Support the Arctic Sea Ice Forum and Blog

Author Topic: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....  (Read 1471375 times)

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25753
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1153
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #300 on: March 19, 2015, 05:32:06 PM »
Tesla sales ban in New jersey overturned!  For those of you keeping track, it’s still banned from doing so in Virginia, Arizona, Texas and Michigan.

http://chargedevs.com/newswire/tesla-sales-resume-in-new-jersey-as-governor-signs-bill-allowing-direct-sales/

http://techcrunch.com/2015/03/18/tesla-can-now-resume-car-sales-in-new-jersey/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25753
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1153
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #301 on: March 19, 2015, 11:41:51 PM »
Interesting possibility.

Electric cars are so cool they may make it colder.  8)
Quote
Electric cars emit almost 20 per cent less heat than conventional cars, thus contributing less to the phenomenon of cities being warmer than the surrounding areas, known as the urban heat island effect.

If this lowers temperatures, use of air conditioning would also drop, and so would the energy used to power it, argues a team led by Canbing Li from Michigan State University in East Lansing.

Using summer 2012 in the Chinese capital of Beijing as an example, the team estimate that replacing conventional cars with electric ones could have reduced the heat by nearly 1 °C. That in turn would result in a reduction in air conditioning use in the city, leading to a drop of 10,686 tonnes in daily CO2 emissions.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn27195-electric-cars-are-so-cool-they-may-make-it-colder.html
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25753
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1153
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #302 on: March 20, 2015, 12:03:13 AM »
@EricHolthaus: A look into the motivations of @TyndallCentre climate scientists around flying

Paper:  http://tyndall.ac.uk/sites/default/files/twp161.pdf
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25753
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1153
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #303 on: March 20, 2015, 12:14:31 AM »
An editorial in Nature examines the problem of scientists flying... and driving... and eating meat...

Quote
The arguments the authors put forward are powerful, and there are good reasons to pursue their recommendations. In fact, some quarters have already come to similar conclusions and are taking appropriate action: the AGU’s leaders, for instance, have started to look for ways to hold parallel conferences and online dialogues that will allow more academics, often from developing countries, to engage in its meetings. There is real value in face-to-face interaction, and we must not forget that. But the Tyndall Centre is right to point out that senior researchers probably do not need to fly halfway around the globe simply to present a paper at a conference.

“Lots of seemingly small actions can have an effect.”
In some ways, the working paper opens the door to questions that are even harder to answer. Do scientists have a responsibility to stop eating meat, given what we know about the greenhouse-gas intensity of beef production and to a lesser extent that of pork and chicken? Should we expect them to park their cars and take the bus or train instead? The fact is that these are personal choices that academics, like everybody else, must grapple with.

Nor does the buck stop with individuals. Institutions, academic or otherwise, have a large influence on the daily lives that their employees lead. It might seem extreme for universities to force vegetarian fare on their students (although many institutions now have a meat-free day), but bosses could go a long way towards reducing traffic jams and carbon emissions by encouraging their employees to telecommute. And in the long run, does it make sense for an institution or company to purchase cheap real estate in the suburbs and then force its employees to bear the cost of commuting?
http://www.nature.com/news/a-clean-green-science-machine-1.17125
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25753
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1153
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #304 on: March 20, 2015, 12:33:02 AM »
It's Tesla vs. Google in the battle for the car of the future — and only 1 can win
http://news.yahoo.com/2-competing-ideas-car-future-143832289.html
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25753
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1153
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #305 on: March 20, 2015, 12:57:47 AM »
News today about Tesla self-driving upgrade.

Tesla Model S will get self-driving feature in 3 months
Drivers of the high-end electric car will get an over-the-air software update within the next three months that will add automatic-steering features.
http://www.cnet.com/news/tesla-model-s-will-get-self-driving-feature-in-3-months/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25753
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1153
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #306 on: March 25, 2015, 08:45:03 PM »
Obama: Federal fleet must be 50 percent plug-ins by 2025
Quote
President Obama signed an executive order Thursday directing the federal government to cut its greenhouse gas emissions by 40 percent from 2008 levels by 2025. As a part of this plan, plug-in vehicles are to make up 20 percent of government agencies’ fleets by 2020, and 50 percent by 2025. Agencies will also have to ensure that there is sufficient charging infrastructure.

“America once again is going to be leading by example,” said the President. “We’re proving that it is possible to grow our economy robustly while at the same time doing the right thing for our environment and tackling climate change in a serious way.”
http://chargedevs.com/newswire/obama-federal-fleet-must-be-50-percent-plug-ins-by-2025/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25753
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1153
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #307 on: March 26, 2015, 01:15:16 PM »
Half of Paris just took a mandatory day off of driving.
http://grist.org/cities/half-of-paris-just-took-a-mandatory-day-off-of-driving/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25753
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1153
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #308 on: March 27, 2015, 12:48:47 AM »
Quote
For the second year in a row, automakers in 2013 surpassed the ambitious fuel-efficiency and emission-reduction demands of federal regulators, the Environmental Protection Agency reported Thursday. The rules, first set in 2010, are meant to double the performance of American cars by the year 2025.
http://insideclimatenews.org/carbon-copy/26032015/automakers-surpass-federal-carbon-standard-again-how-exactly
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

wili

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3342
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 602
  • Likes Given: 409
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #309 on: March 27, 2015, 02:47:08 AM »
BUT...we're driving more miles, so demand is up: http://peakoil.com/consumption/record-traffic-is-boosting-u-s-fuel-demand
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25753
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1153
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #310 on: March 30, 2015, 07:20:22 PM »
China to issue licenses for EV manufacturing to new firms
Quote
Under current policy, only existing auto companies may develop electric vehicles, but in order to encourage innovation in new energy cars, the new rules will allow other firms, including auto component suppliers and internet companies, to apply for licenses.
http://chargedevs.com/newswire/china-to-issue-licenses-for-ev-manufacturing-to-new-firms/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Yuha

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 368
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 78
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #311 on: April 02, 2015, 07:35:25 PM »
B. Nykvist & M. Nilsson: Rapidly falling costs of battery packs for electric vehicles.
Nature Climate Change 5, 329–332 (2015).
http://www.nature.com/nclimate/journal/v5/n4/full/nclimate2564.html

Quote
This paper presents an original systematic review, analysing over 80 different estimates reported 2007–2014 to systematically trace the costs of Li-ion battery packs for BEV manufacturers. We show that industry-wide cost estimates declined by approximately 14% annually between 2007 and 2014, from above US$1,000 per kWh to around US$410 per kWh, and that the cost of battery packs used by market-leading BEV manufacturers are even lower, at US$300 per kWh, and has declined by 8% annually. Learning rate, the cost reduction following a cumulative doubling of production, is found to be between 6 and 9%, in line with earlier studies on vehicle battery technology. We reveal that the costs of Li-ion battery packs continue to decline and that the costs among market leaders are much lower than previously reported.


Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25753
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1153
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #312 on: April 04, 2015, 09:34:17 PM »
... and bicycles:
Quote
Paris is to experience something of a cycling revolution, with plans to double the number of cycling lanes in the city and triple the number of daily bike journeys.

The plans, laid out by the city hall this week, aim to provide 1,400 kilometres of safe cycling routes by 2020, up from the current 700 kilometres.
http://road.cc/content/news/147613-pariss-5-year-cycling-revolution-twice-cycle-lanes-and-three-times-cyclists-2020
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25753
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1153
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #313 on: April 09, 2015, 07:18:37 PM »
Joe Romm:  The Seven Reasons Hydrogen Fuel Cell Cars Are Stalled
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2015/04/08/3643876/tesla-toyota-hydrogen-fuel-cell-cars/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

jai mitchell

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2357
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 207
  • Likes Given: 60
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #314 on: April 09, 2015, 08:10:23 PM »
Joe Romm:  The Seven Reasons Hydrogen Fuel Cell Cars Are Stalled
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2015/04/08/3643876/tesla-toyota-hydrogen-fuel-cell-cars/

hydrogen as a transportation fuel has always been an oil-industry sponsored red herring.  It was pathetically obvious when the bush admin early on moved away from solar production and electric vehicle research and moved heavily into hydrogen fuel cell research.  The hydrogen inevitably comes from fossil fuels, either natural gas or as a waste stream from oil refinery.  Then the corrosion, leakage and storage issues make it completely untenable. 

If the money spent on this red herring the last 15 years was instead spent on electric vehicles, battery technology and solar panels we would be in a world where these bridge technologies would be half as expensive and twice as capable as the current norm.
Haiku of Futures Passed
My "burning embers"
are not tri-color bar graphs
+3C today

jbatteen

  • New ice
  • Posts: 83
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #315 on: April 09, 2015, 10:35:26 PM »
100% agreed jai, hydrogen is just not practical.  From storage to generation to transportation, there's simpler ways to transmit electrical energy at every step of the line.

solartim27

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 599
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 42
  • Likes Given: 75
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #316 on: April 10, 2015, 07:36:26 AM »
I bet it doesn't add up to $10 billion.
http://graphics.latimes.com/missile-defense/

Joe Romm:  The Seven Reasons Hydrogen Fuel Cell Cars Are Stalled
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2015/04/08/3643876/tesla-toyota-hydrogen-fuel-cell-cars/

If the money spent on this red herring the last 15 years was instead spent on electric vehicles, battery technology and solar panels we would be in a world where these bridge technologies would be half as expensive and twice as capable as the current norm.
FNORD

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25753
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1153
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #317 on: April 15, 2015, 07:55:29 PM »
Georgia reverses policy on EVs, eliminating tax credit and imposing yearly fee
http://chargedevs.com/newswire/georgia-reverses-policy-on-evs-eliminating-tax-credit-and-imposing-yearly-fee/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

JimD

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2272
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 6
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #318 on: April 15, 2015, 10:01:42 PM »
Another thing about ev's which many miss.

Many of the hybrids and ev's purchased in the US were not purchased because the new owners 'wanted' a hybrid or ev for environmental sakes or because they are cheaper to run. 

A very large number of them were purchased because of their being allowed to use HOV lanes when there was only one person in the car. Thus they were purchased for cutting commuting time and no other reason.

This was recently explained to me by relatives who live in Calif.

Now there are so many hybrids in CA that the rules are being changed so that only pure electric vehicles will have this very special benefit of using the HOV lanes. 

My relative who was telling me this story is now in the market for a pure electric.  But we can see where this story leads also.  What happens when there are enough pure ev's in the HOV lanes that they get clogged up again with solo drivers like happened with the hybrids. 

Another kind of subsidy many don't think about.  But does it result in less energy consumption or more.  Clog up the HOV lanes and slow them down and that results in more congestion there and higher fuel consumption.  It also reduces the advantages of using the HOV lanes and might well result in more commuters driving solo and thus increase congestion by putting more vehicles on the road - and raising fuel consumption that way also.

I go back to my point about cars.  Ev's are not the solution.  Getting rid of cars is the solution.
We do not err because truth is difficult to see. It is visible at a glance. We err because this is more comfortable. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

How is it conceivable that all our technological progress - our very civilization - is like the axe in the hand of the pathological criminal? Albert Einstein

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25753
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1153
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #319 on: April 16, 2015, 05:08:17 PM »
EVs regenerate energy when the brakes are applied, and use no engine power at all when stopped.  So, still saving energy, and emissions, even in "clogged" traffic.

New models of ICE/hybrid cars come with Start-Stop systems that increase MPG a bit, particularly while city driving.

http://www.hybridcars.com/stop-start-primer-not-all-systems-are-created-equal/


Edit: Besides, the main California highways have a ridiculous number of lanes.  When the number of EV's starts to overwhelm the one HOV lane, they can always assign a second one with that privilege.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 08:42:03 PM by Sigmetnow »
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25753
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1153
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #320 on: April 17, 2015, 09:08:07 PM »
India’s government has announced a goal of putting 6-7 million electric and hybrid vehicles on the road by 2020.  Subsidies will be offered to buyers of electric scooters, tuk-tuks, cars, and busses.
http://chargedevs.com/newswire/indian-government-launches-major-ev-incentive-program/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25753
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1153
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #321 on: April 20, 2015, 02:37:46 PM »
... also the ferries!

Amsterdam to electrify its entire bus fleet.
Quote
“This project means we are saying goodbye to symbolic behaviour and pilot projects,” Transport Alderman Abdeluheb Choho told the Dutch newspaper Volkskrant. “We have decided to just do it, not to experiment with five buses.”
http://chargedevs.com/newswire/amsterdam-to-electrify-its-entire-bus-fleet/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25753
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1153
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #322 on: April 24, 2015, 07:52:18 PM »
Motorsport goes electric.
Quote
Formula E’s mission of promoting electromobility fits in with many cities’ desire to cultivate a modern, sustainable image for their rejuvenated downtown districts. “We want to race in city centers,” says Agag. “We want to give the message that electric formula cars are right for the cities now. It’s difficult to change the perception of electric cars, but that’s what we want to do by showing them in this context.”
http://chargedevs.com/newswire/180-cities-ask-to-host-a-formula-e-race/

http://chargedevs.com/newswire/formula-e-electrifies-miami/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25753
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1153
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #323 on: April 26, 2015, 01:21:52 AM »
The "inconvenient" aspects of EVs (distance limits, charging delays) keep dwindling.

They Drove A Tesla From LA To New York In A Record 58 Hours 55 Minutes
http://jalopnik.com/they-drove-a-tesla-from-la-to-new-york-in-a-record-58-h-1699782187
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25753
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1153
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #324 on: May 11, 2015, 08:34:47 PM »
Quote
Edmunds.com, the “car buying platform” that tracks auto sales with obsessive detail, calculates the “True Cost to Own” or TCO for hundreds of models. “In many cases,” it writes, “TCO points buyers toward an unexpected conclusion: Sometimes the cars that are cheaper to buy are more expensive to own.”
...
I started by comparing these three electric cars to their fossil twins — essentially the same car but with a gas-only engine.

The Nissan Versa Note has a sticker price $14,180, less than half of the LEAF’s price of $29,010. Yet the Note’s five-year cost came to $34,352, while the LEAF’s was $24,843.
...
In 2014, CSE surveyed buyers of plug-in hybrid and battery electric vehicles in California. Overall, saving money was the No. 1 factor in their decision to buy an EV, cited as the “primary motivation” by 37 percent of those surveyed. This was especially true in the lower-income Central Valley.

Reducing environmental impacts was a strong second place statewide. The only group to rank environment over cost savings were battery electric vehicle drivers in the Northern Bay Area, like Marin County and the wine country of Napa and Sonoma.

The congested highways of the Bay Area and Los Angeles were the third factor for many drivers. California allows solo drivers in EVs to use carpool lanes during rush hour, saving precious time and aggravation.

Interestingly, motivation varied according to the model of car. “LEAF drivers claimed environment as the primary motivator,” CSE found. “Plug-in Prius owners indicate HOV lane access and Volt drivers said fuel savings.”
http://grist.org/business-technology/whats-the-cheapest-new-car-to-drive-hint-its-an-ev/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25753
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1153
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #325 on: May 15, 2015, 02:45:05 AM »
Lest you think the "self-driving" thing is only for cars:

Daimler’s self-driving Freightliner truck hits the road in the U.S.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-14/daimler-s-freightliner-tests-self-driving-truck-in-nevada
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25753
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1153
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #326 on: May 18, 2015, 02:46:17 PM »
A view of the (very near?) future, filled with driverless vehicles.  What will we do with all the unneeded parking spaces?

Autonomous cars will destroy millions of jobs and reshape the US economy by 2025
http://qz.com/403628/autonomous-cars-will-destroy-millions-of-jobs-and-reshape-the-economy-by-2025/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25753
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1153
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #327 on: May 19, 2015, 05:14:40 PM »
Tesla to adapt to Chinese charging standards – as soon as they exist
Quote
One wealthy businessman, frustrated that he couldn’t drive his Tesla Model S from Guangdong to Beijing, bought 20 Level 2 charging stations from Tesla and built his own charging network, which he says is also open to other Tesla owners.
http://chargedevs.com/newswire/tesla-to-adapt-to-chinese-charging-standards-as-soon-as-they-exist/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25753
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1153
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #328 on: May 22, 2015, 07:58:09 PM »
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 25753
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1153
  • Likes Given: 430
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #329 on: May 24, 2015, 07:24:38 PM »
I enjoyed this book about Elon Musk and his history with Paypal, Tesla, SpaceX and Solar City.
It's available for iBook or Kindle (free sample), and other formats via Amazon.

http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2015/05/elon_musk_biography_review_how_did_a_sci_fi_nut_with_a_hero_complex_becoming.html
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

jai mitchell

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2357
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 207
  • Likes Given: 60
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #330 on: May 24, 2015, 07:52:22 PM »
Barclays: Autonomous Shared Vehicle Platforms to Cut Single Family Car Ownership by 40%

(by 2040!)

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-19/driverless-cars-may-cut-u-s-auto-sales-by-40-barclays-says

Quote
As the future of automotive is focused on self-driving cars, Johnson noted there are four types of vehicles emerging:

    Traditional automobiles
    Family Autonomous vehicles
    Shared Autonomous Vehicles (SAVs)
    Pooled Shared Autonomous Vehicles (PSAVs)

In the future, each SAV could displace nine traditional vehicles, with PSAVs offering 2x the impact and fractional prices (i.e., as low as $0.08 per mile, versus the $3.00 to $3.50 cost per mile of an UberX).
Haiku of Futures Passed
My "burning embers"
are not tri-color bar graphs
+3C today

GeoffBeacon

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 394
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 18
  • Likes Given: 21
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #331 on: May 27, 2015, 02:15:30 AM »
PERSONAL ELECTRIC VEHICLES ARE GREENWASH

1. ELECTRIC VEHICLES HAVE ENORMOUS EMBODIED CARBON

I made earlier posts on this thread in 2013, e.g. (1,2,3). These questioned the embodied carbon in cars, especially Electric Vehicles.  One reference gave the embodied CO2e as 16.4 tonnes for a gasoline car, 15.6 for a hybrid and 27 tonnes for the all electric car.

If these figures were correct, then one car per household is an environmental disaster. (It still would be at the previous figures I had assumed - these were about a quarter as much.)

2. SEPARATE DEVELOPMENT FOR PEOPLE WITHOUT CARS.

Back in the 1970's, I started to campaign for separate neighbourhoods to be developed where car ownership is suppressed so that cars are used rarely. Then I campaigned because life is so much better for non-motorists when cars are drastically restricted. (Now, of couse, avoiding dangerous climate change is much more important.)

Neighbourhoods with few cars can have much better facilities than those with high car use. (4) (e.g. buses, pubs, shops, clean air). They offer a much better quality of life for the non-motorist.

One telling question is: "Would you like  to live in (no-car) Venice or (high-car) Los Angeles?". (5)


3. SEPARATE DEVELOPMENTS CAN PAVE THE WAY TO AVOIDING DANGEROUS

Very low car neighbourhoods would show the way to an (almost) car free world. Cutting the number of cars by an order of magnitude is necessary (but not, of course, sufficient) to save us from dangerous climate change and our descendants from a possible sixth mass extinction.

Many people don't like to live in motor-towns or motor-suburbs and would move to low car neighbourhoods - if they existed nearby. Many would then follow, once the neighbourhoods were established and their qualities shown.

An analogue is that most passengers stopped smoking on trains, when smoking was restricted to carriages reserved for smoking (6). Most smoking stopped when smokers were confronted with the choice between cleaner air of the non-smoking carriages and their own pollution.

Many motorists would give up their cars to live in a nearby Venice. See the video Carfree Venice.

4. PREPARING FOR A VERY HIGH POLLUTION PRICE

This approach may be a way of starting settlement patterns that would become prototypes for life after, the world gets to grips with climate reality and sets a very high price on pollution. In terms of a carbon tax I guess this should be in the order of £1000 per tonne CO2.


5. UNREALISTIC?

I know this argument sounds unrealistic but it is more realistic than the fantasy that we can avoid climate disaster with mass transport dependent on the vehicles we use for personal transport today – even if they are Electric Vehicles.

In short, mass personal transport with Electric Vehicles is unrealistic greenwash.

Let's talk of slower speeds, less travelling, more local goods and services and eschew the destructive, unhappy life styles we are being sold today. Lets talk green settlements (7).
Il faut cultiver notre cité-jardin
The Sustainable Plotlands Association

slow wing

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 823
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 155
  • Likes Given: 546
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #332 on: May 27, 2015, 02:22:40 AM »
To be fair, the embodied carbon from manufacturing the vehicles is probably largely from fossil fuel energy - for example in smelting aluminium. That contribution can presumably be zeroed out by using renewable energy.

ghoti

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 767
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 12
  • Likes Given: 15
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #333 on: May 27, 2015, 04:25:51 AM »
Aluminum is "smelted" using electricity almost always using hydro power.

slow wing

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 823
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 155
  • Likes Given: 546
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #334 on: May 27, 2015, 06:14:28 AM »
Aluminum is "smelted" using electricity almost always using hydro power.
I would tend to accept that. But do you think the reference cited by Geoff Beacon above takes that into account?

I'm guessing the 'intrinsic' embodied carbon in car manufacture is relatively small - that is, electric cars can be produced sustainably or nearly so if we put our minds to it.

Let's take it further and ask what it is in electric car manufacture that must release CO2 or other greenhouse gases, with no manufacturing alternative.


Challenging Geoff Beacon or anyone else to nail that down if they can. (Do it in ALL CAPS if that's your style.) Personally, I'm skeptical of these reports and their calculations.

GeoffBeacon

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 394
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 18
  • Likes Given: 21
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #335 on: May 27, 2015, 10:35:57 AM »
slow wing
Quote
/Challenging Geoff Beacon or anyone else to nail that down if they can.

I can't "nail it down". I have struggled for many years to get reliable carbon footprint values. See my Green Ration Book for one attempt. I have found barriers all the way.  Most sources have some interest (a mixture of commercial and academic) for obfuscating. OK, the arguments are complex and the results are by their nature fuzzy but these increase the scope for obfuscation and spin.

In many case I would characterise the spin as lies but all of us affluent smug b******s want to believe we can live similar lives to our present ones without screwing the climate, so are happy to believe that our best and peer reviewed information sources are free and truthful. MOST ARE NOT. It's often they are loathe to tell the whole truth. (See those other threads here.)

The more questions I have asked, the more cynical I get.   

CAPITALS! IT WILL BE IN GREEN INK NEXT TIME. Your delusions have driven me to the madness of poetry.

HIS NEW COMMANNDMENTS

Kill My world as little as you can
Don't drve a car,
Don't fly in planes
And leave that corned beef in the can

Kill My world as little as you're able
Don't build with bricks
Don't build with steel
And eat the horse that's in your stable.

Don't kill My world by rushing all the time
Gaze at the stars
Breathe in the air
Praise all creation that is Mine

P.S. I do hope the Pope's encyclical will be forceful but more credible.

P.P.S. I shouldn't drink before breakfast.
Il faut cultiver notre cité-jardin
The Sustainable Plotlands Association

anotheramethyst

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 141
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #336 on: May 27, 2015, 10:50:10 AM »
nice poem :)

i agree geoff, i think intrinsically cars don't HAVE to require any fossil fuels in their production or use.  however, they are still energy intensive and using that much of any energy just to move one person 40 miles every day is an unrealistic goal for an economy solely based on renewables.  we need to be realistic about how much output we can expect from renewables and we need to downsize all our energy use until supply can meet demand without fossil fuels.  it will be an extremely tough sell to get people to willingly give up cars, but if we work on making communities more walkable and more bike friendly, it will help a transition that will gradually become indisputably necessary.

slow wing

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 823
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 155
  • Likes Given: 546
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #337 on: May 27, 2015, 11:19:48 AM »
Heh heh! Very good, Geoff, I enjoyed the poem as well  ;D

Zythryn

  • New ice
  • Posts: 81
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 9
  • Likes Given: 47
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #338 on: May 27, 2015, 01:01:53 PM »
Geoff, I agree eliminating cars would be better.
However, how long do you think it will take for society to do so?

In the meantime, why not lessen the impact by making cars that emit less GHGs?

If someone wants to be responsible for emitting less GHGs, an electric car allows them personal control over the fuel source.  Which is not the case with gas cars, unless you go with biodiesel.

If running EVs on renewables, how much less GHGs annually vs a standard 25mpg gas car?

GeoffBeacon

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 394
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 18
  • Likes Given: 21
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #339 on: May 27, 2015, 02:33:41 PM »
Thanks for taking my tipsy rant so well!

We do need prototype car-free neighbourhoods(1) to show a better way of life.

Otherwise, smaller, lighter, much slower, electric cars, with shorter range could help.

Neighbouhoods should have local facilities near to homes so distances travelled are shorter.

Environment friendly materials? I know someone that makes bamboo bikes. Why not little cars? Know anyone that wants to commission a bamboo framed golf buggy to get this started?

Anyway thanks again.

(1) Almost car-free as in ice-free Arctic.
Il faut cultiver notre cité-jardin
The Sustainable Plotlands Association

Jim Hunt

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6268
  • Don't Vote NatC or PopCon, Save Lives!
    • View Profile
    • The Arctic sea ice Great White Con
  • Liked: 893
  • Likes Given: 87
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #340 on: May 27, 2015, 05:01:43 PM »
Kill My world as little as you can
Don't drive a car,

Are 100% electric vehicles charged from renewable sources OK?

http://www.v2g.co.uk/2015/05/renault-nissan-to-provide-200-electric-vehicles-for-un-cop21-paris-climate-conference/

What are the chances of my final paragraph coming to fruition?

Quote
At this point in time I cannot help but wonder what Amber Rudd and her new team at DECC will make of being ferried around Paris in 100% electric vehicles later this year? Maybe they’ll be so impressed that they will follow the lead of Paris and set up networks of more than 50 quick and standard charging stations powered by 100% renewable energy in strategic locations. The quick charging stations will be able to charge the EVs from 0 to 80% capacity in about 30 minutes.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2015, 05:21:58 PM by Jim Hunt »
"The most revolutionary thing one can do always is to proclaim loudly what is happening" - Rosa Luxemburg

Yuha

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 368
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 78
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #341 on: May 27, 2015, 05:09:23 PM »
We do need prototype car-free neighbourhoods(1) to show a better way of life.

How about car-free cities?

http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/apr/28/end-of-the-car-age-how-cities-outgrew-the-automobile

Quote
Generation Y, the so-called millennials now in their 20s and early 30s who have come of age in the digital era, seem less wedded to possessions than their baby boomer predecessors. Surveys show that the one object that is prized is the smartphone, and the future of transport is likely to be based not on individually owned cars but on “mobility as a service” – a phrase supposedly coined by another Finn, Sampo Hietanen, chief executive of Intelligent Transport Systems (ITS) Finland. Consumers will, so the theory goes, use their smartphones to check ultra-detailed travel news, locate car-club cars or bikes, check for parking spaces, call up Uber drivers, and arrange shared rides. Who needs a personally owned car?

deep octopus

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 559
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 6
  • Likes Given: 17
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #342 on: May 27, 2015, 06:23:03 PM »
The 12-month vehicle miles traveled (VMT) moving average in the United States increased to another record in March. A total of 3.064 trillion miles (or nearly 5 trillion km) were traveled from April 2014 to March 2015, or about 9,600 miles per United States resident.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=1cyI

As someone who does not own a car, I advocate for a far stronger push in American cities to adopt walkable cities with high connectivity to mass transit, improvements to regional passenger rail, and provide a far more extensive network of cycle tracks and bike facilities. However, it is clear from the following data that there is a monumental amount of work to be done here. And further, it is clear from Congress' direction that the chances of improved funding, focus, or will to improve non-automotive travel in the near term are slim.

http://flowingdata.com/2015/01/20/how-americans-get-to-work/

This interactive tool by Flowingdata lays bare the ghastly commuter patterns of Americans. It is no surprise that in the vast majority of counties, the vast majority of people drive alone. Granted many counties are in rural areas with far less access to public transportation or walkable land use designs, but even in more urban counties (such as Chicago in Cook County, IL; Los Angeles County, CA; Seattle in King County, WA; San Francisco, CA; Boston in Suffolk County, MA; and many other counties within urban regions) the plurality to majority of commuters drive alone. Only Washington, DC; New York; and Hudson County, NJ (all of which have excellent access to public transportation) have a plurality to majority of people who take public transportation. Some rural areas in Alaska and Colorado show walking majorites.

GeoffBeacon

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 394
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 18
  • Likes Given: 21
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #343 on: May 27, 2015, 11:48:32 PM »
Jim & Yuha

HELP ME TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS

Here are some background ideas

REMAINING CARBON BUDGET

Carbon brief reports the remaining carbon budget to give a 66% chance of keeping global warming below 1.5˚C is 243 billion tonnes.  The remaining carbon budget to keep below 2˚C is 843 billion tonnes.

CARBON BUDGET PER PERSON

A few minutes ago world population was estimated at 7,317,801,293 by Worldometers. That means remaining the carbon budget per person is 33 tonnes CO2e for a 1.5˚C rise or 115 tonnes for a 2˚C rise.

MISSING FEEDBACKS MEAN LOWER BUDGETS

However, we know the IPCC CMIP5 models have missing feedbacks (1) so the IPCC carbon budgets are too generous. In addition, world population is rising. Personally, I would like to see us aim at a lower temperature than 1.5˚C and better odds than 66% So I would go for rather less than 33 tonnes CO2e.

EMBODIED CARBON IN ELECTRIC VEHICLES

I would not even put the budget as high as the 27 tonnes of CO2e given for one Electric Vehicle's manufacturing emissions. (Table 9 of A Roadmap to Climate-Friendly Cars: 2013 from Climate Central  (3).)

EMBODIED CARBON IN CITIES

As for car-free cities, I have always like the idea and have attended a Car Free Network's conference a few years ago. If I remember correctly, they sent me the link to the video about car-free Venice.(4). They can be contacted though "Carfree Network"<carfree_network@googlegroups.com>.

However, beware of the argument we-must-all-live-in-cities. I estimate, using current construction methodology, creating the space for an extra person in a conventional city creates of the order of 100 tonnes of CO2e.(5).

WHAT SHOULD THE PERSONAL REMAINING CARBON BUDGET BE?

The first question I would like some guidance on is “What is your remaining carbon budget?” - and also “What should mine be?”. Then we can get down to deciding how to spend it.

Perhaps we should just cheat. Nearly everybody else is.

Best wishes

Geoff
Il faut cultiver notre cité-jardin
The Sustainable Plotlands Association

crandles

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3379
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 239
  • Likes Given: 81
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #344 on: May 28, 2015, 12:52:56 AM »
One reference gave the embodied CO2e as 16.4 tonnes for a gasoline car, 15.6 for a hybrid and 27 tonnes for the all electric car.

Why is the embodied CO2e for a hybrid so low - lower than gasoline and lower than all electric when it needs both electric and gasoline engine?

GeoffBeacon

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 394
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 18
  • Likes Given: 21
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #345 on: May 28, 2015, 01:13:25 AM »
Crandles
Quote
Why is the embodied CO2e for a hybrid so low - lower than gasoline and lower than all electric when it needs both electric and gasoline engine?

Look at their Table 9. The hybrid has smaller batteries.
Il faut cultiver notre cité-jardin
The Sustainable Plotlands Association

crandles

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3379
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 239
  • Likes Given: 81
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #346 on: May 28, 2015, 03:04:50 AM »
Batteries much smaller 1.2 vs 11.5 for electric

those aren't tonnes but 1000 lbs weight. There are 2.2 lbs to the kg so you need to divide the figures you gave by 2.2 to correctly state tons of CO2e.

Comparing hybrid to gas car
Savings of 1000lbs of CO2e for base vehicle (lighter for hybrid) and about 1000lbs CO2e less for 'Other power train' more than compensate for extra 1000lbs CO2e for hybrid's small battery. The engine difference is negligible: 1486 lbs CO2e for 189hp gas engine versus 1519 lbs CO2e for 80hp electric and 98hp gas combined engine. 
 



ghoti

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 767
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 12
  • Likes Given: 15
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #347 on: May 28, 2015, 05:48:34 AM »
The CO2e estimates for batteries have never been credible. That said what will the claim be when Tesla makes all their batteries in a factory completely run on wind and solar power?

Jim Hunt

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6268
  • Don't Vote NatC or PopCon, Save Lives!
    • View Profile
    • The Arctic sea ice Great White Con
  • Liked: 893
  • Likes Given: 87
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #348 on: May 28, 2015, 08:13:18 AM »
Geoff - Your document implies that if you're going to build lots of electric vehicles it would be a really good idea to use "low carbon" electricity to do so. However for some strange reason whilst Climate Central does mention places like Vermont it fails to mention France, at present surely the best place on the planet to build an EV production line?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_France
"The most revolutionary thing one can do always is to proclaim loudly what is happening" - Rosa Luxemburg

jai mitchell

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2357
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 207
  • Likes Given: 60
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #349 on: May 28, 2015, 09:28:33 PM »
Geoff - Your document implies that if you're going to build lots of electric vehicles it would be a really good idea to use "low carbon" electricity to do so. However for some strange reason whilst Climate Central does mention places like Vermont it fails to mention France, at present surely the best place on the planet to build an EV production line?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_France

Especially considering that they are being made out of aluminum!  Very electricity intensive production.
Haiku of Futures Passed
My "burning embers"
are not tri-color bar graphs
+3C today