 on: January 17, 2018, 03:02:05 AM »
It’s probably covered up thread, but how long do folks here think before roving fleets of on demand autonomous vehicles reach critical mass so that owning ANY type of vehicle is no longer required for those of us that need to travel on roads?

I’d like to have an EV, but I’d also prefer to avoid the investment and instead hang on to my ICE car if autonomous vehicles are on the (reasonable) horizon.
I assume you mean on demand autonomous vehicles widely deployed across the country with rates far cheaper than current taxis, that make it a no-brainer to travel anywhere you need with a taxi.
IMHO you can buy an EV and get a good use out of it before this becomes a reality. First there's the technological hurdle still not overcome, then there is wide deployment, then there is the issue of rates that will take time to drop. I doubt the whole thing completes before 2025.

It will easily be 2025 before there is wide deployment of autonomous vehicles. That's a lot of CO2 emissions if you wait. Just sayin. ;)

Looks like around 2025 is a common prediction.  Last year I fled the suburbs and moved to an urban core.  I now drive 12 daily miles round trip to work during the week, but otherwise walk most everywhere else, with the rare long distance excursion via car.  All of the walking has helped me become as healthy as I’ve been in decades, and my ICE vehicle sits idle almost all the time.  I suppose my modest commute is a good candidate for an EV, but I’m actually motivated to find work within a walkable distance to my residence.  I could then ditch the car entirely, and rely on ride hailing services when the need arises. 

I’ve found separating from dependence on a car to be much more liberating than what Madison Ave has been selling forever, the supposed freedom that comes along with a car and the open road.

Sleepy

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1202
  • Retired, again...
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 120
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3130 on: January 17, 2018, 09:20:32 AM »
Common predictions are pretty useless when it comes to legal matters. We might see an governmental investigation here in Sweden in March. Other than that, this is the only real study on this subject (that I've seen) and it's a year old now.
http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/record.jsf?pid=diva2%3A1061449&dswid=-2823
Quote
Abstract [en]

The objective of this report is to analyse the legal prerequisites for liability under criminal law regarding self-driving vehicles. This includes making visible and problematize legal constructions of responsibility in Criminal Law, and its concepts and principles that follow in relation to the knowledge developed within the field of Artificial Intelligence.

The overall question, which focuses on the Swedish Penal Code, is how criminal liability is constructed in law and if these constructions are compatible with the development of self-driving vehicles technologies. The sub question is what or which elements constitute legal responsibility and accountability under the Road Traffic Offences Act. The project aims to contribute to a deeper understanding of the law, the power that Law exercises, and its role and function in society, but also how technology impacts on the content of Law. The theoretical inspiration has been derived mainly from legal theories that give attention to and elucidate the relationship between Law and Society, and in addition, theories and perspectives of Criminal Law. The study uses traditional legal methods developed in jurisprudence; this means applying legal sources such as preparatory works and Jurisprudence literature in the interpretation of legal provisions.

The analysis shows that self-driving vehicles technologies are challenging Law in many ways inter alia the concept of “legal subject”. Furthermore, it reveals that general provisions as well as concepts and principles in the Swedish Penal Code and the Constitutional Law are not well adapted to the technology in question. The concept “legal subject” is based on an image of a human as an autonomous being. As such, she has the ability of good judgment and is wise and insightful. She is also assumed to be free to make her own decisions without being subordinate to others. In a broader perspective the Law defines what it is like to be a human being. In contrary, robot’s autonomy is determined where a human is situated in the "decision-loop". This study argues that the time is ripe to seriously discuss the concept "legal autonomy" particularly in relation to self-driving vehicles since the technology involved is challenging the very foundation of Law. Furthermore, that the legal concept autonomy should instead be understood as a relational concept since this approach embraces the relationship between the physical driver and the automated system of the self-driving vehicle.

The paper itself is in Swedish and not easily translated, but here's an interview with Wanna Svedberg from last year which translates well enough:
https://www.nyteknik.se/fordon/sa-kan-lagen-for-sjalvkorande-bilar-bli-6851504

Then we might also consider how we humans would treat automated vehicles in traffic. Pedestrians and bikers would probably just let the automated vehicles wait, or can we make ourselves fully autonomous as well?  ;D
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 11:37:29 AM by Sleepy »
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
-
Science is a jealous mistress and takes little account of a man's feelings.

Bob Wallace

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3855
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 41
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3131 on: January 17, 2018, 03:49:58 PM »
Quote
Then we might also consider how we humans would treat automated vehicles in traffic.

We might have to change the duties of traffic officers from dealing with speeders, texters, and driving under the influence idiots as well as working traffic crashes to enforcing pedestrian misbehavior.

Intentionally interfering with self-driving cars and illegally crossing streets might be where we would have to put efforts.  But wouldn't that be preferable to tens of thousands of unnecessary deaths each year?

Buddy

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3379
  • Go DUCKS!!
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 49
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3132 on: January 17, 2018, 04:27:04 PM »
US vehicle sales from 1977 t0 2017.  Sales down from 17.46 mill in 2016 to 17.13 mill last year (2017).


https://www.statista.com/statistics/199983/us-vehicle-sales-since-1951/


FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25761
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1153
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3133 on: January 17, 2018, 04:52:39 PM »
Updated way to measure your transportation GHG emissions.  Based on the U.S. and Canada.

Essential infographics for the climate-conscious traveller
Quote
...Even a very generous share of the global 2C Carbon Budget means Canadians and Americans will need to average around one tonne of CO2 per year over the next several decades from on all personal transportation. Currently we travel around 20,000 km per year. So a rough rule of thumb for 2C-compatible travel is to choose options that can take people 20,000 km or more per tonne of CO2 (tCO2). ...
https://www.nationalobserver.com/2016/02/25/analysis/essential-infographics-climate-conscious-traveller

First graph is by km, second graph is by grams of emissions.  You want to be in the green range — see the article for details.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 05:03:50 PM by Sigmetnow »
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

numerobis

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 837
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 16
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3134 on: January 17, 2018, 06:04:43 PM »
Updated way to measure your transportation GHG emissions.  Based on the U.S. and Canada.
[...]
First graph is by km, second graph is by grams of emissions.  You want to be in the green range — see the article for details.

Well, not really. I want to multiply my transports by the distances I cover. I have a gasoline-powered car but it's been doing half the annual distance on average in its life, with a lot fewer km these days.

On the flip side, I fly and buy flown goods a lot, and my electricity is very dirty.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25761
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1153
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3135 on: January 17, 2018, 06:11:24 PM »
Updated way to measure your transportation GHG emissions.  Based on the U.S. and Canada.
[...]
First graph is by km, second graph is by grams of emissions.  You want to be in the green range — see the article for details.

Well, not really. I want to multiply my transports by the distances I cover. I have a gasoline-powered car but it's been doing half the annual distance on average in its life, with a lot fewer km these days.

On the flip side, I fly and buy flown goods a lot, and my electricity is very dirty.

Valid point.  It’s more of a “way to compare the GHG emissions of your transportation options.”  :)
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25761
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1153
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3136 on: January 17, 2018, 06:17:38 PM »
”“What we learned from this first cycle of electrification is people want really nice products.”

It is both painful and hilarious to watch the big automakers grind their way toward the EV market of the future.

Ford plans $11 billion investment, 40 electrified vehicles by 2022
Quote
Ford Motor Co (F.N) will significantly increase its planned investments in electric vehicles to $11 billion by 2022 and have 40 hybrid and fully electric vehicles in its model lineup, Chairman Bill Ford said on Sunday at the Detroit auto show.
Quote
GM Chief Executive Mary Barra has promised investors the Detroit automaker will make money selling electric cars by 2021.
Quote
Volkswagen said in November it would spend $40 billion on electric cars, autonomous driving and new mobility services by the end of 2022 – significantly more than when it announced two months earlier it would invest more than 20 billion euros on electric and self-driving cars through 2030.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autoshow-detroit-ford-motor/ford-plans-11-billion-investment-40-electrified-vehicles-by-2022-idUSKBN1F30YZ
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

numerobis

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 837
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 16
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3137 on: January 17, 2018, 06:17:49 PM »
I'm surprised that AMTRAK and VIA are so bad. I'd have expected they'd be better than the bus, or at least no worse.

ritter

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 573
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 24
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3138 on: January 17, 2018, 06:21:23 PM »
It’s probably covered up thread, but how long do folks here think before roving fleets of on demand autonomous vehicles reach critical mass so that owning ANY type of vehicle is no longer required for those of us that need to travel on roads?

I’d like to have an EV, but I’d also prefer to avoid the investment and instead hang on to my ICE car if autonomous vehicles are on the (reasonable) horizon.
I assume you mean on demand autonomous vehicles widely deployed across the country with rates far cheaper than current taxis, that make it a no-brainer to travel anywhere you need with a taxi.
IMHO you can buy an EV and get a good use out of it before this becomes a reality. First there's the technological hurdle still not overcome, then there is wide deployment, then there is the issue of rates that will take time to drop. I doubt the whole thing completes before 2025.

It will easily be 2025 before there is wide deployment of autonomous vehicles. That's a lot of CO2 emissions if you wait. Just sayin. ;)

Looks like around 2025 is a common prediction.  Last year I fled the suburbs and moved to an urban core.  I now drive 12 daily miles round trip to work during the week, but otherwise walk most everywhere else, with the rare long distance excursion via car.  All of the walking has helped me become as healthy as I’ve been in decades, and my ICE vehicle sits idle almost all the time.  I suppose my modest commute is a good candidate for an EV, but I’m actually motivated to find work within a walkable distance to my residence.  I could then ditch the car entirely, and rely on ride hailing services when the need arises. 

I’ve found separating from dependence on a car to be much more liberating than what Madison Ave has been selling forever, the supposed freedom that comes along with a car and the open road.

Walking is, of course, superior to an EV.  :) With your description, I'd probably sell the car and rent one if I had to leave town. I've lived in the city with a car and it's more of a liability than anything.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25761
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1153
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3139 on: January 17, 2018, 07:39:19 PM »
I'm surprised that AMTRAK and VIA are so bad. I'd have expected they'd be better than the bus, or at least no worse.

I was shocked, too.  It seems like everything I read claims trains are the best. 
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

numerobis

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 837
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 16
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3140 on: January 17, 2018, 08:37:15 PM »
It mentions EuroStar as being very clean, but still less clean than a full-occupancy electric car (but maybe that makes sense given it goes 300 km/h rather than a mere 100 km/h).

Alexander555

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2503
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 185
  • Likes Given: 49
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3141 on: January 17, 2018, 08:58:19 PM »
Quote
Then we might also consider how we humans would treat automated vehicles in traffic.

We might have to change the duties of traffic officers from dealing with speeders, texters, and driving under the influence idiots as well as working traffic crashes to enforcing pedestrian misbehavior.

Intentionally interfering with self-driving cars and illegally crossing streets might be where we would have to put efforts.  But wouldn't that be preferable to tens of thousands of unnecessary deaths each year?

In France they burn a thousand cars every year at New Year, just for fun. North-African gangs. And i'm pretty sure there will be much more people that are going to have much more fun to burn these self-driving cars. The same in Sweden, they also have cars burning at regular times. Also African gangs. So i think the number of areas where they can use these cars will be very limited. Probably they will just make more people feel angry. And i think you already have plenty of them walking around on this planet. And than it does'nt matter how good your intentions are. But it would probably be good for the climate, they could take plenty of cars of the road. But i have a bad feeling about it. And how good will it work if the scale is small. Than it will just mean more competition, lower prices , and more angry people. So i think the car manufacturers are waisting their time on it. They should better focus on electrical cars.

Bob Wallace

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3855
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 41
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3142 on: January 18, 2018, 03:51:09 AM »
Oooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, those scary dark hued people................

Alexander555

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2503
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 185
  • Likes Given: 49
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3143 on: January 18, 2018, 07:39:24 AM »
Oooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, those scary dark hued people................

It's not only the dark people. If you look at the car sales in the US. It's all heavy 4x4 drives and heavy SUV's. Nobody cares about the climate, besides a handfull of people. 

Bob Wallace

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3855
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 41
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3144 on: January 18, 2018, 07:55:30 AM »
Quote
If you look at the car sales in the US. It's all heavy 4x4 drives and heavy SUV's.

Not only are you a racist, you're also full of BS.

Alexander555

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2503
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 185
  • Likes Given: 49
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3145 on: January 18, 2018, 08:35:35 AM »
And maybe the dreamers are not the real dreamers. Why do you think China don't wants that trash from the west anymore. Because most parts of these planet just start to produce large amounts of plastic trash. Very soon they will have a mountain of trash that looks like nothing copared to what you guys produced. Or do you think your the only one that can enjoy a nive crispy chocolate bar. You burried your own children, that's the kind of assholes you are.

Alexander555

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2503
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 185
  • Likes Given: 49
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3146 on: January 18, 2018, 09:58:39 AM »
A "filé au plastic" with a pinch of enriched uranium fresh from the sea would be nice for the moment. To make me feel happy.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 9470
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 1333
  • Likes Given: 617
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3147 on: January 18, 2018, 12:28:36 PM »
That was a nice back-and-forth to vent some steam, but back on-topic again, s'il vous plaît.
The enemy is within
Don't confuse me with him

E. Smith

Buddy

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3379
  • Go DUCKS!!
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 49
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3148 on: January 18, 2018, 03:13:17 PM »
I would expect to see some disappointing "earnings news" from the major "old line" auto makers over the next FEW YEARS.

1)  We may have "peaked" on a "cyclical basis" and thus....may be heading towards a "lull" as we head for the next "trough" in earnings.

2)  The old line major auto makers are having to sell BOTH their "old line" gasoline powered cars....while transitioning to hybrids and all electrics (and eventually....to all electrics PERIOD).  That is an expensive proposition.

https://finance.yahoo.com/m/df2ed2a4-9811-38bf-bfe0-185110447234/ford%3A-brace-yourself.html
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Tor Bejnar

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 4606
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 879
  • Likes Given: 826
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3149 on: January 18, 2018, 04:45:10 PM »
Here is part of an advertisement on the Fox News website: FCC Approves Wireless Electricity; Changes Everything

Quote
The biggest mass manufacturing craze in a century set to begin any day now for new…

“NanoCrystal Electricity”

It will magically power everything – lamps, TVs, alarm clocks, radios, coffee makers, washers, dryers, refrigerators, toaster ovens, blenders… you name it – without a plug!
...
In fact, soon you won’t even have to stop for gas

That’s because this new NanoCrystal Electricity is going to put an end to the combustion engine and send electric car production through the roof.

With this new electricity, your car will be able to magically power itself as you’re waiting at a red light… or pulling into a parking lot… or even as you drive down the freeway.

Elon Musk and the geniuses at Tesla were the visionaries who saw this coming.

But the mainstream auto makers are now waking up fast, realizing NanoCrystal Electricity technology is the future.

The 2018 Mercedes-Benz S550e already has the necessary receiver onboard – ready to roll.

Volkswagen is also planning to put NanoCrystal Electricity technology in their fleet of cars.

And Volvo just sent shockwaves around the world: It announced plans to dump its entire fleet of gas-guzzlers and replace them with electric cars or hybrids by 2019.

Make no mistake: Every carmaker in the world is frantically pursuing what I call NanoCrystal Electricity technology. 

Some experts predict this will be a standard feature for every electric vehicle by 2020 at the latest.

For good reason: With this groundbreaking new technology readily available, why would anyone want to buy an electric car that requires you to fiddle with a dangerous and dirty high-voltage plug, when you can glide over a charger with RF technology?

No more messing with foul-smelling gas pumps either.

Since analysts are saying that 35% of all vehicles on the road will be electric within the next two decades, and with populations increasing exponentially around the globe, we are truly witnessing a revolutionary movement
...
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things because "we cannot negotiate with the melting point of ice"