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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3450 on: March 07, 2018, 08:40:21 PM »
Elon Musk:  “First production cargo trip of the Tesla Semi heavy duty truck, carrying battery packs from the Gigafactory in the Nevada mountains to the car factory in California”
https://www.instagram.com/p/BgCJlKbFckb/
Image below.
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Archimid

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3451 on: March 07, 2018, 08:57:26 PM »
I love Tesla for the hope they give me, more than for their products. Elon and the amazing people at Tesla keep doing it. 2 years ago an electric Truck was imposible, today it is delivering batteries to a factory of electric cars that not too long ago were deemed imposible.

That they are human and sometimes fail only make me love them more.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3452 on: March 07, 2018, 09:08:32 PM »
I love Tesla for the hope they give me, more than for their products. Elon and the amazing people at Tesla keep doing it. 2 years ago an electric Truck was imposible, today it is delivering batteries to a factory of electric cars that not too long ago were deemed imposible.

That they are human and sometimes fail only make me love them more.

What most people would call impossible, Elon calls “aspirational“ — and then he goes and does it anyway. 8)
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3453 on: March 07, 2018, 09:13:17 PM »
Arizona highways: autonomous ICE trucks

Uber’s Self-Driving Trucks Hit the Highway, but Not Local Roads
Quote
More than a year after Uber’s self-driving trucks made their first commercial delivery — 2,000 cases of Budweiser beer on a 120-mile hop in Colorado — the company says it has taken its robot big rigs to the highways of Arizona.

Uber said on Tuesday that its self-driving trucks had been carrying cargo on highways in Arizona for commercial freight customers over the past few months. The trucks operate with a licensed truck driver at the wheel, ready to take over in the case of an emergency. But Uber said the eventual goal was to eliminate human drivers inside the cab.

In a video, Uber laid out its vision for the future of trucking — tapping autonomous systems to navigate long highway hauls and relying on human drivers to handle shorter drives, like the final few miles to a customer’s loading dock.
...
At the heart of Uber’s vision are transfer hubs where trucks can pick up and drop off trailers. At those locations, autonomous trucks would grab trailers for long-haul drives, while human drivers would grab ones earmarked for closer delivery — with Uber’s network meshing the supply and demand of both behind the scenes. ...
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/06/technology/uber-self-driving-trucks.html

2 min. Uber video, from the article:  Self-driving truck and truck driver connect with Uber Freight
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=FqwtibdHSZM
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3454 on: March 07, 2018, 10:33:14 PM »
There is a Tesla Model 3 at the Geneva Auto Show.  It just isn’t Tesla’s. :D  From today until March 18, you can see the car at the Palexpo Center, Geneva, Switzerland booth # 1120 (Hall – 1).

Tesla Model 3 unofficially debuts in Europe at the Geneva Auto Show
https://electrek.co/2018/03/07/tesla-model-3-unofficially-debuts-europe-geneva-auto-show/
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TerryM

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3455 on: March 07, 2018, 11:33:39 PM »
Arizona highways: autonomous ICE trucks

Uber’s Self-Driving Trucks Hit the Highway, but Not Local Roads
Quote
More than a year after Uber’s self-driving trucks made their first commercial delivery — 2,000 cases of Budweiser beer on a 120-mile hop in Colorado — the company says it has taken its robot big rigs to the highways of Arizona.

Uber said on Tuesday that its self-driving trucks had been carrying cargo on highways in Arizona for commercial freight customers over the past few months. The trucks operate with a licensed truck driver at the wheel, ready to take over in the case of an emergency. But Uber said the eventual goal was to eliminate human drivers inside the cab.

In a video, Uber laid out its vision for the future of trucking — tapping autonomous systems to navigate long highway hauls and relying on human drivers to handle shorter drives, like the final few miles to a customer’s loading dock.
...
At the heart of Uber’s vision are transfer hubs where trucks can pick up and drop off trailers. At those locations, autonomous trucks would grab trailers for long-haul drives, while human drivers would grab ones earmarked for closer delivery — with Uber’s network meshing the supply and demand of both behind the scenes. ...
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/06/technology/uber-self-driving-trucks.html

2 min. Uber video, from the article:  Self-driving truck and truck driver connect with Uber Freight
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=FqwtibdHSZM


Uber's vision seems to be to replace long distance rail freight with long distance semis. When Uber's rubber meets the road it has to compete with steel wheels running on iron tracks.


It takes more energy to roll a rubber tire on a concrete or asphalt road than it does to roll a steel wheel on iron, so assuming equally efficient propulsion systems, rail will be less energy expensive.


Why does anyone thing adding more trucks to our already overcrowded highways would be a good idea?
Terry


Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3456 on: March 08, 2018, 06:34:59 PM »
Terry,

When operated in a (3-truck) convoy mode, the cost of a Tesla Semi not only beats a diesel truck cost to operate, it beats rail.  Add the advantages of more flexible scheduling, and “door to door” transport, and the benefits should be clear. 

Autonomous trucking will, eventually, save the cost of paying the human driver.  With other efficiencies, it, too, will likely be cheaper and more efficient than rail.

“It’s s not just economic suicide to use one diesel truck,” Musk explained, “it’s economic suicide for rail. This beats rail.”
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3457 on: March 08, 2018, 06:37:39 PM »
Pull over, Uber. This self-driving truck is driving with no one on board
Quote
Two days after Uber announced self-driving truck operations in Arizona, which feature a backup driver as a precaution, Starsky Robotics said it has completed a seven-mile drive without a human in the vehicle.

In mid-February, Starsky conducted the test on a closed portion of Route 833 in Hendry County, Florida, with no traffic.

The 20,000-pound unmanned robotic truck drove 35 mph during the run.

Starsky is the first company to publicly test an empty cabin for autonomous trucks. Its aim is to make a delivery without a human present by year's end.
...
According to Hendry County commissioner Charles Chapman, Starsky's self-driving trucks could make it easier for his airport to receive food deliveries from Central and South America for local businesses. ...
http://money.cnn.com/2018/03/08/technology/starsky-self-driving-truck-florida/index.html
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numerobis

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3458 on: March 08, 2018, 10:28:08 PM »
Terry,

When operated in a (3-truck) convoy mode, the cost of a Tesla Semi not only beats a diesel truck cost to operate, it beats rail.  Add the advantages of more flexible scheduling, and “door to door” transport, and the benefits should be clear. 

Autonomous trucking will, eventually, save the cost of paying the human driver.  With other efficiencies, it, too, will likely be cheaper and more efficient than rail.

“It’s s not just economic suicide to use one diesel truck,” Musk explained, “it’s economic suicide for rail. This beats rail.”

I don't believe him there. Rail is fantastically efficient. The one thing is that, in North America at least, rail users pay for upkeep, whereas road cargo doesn't pay a fair rate for road repairs.

Hopefully it spurs cargo railroads to electrify though.

SteveMDFP

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3459 on: March 09, 2018, 01:17:14 AM »
. . .
I don't believe him there. Rail is fantastically efficient. The one thing is that, in North America at least, rail users pay for upkeep, whereas road cargo doesn't pay a fair rate for road repairs.

Hopefully it spurs cargo railroads to electrify though.

My first thought was, "yeah, right, thousands and thousands of miles of overhead wires are sure going to reduce freight rail costs."
But then I considered, rail is really energy efficient for heavy loads.  So a couple of freight cars worth of batteries might just be plausible.  For long-haul runs, they might be able to recharge those batteries on the fly with relatively short lengths of overhead wires, or 3rd rails, or even embedded charging coils in the rail bed.
So, yeah, maybe.  We need a Musk to develop this, though.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3460 on: March 09, 2018, 03:08:15 AM »
U.S.:  Union of Concerned Scientists

New Data Show Electric Vehicles Continue to Get Cleaner
Quote
New data from the US EPA on power plant greenhouse gas emissions are in, and electric vehicles (EV) in the US are even cleaner than they were before. The climate change emissions created by driving on electricity depend on where you live, but on average, an EV driving on electricity in the U.S. today is equivalent to a conventional gasoline car that gets 80 MPG, up from 73 MPG in our 2017 update.
...
An important difference between EVs and conventional cars is that existing EVs can get cleaner—and, over time, they are getting cleaner. It’s difficult to make burning gasoline cleaner, and electricity is trending cleaner over time as we shift away from coal and add more renewables. This means that EVs that were sold years ago can run much cleaner than when they were purchased. ...
https://blog.ucsusa.org/dave-reichmuth/new-data-show-electric-vehicles-continue-to-get-cleaner
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TerryM

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3461 on: March 10, 2018, 10:46:51 AM »
Terry,

When operated in a (3-truck) convoy mode, the cost of a Tesla Semi not only beats a diesel truck cost to operate, it beats rail.  Add the advantages of more flexible scheduling, and “door to door” transport, and the benefits should be clear. 

Autonomous trucking will, eventually, save the cost of paying the human driver.  With other efficiencies, it, too, will likely be cheaper and more efficient than rail.

“It’s s not just economic suicide to use one diesel truck,” Musk explained, “it’s economic suicide for rail. This beats rail.”


On a modern stack trailer lowboy car, only 4 wheels are on the rails carrying 2 to 4 containers, each one of which requires 18 rubber tires running on asphalt or concrete with a Tesla semi, as shown in his promotion literature.
At the worst it's 8 steel wheels on iron as opposed to 54 rubber wheels on asphalt for a triple convoy tesla.


It's pretty difficult to understand how the tesla convoy could compete. The paragraph I'd originally responded to was this:


At the heart of Uber’s vision are transfer hubs where trucks can pick up and drop off trailers. At those locations, autonomous trucks would grab trailers for long-haul drives, while human drivers would grab ones earmarked for closer delivery — with Uber’s network meshing the supply and demand of both behind the scenes. ...


Terry



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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3462 on: March 10, 2018, 03:53:25 PM »
We are excited to be able to announce that the Great British Government has graciously granted us seed funding for our "Vehicle to Grid Controller with Modular Communications" project, which has been in gestation for several years now.

We've been summoned to Westminster next week to dot all the Is and cross all the Ts. Expect a glossy press release in due course, but in the meantime here's a little "teaser":

https://twitter.com/V2gUK/status/972171510906572800

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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3463 on: March 10, 2018, 04:18:31 PM »
Terry,

When operated in a (3-truck) convoy mode, the cost of a Tesla Semi not only beats a diesel truck cost to operate, it beats rail.  Add the advantages of more flexible scheduling, and “door to door” transport, and the benefits should be clear. 

Autonomous trucking will, eventually, save the cost of paying the human driver.  With other efficiencies, it, too, will likely be cheaper and more efficient than rail.

“It’s s not just economic suicide to use one diesel truck,” Musk explained, “it’s economic suicide for rail. This beats rail.”


On a modern stack trailer lowboy car, only 4 wheels are on the rails carrying 2 to 4 containers, each one of which requires 18 rubber tires running on asphalt or concrete with a Tesla semi, as shown in his promotion literature.
At the worst it's 8 steel wheels on iron as opposed to 54 rubber wheels on asphalt for a triple convoy tesla.


It's pretty difficult to understand how the tesla convoy could compete. The paragraph I'd originally responded to was this:


At the heart of Uber’s vision are transfer hubs where trucks can pick up and drop off trailers. At those locations, autonomous trucks would grab trailers for long-haul drives, while human drivers would grab ones earmarked for closer delivery — with Uber’s network meshing the supply and demand of both behind the scenes. ...


Terry

At speed, wheel friction is a neglible force compared to atmospheric drag — and the Tesla semi truck is optimized to reduce that drag, particularly in convoy mode, in ways trains cannot.  (Physically streamlined on all surfaces; ability to vary following distance to achieve lowest drag between trucks; precise battery/energy management.)

Uber’s “transfer hubs” will allow them to make maximum use of autonomy on the highway (cheaper miles, easy to program) and keep humans behind the wheel for the last miles (more expensive miles, hardest to program). 
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gerontocrat

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3464 on: March 10, 2018, 05:24:52 PM »
At speed, wheel friction is a negligible force compared to atmospheric drag — and the Tesla semi truck is optimized to reduce that drag, particularly in convoy mode, in ways trains cannot. 

A train is a convoy - many coaches / trailers.
Everywhere except perhaps  in the USA things have moved on.

Image 1 Amtrak,
Image 2 - a Test-Bed in China.

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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3465 on: March 10, 2018, 06:31:04 PM »
At speed, wheel friction is a negligible force compared to atmospheric drag — and the Tesla semi truck is optimized to reduce that drag, particularly in convoy mode, in ways trains cannot. 

A train is a convoy - many coaches / trailers.
Everywhere except perhaps  in the USA things have moved on.

Image 1 Amtrak,
Image 2 - a Test-Bed in China.

That is... one slick-looking train model!
Too bad we don’t have the tracks that could take advantage of it.
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TerryM

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3466 on: March 10, 2018, 10:55:18 PM »
At speed, wheel friction is a negligible force compared to atmospheric drag — and the Tesla semi truck is optimized to reduce that drag, particularly in convoy mode, in ways trains cannot. 

A train is a convoy - many coaches / trailers.
Everywhere except perhaps  in the USA things have moved on.

Image 1 Amtrak,
Image 2 - a Test-Bed in China.


And trucks are sooo much slower than modern trains. A 20th century solution to a 21st century problem.
Terry


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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3467 on: March 10, 2018, 11:51:44 PM »

At speed, wheel friction is a neglible force compared to atmospheric drag — and the Tesla semi truck is optimized to reduce that drag, particularly in convoy mode, in ways trains cannot.  (Physically streamlined on all surfaces; ability to vary following distance to achieve lowest drag between trucks; precise battery/energy management.)

Do you have links for this?


IIRC Sleepy had a link that showed fore and aft atmospheric drag to be less than 8%, combined, and that was on a 19 car HSR set. Wouldn't slowing everything down to trucking speeds, then adding a hundred additional cars to make it a rather small modern train, almost eliminate fore/aft drag as a consideration?


The drag per axle in a loaded truck is considerable. Back when diesel fuel was so cheap that no one bothered about streamlining, truckers still went to the trouble of raising unneeded axles from the roadway. Rubber and asphalt is not efficient when being compared to steel and iron.


Modern freight trains in Canada are ~165 cars in length. If each of these held only 2 stacked boxes, this would equal 330 tesla semi's, or 110 tesla tri-convoys. Quite an additional load on our already crowded highways.


In the rest of the world, and soon to come to the Americas, electrified rail eliminates the need to drag heavy batteries along for the ride. If Tesla's motors are more efficient, rail will either purchase Tesla's motors from Tesla, or more likely buy them from whoever supplies Tesla.


If Tesla's electric semi performs anywhere near as advertised it will sweep diesel trucking from the roadways. Eliminating long haul rail is a entirely different matter.




Terry

numerobis

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3468 on: March 11, 2018, 06:37:45 AM »
Cargo trains aren’t great on air drag, but to make up for that they’re slow. And because they’re slow, there’s no reason to improve the aerodynamics. I can easily believe that a typical train at 60 mph is worse drag than a Tesla convoy at 60 mph — but a US cargo train has a speed limit of 50 mph and usually goes slower than that.

On wheel drag, steel wheels on steel rails are fantastically better than rubber tires on asphalt.

The Montreal metro sees good performance from rubber tires — but that’s because wheel drag is good in their use case, which is that they’re almost always either accelerating or braking because stations are close to each other. For long-haul cargo, wheel drag is bad.

oren

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3469 on: March 11, 2018, 07:38:04 AM »
I honestly don't think drag is the main consideration between trucks and trains. Trains go where tracks are laid down, and between such connected locations it'll probably be cheaper and better to use trains, assuming they are electrified. Laying down tracks to new locations is very expensive, and in such locations electric trucks and convoys are a great solution.

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3470 on: March 11, 2018, 10:35:42 AM »
At speed, wheel friction is a negligible force compared to atmospheric drag — and the Tesla semi truck is optimized to reduce that drag, particularly in convoy mode, in ways trains cannot. 

A train is a convoy - many coaches / trailers.
Everywhere except perhaps  in the USA things have moved on.

Image 1 Amtrak,
Image 2 - a Test-Bed in China.

That is... one slick-looking train model!
Too bad we don’t have the tracks that could take advantage of it.

The US doesn't seem to have their roads and bridges in shape either?
https://www.theguardian.com/global/2018/jan/30/us-crumbling-infrastructure-trump-state-of-union-address
https://www.artba.org/2018/01/29/54000-american-bridges-structurally-deficient-analysis-new-federal-data-shows/
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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3471 on: March 11, 2018, 11:03:04 AM »

At speed, wheel friction is a neglible force compared to atmospheric drag — and the Tesla semi truck is optimized to reduce that drag, particularly in convoy mode, in ways trains cannot.  (Physically streamlined on all surfaces; ability to vary following distance to achieve lowest drag between trucks; precise battery/energy management.)

Do you have links for this?


IIRC Sleepy had a link that showed fore and aft atmospheric drag to be less than 8%, combined, and that was on a 19 car HSR set. Wouldn't slowing everything down to trucking speeds, then adding a hundred additional cars to make it a rather small modern train, almost eliminate fore/aft drag as a consideration?

The percentages I posted are from an engineer and instructor at SJ.
https://www.sj.se/en/about/about-sj.html

Here are percentages from a Swedish train buff for the air resistance of a typical (rather long...) high-speed train with 14 cars:

4.5% Front
3.5% aft
45% bogie and wheels
8% power take-off
4% air intake
7.5% Bottom
27% Surface friction from sides and ceilings

That is also one of the main reasons for Rodolphe Nieth to design a maglev train in underground vacuum tunnels, back in 1974. And the end of that saga came in 2009.

Percentages does not differ much between HSR and LSR. Total air resistance does with the speed, of course.

I could send him an email and ask for sources if you wish?

There are very good reasons for why the japanese maglev bullet train looks like it does.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3472 on: March 11, 2018, 02:52:05 PM »
I honestly don't think drag is the main consideration between trucks and trains. Trains go where tracks are laid down, and between such connected locations it'll probably be cheaper and better to use trains, assuming they are electrified. Laying down tracks to new locations is very expensive, and in such locations electric trucks and convoys are a great solution.

That’s an important consideration.  Even putting aside short-haul trips, long-haul freight needs to get places where rail doesn’t go, and often can’t go.

But the original point was that the Tesla semi (in a convoy) is cheaper than rail.  Whether this is due to less drag (the semi is more aerodynamic than a Bugatti Chiron), cheaper energy (Tesla guarantee of $.07 a kWh), and efficiency (<2kWh/mile), with continually-improving Tesla battery management software...  the bottom line for transport is that the truck will be cheaper.
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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3473 on: March 11, 2018, 03:42:15 PM »
If the quote is that the truck beats rail because road use is subsidized, that’s not super exciting. Diesel already does that in many applications.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3474 on: March 11, 2018, 04:01:58 PM »
If the quote is that the truck beats rail because road use is subsidized, that’s not super exciting. Diesel already does that in many applications.

If you mean Musk’s quote, no, that’s not what he meant.  In the U.S., trucks pay taxes and fees for road use, while rail is subsidized.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3475 on: March 11, 2018, 04:04:19 PM »
U.K.:  Union urges Ford to make electric move
Quote
The Unite union has urged Ford to convert its UK engine plants to making electric cars and battery technology.

Currently Ford makes engines for the Ford Fiesta and Jaguar Land Rover vehicles at Bridgend in South Wales and diesel engines in Dagenham in Essex.  Both plants faces uncertainty, as Jaguar plans to build its own engines and demand for diesel cars has plunged.

Unite wants to secure the future of both plants by persuading Ford to switch them to electric vehicles.  "These sites must be repurposed for new electric models or battery technology," Unite said.

On Wednesday the union will present a document outlining a strategy for the whole UK automotive industry, which it says supports 800,000 jobs.  It will ask the government to help the shift to electric vehicles by supporting research and development, training and investment. ...
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-43363539
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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3476 on: March 11, 2018, 04:14:47 PM »
U.S.:
AAA: Spring gas prices could approach a 'tipping point' for drivers
- According to AAA, the average cost of a gallon of unleaded regular is about 25 cents more than this time last year.
- The national average price could reach as high as $2.70 per gallon this spring.
Quote
A new AAA survey asked consumers if there was a gas price point that would make them "change their driving habits or lifestyle to offset higher gas prices."

"We found $2.75 was the tipping point for about 20 percent of drivers," Sinclair said. "For 40 percent, it was $3 a gallon."

"And we're there, we're at that level in a lot of cities, a lot of metropolitan areas around the country," he said.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/11/aaa-expects-higher-gas-prices-this-spring.html
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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3477 on: March 11, 2018, 05:02:10 PM »
Freight transport in the EU is 3/4 by road.

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Freight_transport_statistics

Main statistical findings
Modal split

Total inland freight transport in the EU-28 was estimated to be just over 2 200 billion tonne-kilometres (tkm) in 2014; some three quarters of this freight total was transported over roads

In addition the EU has spent squillions on new track, continuous rail, new stations and electrification, and is going to spend loads more ( Germany perhaps still has 50 billion more to spend).   This is a sunk cost, and so we are only looking at marginal costs. Because electrification is more or less complete, as renewable energy capacity goes up, running costs should go down. In a crowded continent (Pop 500 million, land area 4.4 million km2), it makes sense to maximise the use of rail. (But people are wedded to roads).

In the USA (and Canada?) rail systems are going down the tubes. No-one is going to cough up the huge capital cost of a modern rail network. Musk is pushing at an open door.

So what's all the fuss?
« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 05:26:08 PM by gerontocrat »
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Buddy

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3478 on: March 11, 2018, 07:28:57 PM »
The Electrical Vehicle Revolution Keeps Expanding

https://robertscribbler.com/2018/03/10/the-electrical-vehicle-revolution-keeps-expanding/

The chart from Robert Scribblers article.  By 2020.....when there are significantly more models....sales are going to really start to surge.....not to mention lowering of cost, and increased battery efficiency.  The chart is through January of this year.

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Archimid

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3479 on: March 12, 2018, 02:17:47 AM »
Tesla Temporarily Suspended Model 3 Production in Late February

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-11/tesla-temporarily-suspended-model-3-production-in-late-february

Quote
Tesla Inc. temporarily suspended production of the Model 3 electric sedan at its lone auto plant for a week in late February, a planned breather that ultimately may help increase output of the closely watched vehicle.
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numerobis

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3480 on: March 12, 2018, 02:34:53 AM »
If the quote is that the truck beats rail because road use is subsidized, that’s not super exciting. Diesel already does that in many applications.

If you mean Musk’s quote, no, that’s not what he meant.  In the U.S., trucks pay taxes and fees for road use, while rail is subsidized.

I’m going to need some serious citations for that claim. I’ve never heard that trucks pay their fair share for road repairs. And what subsidies for rail exactly?

oren

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3481 on: March 12, 2018, 03:22:41 AM »
Bloomberg Tesla Model 3 Tracker
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-tesla-tracker/
Quote
We built our own model to estimate weekly output of the car that could make or break Elon Musk's master plan.

Archimid

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3482 on: March 12, 2018, 04:17:32 AM »
Tesla Model 3 Motor — Everything I’ve Been Able To Learn About It (Welcome To The Machine)

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/03/11/tesla-model-3-motor-in-depth/

Quote
Well hello. This is indeed a horse of a very different color. Few have heard of a Switched Reluctance Motor. What kind of animal is this? And, how can anything that powers a 3800 lb vehicle to 60 miles per hour in about 5 seconds be termed reluctant? Let’s answer both those questions along the way to discovering a few puzzle pieces.
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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3483 on: March 12, 2018, 09:15:33 AM »
Here's another V2G "Twitter teaser" for you:

https://twitter.com/V2gUK/status/973103720203476993
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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3484 on: March 12, 2018, 09:41:53 AM »
"Under 1,000 electric cars have been sold since the beginning of the year in the UK, down 33.7% on a year ago, industry figures have revealed."

A story in the Times this morning reports falling sales of pure electric cars in the UK in 2018, citing cost, worries about range and difficulties with the charging network.

I think this might be a little pessimistic as the "Other Electric" category that includes my range extender BMW i3 is showing substantial growth suggesting that early adopters are opting for the additional security they offer.

That said, my experience to date of the charging network here isn't good. I'm planning a trip to London next week and am making careful plans. Fast charging points inside the M25 are few and far between.

There's some way to go before pure electric cars become mainstream in the UK.

https://www.verdict.co.uk/fewer-1000-battery-powered-cars-sold-uk-far-year/

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3485 on: March 12, 2018, 10:07:13 AM »

There's some way to go before pure electric cars become mainstream in the UK.


There's also a long way to go before adequate EV charging infrastructure is rolled out across the UK. However there are some intriguing portents. See for example:

http://www.V2G.co.uk/2017/11/shell-joins-the-ionity-high-power-charging-network/

and:

http://www.V2G.co.uk/2018/01/bp-invests-in-ev-charging-company-freewire/

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silkman

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3486 on: March 12, 2018, 10:50:51 AM »
Quote

There's some way to go before pure electric cars become mainstream in the UK.


There's also a long way to go before adequate EV charging infrastructure is rolled out across the UK. However there are some intriguing portents. See for example:

http://www.V2G.co.uk/2017/11/shell-joins-the-ionity-high-power-charging-network/

and:

http://www.V2G.co.uk/2018/01/bp-invests-in-ev-charging-company-freewire/



I'm pretty sceptical about retail-based private enterprise leading the charge (pun not intended!). Big retailers, including supermarkets and shopping centres are currently going through the motions. Slow charging stations in retail environments don't really meet the needs of the longer distance traveller.

Maybe the big oil companies will be different and will be willing to change their business model to make 30-45 minute stops at petrol/gas stations a more pleasant experience than they offer today but that's  a big investment that will need to see a return and I think battery technology may yet outpace that investment cycle. In the UK a 400 mile range (coupled with V2G) would threaten that return.

Jim Hunt

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3487 on: March 12, 2018, 11:54:08 AM »
Maybe the big oil companies will be different?

For more on IONITY see:

http://www.V2G.co.uk/tag/ionity/

Quote
With a capacity of up to 350 kW per charging point, the network will use the European charging standard Combined Charging System to significantly reduce charging times compared to existing systems.
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silkman

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3488 on: March 12, 2018, 01:07:19 PM »
Maybe the big oil companies will be different?


Quote
With a capacity of up to 350 kW per charging point, the network will use the European charging standard Combined Charging System to significantly reduce charging times compared to existing systems.

Jim. Thanks. That's encouraging for a BMW user as I need CCS.

But there has to be a concern that we're currently headed down the VHS/Betamax path here with three incompatible rapid charging systems being developed - CHAdeMO, CCS and Tesla. Ecotricity is currently putting both CHAdeMO and CCS onto the UK motorway network but the numbers are low. It was frustrating recently to be at a services near Birmingham waiting for the only CCS point to become available when across the car park there was a bank of 12 Tesla charging points with not a Tesla in sight.

This really doesn't make too much sense.

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3489 on: March 12, 2018, 02:31:34 PM »
But there has to be a concern that we're currently headed down the VHS/Betamax path here with three incompatible rapid charging systems being developed - CHAdeMO, CCS and Tesla.

This really doesn't make too much sense.

Agreed. A topic of some debate in IEC 63110 committee meetings. As are patents!

http://www.V2G.co.uk/2018/01/are-ev-charging-station-standards-patentable/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3490 on: March 12, 2018, 07:26:06 PM »
If the quote is that the truck beats rail because road use is subsidized, that’s not super exciting. Diesel already does that in many applications.

If you mean Musk’s quote, no, that’s not what he meant.  In the U.S., trucks pay taxes and fees for road use, while rail is subsidized.

I’m going to need some serious citations for that claim. I’ve never heard that trucks pay their fair share for road repairs. And what subsidies for rail exactly?

Truckers may not pay their “fair share,” but they do pay!  ;)
State: https://cdllife.com/2014/taxes-truck-drivers-pay/
Federal: http://www.tax2290.com/hvut/truckers-tax.aspx

Train subsidies for freight are mostly at the state level (little federal subsidy). Example:
http://norfolk.legalexaminer.com/mass-transit-airline-cruise-ship-train-bus/are-government-subsidies-to-railroads-serving-the-public-interest/


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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3491 on: March 12, 2018, 07:46:23 PM »
Road wear goes as fourth power of axle load. Freight haulers pay far less than their fair share of road repair. And I say this as someone who runs a buncha trucks, hauls a lot of weight, and puts a huge beating on the roads.

sidd

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3492 on: March 12, 2018, 09:21:05 PM »
A deep dive into the new motor powering the Tesla Model 3 — and the Tesla Semi Truck.

”Tesla calls it a PMSRM, Permanent Magnet Switched Reluctance Motor. It’s a new type, and very hard to get right, but Tesla did it!”

Tesla Model 3 Motor — Everything I’ve Been Able To Learn About It (Welcome To The Machine)
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/03/11/tesla-model-3-motor-in-depth/


Edit: Sorry, Archimid; I missed your previous post with this link!  Great article.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2018, 01:42:50 PM by Sigmetnow »
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gerontocrat

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3493 on: March 12, 2018, 09:36:56 PM »
Road wear goes as fourth power of axle load. Freight haulers pay far less than their fair share of road repair. And I say this as someone who runs a buncha trucks, hauls a lot of weight, and puts a huge beating on the roads.

sidd

Link below to a report by the UK's Road Research Laboratory. And there is nothing Tusk can do about that basic science applied to axle weight and road pavement wear. I guess there is not a country in the world where truckers pay the full costs of road construction (much higher specification for roads that carry 40 tonners),  maintenance and repair.

http://road-transport-technology.org/Proceedings/3%20-%20ISHVWD/Vehicle%20wheel%20loads%20and%20road%20pavement%20wear%20-%20Addis%20.pdf

EXTRACT:-

THE FOURTH POWER LAW
The fourth power law was derived from
large-scale experiments carried out by the
American Association of State Highway Officials
(AASHO) between 1958 and 1961 (Highway Research
Board 1962). .....................

6. CONCLUSIONS

1. For most purposes, the fourth power law
relating structural wear in pavements and wheel
load is adequate
; the results of the recent FORCE
experiment indicate that departures may arise
when considering a wide range of pavement
strengths, or the nature and degree of the
deterioration.

2. Measurements in a pavement under traffic
indicate that the effects on pavement life of
axle configuration differ according to whether
fatigue or deformation criteria are considered.
In general the results show that the effects of
grouping are greater for triple axles than for
tandem axles.


3. Measurements of the effect of wide
single tyres
, compared with the dual-tyre
arrangement, show an increase of approximately
50% in the two principal strain measurements
generated in a relatively thin pavement. This
increases pavement wear, in the case of fatigue,
by a factor of up to 2.5
. Theoretical analysis of
the effects on thicker pavements indicates that
the factor will lie in the range 1.5 - 1.8 for
those pavement thicknesses commonly used for
carrying heavier traffic in the UK.

4. Although much is known about the effects
of different vehicle parameters on the magnitudes
of loads imposed on road pavements, the effects
of these varying loads at varying frequencies and
on changing longitudinal pavement profiles is
less well understood. Further work is necessary
on the prediction of the effects of interaction
between longitudinal pavement profile, the
vehicle, and the consequent pavement wear
resulting from the applied dynamic loading.
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numerobis

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3494 on: March 13, 2018, 01:57:19 AM »
If the quote is that the truck beats rail because road use is subsidized, that’s not super exciting. Diesel already does that in many applications.

If you mean Musk’s quote, no, that’s not what he meant.  In the U.S., trucks pay taxes and fees for road use, while rail is subsidized.

I’m going to need some serious citations for that claim. I’ve never heard that trucks pay their fair share for road repairs. And what subsidies for rail exactly?

Truckers may not pay their “fair share,” but they do pay!  ;)
State: https://cdllife.com/2014/taxes-truck-drivers-pay/
Federal: http://www.tax2290.com/hvut/truckers-tax.aspx

Train subsidies for freight are mostly at the state level (little federal subsidy). Example:
http://norfolk.legalexaminer.com/mass-transit-airline-cruise-ship-train-bus/are-government-subsidies-to-railroads-serving-the-public-interest/

So you find that trucks are not paying their fair share — is they’re subsidized. And rail sometimes gets a bit of money but that’s considered scandalous.

That was, pretty much, my point.

So the Tesla truck beating rail on cost is just not very impressive to me. If trains could run while only having to pay a small fraction the cost of railroad repair, they’d be cheap too.

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3495 on: March 13, 2018, 01:50:45 PM »
VW Secures $25 Billion Battery Supplies in Electric-Car Push

https://www.bloombergquint.com/business/2018/03/13/vw-secures-25-billion-battery-supplies-in-electric-car-surge

Quote
(Bloomberg) -- Volkswagen AG secured 20 billion euros ($25 billion) in battery supplies to underpin an aggressive push into electric cars in the coming years, putting pressure on Tesla Inc. as it struggles with production issues for the mainstream Model 3.

The world’s largest carmaker will equip 16 factories to produce electric vehicles by the end of 2022, compared with three currently, Volkswagen said Tuesday in Berlin. The German manufacturer’s plans to produce as many as 3 million electric cars a year by 2025 is backstopped by deals with suppliers including Samsung SDI Co., LG Chem Ltd. and Contemporary Amperex Technology Ltd. for batteries in Europe and China.

With the powerpack deliveries secured for its two biggest markets, a deal for North America will follow shortly, Volkswagen said. In total, the Wolfsburg-based automaker has said it plans to purchase about 50 billion euros in batteries as part of its electric-car push, which includes three new models in 2018 with dozens more following.

As of next year, the 12-brand group will roll out a new battery-powered model “virtually every month,” Chief Executive Officer Matthias Mueller said at the company’s annual press conference. “This is how we intend to offer the largest fleet of electric vehicles in the world.”
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Sigmetnow

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« Reply #3496 on: March 13, 2018, 02:22:57 PM »
...

So the Tesla truck beating rail on cost is just not very impressive to me. If trains could run while only having to pay a small fraction the cost of railroad repair, they’d be cheap too.

Rail is cheap — and gets lots of subsidies from states, but particularly heavily from federal government for passenger rail, which freight also benefits from.

That’s why new trucks, that can provide the “last mile” distribution that rail does not, yet are cheaper than rail to operate — are noteworthy. 

As more and more road transport switches away from fossil fuels, methods of funding road repair will require a switch away from gas/diesel taxes.  Some states have already imposed big fees to register EVs.  Increases in truck taxes and fees will occur, too.  But the government also has a role on enabling transport for the common good, so “subsidies” are here to stay.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #3497 on: March 13, 2018, 03:05:21 PM »
VW Secures $25 Billion Battery Supplies in Electric-Car Push
...

The only surprise here is that VW is doing exactly what it needs to be doing; what all the big car manufacturers need to be doing.  Bring it on!

The article makes a point of saying Tesla has only announced purchase obligations for $17.5 billion worth of Pansonic batteries... but Tesla only buys a fraction of its cells (mostly the older format type);  it makes most battery cells itself, at the Nevada Gigafactory.  And VW admits it will not be making its own.

Quote
“This is not one of our core competencies,” said Mueller, who has faced pressure from employee representatives to invest in battery-cell production. “Others can do it better than we can.”
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numerobis

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« Reply #3498 on: March 13, 2018, 06:31:16 PM »
I thought Panasonic was making those cells at the gigafactory. Tesla assembles them into packs and final products.

Sigmetnow

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« Reply #3499 on: March 13, 2018, 08:19:29 PM »
I thought Panasonic was making those cells at the gigafactory. Tesla assembles them into packs and final products.

Yes, Panasonic is jointly involved with Tesla in the gigafactory battery production.  But Tesla also buys old-format cells from Panasonic’s Japan facility.
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