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Will the CO2 hit 400 ppm this year?

Yes
83 (75.5%)
No
27 (24.5%)

Total Members Voted: 105

Author Topic: Mauna Loa CO2  (Read 316149 times)

JimD

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #150 on: March 07, 2014, 04:46:11 AM »
ASLR

I was under the impression that a large percentage of the bouys were no longer in service and new ones were not receiving funding.

Quote
An ocean-monitoring system that extends across the tropical Pacific is collapsing, depriving scientists of data on a region that influences global weather and climate trends.

Nearly half of the moored buoys in the Tropical Atmosphere Ocean (TAO) array have failed in the past two years, crippling an early-warning system for the warming and cooling events in the eastern equatorial Pacific, known respectively as El Niño and La Niña. Scientists are now collecting data from just 40% of the array......

http://www.nature.com/news/el-ni%C3%B1o-monitoring-system-in-failure-mode-1.14582
We do not err because truth is difficult to see. It is visible at a glance. We err because this is more comfortable. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

How is it conceivable that all our technological progress - our very civilization - is like the axe in the hand of the pathological criminal? Albert Einstein

AbruptSLR

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #151 on: March 07, 2014, 02:45:19 PM »
JimD,

You are correct for the TAO array, but the Argo network is currently very robust and active.

ASLR
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pikaia

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #152 on: March 13, 2014, 02:46:32 PM »
March 12: 400.62. An increase of over 1ppm over the previous day!

http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/weekly.html

crandles

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #153 on: March 13, 2014, 03:23:36 PM »
March 12: 400.62. An increase of over 1ppm over the previous day!

http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/weekly.html

over 2ppm more than week commencing 2 March 398.52.

Wouldn't be surprised if quality control rejects that preliminary reading. Might be the start of one of those spikes that occur from time to time.

ghoti

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #154 on: March 14, 2014, 05:00:15 AM »
Maybe but they just tweeted 401.62 parts per million (ppm) CO2 in air 12-Mar-2014 so more than one reading.

werther

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #155 on: March 14, 2014, 07:52:59 AM »
Bad news from Hawaii, indeed:

The Keeling Curve for 12 March, latest reading: 401.62 ppm
ESRL daily average: March 12 - 400.62

So now the curve is back in the sinusoide after a several weeks long lull. Still interesting what caused and ended that ‘dip’. Could it relate to the PDO-phase change? The Kelvin wave supporting a possible transition to El Nino?
If so, doesn’t it mark the same sort of instability and severity that characterizes FI the Jet Stream behaviour etcetera…
and indicate a possibly anomalous event in the near future?

crandles

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #156 on: March 14, 2014, 12:18:03 PM »
Might be the start of one of those spikes that occur from time to time.

I would suggest that further 1ppm increase in a day makes it even more likely that this is one of those spurious spikes starting.

crandles

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #157 on: March 14, 2014, 04:33:51 PM »


Perhaps settling down at just over 400?

Maybe a local source issue rather than an equipment problem?

ESRL now showing
March 13 - 400.93
March 12 - 400.62
March 11 - 399.43
Is that different from what it was previously?
« Last Edit: March 14, 2014, 04:41:14 PM by crandles »

Csnavywx

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #158 on: March 14, 2014, 11:46:48 PM »
This is nothing more than the vagaries of the atmosphere at work. Eddies and pockets of air are cut off from the flow all the time, especially in the subtropics. For an example, just look at a high resolution 500mb vorticity map. Much in the same way, pockets of higher and lower CO2 air are cut off or meander, causing these local bumps, dips and stalls whenever they pass over the station. The gradient across these eddies can be a few ppmv worth of CO2, so it's not surprising that we see a sawtooth pattern in the graph.

Csnavywx

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #159 on: March 14, 2014, 11:49:32 PM »
In this case, the spike is likely being caused by a breakdown of the mid-level subtropical ridge over the area, allowing for some higher CO2 air from the mid-latitudes (originally introduced over the Asian continent) to infiltrate.

silkman

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #160 on: March 15, 2014, 12:42:25 AM »
It does look like it's settling down at a 400 plus level after a period of noisy data. NOAA is in agreement with Scripps.

CO2 Now is pulling it all together daily.

http://co2now.org/Current-CO2/CO2-Now/global-co2-board.html


silkman

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #161 on: March 16, 2014, 03:36:09 AM »
Consistent data from both laboratories reported today.

400ppm bar a tad.

http://co2now.org/Current-CO2/CO2-Now/global-co2-board.html

crandles

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #162 on: March 16, 2014, 08:28:16 PM »
ESRL now showing
March 13 - 400.93
March 12 - 400.62
March 11 - 399.43
Is that different from what it was previously?

hmm well now it shows
March 15 - 399.71
March 14 - 399.96
March 13 - 399.99
March 12 - 399.60
March 11 - 399.43

so no readings over 400. Looks more like they did decide there was an equipment problem and redid the measurements?

.

Still
2014   3   2  2014.1658    398.37  5           397.16    378.15    117.24
2014   3   9  2014.1849    399.49  7           396.65    378.61    118.17

from up 1.21 on a year ago to up 2.84 on a year ago.

We're in trouble if it keeps rising that rapidly  ;D

ghoti

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #163 on: March 16, 2014, 08:39:11 PM »
I must say my first reaction is: How do they get 5 significant digits to CO2 measurements? Clearly the equipment is way way better than what we had in our lab (we specialized in measurements of CO2 uptake) in the 1980s!

pikaia

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #164 on: March 16, 2014, 08:43:50 PM »
I must say my first reaction is: How do they get 5 significant digits to CO2 measurements? Clearly the equipment is way way better than what we had in our lab (we specialized in measurements of CO2 uptake) in the 1980s!

I wondered that too, and also, what are the confidence limits?

JimD

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #165 on: March 16, 2014, 08:56:46 PM »
As long as they are measuring it the same way as in the past so that the numbers are consistent that is all that matters in this case.  It is relative change and whether we can observe it which is the concern not whether there is ultimate significant figure accuracy.   Agreed?
We do not err because truth is difficult to see. It is visible at a glance. We err because this is more comfortable. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

How is it conceivable that all our technological progress - our very civilization - is like the axe in the hand of the pathological criminal? Albert Einstein

pikaia

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #166 on: March 16, 2014, 09:19:09 PM »
As long as they are measuring it the same way as in the past so that the numbers are consistent that is all that matters in this case.  It is relative change and whether we can observe it which is the concern not whether there is ultimate significant figure accuracy.   Agreed?
I agree that it doesn't matter much as far a as long-term changes are concerned, as any uncertainty is evened out. However, if you are interested in changes over a few days then it is more important. The March 12 value was revised downwards by about 1ppm, which makes me wonder what is going on. Anyway, it is normal practice to state the confidence limits, for obvious reasons.

JimD

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #167 on: March 17, 2014, 03:09:09 AM »
pikaia

The below might be of interest to you.  It goes into significant detail on how the measurements and calibrations are done.  I think it will answer all your questions.

Quote
We have confidence that the CO2 measurements made at the Mauna Loa Observatory reflect truth about our global atmosphere. The main reasons for that confidence are:
1. The Observatory near the summit of Mauna Loa, at an altitude of 3400 m, is well situated to measure air masses that are representative of very large areas.
2. All of the measurements are rigorously and very frequently calibrated.
3. Ongoing comparisons of independent measurements at the same site allow an estimate of the accuracy, which is generally better than 0.2 ppm.

So actually accurate to 4 figures I guess.

http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/about/co2_measurements.html
We do not err because truth is difficult to see. It is visible at a glance. We err because this is more comfortable. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

How is it conceivable that all our technological progress - our very civilization - is like the axe in the hand of the pathological criminal? Albert Einstein

werther

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #168 on: March 18, 2014, 04:24:41 PM »
Bad news from Hawaii, indeed:

The Keeling Curve for 12 March, latest reading: 401.62 ppm
ESRL daily average: March 12 - 400.62


Referring to my post above, four days later the 'hits keep coming':
Keeling curve/Scripps:         401,34 ppm
ESRL/Mauna Loa weekly:    399.57 ppm (March 7)
Idem, daily:                         401.20 ppm (March 17)

Read also the continuing ENSO-thread. What's the relation (if relevant):
SOI:  -9.3 (latest Australian BOM report)

Be prepared.... stunning events might unfold!




crandles

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #169 on: March 18, 2014, 05:28:12 PM »
Think March 13 has been shown as 401.62, 400.93, 399.99, and 400.21. Seems like quite a few adjustments. Perhaps better to wait for weekly averages?

(ESRL reports 399.57 for week commencing 9th March even if CO2 now says 399.43 (and Wether says 7th).)

wili

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #170 on: March 18, 2014, 06:08:16 PM »
Yes, they do seem to adjust them quite a bit, sometimes more than once. But by my calculations, we now have the first 7-day period this year (11th through 17th) with (currently) official readings averaging above 400:

400.17 to be a bit more precise.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Jim Hunt

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #171 on: March 20, 2014, 11:32:39 AM »
According to @Keeling_curve

Quote
Another first. The week ended Tuesday was the first in the Keeling Curve record to avg over 400. Specifically the average conc. was 400.67

The March 18th daily currently shows 401.19.
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silkman

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #172 on: March 20, 2014, 12:16:34 PM »
Matched by ESRL at 401.18ppm.

http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/weekly.html

It will probably stay above 400ppm now until May but will anyone notice in the big wide world?

TerryM

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #173 on: March 20, 2014, 12:50:44 PM »
Jim
Is this the 1st daily ever over 401?


Terry

Jim Hunt

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #174 on: March 20, 2014, 01:16:17 PM »
It will probably stay above 400ppm now until May but will anyone notice in the big wide world?

We'll keep on bringing it to their attention!

P.S. It seems the HuffPo have noticed - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/18/400-ppm-co2-levels-_n_4985580.html
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 02:19:13 PM by Jim Hunt »
"The most revolutionary thing one can do always is to proclaim loudly what is happening" - Rosa Luxemburg

Jim Hunt

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #175 on: March 20, 2014, 01:21:17 PM »
Is this the 1st daily ever over 401?

Unfortunately not Terry. See e.g. http://keelingcurve.ucsd.edu/

"The most revolutionary thing one can do always is to proclaim loudly what is happening" - Rosa Luxemburg

crandles

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #176 on: March 20, 2014, 03:04:50 PM »
Matched by ESRL at 401.18ppm.

http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/weekly.html

It will probably stay above 400ppm now until May but will anyone notice in the big wide world?

Possible though


does seem to show a reading around 398.2 in March 2013 which subsequently fell to around 396.2

Still
March 19 - 401.18
March 18 - 401.18
March 17 - 401.12
March 16 - 400.13
March 15 - 399.71

is managing 3 consecutive days over 401 which are also consistent with Keeling Curve data. So, week commencing 16th could be highest weekly on record only having to beat something like
2013   5  26  2013.3986    400.01

silkman

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #177 on: March 20, 2014, 07:49:48 PM »
Ralph Keeling seems to support the view that we're probably >400 over the next couple of months. Time will tell.

http://keelingcurve.ucsd.edu/comment-on-recent-readings-in-excess-of-400-ppm/

Jim Hunt

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #178 on: March 22, 2014, 03:28:49 PM »
There's now been 6 days on the trot over 400.5 ppm. It's hard to see how the next ESRL weekly reading could fail to top 400:
"The most revolutionary thing one can do always is to proclaim loudly what is happening" - Rosa Luxemburg

crandles

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #179 on: March 22, 2014, 03:44:49 PM »
So what will monthly CO2 for March 2014 per ESRL be?

(a) 399.76 or under, or

(b) new record monthly high but not over 400, or

(c) new record monthly high which is over 400?

Jim Hunt

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #180 on: March 23, 2014, 03:39:21 PM »
Hot off the presses, the latest ESRL weekly number has come in at 400.76 ppm

http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/weekly.html

As regards monthly numbers, I've eaten enough crow stew regarding the maximum extent, so no comment from me!
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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #181 on: March 23, 2014, 10:14:32 PM »
Hot off the presses, the latest ESRL weekly number has come in at 400.76 ppm

http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/weekly.html

As regards monthly numbers, I've eaten enough crow stew regarding the maximum extent, so no comment from me!

When I look at that graph, I can't imagine where we will end up in May.

silkman

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #182 on: March 23, 2014, 11:13:43 PM »
Latest Keeling Curve number is for March 22 after yet another period of noisy data - 398.88ppm

http://keelingcurve.ucsd.edu


wili

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #183 on: March 24, 2014, 01:11:51 AM »
Mauna Loa--March 22 - 399.98ppm

So barely over a degree below 400, not enough to of set 6 days mostly well above that number.

So the last week's official average is above 400 for the first time this year and only the second time in history (and for millions of years before history started, iirc): " Week beginning on March 16, 2014:     400.76 ppm "

http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/weekly.html
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

silkman

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #184 on: March 28, 2014, 02:49:37 PM »
ESRL has just released adjusted data for the week commencing March 16th - 400.62ppm - and more recent daily data is north of 401ppm. It represents a hefty 3.25ppm increase over the same week last year and may possibly be above the trend but any doubts about CO2 pushing on to new heights in response to our inability or simple lack of will to do anything about it seem misplaced.

Maybe the developing El Niño that's being so brilliantly tracked on this forum might be the wake up call we need to change perceptions.

http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/weekly.html

silkman

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #185 on: April 08, 2014, 12:19:10 AM »
Keeling Curve hit 402.00 on April 6:

http://keelingcurve.ucsd.edu

It looks odds on that the April average will be well above 400.

RaenorShine

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #186 on: April 08, 2014, 10:39:02 AM »
Keeling Curve hit 402.00 on April 6:

http://keelingcurve.ucsd.edu

It looks odds on that the April average will be well above 400.

And thats a new daily record as well. Another 6 weeks or so until the peak .....

crandles

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #187 on: April 08, 2014, 11:30:47 AM »
Keeling Curve hit 402.00 on April 6:

http://keelingcurve.ucsd.edu

It looks odds on that the April average will be well above 400.

Yes April average will be well above 400 along with May and June.

Daily average of 402 looks a bit odd though:


werther

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #188 on: April 08, 2014, 11:12:28 PM »
Well consider it odd, but ESRL is confirming with a daily read of 202.11 ppm.
I'm getting increasingly worried if this is related to the potential strong El Nino rising. Could it drive measurements over 204 before the max?

silkman

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #189 on: April 09, 2014, 08:45:34 AM »
Is Werther looking at his screen in a mirror?  :) :)

werther

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #190 on: April 09, 2014, 08:57:11 AM »
I'm getting pretty bogged up, you're right. But I'm sure you get what I fear.
The 'normal' yearly amplitude is about 10 ppm. The max should fall anytime between mid-April and end of May. 403 could be a max reading. Given the deploying Nino situation the 'normal' could be crossed easily.

silkman

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #191 on: April 09, 2014, 09:14:50 AM »
I certainly get it Werther.

What I really don't understand is why the importance of this fundamental signal seems to be undervalued by so many, including those who fund its measurement.

It's actually the one parameter that has a high level of certainty associated with it. No complex models, no sophisticated satellite measurements, just simple old fashioned hands on Physics and Chemistry.

And it drives the earth's energy balance in a way that's been understood for decades. In many ways it's certain that everything else will follow; it's just a matter of time.

As a Grandfather of five kids who'll be my age in the 2060's do I worry about the future? You bet I do!

Jim Hunt

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #192 on: April 09, 2014, 09:11:34 PM »
Daily average of 402 looks a bit odd though:

ESRL now show some slightly less scary numbers:
"The most revolutionary thing one can do always is to proclaim loudly what is happening" - Rosa Luxemburg

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #193 on: April 09, 2014, 10:23:11 PM »
400.55 still scares me, Jim!

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #194 on: April 11, 2014, 08:13:45 AM »
OT, since this is from the global dataset. monthly values minus monthly values year ago shows how well humanity is poised to reach Pliocene - Miocene levels of CO2.

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #195 on: April 11, 2014, 08:51:10 AM »
PMT111, that's a very impactful presentation of data exemplifying the increase in the rate of CO2 increase, illustrating the total failure of politicians and bureaucrats, from Kyoto onwards, to get to grips with the issue.

Has anyone analysed the projected increase in atmospheric CO2 based on the direct impact of human activities and compared it with the observed data?

What concerns me is the possibility that we're already seeing an increasing contribution from the obvious feed backs which could push us over the edge.

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #196 on: April 11, 2014, 08:55:42 AM »
It looks like ENSO phase impacts the speed of increase somewhat, so this should be first taken in to account.

werther

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #197 on: April 11, 2014, 09:05:35 AM »
Thanks. PMT, very illustrative. I thought of mentioning the remarkable Keeling Curve behaviour in my alarming forecast post on the blog last night. I left it out to be as comprehensive as I could (which always gives me a hard time...).
On Silkmans' question; I haven't studied that direct impact you mention. My impression is that an important part of the recent acceleration has to do with 1) ceasing buffering capacity in the main carbon-sinks 2) the ENSO cycle (see PMT-s graph).
The direct impact of human activity might make this worse. Several countries are shutting their nuclear facilities down (and take an extra bite of FF) and lots of others are more bothered with their economic troubles.

silkman

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #198 on: April 11, 2014, 09:08:56 AM »
That sounds very sensible. Given the recent noisy upward movement in the Mauna Loa CO2 data and the early phase of the current forecast El Niño, could the former be a leading indicator for the latter?

werther

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Re: Mauna Loa CO2
« Reply #199 on: April 11, 2014, 09:28:09 AM »
I've checked that correlation some weeks ago on the weekly data record at ESRL. During the six week lull in the annual CO2 rise. Couldn't see much, a slight resemblance late Feb both in 1982 and 1997.
I hold my breath that the sign this time is a harbinger for something new. See, the almost Nina-like upwelling in front of the Kelvin wave during Feb could have been able to function as an efficient, transient CO2 uptake. Which is 'finito' now...