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Shared Humanity

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4450 on: June 26, 2018, 02:10:07 AM »
There will be 400,000 PEV's sold in the U.S. in 2018.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/801263/us-plug-in-electric-vehicle-sales/

With 17 million vehicles sold in total, another 16.5 millions ICEV's will hit the road.

Next year, how many PEV's can we expect to manufacture and sell; 1 million, 2 million, 4 million? Whatever the number (likely 1 million), there will be a boatload of ICEV's (several boatloads actually) hitting the road in 2019 and the year after that and that and that....

This is not looking at the past. This is looking directly and soberly at a very clear future.

I think you need a new pair of rose colored glasses.

litesong

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4451 on: June 26, 2018, 02:18:55 AM »
Nations are beginning to legislate exits from gas powered vehicles.
Meanwhile, my EPA highway rated 32MPG car's last two tanks got 47.3 & 46+mpg..... over 6 days & many cool downs. My other car, badmouthed by leadfooters, as registering sub-30mpg tanks, turned in two tanks in a row of 41.9 & 41.9 mpg..... again over many days & cool downs AND obtained 45mpg during daytrips.
The immediate, quickest, most dramatic method to decrease fossil fuel pollution is....... that leadfooters become featherfooters...... no researching, studying, or buying different cars, no extra costs involved(leadfooters will SAVE great amounts of money), or letting go a favored vehicle. Matter of fact, 300+HP cars have gotten 30+MPG. 

oren

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4452 on: June 26, 2018, 02:30:34 AM »
There will be 400,000 PEV's sold in the U.S. in 2018.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/801263/us-plug-in-electric-vehicle-sales/

With 17 million vehicles sold in total, another 16.5 millions ICEV's will hit the road.

Next year, how many PEV's can we expect to manufacture and sell; 1 million, 2 million, 4 million? Whatever the number (likely 1 million), there will be a boatload of ICEV's (several boatloads actually) hitting the road in 2019 and the year after that and that and that....

This is not looking at the past. This is looking directly and soberly at a very clear future.

I think you need a new pair of rose colored glasses.
SH, I think you agree with sigmetnow that an EV revolution is starting to happen, and that it will not complete (even in the US) in the next few years, probably up to a decade in terms of new sales, and maybe two decades for near-complete fleet replacement. Some choose to see the positive side of this news, some choose to see the negative side. Both sides certainly exist. It's not a question of glasses.

litesong

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4453 on: June 26, 2018, 02:41:19 AM »
One out of five Americans say their next car will be an EV.
...of the 17 million cars to be purchased in 2019, 1 in 5 customers will want to purchase EV's. Please tell me where we are going to find 3.5 million EV's to sell them?
Ah, so everyone wanting an EV will buy them in latter 2018 & into 2019? Who you kiddin'?

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4454 on: June 26, 2018, 02:58:00 AM »
One out of five Americans say their next car will be an EV.  ...

Not sure where you got this since there is no link but lets assume this is the case. So, of the 17 million cars to be purchased in 2019, 1 in 5 customers will want to purchase EV's. Please tell me where we are going to find 3.5 million EV's to sell them?
...
If I had been polled, I'd be one of those determined to have my next car be an EV, as a couple of others on these threads have suggested.  But my 2002 Prius is only 16 years old  [did I write "17" recently? oops!] so my next vehicle may not be purchased for another 6 years (at which time this 'next vehicle' may be a 'shared' robotaxi).  I wouldn't be surprised if many of the "my next car will be an EV" crowd are the sort who drive their car 10 or 15 years as they oppose the 'planned obsolescence' mentality of our wider culture.  400,000 (or whatever) of them will get their new EV next year and some will have to wait another year to get their self-promised 'fix'.

I'm sure automobile companies will go where the demand is, as fast as they can go; Tesla's waiting list (with deposits and with no advertising!) probably has some in other automobile company management drooling (but not publicly).
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4455 on: June 26, 2018, 03:04:06 AM »
One out of five Americans say their next car will be an EV.  Tesla hasn‘t even begun advertising to the general public yet.  I’d say a good number of those expected ICE sales may not materialize.  We’re at an inflection point, so using the past as a guide is quite risky!

Not sure where you got this since there is no link but lets assume this is the case. So, of the 17 million cars to be purchased in 2019, 1 in 5 customers will want to purchase EV's. Please tell me where we are going to find 3.5 million EV's to sell them?

I am not using the past as a guide. I am simply saying that car manufacturers will simply not be able to provide customers with these vehicles even if they want to buy one.

Posted May 8.  Sorry you missed it:
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,438.msg153384.html#msg153384

I agree that the limiting factor will be supply, not demand!  They will not all be buying their next car in 2019, though.  :)

Here’s another link:  https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2018/05/08/electric-cars-aaa/586987002/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4456 on: June 26, 2018, 03:16:18 AM »
There will be 400,000 PEV's sold in the U.S. in 2018.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/801263/us-plug-in-electric-vehicle-sales/

With 17 million vehicles sold in total, another 16.5 millions ICEV's will hit the road.

Next year, how many PEV's can we expect to manufacture and sell; 1 million, 2 million, 4 million? Whatever the number (likely 1 million), there will be a boatload of ICEV's (several boatloads actually) hitting the road in 2019 and the year after that and that and that....

This is not looking at the past. This is looking directly and soberly at a very clear future.

I think you need a new pair of rose colored glasses.

No spectacles needed to understand you see the glass as half empty, whereas I see it as completely full — half with liquid, and half with air!  ;)
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4457 on: June 26, 2018, 03:26:55 AM »
Daimler is delaying their EV rollout another year in the fallout of the company's own dieselgate.
Quote
Any hopes that German-based auto manufacturer Daimler will roll out its latest line of electric cars this year are dashed. The company, which also makes Mercedes-Benz vehicles, announced it won't be until 2019 before it's able to make the EQC SUV line commercially available.

Assessing the economics of creating the line as well as modifying factories to build the model are to blame for the delay, even though a Daimler executive declared on Monday that things were going as planned to put the vehicle on the market this year.

The delay will put Daimler further behind the curve in keeping up with its competitors, namely Tesla, BMW, and Audi, which are leaps and bounds in its adjustment plans to meet the demand for electric cars, especially in China where the market for battery-operated vehicles is expected to be the hottest. Stockholders in the company are also nervous about the news, given that Daimler's stock on the NASDAQ market has dropped more than 11 percent in the past few months. ...
https://www.hotcars.com/daimler-electric-car-rollout-delay-2019/


A delay in production? How unheard of!  I am shocked!   /sarc
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4458 on: June 26, 2018, 05:35:41 AM »
I'm a 'my next car will be an EV'.  I've got a reservation for a Tesla 3 and the money set aside.  I expect to get my notice to design later this year.  But I doubt I'll buy.

My next car will probably be my last car I'll purchase.  I need it to be self-driving.  Tesla may be able to make their M3s self-driving but I'm not an early adopter.  I'll wait a year or so to see if the system works as well as I need it to work. 

I expect there are others like me.  People who intend to make their next car an EV but the EV they want isn't available yet.

The important thing about the '1 in 5' is that 20% of new car purchasers have already decided to buy an EV.  That's pretty good market acceptance for a radical technology shift with a high entry level price.

Neven

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4459 on: June 26, 2018, 06:33:48 AM »
I think you'll have to wait 3-5 years for that range. I believe Tesla Model S and X, the Chevy Bolt and some others offer half the range.
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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4460 on: June 26, 2018, 10:18:30 AM »
...and bikes

https://www.treehugger.com/bikes/netherlands-pay-people-get-out-their-cars-and-bikes.html

"But even in the Netherlands, where a quarter of the country bikes regularly, the government wants to get more people out of cars and on to bikes..."


"© TIMOTHY CLARY/AFP/Getty Images/ Bike parking in Amsterdam"

BenB

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4461 on: June 26, 2018, 11:24:14 AM »
I would like my next car to be diesel or petrol, but until I can get one that has instant torque at all speeds, that produces no fumes, that is as silent as an EV and that I can fill up overnight in my garage, I'm not going to get one. Obviously petrol and diesel cars might one day catch up, but for the moment it's a bit unrealistic to consider them serious competitors to EVs.  ;)

Neven

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4462 on: June 26, 2018, 12:13:13 PM »
Even twenty years ago (I lived in Amsterdam from 1974 to 2008) it was difficult to park your bike, and it often wasn't there when you got back. So, I walked most of the time, not having the patience to wait for trams or buses (but running after them whenever they passed).

My mother says it has become even worse.  Still, I have fond memories of all the bikes I've owned, destroyed with friends, bought from drug addicts.  :)
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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4463 on: June 26, 2018, 12:21:56 PM »
I think you'll have to wait 3-5 years for that range. I believe Tesla Model S and X, the Chevy Bolt and some others offer half the range.

"I want it all, I want it all, I want it all, and I want it now
I want it all, I want it all, I want it all, and I want it now"
Queen

But you can't.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4464 on: June 26, 2018, 01:07:55 PM »
I think you'll have to wait 3-5 years for that range. I believe Tesla Model S and X, the Chevy Bolt and some others offer half the range.

Tesla semi truck will have 500 mile — “probably 600 mile” (965km) — range.  Production starts next year. ;)  ;D
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4465 on: June 26, 2018, 01:19:13 PM »
Bob wrote: “My next car will probably be my last car I'll purchase.  I need it to be self-driving.  Tesla may be able to make their M3s self-driving but I'm not an early adopter.  I'll wait a year or so to see if the system works as well as I need it to work.”

Keep the faith.  Some self-driving features should start to appear this August. :)

https://electrek.co/2018/06/10/tesla-version-9-software-update-fully-self-driving-features-elon-musk/
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Adam Ash

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4466 on: June 26, 2018, 01:26:52 PM »
I think you'll have to wait 3-5 years for that range. I believe Tesla Model S and X, the Chevy Bolt and some others offer half the range.

Who drives 800 to 100 km in a single drive?  A 30-minute rest stop at a charging station occasionally will get you there, refreshed and awake!  Lots of folk are doing intercity in EVs with no problems. 

Buddy

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4467 on: June 26, 2018, 02:21:21 PM »
Matternet raises $16 million for autonomous urban drones


Yogi was right....."the future just isn't what it used to be."

Quote
Matternet has raised $16 million in a new round of funding for its autonomous drone delivery platform. Boeing HorizonX Ventures led the round, with participation from Swiss Post and Sony Innovation Fund. Matternet will utilize the funds to expand U.S. and global urban operations to further its mission of creating an on-demand urban transportation system.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/m/96814387-0f12-3a83-a7f8-28780d018e80/ss_matternet-raises-%2416-million.html
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 03:40:54 PM by Buddy »
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Neven

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4468 on: June 26, 2018, 03:58:12 PM »
What does one do in the middle of nowhere at night when they run out of battery power?

Read the book they were supposed to bring back to the library. ;)
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4469 on: June 26, 2018, 04:02:22 PM »
What does one do in the middle of nowhere at night when they run out of battery power?

Read the book they were supposed to bring back to the library. ;)

What does one do in the middle of nowhere at night when they run out of gas/petrol/diesel?

Answer: The same things:  First, they plan ahead, so that this does not happen.  Second, they call Triple-A. ;D

Edit:  AAA says they’ve recharged “thousands” of depleted EVs.  “Unsurprisingly, the number is dwarfed by the ~500,000 assistance requests AAA received last year from drivers who ran out of gas.“
https://electrek.co/2016/09/06/aaa-ev-emergency-charging-truck/

Quote
Greg Brannon, AAA director of automotive engineering and industry relations, told Car and Driver:

“It seems that folks who drive an electric vehicle are very aware of the range of that electric vehicle. Our feeling is that they keep a pretty close eye on it and manage their drive accordingly—much more so than a driver of a gasoline vehicle.”
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 04:21:27 PM by Sigmetnow »
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BenB

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4470 on: June 26, 2018, 04:49:38 PM »
Why would people who regularly drive (an ordinary car) 1000 km a day convert to an EV at the moment? Very few people actually do that. There's a long way to go before everyone who only drives 100 km a day converts, so why worry about extreme outliers? Most people in Europe drive 10-15 k in a year, so about 1000 km a month. In the US, it's a bit further, but in poorer countries it's probably less.

Obviously, someone who drives a lot each day, say 300-600 km, is the ideal candidate for switching to electric, because they have most to save on fuel costs. Relatively soon the same will be true for the 1000 km a day driver, but in the meantime, there are other things to worry about.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 04:54:43 PM by BenB »

solartim27

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4471 on: June 26, 2018, 05:13:10 PM »
Nissan Leaf 60kW would give you the range you want, and is a bit bigger than the Ioniq. Rumours are that it will be out later this year as a 2019 model year. It doesn't have a tow hitch, but the extra size might mean you don't need it.

The 40 kWh actually already delivers the range I'm looking for (250 km and up). I have no range anxiety, because my Opel Combo CNG also has a range of 300-350 km. Filling up is faster than EV, of course.

What I like about the Sion, is that it's minimalistic.

I would avoid the Nissan Leaf until the new thermally controlled battery packs are in.  Our 2011 model (24 kW battery), with just over 60 k miles only gets 40 miles (65 km) on a full charge now.  It just barely meets our needs, without needing to charge during the day.  I had been hoping to replace the battery in a year or two.  Apparently Nissan has decided they don't want people replacing their battery, raising the price from 7k to 8.5k USD.
 http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=25882&sid=d2ac56c95804fa606a6c6256db38f473

We were one month out of warranty for battery replacement, and were told to take a hike.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 05:39:19 PM by solartim27 »
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4472 on: June 26, 2018, 05:13:44 PM »
ASILurker,
FYI, you are now on my Ignore List. 

If anyone else wishes to do the same:

Go to your own profile by clicking “Profile” at the top of the main ASIF page
> in the drop-down menu that appears, choose “Summary”
> Just above the Summary section, click “Modify Profile”
> In the drop-down list, select “Buddies/Ignore List…”
> Click “Edit Ignore List”
> Under “Add To Ignore List”, click “Add Member”.  (As you start to type, a list of matching member names may appear, that you can click on if you like.)
> Click “Add”
> You can click on “Arctic Sea Ice: Forum” to return directly to the main ASIF page.

Their messages will be hidden, but you can see that they have posted, and you can click “Show me the post” to reveal a post, if you ever feel the need to see what all the fuss is about.  Works great.
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Neven

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4473 on: June 26, 2018, 05:46:08 PM »
I would avoid the Nissan Leaf until the new thermally controlled battery packs are in.  Our 2011 model (24 kW battery), with just over 60 k miles only gets 40 miles (65 km) on a full charge now.  It just barely meets our needs, without needing to charge during the day.  I had been hoping to replace the battery in a year or two.  Apparently Nissan has decided they don't want people replacing their battery, raising the price from 7k to 8.5k USD.
 http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=25882&sid=d2ac56c95804fa606a6c6256db38f473

We were one month out of warranty for battery replacement, and were told to take a hike.

Sorry to hear about your battery problems, but thanks for the tip. I vaguely remember having read something about Nissan not having the best battery set-up.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4474 on: June 26, 2018, 06:04:28 PM »
Sigmetnow, that's OK you've been in my ignore list for weeks already. You're a such an overly sensitive precious touchy soul with ZERO sense of humor or a broad well balanced perspective of life. Now you;re just being publicly insulting and creepy. So no loss to me if you don't read my comments.

Had to check to see your response.  It seems your Ignore setting isn’t working properly. ::)  Too bad.
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Shared Humanity

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4475 on: June 26, 2018, 06:16:53 PM »
ASILurker,
FYI, you are now on my Ignore List. 

Thin skin much?

Shared Humanity

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4476 on: June 26, 2018, 06:19:17 PM »
...that's OK you've been in my ignore list for weeks already. You're a such an overly sensitive precious touchy soul with ZERO sense of humor or a broad well balanced perspective of life.

Pot calling the kettle black?

I'm setting ya'll on ignore and talk to myself from now on.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4477 on: June 26, 2018, 07:03:54 PM »
Red charger icons indicate Tesla Superstations currently in operation.  Gray charger icons indicate Supercharger stations now being built or soon to be built.  Gray stations generally come online within 12 months.







In addition to more than 10,000 Supercharger bays at over 1,260 Supercharger stations Tesla has a large number of Destination chargers, mostly located at hotels.  These charge slower than Superchargers but can charge up to 500 miles in under ten hours.  That's a full battery charge while you sleep and great for sequential long distance drive days.

I haven't heard any recent numbers but Tesla had a goal of 15,000 Destination chargers by the end of last year.  And, interestingly, more are being installed in Europe than in NA.




Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4478 on: June 26, 2018, 07:04:24 PM »
ASILurker,
FYI, you are now on my Ignore List. 

Thin skin much?

It is not necessary to join every argument you are invited to;  nor to correct everyone who is wrong on the internet.
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Buddy

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4479 on: June 26, 2018, 07:11:47 PM »
Quote
Red charger icons indicate Tesla Superstations currently in operation.

Bob ..... WOW ...... I did NOT realize that Tesla had so many chargers in Europe.  And the difference between western Europe and eastern European countries is stark.

We are definitely in the early innings of a very interesting ball game....     
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4480 on: June 26, 2018, 07:31:43 PM »
Red charger icons indicate Tesla Superstations currently in operation.  Gray charger icons indicate Supercharger stations now being built or soon to be built.  Gray stations generally come online within 12 months.
...

In addition, for mere “fast-charging” ;) in the U.S., Teslas can use CHAdeMo chargers, just like LEAFs.  In countries where CCS is the defacto standard, Teslas are build to use them.  (European superchargers use a version of CCS2, I believe.  And China has their own standard.)

Plus, when “slow-charging” is your only option, Teslas can use regular wall outlets — 120 or 240V in the US; whatever, in Europe. ;)  Often found in public parking areas, parks, campgrounds, as well as homes and garages.  And lots of places not near gas stations. :) (You can tell your Tesla to limit the amps it draws.)

Many EV owners list their residence on the PlugShare app, offering the use of their home chargers or outlets with prior arrangement.

So even today, available charging looks more like this:
https://www.plugshare.com
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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4481 on: June 26, 2018, 07:32:54 PM »
There are independent companies like FastNed that are building fast charger networks.  FastNed started, IIRC, in the Netherlands and is building out from there into the rest of Europe.

Tesla is way out front in terms of installed chargers but as other car manufacturers release more longer range EVs we should see essentially all EVs capable of convenient all day drives.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4482 on: June 26, 2018, 07:36:01 PM »
Quote
Plus, when “slow-charging” is your only option, Teslas can use regular wall outlets — 120 or 240V in the US; whatever, in Europe. ;)  Often found in public parking areas, campgrounds, as well as homes and garages.

The first Tesla S to drive coast to coast in the US did a lot of its charging at campgrounds with RV spaces.  They could pay for a space and use a fairly high amp 220vac outlet to pile in some miles quickly. Or at least as quick as was possible at the time.


Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4483 on: June 26, 2018, 07:55:09 PM »
VW is adding... let’s say “lots” ;) of fast, and faster, chargers as part of its Dieselgate settlement.

In the U.S.:
Quote
Over a ten year period ending in 2027, Electrify America will invest $2 billion in Zero Emission Vehicle (ZEV) infrastructure and education programs in the United States. Of this $2 billion, $1.2 billion will be invested nationwide (in states other than California), while $800 million will be invested in California, the largest single ZEV market in the world. This investment represents the largest of its kind ever made, and it will provide long-overdue solutions to ZEV stakeholders. ...
https://www.electrifyamerica.com/

Another difference Tesla makes is that “Tesla is committed to ensuring that Supercharger will never be a profit center.“
https://www.tesla.com/support/supercharging

 In the early days, supercharging was free for all Teslas.  Now that the fleet has grown, Model 3 come with the equipment to supercharge, but must pay “ small fee” for charging.
“In North America, pricing is fixed within each state or province. Internationally, pricing is fixed within each country. All prices include taxes and fees.”
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magnamentis

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4484 on: June 26, 2018, 08:11:10 PM »
What does one do in the middle of nowhere at night when they run out of battery power?


same question can be asked for ICE powered vehicles and the globally existing places where this can happen are larger than not. (australia, africa, sibiria etc)

at least with an EV i can carry with me a marine wind turbine and a foldable solar panel to heat or cool a bit or make water with it through destilation while once getting stuck with an ICE vehicle there is no way to get it moving without third party assistance.

the part with the solar panel behind windows of a car is practicable and is available, during a few hours of walking up and down a mountain that produces significant charge.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4485 on: June 26, 2018, 08:25:50 PM »
EVs cannot only tell you when you are getting low on charge but can guide you to a charging station before you run out of power.  If you put in your destination the car's computer can determine your route and charge options along the way.

It took many years to build out fueling stations in order to drive ICEVs outside cities.  It's highly likely that it will take nearly that long to complete the rapid charger systems needed.  Look at how much a tiny startup (Tesla) has done in less than six years.

Here's Tesla's charging system in December 2012.



And now.



Plus Europe and Asia.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4486 on: June 26, 2018, 08:57:59 PM »
”Perhaps the most interesting fact from our survey is that, combining the two groups who made the longest trips, 61 percent of our respondents have driven more than 200 miles, which is beyond the range of many early electric cars and applicable to only a handful of new EVs on the market. (Not to mention longer than many gasoline-powered cars.)”

What's the longest trip you've taken in your electric car? Twitter poll results
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1117409_whats-the-longest-trip-youve-taken-in-your-electric-car-twitter-poll-results
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litesong

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4487 on: June 27, 2018, 07:23:19 AM »
Just read some estimates of maximum re-charging cycles for various levels of EV battery high charge/low charge for the New Nissan Leaf w/40kWhr battery pack, 2.0. The Nissan Leaf 2.0 is embroiled in "Rapid-gate" right now, due to its battery cooling, dependent only on air cooling & no thermal management liquid cooling. Possible Nissan reliance on air cooling, might be due to lower speed limits, shorter distances traveled, & lower temperatures in Japan.
 With careful charging up to only 70% & careful discharging to no less than 20% charge, one can expect as many as 6000 useful charges. However, allowing charging to 80%, will lead to only 3000(+?) cycles. With wild abuse & assault against EV batteries, constant charge to 100% & dis-charge to 0%, only 500 working cycles can be expected. Again, this is dependent on the Japanese conditions of lower speed limits, 60mph & lower(?), shorter distances traveled AND lower ambient temperatures. In addition, careful Leaf EV battery temperature management may include cooling periods of 10 minutes, after traveling to a charge station AND BEFORE beginning to charge, even in cool weather below 50 degF. Higher ambient temperatures will extend cooling periods BEFORE charging & during charging. It appears that to maintain the potential for long battery life, Nissan has imposed a strong decrease in battery charge kW, in the second & following charges, to help cool EV batteries during longer trips needing multiple charging sessions. Of course, this means drastic increases in battery charge time periods, really crippling any ability for "quick-charge & away we go" conduct. 
Now that Nissan Leaf is turned loose into the uncaring hands of Americans, we can expect lots of of complaints of "battery failures", as Americans try to drive the Leaf like an internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicle.   
Now EVs using thermal management liquid cooling ain't off the hook, either. Americans, who still will drive their EVs like ICE vehicles, must be reminded that even liquid battery cooling has its many limits & EVs cannot be driven like ICE vehicles. But such warnings are hard to hear, as Tesla drops the hammer on its strong accelerating Model 3 & 60+ kW-hr battery packs enter the market in the Chevy Bolt, Hyundai Kona, Kia Niro & many(?) others.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 07:29:15 AM by litesong »

litesong

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4488 on: June 27, 2018, 07:34:34 AM »
In the early days, supercharging was free for all Teslas.
Ah, the rich get free stuff. Sounds like the American-way. Tesla mus' be sum kinda "merican aw-tow-moe-beel".

Artful Dodger

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4489 on: June 27, 2018, 08:26:35 AM »
Obviously petrol and diesel cars might one day catch up, but for the moment it's a bit unrealistic to consider them serious competitors to EVs.  ;)

Hi Ben. "Carnot" gonna happen.  ;D
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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4490 on: June 27, 2018, 08:33:39 AM »
In the early days, supercharging was free for all Teslas.
Hi Sigmetnow,
Not quite free-for-all. Early 40 and 60 Kwh optioned Model S had optional supercharging, at the cost of $2.500 USD:

https://forums.tesla.com/en_CA/forum/forums/tesla-60-supercharging-option-2500-prepaying-90000-miles-electricity

Even now, the price premium you pay for a low end Model S is greater than what the Model 3 Long Range will cost you to charge for close to a million miles.  :P
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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4491 on: June 27, 2018, 10:09:26 AM »
Lodger, are you still waiting for the Artful Dodge EV;)
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4492 on: June 27, 2018, 12:51:50 PM »
In the early days, supercharging was free for all Teslas.
Hi Sigmetnow,
Not quite free-for-all. Early 40 and 60 Kwh optioned Model S had optional supercharging, at the cost of $2.500 USD:

https://forums.tesla.com/en_CA/forum/forums/tesla-60-supercharging-option-2500-prepaying-90000-miles-electricity

Even now, the price premium you pay for a low end Model S is greater than what the Model 3 Long Range will cost you to charge for close to a million miles.  :P
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Quite right!  Although I’ll note the 40-kwh model in particular never caught on.  Despite being the cheapest model, which should have made it very popular, its range was simply not enough for most folks.  Tesla learned that lesson early on.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 01:16:32 PM by Sigmetnow »
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4493 on: June 27, 2018, 01:12:44 PM »
It appears the Model 3 production ramp, and its financials, are going well — Tesla updated their website last night with shorter expected delivery times, and even some price reductions!

From the Electrek article:

Tesla updated the timeline for the standard battery to 6-9 months.

Tesla is shifting priority to the performance version with a 2 to 4-month delivery window after confirming the order.

The Long Range battery pack with rear-wheel drive motor, which has so far been the only vehicle in production, is now getting a 3 to 5-month delivery window.

Dual Motor [All Wheel Drive] went from a $5,000 option, like it was for the Model S, to a $4,000 option.

Model 3 Performance version also saw its based price fall to just $64,000 by making more features optional.

Tesla confirmed to Electrek that it will retroactively apply the new pricing to customers who have already placed their orders.

 https://electrek.co/2018/06/26/tesla-model-3-update-options-pricing-dual-motor/

And other goodies:
https://twitter.com/dmc_ryan/status/1011796674283372544
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4494 on: June 27, 2018, 01:13:34 PM »
And Elon seems to be over his “24/7 at the factory” mode, turning to Twitter to ask what people would like to see in the upcoming Tesla pickup truck!

From the article:
It’s going to be a big truck.
It’s going to have an option for 400 to 500 miles of range “maybe higher”
Dual Motor All-wheel-drive powertrain with dynamic suspension will be standard on the truck.
The truck will have a 240-volt connection for heavy-duty tools and even an air compressor to run air tools.

‘300,000 lbs of towing capacity’. (“That’s another tweet where you have to ask yourself ‘is he kidding?’, but he is most often not. Though I’d bet the actual rated capacity is going to be much lower and like the Model X, owners will be able to push the truck further.”)

It will be able to float. (“Musk referenced how the Model S is able to, but that’s up to a certain degree and it’s obviously not recommended.”)
The Tesla Truck will have lockers.
Musk said that ‘it will look like a truck’.

https://electrek.co/2018/06/27/tesla-pickup-truck-everything-we-know/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4495 on: June 27, 2018, 01:36:55 PM »
Southern California Edison [utility company] Wants to Spend $760 Million on EV Charging in California
California governor wants 5 million zero-emission cars by 2030
Quote
Edison International’s Southern California Edison utility is looking to spend another $760.1 million on expanding electric car-charging networks as the state works to get more emissions-free vehicles on the road.

Edison said Tuesday that it had filed a plan with state regulators to support the installation of 48,000 charging ports over four years. SoCalEd already won $343 million from regulators to help build out the networks necessary to charge medium- and heavy-duty electric vehicles. ...
https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2018-06-26/edison-wants-to-spend-760-million-on-ev-charging-in-california?__twitter_impression=true

Bloomberg thinks EVs will use about 9% of global power demand by 2050.  Image below.
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oren

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4496 on: June 27, 2018, 01:45:11 PM »
Bloomberg thinks EVs will use about 9% of global power demand by 2050.  Image below.
I wonder how Bloomberg arrive at primary (ex-EVs) demand falling after 2040, in the face of still-growing global population and supposedly rising affluence in developing countries.

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4497 on: June 27, 2018, 02:54:27 PM »
What does one do in the middle of nowhere at night when they run out of battery power?


same question can be asked for ICE powered vehicles and the globally existing places where this can happen are larger than not. (australia, africa, sibiria etc)


Yep. If there is fuel for an ICE, there must be electricity to power the pumps, unless they are hand pumping.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

Shared Humanity

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4498 on: June 27, 2018, 03:35:16 PM »
Model 3 Performance version also saw its based price fall to just $64,000 by making more features optional.

I realize this must not me the entry level car but a base price of $64,000 puts this car out of reach for the vast majority of Americans.

A dramatic shift towards decked out pick ups and SUV's are appropriately labeled luxury vehicles in this article with prices beginning at $60,000 and going up. The sales of these trucks, the fastest growing category, are eating into the sales of luxury sedans.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/15/automobiles/wheels/luxury-trucks-suv.html

This article is from 2014 but it indicates that U.S. sales of luxury vehicles (defined as vehicles costing more than $50,000) was set to hit 1,000,000 in 2014. There were 16.5 million vehicles sold in 2014, so this category of luxury vehicles captured 6.0% of the market.

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,438.4500.html#lastPost

"I'm not surprised so many of these higher priced models are selling right now," said John Krafcik, President of TrueCar. "Buying a car for $55,000 or $60,000 has become the new norm for those who are fairly well off."

What is the base price of the entry level Tesla which has sufficient range to attract the majority of buyers?
« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 03:56:14 PM by Shared Humanity »

oren

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #4499 on: June 27, 2018, 03:42:18 PM »
Model 3 Performance version also saw its based price fall to just $64,000 by making more features optional.

I realize this must not me the entry level car but a base price of $64,000 puts this car out of reach for the vast majority of Americans.

A dramatic shift towards decked out pick ups and SUV's are appropriately labeled luxury vehicles in this article with prices beginning at $60,000 and going up. The sales of these trucks, the fastest growing category, are eating into the sales of luxury sedans.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/15/automobiles/wheels/luxury-trucks-suv.html

What is the base price of the entry level Tesla which has sufficient range to attract the majority of buyers?
I also raised my eyebrows at the "just $64k", but the I noticed it's then "Model 3 Performance Version" which I guess is the upper end luxury version of the model.
The same model 3 but "normal version" (whatever the true name) is  the entry level Tesla, with its base price at $35k before subsidies/rebates. The range is 300 miles. But it's still not available this year, as higher-end versions are coming out first during the production ramp-up.