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budmantis

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #550 on: December 22, 2016, 07:47:19 PM »
Well I see the discussions in this topic have wandered far off into the weeds in the last couple of weeks. 


I could be wrong, but I don't think the discussions have been off-topic at all. This thread's focus is rather broad by definition. Anyone else think the discussion has been off topic?

I have two linked articles, the first is about Donald Trump's assertion that the U.S. must increase it's nuclear weapons stockpile. The second is about Trump calling on Obama to veto a U.N. resolution on Israeli settlements.

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/un-israeli-settlements-trump-232913

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38410027

pileus

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #551 on: December 23, 2016, 02:55:13 AM »
Trump wants to proliferate US nuclear weapon stockpiles

The Department of Energy oversees US nuclear weapons programs

Trump has nominated Rick Perry to be Secretary of Energy

Rick Perry wants to eliminate the Department of Energy.  He is a know nothing WRT to nuclear issues.

How is this for coherent policy and leadership on the critical existential issue of our era?

And none of this bodes well for steerage of any empire, anywhere

budmantis

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #552 on: December 23, 2016, 06:28:28 AM »
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-38412079

"Egypt delays UN resolution on Israel as Trump raises concerns."

Ref. my reply #550, regarding this resolution. According to this article, the U.S. was considering abstaining, while other countries on the security council are reserving the right to move ahead with the vote.

JimD

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #553 on: December 23, 2016, 03:04:45 PM »
"Steerage into a kleptocracy working in partnership with Russia?"

Hmm...I don't know.  Maybe.  It would fit a certain model of how to run the world would it not?

Tom has a nice rant which covers a string of plausible - though mostly not likely I expect as what actually happens will likely be even more troubling, and much more significant, in many ways - events which might result from Trump's presidency.

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2016/12/tom-engelhardt-the-future-according-to-trump.html

One thing which makes Trump hard to predict (as some many of his opponents have learned to their dismay) is that he seems to approach everything as a negotiation.  In that he stakes out a starting point, which he has no intention of being the final position, that is alarming and extreme to his opposite side.  His starting point often seems to be picked to actually hide his real objective.  He has a knack for making this original position appear somehow plausible in other peoples minds. They then overreact emotionally and fall into a psychological trap which affects their thinking and moves what would be their base position towards his.  Thus in the end he ends up with a 'better deal' than he would have otherwise.  How this ability plays out dealing with the various powers running the Empire will eventually tell the tale about how much real effect he has which is different than the vastly greater power which has fallen into the hands of the Republican Party due to the failure of the Clinton campaign.  If they work well together they are going to change the face of America.  If not?  Well who knows.

How Trump effects national security interests will fall to another, as yet to be clear, methodology and pattern - remember his original positions are always extreme.  He has to find his footing with the National Security establishment and our 'allies' as well as our competitors - he does not seem to think of them as enemies.  IF he is really business and cooperatively oriented then he 'might' actually defuse some situations which are not to our advantage - thinking Russian relations here.  In other cases he might ratchet up the security situation - thinking China here.  Will these be for business reasons or strategic?  Both? Friending Russia and defriending China a bit actually plays into a well used Cold War strategy - only sort of in reverse.  It is really interesting, is it not, that both Putin and Trump announce that they feel the need to put more efforts into strategic weapons at almost exactly the same time?  It must have warmed the hearts of their respective defense industries just in time for Christmas.  Coincidence? I note that Henry Kissinger seems to have the new administrations ear - that just might be cause for concern in some circles.  While many might think that everything Trump is saying bodes poorly for the Empire and its arc of existence I would be a little cautious about that.  We don't really know where he and his team are heading or their strategy but we do know for certain that they are not intending in any way to make America weaker - at least on their terms. 

All we can say at this point is it is going to be very interesting.  I am pretty certain that we will not like the results at all - but then we would not have liked the results of Clinton at all either.  BAU choices - and that is all we had - are never going to end up in a place we want to be in.  The climate  was screwed either way we went and there was no inclination anywhere to quickly evolve towards a sustainable civilizational model.  There is no need for any new anguish as what we had already is more than sufficient to take reality into account.
We do not err because truth is difficult to see. It is visible at a glance. We err because this is more comfortable. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

How is it conceivable that all our technological progress - our very civilization - is like the axe in the hand of the pathological criminal? Albert Einstein

budmantis

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #554 on: December 25, 2016, 07:35:48 PM »
P.M. Netanyahu has summoned ambassadors over the U.N. Security Council vote condemning Israeli settlements. He accuses the U.S. of orchestrating the vote.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/israel-summons-foreign-ambassadors-to-jerusalem-over-anti-settlement-un-vote_us_585fe22fe4b0d9a5945897f6

AbruptSLR

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #555 on: December 27, 2016, 12:34:57 AM »
The linked article is entitled: "If Trump Wants a Trade War China Plans to Hit Him Where it Hurts".

http://www.onlinemunity.alternet.org/labor/if-trump-wants-trade-war-china-plans-hit-him-where-it-hurts

Extract: "The president-elect's bluster isn't intimidating officials in Beijing."

“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

AbruptSLR

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #556 on: January 03, 2017, 05:29:14 PM »
The linked article is entitled: "Donald Trump’s “carbon bubble” economy is bound to pop — the only question is how bad it will be".  It looks like Trump is preparing to rob Peter in order to pay Paul; which never ends well.

http://www.salon.com/2017/01/02/donald-trumps-carbon-bubble-economy-is-bound-to-pop-the-only-question-is-how-bad-it-will-be/


Extract: "Trump's economic policies are built on many flawed assumptions, especially a fossil-fuel boom that won't end well."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

budmantis

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #557 on: January 04, 2017, 10:11:42 PM »

AbruptSLR

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #558 on: January 06, 2017, 05:46:49 PM »
The linked article is entitled: "Trump to cede millions of high-wage jobs to China".  We will soon see whether Team (Fossil Fuel) Trump or the Chinese Mandarins have better insights on the future.

https://thinkprogress.org/trump-to-abandon-millions-of-high-wage-jobs-to-china-3554a04796b1#.ww4rdgaqa


Extract: "Beijing will create 13 million jobs by 2020, investing $360 billion in clean energy, while Trump vows to abandon the sector."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

AbruptSLR

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #559 on: January 09, 2017, 02:05:26 AM »
The linked Joe Romm article is entitled: "Did Putin help elect Trump to restore $500 billion Exxon oil deal killed by sanctions".  The writing is on the wall.

https://thinkprogress.org/putin-helped-trump-exxon-oil-deal-sanctions-6f169c4a4cd0#.youhglk0d

Extract: " Follow the money: Will Trump repay Putin by ending Russian sanctions and killing the Paris climate deal?"
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

DrTskoul

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #560 on: January 09, 2017, 02:36:57 AM »
The linked Joe Romm article is entitled: "Did Putin help elect Trump to restore $500 billion Exxon oil deal killed by sanctions".  The writing is on the wall.

https://thinkprogress.org/putin-helped-trump-exxon-oil-deal-sanctions-6f169c4a4cd0#.youhglk0d

Extract: " Follow the money: Will Trump repay Putin by ending Russian sanctions and killing the Paris climate deal?"

If you are talking about the Kara sea deal, that would be dead in this environment regardless of sanctions. Development up there is too epensive.

Also what would preferential treatment achieve for a company that produces only a small low digits fraction of the global oil supply?

JimD

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #561 on: January 09, 2017, 02:28:02 PM »
Take a breath guys.  There is a lot of lost focus going around.  Here is something with a bit more substance and a lot closer to the topic.

From Cory Robin's blog

"Trump and the Intelligence Agencies: On the Slow Collapse of Imperial Republics

I want to step back—way back—from yesterday’s release of a declassified intelligence report on Russian interference in the election in order to point out the larger political significance of this moment.

Regardless of the truth value of the report, the nation’s intelligence agencies (the report is based on assessments by the NSA, the CIA, and the FBI) are strongly suggesting that the person who is about to walk into the White House got there with the help of a foreign power. The significance of this move by the nation’s security establishment against an incoming president, as I’ve been suggesting for some time, has not been quite appreciated. That the nation’s security agencies could go public with this kind of accusation, or allow their accusation to go public, is unprecedented. The United States used to do this kind of thing, covertly, to other countries: that is the prerogative of an imperial power. Now it claims, overtly, that this kind of thing was done to it. It’s extraordinary, when you think about it: not simply that it happened (if it did) but that an imperial power would admit that it happened. That’s the real shocker.

But we need to read the story against a larger backdrop of the slow delegitimation of American national institutions since the end of the Cold War.

It began, I would argue, with the appointment of Clarence Thomas to the Supreme Court, even though it seemed clear to most people he committed perjury before the Senate. It continued with the gratuitous impeachment of Bill Clinton, the elevation of George W. Bush to the White House by a Supreme Court deploying the most specious reasoning, a war in Iraq built on flagrant lies, the normalization of the filibuster-proof majority in the Senate, and now the ascension of Trump, despite not winning the popular vote—and supposedly with the help of the Russians.

What ties these events together is either that they cast serious doubt on the democratic legitimacy of American institutions or that they drag those institutions into the delegitimating mud of the most sordid scandals.

The simple truth is that the United States could barely have weathered one of these events during the Cold War, let alone a long succession of them. That is why civil rights activists were able, finally, to bring an end to Jim Crow when they did—the international embarrassment was too great—and why the failures in Vietnam provoked such a national crisis.

What we’re now seeing is not a cataclysmic crisis—I suspect one day we’ll look back on the language of “legitimation crisis” as itself the product of the Cold War—but a more familiar phenomenon from the annals of history: the slow but steady collapse—the real norm erosion—that you tend to see in the later stages of imperial republics. A collapse that can take decades, if not longer, to unfold.

Update (11 am)

If people could step outside their partisan selves for one minute, I’d ask you to consider the following fact as yet another sign of late imperial disjunction: For the last eight years, we’ve had a president who half the country thinks is Muslim, Kenyan-born. For the next four, maybe eight, years, we will have a president who half the country thinks is the Manchurian Candidate, Russian-born. I can’t think of a greater symptom of the weird fever dream that is the American empire, whereby the most powerful state on earth imagines, over a 12- to 16-year period, that its elected leaders hail from the far reaches of its various antagonisms."
We do not err because truth is difficult to see. It is visible at a glance. We err because this is more comfortable. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

How is it conceivable that all our technological progress - our very civilization - is like the axe in the hand of the pathological criminal? Albert Einstein

budmantis

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #562 on: January 09, 2017, 04:24:21 PM »
A very thoughtful and thought provoking post JimD. Thanks

AbruptSLR

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #563 on: January 11, 2017, 02:13:46 PM »
For the last eight years, we’ve had a president who half the country thinks is Muslim, Kenyan-born. For the next four, maybe eight, years, we will have a president who half the country thinks is the Manchurian Candidate, Russian-born.


The linked article is entitled: "John McCain Passes FBI Dossier Alleging Secret Trump-Russia Contacts".   While it is easy to prove that Obama was born in Hawaii, it will take years of Congressional hearing to determine what dealings Team Trump had with Russia during the election.  Where there is smoke, is there fire?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/10/fbi-chief-given-dossier-by-john-mccain-alleging-secret-trump-russia-contacts

&

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/jan/10/buzzfeed-publishes-donald-trump-russia-documents-ethics-questions
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

AbruptSLR

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #564 on: January 11, 2017, 02:48:12 PM »
The first linked article is entitled: "Trump Nominees Should Answer These Climate Questions".  While it is easy to prove that anthropogenic climate change is a real and significant problem, Team Trump's denialism could very likely accelerate our path to a warmer world, on an arc much faster than that one would assume from a slowly declining empire.

http://www.climatecentral.org/news/trump-nominees-climate-change-hearings-21042

Extract: "One potential flashpoint for a number of nominees is climate change and clean energy. Many of Trump’s nominees — and Trump himself — have widely expressed climate science denialism and questioned the value of clean energy."

& see the linked article entitled "Trump’s ‘Extreme’ Cabinet Could Fuel Warming Crisis".

http://www.climatecentral.org/news/trumps-cabinet-could-fuel-warming-crisis-21040

Extract: "Senate hearings into President-elect Trump’s proposed cabinet members began Tuesday, with anti-science politicians and fossil fuel executives being considered for key posts, threatening to undermine the worldwide fight against global warming at a crucial moment."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

pileus

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #565 on: January 11, 2017, 04:09:38 PM »
For the last eight years, we’ve had a president who half the country thinks is Muslim, Kenyan-born. For the next four, maybe eight, years, we will have a president who half the country thinks is the Manchurian Candidate, Russian-born. I can’t think of a greater symptom of the weird fever dream that is the American empire, whereby the most powerful state on earth imagines, over a 12- to 16-year period, that its elected leaders hail from the far reaches of its various antagonisms."

That right there is a perfect example of false equivalence.  The Birther Movement and CT that Obama is a Kenyan born Muslim is entirely predicated on racist paranoia, without support from a shred of evidence.

Half the country is not suggesting that Trump is Russian born. 

Number of government intelligence agencies that concluded Russian elements were involved in disrupting and influencing the election towards Trump:  17.  Number of government agencies, of any type, that concluded Obama is a Kenyan born Muslim:  0.

Yet this is somehow equivalent?

There has been and continues to be a growing body of information and evidence that Trump has financial and other connections to Russian interests, has a public admiration for Putin, is on record refusing to accept the findings of US intelligence WRT to Russia, and continues his refusal to release records that may show his financial and business ties to Russia.

But, if some of the citizenry and free press show an interest and concern about all of this, they are just being silly and exactly like the CT racist Birthers?

Yeah, OK.

AbruptSLR

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #566 on: January 11, 2017, 07:49:53 PM »
Here is a link to the Buzzfeed article, with a link to the full unverified dossier on the Team Trump - Russia connection.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/kenbensinger/these-reports-allege-trump-has-deep-ties-to-russia?utm_term=.nolaYYMPGl#.ivXQmmdx2r

Extract: "A dossier making explosive — but unverified — allegations that the Russian government has been “cultivating, supporting and assisting” President-elect Donald Trump for years and gained compromising information about him has been circulating among elected officials, intelligence agents, and journalists for weeks.

The dossier, which is a collection of memos written over a period of months, includes specific, unverified, and potentially unverifiable allegations of contact between Trump aides and Russian operatives, and graphic claims of sexual acts documented by the Russians. BuzzFeed News reporters in the US and Europe have been investigating various alleged facts in the dossier but have not verified or falsified them. CNN reported Tuesday that a two-page synopsis of the report was given to President Obama and Trump.

Now BuzzFeed News is publishing the full document so that Americans can make up their own minds about allegations about the president-elect that have circulated at the highest levels of the US government."


Edit, see also:

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/313813-trumps-frustration-with-press-intelligence-community-explodes
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 08:56:26 PM by AbruptSLR »
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

AbruptSLR

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #567 on: January 12, 2017, 03:23:44 PM »
The linked article is entitled: "Head of Government Ethics Group Calls Trump’s Plan to Resolve Conflicts of Interest “Meaningless"".  It seems to me that Donald Trump putting his sons in-charge of this businesses is just an invitation for foreign businessmen with deals to approach his sons and not himself.  This is an autobahn to kleptocracy (not some gentile decline from empire).

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/01/11/ethics_head_calls_trump_s_plan_to_resolve_conflicts_of_interest_meaningless.html

Extract: "Donald Trump’s so-called plan to resolve the tangled web of conflicts of interest that are on course to cling to his presidency from Day 1 isn’t really much of a plan at all. In his press conference Wednesday, Trump and with his lawyer, Sheri Dillon, dropped many ethical sounding phrases, like: “blind trust” and “isolating himself” and “donate all profits from foreign government payments.” On Wednesday, the director of the Office of Government Ethics, who has publicly scolded the Trump team’s weak sauce on ethics, had another word for the president-elect’s well choreographed plan: “meaningless.”"

edit, see also:

The linked article is entitled: "WATCH: Robert Reich left speechless after Donald Trump surrogate suggests Trump’s win frees him from ethics concerns", and it indicates that Team Trump believes that Trump's election means that he can-be/will-be above the law.

http://www.salon.com/2017/01/13/watch-robert-reich-left-speechless-after-donald-trump-surrogate-suggests-trumps-win-frees-him-from-ethics-concerns/

Extract: "Can a president be above the law? According to Jeffrey Lord, yes he can"
« Last Edit: January 13, 2017, 11:37:31 PM by AbruptSLR »
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

AbruptSLR

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #568 on: January 12, 2017, 05:10:52 PM »
The linked article is entitled: "Exposing The Man Behind The Curtain".  Congress should work hard on this matter of transparency both with regards to the intelligence community & Team Trump.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/exposing-the-man-behind-the-curtain_us_5877887be4b05b7a465df6a4

Extract: "A week later, the Obama administration continued to make its case against Russia when the Director of National Intelligence (DNI), James Clapper, released a classified Intelligence Community Assessment (ICA), “Russia’s Influence Campaign Targeting the 2016 US Presidential Election” that the President had ordered back on December 16, 2016.  Clapper briefed President Obama on its findings on Thursday, January 6, 2017 before briefing President-elect Trump and select members of the U.S. Congress on Friday, January 7, 2017.

More important, at least from the perspective of the American public, is the request made by the Chairman of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, Devin Nunes.  In a letter dated December 12, 2016, Chairman Nunes requested DNI Clapper to have the Office of Analytic Integrity and Standards prepare, for release to the committee, an analytic and tradecraft review of any Intelligence Community assessments related to alleged Russian involvement in cyber activities related to the U.S. presidential election.  Such an inquiry would delve into the very processes of analysis and assessment, and answer the kind of “who said what, when, and based on what information” questions that would expose any potential politicization of intelligence that may have occurred in the production of the ICA.

In the closing scenes of the classic 1939 movie, “The Wizard of Oz”, Dorothy, played by Judy Garland, confronts the “Wizard,” a giant talking head.

“The Great Oz has spoken!” the giant talking head proclaims.

But one of Dorothy’s companions pulls back a curtain next to the giant head, revealing a short pudgy man manipulating a contraption, and speaking into a microphone.  The man – the “Wizard of Oz” – sees Dorothy as he speaks.

“Oh…I…Pay no…attention to that man behind the curtain.  The…Great…Oz…has spoken!”

The ICA on Russian influence operations in the 2016 U.S. presidential election has been published, at least in unclassified form.  There is a concerted effort by the White House, many members of Congress, and a surprisingly unquestioning American media to accept the ICA and its judgments at face value.

DNI Clapper has spoken, not once, but several times.

It is imperative that Representative Nunes follows through on his request for an analytic and tradecraft review of the ICA, especially when the ICA delves into matters that have been classified by Senator John McCain and others as constituting “an act of war.”

America has a right to know the truth about the man behind the curtain."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

budmantis

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #569 on: January 12, 2017, 05:23:44 PM »
As serious as this issue is, I cant help but laugh at picturing Trump as the "giant talking head", which of course he is.

magnamentis

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #570 on: January 13, 2017, 06:52:23 PM »
As serious as this issue is, I cant help but laugh at picturing Trump as the "giant talking head", which of course he is.

on just has to think that face without the billions (if not bank owned) and POTUS elect thingy and what remains is a buffoon or "witzfigur" in german

AbruptSLR

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #571 on: January 14, 2017, 12:39:31 AM »
The linked article is entitled: "Michael Flynn, Donald Trump’s national security adviser, contacted Russia when Obama announced sanctions: report".  Is Team Trump already acting above the law (also see Reply #567), and in possible violation of the Logan Act?

http://www.salon.com/2017/01/13/michael-flynn-donald-trumps-national-security-adviser-contacted-russia-when-obama-announced-sanctions-report/

Extract: "The Logan Act prohibits U.S. citizens from corresponding with foreign governments in order to resolve “disputes” with the United States, according to The Post."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

JimD

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #572 on: January 14, 2017, 12:47:34 AM »
Ok. I just have to say this.  It appears to me that pretty much all of you are still in the rending of garments and gnashing of teeth stage.  Yes I understand that the outcome of the election was traumatic and painful and that many things which you thought might happen if Clinton won (and I would probably have been disabusing you of those thoughts by now if she had) are not going to happen.  But really you are off the deep end here.  Really truly take a breath and walk away from it all for a few days.

Little that is happening right now is what is seems and much of what people think is unlikely to be true or is going to happen the way they think.  Things are chaotic right now to say the least.  No one knows where we are going to trend in many subject areas - even those who want to be pulling the levers.

Your hatred of Trump is equally matched by those who hate Clinton.  Both qualify as one of the two most fucked up candidates ever to end up running against each other for the Presidency.  Your anguish over Trump winning would have been matched by those who hate Clinton should she have won. But the point I have been trying to make here - and I guess I just have to say it again - is that  it is not logically possible to pick which one of them is the worst evil.  Both are proponents of BAU.  BAU is death eventually.  One of them 'may' cause that big step down into collapse to come sooner than the other - but I can't figure out which one it would have been as there are so many bad things that either one of them would have been likely (or would want to do) to do.  Let's not forget that all of the bad things people think Trump might do are assumptions at this point and those possibilities have to move past a lot of other powerful people who have their own ideas and desires.  Whereas with Clinton she actually has a real history to examine and it is awash in blood.  And worse than that absolutely everyone of her warmongering policies which were enacted turned out badly.  So a lot of people died for no gain to the empire or for any good moral purpose.  So we know for certain that she would have been a disaster and we are assuming that Trump will be a disaster (for pretty good reason I might add).  But let's get to the point why don't we.  There is and was no reason for thinking that either candidate is going to back away from trying to maximize the status of the empire.  They might and it is only might go about it in different ways ...or not.  After all Trump is hiring on a whole set of folks who would seem more in line with what Clinton would have filled the positions with.  The two of them look more alike every day.

It does not pay to get wrapped up in the intelligence operations being run to influence your opinion and to constrain Trumps ability to make policy outside of the excepted norms.  That is largely what is going on here.  As someone who spent his life in the US Intelligence Community I can guarantee what you are seeing on the news and reacting so strongly to is far from accurate.  Plus you have the situation where the Democrats are in the process of trying to return the favor to the Republicans who stood like a stone wall against everything that Obama wanted to do - and pretty successfully.  Tit for tat.  Then you have the McCain faction of the military/industrial complex (and it would be hard to find a bigger war monger than McCain and Clinton) who see a whole system of pork disappearing if we somehow find some common ground with the Russians and return to an economic competitor status vice sitting on the knife edge of war - where McCain and Clinton want to be.  So Trump is under heavy attack. 

There are too many flaws in the argument that the Russians did the hacking and in how the intelligence community is being quoted to draw any conclusions about what really happened. It is just too similar to a standard intelligence disinformation operation  to trust.  And let us not forget that what was in the emails is not in question.  So in that respect it was a great window into how disfunctional our politics are.  And even if you think the Russians did it and are outraged then how do you justify the open and repeated interference in the 2012 Russian election by Clinton and other US surrogates???   You reap what you sow.  There is no country on earth since 1900 which has interfered in other countries elections even close to what the US has.  And that is not even counting the number of governments which the US has overthrown (I actually helped with a few of those). 

The point of this thread once again is the status and direction of the Empire.  Not whining and sniveling and gnashing of teeth.  There is another whole thread below already devoted to that waste of time.

We are in decline and the many of the threads of the empire are unraveling.  We lack the energy and resources to maintain what we have and we lack what we need to rebuild along the lines of  green BAU as many, who are desperately grasping at straws, want to do.  There is not going to be a come to Jesus moment when all those who have desires different than yours all of a sudden see the light.  That does not happen in the real world with real people.  We are going to muddle along with different factions of the ruling class holding power at one time or another all striving for the same basic goal.  To remain on top and/or to be the last man standing.  This is what empires do and what human nature dictates.  They do not give a fuck what the common man wants or needs.  Look at the evidence. As examples:  Obama has already instituted a 1 trillion dollar modernization of the nuclear triad over 10 years (though Trump is currently trying to claim ownership of it).  Obama/Clinton/Nuland conspired and spent about 5 billion US overthrowing the government in Ukraine knowing full well (I hope) that it would provoke the Russians into action  which they could use against them and for building up the war machine.  Their actions regarding Afghanistan, Iraq, Al Queada, ISIS could not have been more backwards if we really were searching for any kind of peace or trying to solve climate change or help the poor or help the working class.  I have mentioned before that acceptance of the causes of climate change occurred in the intelligence community and the pentagon many years ago.  I have also pointed out why I think that given this acceptance they are not pursuing the directions you want them to.  It is because they are realists and understand that the train you want to be on left the station a long time ago.  We can't get there from here anymore.  So they are sticking with what has worked in the past.  Will it be a disaster.  You bet.  But all paths lead to disaster as we have discussed.  So that leaves one in the position of having to select for trying to ride the avalanche to the bottom and being the ones who end up on top of the snow and not underneath.  Somebody will and those who work hardest at it are more likely to have it happen.

We didn't build this giant military organization, the vast and complex intelligence community, the dazzling global/national surveillance system, the ability to own and manipulate the global media, and our dominant business capabilities to not use them when we need to now did we? We are going to double down on empire till our last breath...or yours.



We do not err because truth is difficult to see. It is visible at a glance. We err because this is more comfortable. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

How is it conceivable that all our technological progress - our very civilization - is like the axe in the hand of the pathological criminal? Albert Einstein

AbruptSLR

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #573 on: January 14, 2017, 01:19:46 AM »
The linked Wikipedia article is entitled: "Neoconservatism".  What readers of this thread need to realize is that Team Trump is moving beyond traditional neocon values of using force/strength to promote American national interest; and is moving into full blown kleptocracy (not empire) where there will be amoral, free-for-all, grabs for individual enrichment at the expense of both global society and/or Pax Americana.  This includes Team Trump making nice with the world's leading kleptocrat Vladimir Putin; which has true neocons (like John McCain, see the edit below) appropriately concerned.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism

Extract: "Neoconservatives typically advocate the promotion of democracy and promotion of American national interest in international affairs, including by means of military force and are known for espousing disdain for communism and for political radicalism.

John McGowan, professor of humanities at the University of North Carolina, states, after an extensive review of neoconservative literature and theory, that neoconservatives are attempting to build an American Empire, seen as successor to the British Empire, its goal being to perpetuate a Pax Americana. As imperialism is largely considered unacceptable by the American media, neoconservatives do not articulate their ideas and goals in a frank manner in public discourse. McGowan states,

"Frank neoconservatives like Robert Kaplan and Niall Ferguson recognize that they are proposing imperialism as the alternative to liberal internationalism. Yet both Kaplan and Ferguson also understand that imperialism runs so counter to American's liberal tradition that it must... remain a foreign policy that dare not speak its name... While Ferguson, the Brit, laments that Americans cannot just openly shoulder the white man's burden, Kaplan the American, tells us that "only through stealth and anxious foresight" can the United States continue to pursue the "imperial reality [that] already dominates our foreign policy", but must be disavowed in light of "our anti-imperial traditions, and... the fact that imperialism is delegitimized in public discourse"... The Bush administration, justifying all of its actions by an appeal to "national security", has kept as many of those actions as it can secret and has scorned all limitations to executive power by other branches of government or international law.""

Edit, see also the linked article:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/10/fbi-chief-given-dossier-by-john-mccain-alleging-secret-trump-russia-contacts
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Archimid

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #574 on: January 14, 2017, 02:22:58 AM »
Quote
and is moving into full blown kleptocracy (not empire) where there will be amoral, free-for-all, grabs for individual enrichment at the expense of both global society and/or Pax Americana. 

That sounds about right. And this is precisely why Russia helped Trump win. It is not that Trump is somehow an agent of Russia, but that it is obvious that Trump will take down the Pax Americana and much of what makes the US great. He will accomplish that without ever being aware of it. It will be sheer foolishness and cowardice that takes the US down.

I mean imagine a guy like Trump, that has always lived in a rich racist bubble.He does not know hunger, he barely knows pain, he has never lived a catastrophe or war. There has not been a problem that money can't fix, and if they are he lies, cheats and uses his influence and power to make it go away.

That's what he knows and that is what he is very very good at. However his life experience is limited to bankrupt casinos, temporary hotels, fraudulent universities and  what I hear are pretty good steaks. Now for the first time he will be inserted in a different bubble, a much larger and powerful one. He is a 70 year old fat crook. He is already lost. He will default to his deepest instincts to make decisions. He will blunder the presidency and the economy of the US.

Of course some may argue that there are check and balances that limits Trump's power. Well, the most traditional check and balance is the Executive, Legislative and Judicial. That does not exist this time around. Trump is in the executive with a fossil fuel cabinet. For the legislative,  the GOP has been deep in bed with oil interests for much longer than Trump. We will find no honor there.  Many of them have already been payed off.  They have the majority.  For the Judicial, the GOP majority stole a judge from Obama, and now Trump gets to name him. So much for the traditional check and balances.

The last check and balance is the states. A state like California might not take so lightly to the new kleptocracy. The federal government needs California more than California needs the federal government. Putin is absolutely loving this. Trump is not even aware.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #575 on: January 14, 2017, 03:37:23 AM »
The linked article is entitled: "Why Does Donald Trump Continue to Defend Russia and Attack U.S. Intelligence?"

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2017/01/why_does_donald_trump_continue_to_defend_russia_and_attack_u_s_intelligence.html

Extract: "If collusion doesn’t explain his behavior, what does?
...
That’s what Trump and his advisers have said in the days leading up to, and following, his intelligence briefing on Russia’s interference in the election. They have conceded as little as possible. They have belittled and lied about the contents of the intelligence report. They have attacked the credibility of U.S. intelligence officials and have accused them of leaking falsehoods “just to smear the president-elect.” They have denied any link between the hackers and the Kremlin. They have criticized the sanctions against Russia as unfair. They have disputed the need for further investigation. They have dismissed the whole controversy as political and fake.

I don’t attribute any of this to back-channel phone calls or an alleged secret meeting in Prague. But I’m at a loss to explain, in the absence of collusion, why Trump and his coterie would behave this way, and why Pence would go join in their attacks on the intelligence “bureaucracy.” Something is deeply wrong with the incoming president-elect and his White House team. They seem not to understand, or to care, that their job is to represent and protect the United States, not Russia. Their behavior in the past two weeks makes this problem indisputable. Until we know more, they cannot be trusted."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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budmantis

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #576 on: January 14, 2017, 06:33:05 AM »

The point of this thread once again is the status and direction of the Empire.  Not whining and sniveling and gnashing of teeth.  There is another whole thread below already devoted to that waste of time.


I just want to say Jim that although I understand you're frustration, and respecting the fact that you started this thread, I have to disagree with you. I don't see a lot of whining, sniveling and gnashing of teeth. I see us trying to understand the reality we're facing and the more useful information we can find, the better we can be prepared to move forward.

Although it wasn't your intention, this thread and the other thread you're so fond of are acting like a clearing house of information. Has the discussion not been about the status and direction of the empire? Perhaps some entries would be better placed in the much maligned "Presidential poll" thread, but let's face it, Donald J. Trump is going to define the future direction of the empire.

That being said, I agree with you that the empire is in decline, and one of the symptoms of that decline was the poor choices we had to choose from in the Presidential election. One more point, once Trump won the election, I think most of us accepted that and were ready to see what he could do. It's his behavior since winning the election that has caused so much concern. What were we supposed to do, remain silent?

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #577 on: January 14, 2017, 01:36:44 PM »
While Pax Americana remains a still born vision in the neocon's eye, Pox Americana's virulent pustules have left craters from Laos to Libya.

My wife's vote went to Hillary, though we both felt relief when she lost.

it seems that the kleptocracy in Ukraine were at least as invested in Hillary as the Russian's were in Trump.


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-01-13/some-election-interference-more-equal-others-how-ukraine-meddled-behalf-clinton


I suspect any foreign entity donating to the Clinton Foundation could be said to have attempted to sway the election, but that would make an unmanageably long list.

Terry

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #578 on: January 14, 2017, 03:27:04 PM »
No, I'm sorry but you just don't get it.  The focus on Trump and all the horrors you are sure he will foist on the US (none of which are certain or a given) is misplaced.  The false outrage about the Russians is just muddy thinking.  There is so much raw emotion wafting around and no attempt to think clearly.  Clinton is and was a tool of the oligopoly just as much as Trump who is likely to do things which advantage him as a direct member of the oligopoly.  Clinton being a paid tool is no less risky (and likely more so) than someone who sits near the top of it.  The oligopoly is going to be in charge no matter the outcome.  This stuff is a side show and not the main point.

Democracy in America is hanging if not by a thread but a small rope and that rope is being sawed on right in front of your eyes.  Since you don't seem to want to listen to me I will provide below a couple of excellent takes on what is going on.  Think about how you are acting is playing into this and making it more likely.

From Lambert Strether - read the whole article starting at Politics

Quote
...Needless to say, once we give the IC veto power over a President before the vote is tallied, and before the electoral college votes, and after the electoral college votes but before the oath of office and the Inaugural, we’re never going to be able to take it back. This is a crossing the Rubicon moment. Now, you can say this is unique, not normal, an exceptional case, but “sovereign is he who decides on the exception” (Nazi legal theorist Carl Schmidt). And who then is the sovereign? The IC. Is that what liberals want?....

That my friends is the end of democracy in America.

Think for a second about how hard you struggle with the harsh things I say.  I come from that world and compared to the folks who run it I am a soft hearted liberal (actually I am such a being) who actually cares about happens to helpless people.  I assure you that those in charge do not feel that way.

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2017/01/200pm-water-cooler-1112016-3.html

From the end of the article which is worth a close read.

Quote
A Coup in the Making

This is not a game, even at the electoral level. It has nation-changing, anti-democratic consequences. Democratic voters fear a coup, or a kind of coup, led by the Trump administration, and for good reason. But there's another coup in the making as well, and Democrats are cheering it.

If a Republican elected official had publicly warned Obama not oppose a policy the Republicans and the CIA/NSA favored because "they have six ways from Sunday of getting back at you," what would — what should — our response to that be? Mine would be horror and shock that a Republican had dared make that threat, followed by fear that he, and the agencies behind him, will make good on it. At which point, it's farewell democracy, likely for a long long time.

Yet the following actually did happen (Greenwald again, my emphasis): "Just last week, Chuck Schumer issued a warning to Trump, telling Rachel Maddow that Trump was being 'really dumb' by challenging the unelected intelligence community because of all the ways they possess to destroy those who dare to stand up to them." And yet there was no shock or fear, at least from Maddow or her viewers.

And Schumer really did use the phrase "they have six ways from Sunday of getting back at you." The video is embedded here. Is that how Democrats plan to defeat Trump? Is it better, more comforting, if a Democrat makes that threat and appears to side with the security agencies' (the deep state's) strong-arm tactics?

A coup in the making — not the one we fear, which may also occur — but a coup nonetheless. This really is not a game, and both sides are playing for keeps.

http://downwithtyranny.blogspot.com/2017/01/whos-blackmailing-president-why-arent.html

The end of democracy is what we are talking about.  No joke. Do you really want to facilitate this. Just exactly who do you think is going to end up in charge?

You should note that the only thing Trump is doing which has generated this tidal wave of Deep State opposition is that he wants working relations, which are mutually economically beneficial to the US (as the top beneficiary), with Russia and China.  Need I point out that this is a really good thing for regular people? And a serious threat to the flow of pork money to a large segment of the Deep State whose face is the IC community and the military/industrial/political machine?

We are seeing a full blown attempt to overthrow the government here with the IC, the military/industrial/political machine (represented by folks like McCain and Clinton supporters), the oligopoly controlled mass media (there is literally nothing on the news which is not in support of this coup) and the baying of the Democratic party hordes.  But think for a minute what happens if Trump is deposed.  Then Pense becomes President and he is far more conservative than Trump and fully in line with the general outlook of the neo-cons in their game of global strategy.  So it is a large increase in struggles with Russia and vastly more resources dumped into the military complex and far less for everything else.  It is an even deeper dive into the overwhelming surveillance state and a complete loss of privacy for regular citizens (thus far more control over them by the forces of the oligopoly).  Not to mention that many of the liberal social programs will be gutted and hung in the garage to cure the meat.

So, hopefully you read all of the above and thought about it for a few hours or days.  We are in decline which is certainly irreversible.  But the pace of that decline can always be affected mostly in the direction of acceleration.  This is what could happen here and if it does the decline will accelerate significantly as what little influence or control the regular populace has will be seriously eroded or disappear.  Once the coup occurs there is no taking it back.

If we get manipulated into allowing a defacto coup things will get much worse quickly.  All of your hopes for some miracle to happen; the come to Jesus moment where all the world starts to cooperate, the aliens come save us, the Singularity happens, women stop having babies for a generation; will be dashed.  The waves of climate change and exceeding the global carrying capacity will wash right over us.

Have a cheerful New Year.

We do not err because truth is difficult to see. It is visible at a glance. We err because this is more comfortable. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

How is it conceivable that all our technological progress - our very civilization - is like the axe in the hand of the pathological criminal? Albert Einstein

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #579 on: January 14, 2017, 03:48:27 PM »
Wow. How many Goldman Sachs folks are now in Trump's cabinet? And you still think there's not much of a difference to Hillary?

Who will "profit" from "working relations" with Russia is Exxon and Putin Oil. This is the last stand of the Fossil Fools. Their bubble will pop nevertheless. Just more violently. The foolish People voted for it. Hillary such a nasty woman, Trump lesser evil...

Now I stop before I get verbal vomit.


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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #580 on: January 14, 2017, 06:07:36 PM »
I'm with Jim D on this one and I hope people will try to not fall hook, line and sinker for the mass media propaganda that is trying to fan the flames of polarization to a new climax. Yes, Trump is an asshole (but a visible one, unlike the neoliberal warmongers), but this whole intelligence charade - as if we're going to be told the whole truth about that - is so pathetic and only aimed at reinforcing the system that is built to benefit elites.

I'm going to post another pertinent segment of the Jimmy Dore Show:

! No longer available

Stop trusting CNN, CBS, MSNBC and all the other Fox mirrors. Stop watching it. Stop swallowing celebrity BS. Stop getting so agitated and remember that those on 'the other side' are actually your brothers and sisters with whom you have much more in common than the pathological super-rich.

Fight Trump's ideas and actions (and only the bad ones). Don't scream for blood because of some whores-pissing-on-beds-propaganda.

Everyone is being played. It's amazing how easy it is.
The enemy is within
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Martin Gisser

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #581 on: January 14, 2017, 06:44:54 PM »
I'm only halfsorry for appending Bill Maher's joke here. It's also my diagnosis.

I've followed the election quite closely via befriending some Americans on Facebook. I found the tsunami of lies and halftruths heaped upon HRC quite staggering. Lots of shit has been thrown on her since the days in Little Rock - and quite a bit is sticking in the American un/sub consciousness. Grotesque bullshit beyond my vocabulary. There were serious grown-ups who believed even the pizzagate thing!

Maybe there's a CIA cabal against Trump. There certainly is one against Hillary by the Giuliani's friends in the NY FBI:

Former MI6 agent Christopher Steele's frustration as FBI sat on Donald Trump Russia file for months
Quote
However, say security sources, Mr Steele became increasingly frustrated that the FBI was failing to take action on the intelligence from others as well as him. He came to believe there was a cover-up, that a cabal within the Bureau blocked a thorough inquiry into Mr Trump, focusing instead on the investigation into Hillary Clinton’s emails.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-russia-dossier-file-investigation-hacking-christopher-steele-mi6-a7526901.html

budmantis

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #582 on: January 14, 2017, 07:04:52 PM »
No, I'm sorry but you just don't get it. 

I may not be in complete agreement with you Jim, but I do get it. I also respect your request about limiting the scope of your thread.

Martin Gisser

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #583 on: January 14, 2017, 07:06:05 PM »
Apropos Facebook friends. I talked about fake news before it was the wørd. Quite possibly I also befriended a Russian troll or two (maybe just a Macedonian kid, but the english was too good) - That would be my benign interpretation of the fake obsession I saw.

budmantis

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #584 on: January 14, 2017, 07:16:02 PM »
I'm with Jim D on this one and I hope people will try to not fall hook, line and sinker for the mass media propaganda that is trying to fan the flames of polarization to a new climax. Yes, Trump is an asshole (but a visible one, unlike the neoliberal warmongers), but this whole intelligence charade - as if we're going to be told the whole truth about that - is so pathetic and only aimed at reinforcing the system that is built to benefit elites.


I'm glad you weighed in on this Neven, which brings to mind a question I've had for some time. Does broad political discussion outside the scope of climate change even belong on the Forum?

Martin Gisser

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #585 on: January 14, 2017, 07:22:40 PM »
The linked article is entitled: "Why Does Donald Trump Continue to Defend Russia and Attack U.S. Intelligence?"

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2017/01/why_does_donald_trump_continue_to_defend_russia_and_attack_u_s_intelligence.html

Extract: "If collusion doesn’t explain his behavior, what does?
...
That’s what Trump and his advisers have said in the days leading up to, and following, his intelligence briefing on Russia’s interference in the election. They have conceded as little as possible. They have belittled and lied about the contents of the intelligence report. They have attacked the credibility of U.S. intelligence officials and have accused them of leaking falsehoods “just to smear the president-elect.” They have denied any link between the hackers and the Kremlin. They have criticized the sanctions against Russia as unfair. They have disputed the need for further investigation. They have dismissed the whole controversy as political and fake.

I don’t attribute any of this to back-channel phone calls or an alleged secret meeting in Prague. But I’m at a loss to explain, in the absence of collusion, why Trump and his coterie would behave this way, and why Pence would go join in their attacks on the intelligence “bureaucracy.” Something is deeply wrong with the incoming president-elect and his White House team. They seem not to understand, or to care, that their job is to represent and protect the United States, not Russia. Their behavior in the past two weeks makes this problem indisputable. Until we know more, they cannot be trusted."
Heck, not only in the past two weeks (latest culmination: KellyAnne vs. CNN).
It should have been obvious at least since Trump read talking points from Sputnik News before the election.

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #586 on: January 14, 2017, 09:48:33 PM »
I'm glad you weighed in on this Neven, which brings to mind a question I've had for some time. Does broad political discussion outside the scope of climate change even belong on the Forum?
It's one of the reasons the ASIF was set up, because I didn't want those discussions on the ASIB. And, of course, there's a strong link between climate change and the things we discuss here.
The enemy is within
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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #587 on: January 14, 2017, 11:11:53 PM »
Modern populist movements like Team Trump and Brexit seek to assume the prerogatives of the  neocons to project power for the good of the people against the elitist global world order best represented by positions articulated by the World Economic Forum, WEF (w.r.t. Obama/Clinton/Democrats, the UN, the EU, free trade/China, the 4th Industrial Revolution, etc.).  It is essentially this "WEF cabal" that Team Trump is supposed to protect us all from.  However, it is disingenuous for populists to imply that Brexit and Team Trump represent the will of the people and that their opponents should just rollover and submit. 

Indeed, it is notable that when opponents (e.g. the "liberal press") state anything against populists they are branded as being part of some imaginary conspiracy, while the actual conspiracy is taking place under the auspices of those same populist. It’s the same in London and in Washington, DC. Trump’s rants about conspiracies against him are only covering up for the real kleptocratic agenda they are establishing

If Donald Trump has “political enemies,” what ought to be of concern to people is not who his enemies are (and most of them are simply dedicated public servants and patriots) but rather who his very powerful (fossil fuel) friends are, and the extent to which the next president of the United States is prepared to mortgage the wellbeing of future generations for the illusion of short-term gains.

Furthermore, the first linked article is entitled: "World Economic Forum says capitalism needs urgent change".  It is past time to go along for the fossil fuel ride (BAU) that Team Trump will implement, as we advance into the anthropocene, man needs to learn to better manage our behavior particularly in the global economic market place as promoted by the WEF.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/growing-gap-between-rich-and-poor-seen-as-key-economic-risk/2017/01/11/7e290a78-d7e3-11e6-a0e6-d502d6751bc8_story.html?utm_term=.2ada46c12d66

Extract: "Reforming the very nature of capitalism will be needed to combat the growing appeal of populist political movements around the world, the World Economic Forum said Wednesday.
Getting higher economic growth, it added, is necessary but insufficient to heal the fractures in society that were evident in the election of Donald Trump as U.S. president and Britain’s vote to leave the European Union.

In a wide-ranging report from the organizer of the annual gathering of political and business leaders in the Swiss resort of Davos, the WEF identified “rising income and wealth disparity” as potentially the biggest driver in global affairs over the next ten years.

Although anti-establishment politics have tended to blame globalization for the loss of traditional jobs, the WEF said rapidly changing technologies have had more of an impact on labor markets.
“It is no coincidence that challenges to social cohesion and policymakers’ legitimacy are coinciding with a highly disruptive phase of technological change,” the WEF said.

Other key drivers identified in the survey of global risks related to climate change, rising cyber dependency and an aging population."

Also, the second linked article is entitled: "Climate Change Is the World’s Biggest Risk, in 3 Charts".  This work illustrates how denialist like Team Trump are underestimating the climate change impacts that are likely to occur in 2017:


http://www.climatecentral.org/news/climate-change-worlds-biggest-risk-charts-21050

Extract: "The rise of the machines isn’t the biggest threat to humanity. It’s climate change, extreme weather and other environmental factors.

The World Economic Forum surveyed 750 experts on what the most likely and impactful risks facing humanity are in 2017. In a report released Thursday, they ranked extreme weather as the most likely risk and the second-most impactful, trailing only the use of weapons of mass destruction. Climate change is responsible for driving an increase in the likelihood and intensity of extreme weather events, notably heat waves.

Failing to adapt to or mitigate climate change and a host of other climate-connected risks including water and food crises and involuntary migration also rank in the top 10."

See also the associated third linked pdf of the WEF report entitled: "The Global Risks Report 2017 12th Edition"

http://www3.weforum.org/docs/GRR17_Report_web.pdf
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #588 on: January 14, 2017, 11:21:08 PM »
The linked Forbes (The Capitalist Tool) article is entitled: "At Davos; China Seeks The Limelight As Trump Takes Charge"; and it raises the prospect that the populist agenda of Team Trump will create an opportunity for China increase its international stature and to become a champion of free trade.  Furthermore, if Team Trump continues its crony capitalistic (kleptocratic) ways (illustrated by the Carrier air conditioning deal), America's productivity advantages will also soon be lost together with its global prestige:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/stephenpope/2017/01/14/at-davos-china-seeks-the-limelight-as-trump-takes-charge/#2203f5cb59ee

Extract: "… there is a growing call for a new global operating system called "World Order 2.0", or WO2. This considers the rights of any sovereign state (WO1) plus its obligations to others, hence WO2.

Haass suggests this is an extension of a sovereign government's prime obligation, the responsibility to protect (R2P) its citizens.

So far in the 21st century WO2 has not been highly successful as the world stood by when Russia annexed the Crimea from Ukraine. The sanctions imposed by the west have slowed, but not discouraged the ambitions of President Putin.

I and no doubt the delegates at Davos next week will hope that the new administration do not take a simplistic, linear view of the world and seek to suggest that globalised trade alone is to blame for the rise of unemployment in the old “Rustbelt”.

What must be recognised is that advances in technology as well as demand for corporate quarterly returns have rendered many jobs obsolete.

I hope that as Davos ends and Mr Trump becomes President he will wisely see that the answer to keep the US at the top of the global order is not found in retreating behind isolationist walls but in educating and equipping people for the “Fourth Industrial Revolution”, the period of cyber and physical interconnectivity. As President Elect he has raised the issue of strategic jobs within the tech industry with US IT leaders.

Were he to choose a direction that veers toward isolationism, China is going to try and fill the vacuum; …"
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

AbruptSLR

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #589 on: January 14, 2017, 11:32:41 PM »
To reinforce my earlier points about Team Trump's opposition to the WEF, the linked article is entitled: "Trump Team Shunning Davos Meeting of World’s Economic Elite".

https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-01-13/trump-team-shunning-davos-gathering-of-world-s-economic-elite

Extract: "Donald Trump won’t send an official representative to the annual gathering of the world’s economic elite in Davos, taking place next week in the days leading up to his inauguration, although one of the president-elect’s advisers is slated to attend.
Former Goldman Sachs President Gary Cohn, a regular attendee in the past, told the group he would skip 2017 after being named in December to head the National Economic Council, said people familiar with the conference. Other top Trump appointees will also pass up the forum.

During the campaign Trump labeled his opponent, Democrat Hillary Clinton, as “a globalist” and portrayed himself as a champion for the working class fighting an unfair economic system. Since the election, Trump, who will be the nation’s first billionaire president, has nominated for his Cabinet two billionaires and about a dozen millionaires.

Many in the upper ranks of his administration are from the world of finance, including several who have worked for or who have ties to Goldman Sachs, the investment bank singled out for criticism during the Republican’s campaign."

As a side note also see the second linked article entitled: "France’s Le Pen Generates a Stir With Stops at Trump Tower" (& for those who do not know Le Pen is a French populist running to become the president of France):

https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-01-12/le-pen-in-new-york-for-unannounced-visit-during-french-race

« Last Edit: January 14, 2017, 11:38:03 PM by AbruptSLR »
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #590 on: January 14, 2017, 11:45:46 PM »
The linked Fortune magazine article is entitled: "The ‘Circular Economy’ Is More Than Davos-Speak".  The article confirms that the "WEF cabal" is promoting practical sustainability, while I noted that Trump's cabinet nominees includes a cabal of climate change denialists.

http://fortune.com/2017/01/13/davos-world-economic-forum-award/

Extract: "The “circular economy” may have started off as a pie-in-the-sky concept, but in the last few years, it’s come into its own."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

sidd

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #591 on: January 15, 2017, 01:01:32 AM »
The WEF ? You mean the same WEF that fellated Greenspan enthusiastically and cheered on and profited from the  2008 crisis ? The WEF that frets about inequality and flies in slave labor sleeping five to a room to service their needs ?

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jan/13/army-of-staff-descends-on-davos-to-serve-wef-super-rich

Naaa, must be some other WEF. The one I am thinking of is the one that will bray their lies until the last banker is hung with the entrails of the last lawyer.

sidd

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #592 on: January 15, 2017, 02:14:41 AM »
The WEF ? You mean the same WEF that fellated Greenspan enthusiastically and cheered on and profited from the  2008 crisis ? The WEF that frets about inequality and flies in slave labor sleeping five to a room to service their needs ?

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jan/13/army-of-staff-descends-on-davos-to-serve-wef-super-rich

Naaa, must be some other WEF. The one I am thinking of is the one that will bray their lies until the last banker is hung with the entrails of the last lawyer.

sidd

With a world of hurt coming within a few decades, you need to pick your poison: Populists (Team Trump, etc.) or globalism (WEF), or you could just fiddle while Rome burns.
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

AbruptSLR

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #593 on: January 15, 2017, 02:21:44 AM »
I have read many false equivalences in this thread; which only encourages denialists to continue with their deceptive tricks.  In this regards, the linked article is entitled: "Democrats Should Follow John Lewis’ Lead" and it recommends that Democrats need to get a backbone and question Team Trump's kleptocrat ways.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2017/01/why_aren_t_more_democrats_rallying_around_john_lewis.html

Extract: "... Rubio conflated the behavior of Putin and Trump, which raises questions about Trump’s legitimacy, with the act of merely asking those questions. It’s a way to shut down attempts to reckon with the existential crisis Trump’s elevation poses to our faltering democracy while maintaining a centrist, Trump-skeptical pose.

Democrats should be pushing against this conventional wisdom, hard. So far only a few have stepped forward. In an interview to air on Meet the Press Sunday, U.S. Rep John Lewis, legend of the civil rights movement, told Chuck Todd that he does not consider Trump a legitimate president. “I think there was a conspiracy on the part of the Russians and others to help him get elected,” Lewis said. “That’s not right. That’s not fair.”"
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

Martin Gisser

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #594 on: January 15, 2017, 02:32:58 AM »
I'm going to post another pertinent segment of the Jimmy Dore Show:


"Journalist DEBUNKS CIA Anti-Trump B.S. & Rachel Maddow Ignores it."
This guy reminds me of Rush Limbaugh... But Rachel exactly gets it. Maybe a bit too quick for Jimmie. The point is the mere existence of these reports, not their content or if they are true. (Kellyanne has amplified this confusion in that infamous CNN interview.) Plus, the stuff was dug out (fabricated maybe) by a British ex MI-6 agent, not the CIA. I've continuosly seen confusions like this since the DNC hacking came out in... when?! fu@#en summer last year, which was also not a CIA leak. Forget about the CIA. Look for the FBI, they have an elephant in their room...

Quote
remember that those on 'the other side' are actually your brothers and sisters with whom you have much more in common than the pathological super-rich.
I'm no longer that sure. They side with the parasites. They voted them into office. Like with climate denial they grasp at any pathological BS to exuse their denial of things.

Yes, sorry, Hillary bashers (of the "lock her up" category) are same same as climate deniers.

We are in the process of a cultural evolutionary fulguration, a split into those of the future and those who don't even want to understand the present. Homo Sapiens Erectus (who tries to walk his brains upright) or Homo Sapiens Trumpus (fuck the planet) - that is the question. Time to chose sides. Like climate deniers you wont cure trumpists.

Quote
Everyone is being played. It's amazing how easy it is.
Yes. Especially if it fits the ego and preconceived views.

-----

I'm glad you weighed in on this Neven, which brings to mind a question I've had for some time. Does broad political discussion outside the scope of climate change even belong on the Forum?
Yeah. Heck, I came here for something completely different, which is now delayed by this thread...
« Last Edit: January 15, 2017, 02:44:32 AM by Martin Gisser »

longwalks1

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #595 on: January 15, 2017, 05:21:39 AM »
JimD   Thanks.  A whole lot of gnashing of teeth and rending clothes for me when the Gulf War started, the first one.  I left sheltering the homeless and structured, loving nonviolent things at the missile silos after that. North Dakota dropped a few charges for January 15 MLK actions in the nuclear "fields" that the US federal government could have picked up.  I went from the nonviolent community of resistance and sheltering the homeless to living and working with the mentally challenged in another type of community also dedicated to nonviolence and faith. 

The one TRILLION(channeling Buddy) dollars allocated for nuclear weaponry modernization was Obama's cholce.  I am sorry, but it does not get much more evil than that.  Especially with several recent retirees of the highest level of "defense" in unison emphatically chorusing the mantra that all land based missiles need to go over the last few year prior to Obama'a decision.  To continue to compare how much more negative, or dangerous or evil is the American empire under Trump as opposed to previous flavours is moot. 

 . . . all of JimD's other examples.  Again, Thanks.

I still have friends getting arrested at nuclear weapons sites, drone facilities or nuclear manufacturing sites., Cathy Breen and Kathy K. fly off to Afghanistan and Syria regularly when not at the NY Catholic Worker or Chicago., Brian T. and John L. and sparrowhawk post at Counterpunch about,  empire.  I have been arrested about nuclear weapons with most of those, although it has been about 25 years.  30 years since I worked in a laboratory. 

So for me, the question, is how to live and proceed living near a floundering, wounded empire that is ratcheting up it's level of violence the last 7 decades.  Me, probably moving back south and being with my parents for a bit as they near their end and working with the mentally challenged.  And, as I did read "The Arctic Year" by Freuchen in 5th grade, I plan to continue to observe the Arctic and cryosphere, I am a creature of habit, but I do grow and learn. 

If you are Christian, you might like the book by Jean Vanier, that he finished in a retreat in Aleppo, Syria, "Drawn into the Mystery ... Through the Gospel of John. There are very few books about the Johanine gospel, and few good ones.   If you are not Christian, the Massey Lecture book called "Becoming Human" - also by Jean is a nice book. 

sidd

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #596 on: January 15, 2017, 07:39:11 AM »
"With a world of hurt coming within a few decades, you need to pick your poison: Populists (Team Trump, etc.) or globalism (WEF), or you could just fiddle while Rome burns."

Emphatically not. Choosing the lesser evil, albeit under coercion, for so,so long has led us into this mess. I reject the trichotomy of populism, globalism or fiddling.  There was a president of the USA not so long ago, who said, "If you are not for us, you are against us."  I disagreed with that assertion then, and I refuse it now.

I have no use for Trump, Clinton or the WEF. I submit that there are other paths. Some I have found myself, and involve actually going out and talking to your neighbors including those on "the other side." But apparently this is too difficult for some, who insist that I must be ethically challenged if I choose to see in more than monochrome.

The pope described our current economy and its institutions quite well at the beginning of the second chapter in "Evangelli Gaudium."   There is a more recent apostolic letter named "Misericordia et Misera" on mercy for sinners which I throughly recommend to those who have not quite walled their hearts.  As a great sinner, though a godless heathen,  I agree with many of his sentiments.

I will do what I have to do, doubtless each of us likewise.

sidd
« Last Edit: January 15, 2017, 09:13:10 AM by sidd »

AbruptSLR

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #597 on: January 15, 2017, 11:07:15 AM »
Carl von Clausewitz (using the thesis-antithesis-synthesis triad) makes it clear that while governments start wars to try to get what they want (normally based on violent emotions), the "fog of war" (or chance) forces on-the-fly changes to the original state policy based on genius (or "military genius").  Donald Trump has demonstrated a shrewd form of "con artist" genius and a "Napoleon-complex" sized extreme narcissism and who has participated in a populist revolution, like Napoleon in the French Revolution, in 1795. 

Like Napoleon's First Italian campaign (in 1797), Trump will likely score early victories in 2017 w.r.t.: repealing Obamacare, implementing P3 real estate economic stimulus packages, and disrupting international free trade. Then like Napoleon's 1798 campaign in Egypt and Syria Trump may well move troops into Syria, at Putin's invitation, to fight ISIS in 2018.  Such military action may allow Trump to establish what was called a "dictatorship by plebiscite" in Napoleon's time (1799 to 1804, including the Second Italian campaign) allowing Trump to get re-elected in 2020.  Napoleon ended the French Republic by crowning himself emperor on December 2 1804 (allowing Napoleon to effectively establish a police-state controlled kleptocracy), and so we may see Trump gain wartime powers by getting Congress to declare war against "radical Islam" in 2021-2022.  The Russian winter of 1812-13 broke the back of Napoleon's Moscow campaign, as climate change may well do for Trump's possible new world order, even if Team Trump tries the use of geo-engineering as the failed equivalent of "military genius" to use rational calculations to control the consequences of their manipulations of climate change to achieve their fossil fuel goals. In such a scenario, Generalissimo Trump's Waterloo (June 18 1815) may come due to a combination of climate stress and pressure from the 4th Industrial Revolution (ala the WEF's plan).

W.r.t. the possibility of Trump becoming a dictator, see the linked article is entitled: "Soros: Trump is a 'con artist and would-be dictator'

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/12/29/soros-trump-is-a-con-artist-and-would-be-dictator.html

Extract: "George Soros argues that democracy "is now in crisis" and that Donald Trump's election and anti-European Union sentiment will help to empower dictators around the globe.

George Soros argues that democracy "is now in crisis" and that Donald Trump's election and anti-European Union sentiment will help to empower dictators around the globe."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

AbruptSLR

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #598 on: January 15, 2017, 11:27:18 AM »
W.r.t.  my last post, I re-post the linked article entitled: "A Dire Prediction for Trump's First 100 Days". 

When Putin became Prime Minister of Russia he had little wealth, after 17-years in power he is now worth over USD $85 Billion.
 
http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/trump-presidency-disaster

Extract: "Putin's power grab is a blueprint for Donald Trump's budding kleptocracy.
...
Why? Because it’s happened before.

In the fall of 1999, just months after then-unknown former FSB agent Vladimir Putin had been sworn in as prime minister of Russia, someone began bombing apartment buildings. Over the course of two terrible months, hundreds of people died in the series of explosions around the country and thousands were injured. As Masha Gessen tells it in her book The Man Without a Face, “panic set in all over the country.” The majority of the country assumed Chechen terrorists were responsible. Paranoia became the national mood and vigilante surveillance the national pastime. Into this chaos stepped Vladimir Putin.

“Putin made one of his first television appearances,” Gessen writes, “‘We will hunt them down,’ he said of the terrorists. ‘Wherever we find them, we will destroy them. Even if we find them in the toilet. We will rub them out in the outhouse.'...His popularity began to soar.”

Putin never looked back. Over the next 17 years, Putin ,  the uniquely unqualified newcomer to political office , became a global authoritarian. Russia was never the same.

Since those fateful days, experts around the world have come to agree that the Russian government was complicit in the terrorist bombings that swept Putin into power.

So, to summarize: In 1999 the FSB, the same organization now suspected of tampering in the U.S. election to tip it in favor of Donald Trump, was caught in the act of planting bombs in civilian apartment buildings in Russia in order to sow chaos and consolidate power for its disputed leader of choice."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

Neven

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Re: Empire - America and the future
« Reply #599 on: January 15, 2017, 11:55:49 AM »
Quote
the real kleptocratic agenda they are establishing

It has already been established.

Quote
Democrats should be pushing against this conventional wisdom, hard.

Democrats need to take their party back first by kicking the neoliberal lackeys out. And stop letting themselves being force-fed by the likes of Maddow and her fellow millionaire CBS/CNN/MSNBC anchors.

Only after they've done this, do they need to push hard against things, instead of playing into the divide & conquer tactics that the system throws at them.

And what sidd said:

"With a world of hurt coming within a few decades, you need to pick your poison: Populists (Team Trump, etc.) or globalism (WEF), or you could just fiddle while Rome burns."

Emphatically not. Choosing the lesser evil, albeit under coercion, for so,so long has led us into this mess. I reject the trichotomy of populism, globalism or fiddling.  There was a president of the USA not so long ago, who said, "If you are not for us, you are against us."  I disagreed with that assertion then, and I refuse it now.

I have no use for Trump, Clinton or the WEF. I submit that there are other paths. Some I have found myself, and involve actually going out and talking to your neighbors including those on "the other side." But apparently this is too difficult for some, who insist that I must be ethically challenged if I choose to see in more than monochrome.

The pope described our current economy and its institutions quite well at the beginning of the second chapter in "Evangelli Gaudium."   There is a more recent apostolic letter named "Misericordia et Misera" on mercy for sinners which I throughly recommend to those who have not quite walled their hearts.  As a great sinner, though a godless heathen,  I agree with many of his sentiments.

I will do what I have to do, doubtless each of us likewise.

sidd
The enemy is within
Don't confuse me with him

E. Smith