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DaddyBFree

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #750 on: May 26, 2014, 11:16:06 PM »
Fantastic break-up in the Lincoln Sea visible on MODIS today!

I agree! It is very dramatic, and is continuing to unfold as the day progresses.

Jim Hunt

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #751 on: May 26, 2014, 11:38:10 PM »
"The most revolutionary thing one can do always is to proclaim loudly what is happening" - Rosa Luxemburg

crandles

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #752 on: May 26, 2014, 11:43:36 PM »

With respect to Dr. Slater, I am suspicious of these projections.  The dynamics of the system have changed massively over the last decade, and as the previous two years demonstrated, are amazingly volatile.

The "buffer" - the volume of sea ice in the system - has diminished to the point that relatively modest changes can shift events quite radically.  The prediction is far more of a dice roll now.

...

Dr. Slater's numbers demonstrate a great deal of thought, and by extension definitely are representative of previous behavior.


I was impressed by how well that method worked just from cell concentration with no knowledge of what nearby cells were doing.

Having said this 50 days is quite short term.

It seems quite possible that that 50 day period is within a predictability window but that the method might lose skill rapidly if you tried to increase the forecast lead time to 60, 70 or more days. From volume max to volume min it might not be a good technique. For a season ahead, volume is likely to be a better predictor. Still impressed with how well it worked.


diablobanquisa

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #753 on: May 26, 2014, 11:46:49 PM »

werther

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #754 on: May 26, 2014, 11:49:36 PM »
Thanks for the co-operation, Jim, DB. I took this detail from ECMWF:



A bit unexpected; a low under a mid-level trough/vortex pulling air from the South over Ellesmere Island. Eureka at +4dC today, Alert +1dC. This may end tomorrow, but just look what weather can do!

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #755 on: May 26, 2014, 11:53:02 PM »
And all this due to the lowpressure currently hoovering just North of the Candadian Achipelago Islands?! Give me a hard time believing the ice at those Places is 4-5 meter...just cracking in suh a short time span (Yeah I am aware of the clouds making eyevision hard lately, but anyhow!), amazing no matter!
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jdallen

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #756 on: May 26, 2014, 11:54:46 PM »
I was impressed by how well that method worked just from cell concentration with no knowledge of what nearby cells were doing.

Having said this 50 days is quite short term.

It seems quite possible that that 50 day period is within a predictability window but that the method might lose skill rapidly if you tried to increase the forecast lead time to 60, 70 or more days. From volume max to volume min it might not be a good technique. For a season ahead, volume is likely to be a better predictor. Still impressed with how well it worked.
Absolutely, crandles.

I think with this though I can explain how it is I'm not as certain of Dr. Slater's prediction.

I've been wondering about how much of a difference large areas of open water at high latitude make in energy capture, considering the large areas currently appearing all along the Northern Sea Route.

To that end, I've been entertaining myself with some thumb-nail calculation sketches to approximate and to some fashion quantify the net increase in energy being captured, in order to understand the potential effect on the pack.

So, rough factors I'm using are these.

Albedo (via NSIDC) - Ocean       0.05
        - Bare Sea Ice           0.5
        - Snow covered Ice   0.9
       
To be modestly generous, I'll assume most of the ice is snow covered, for an effective average albedo of 0.85

Currently, the total daily flux hitting the areas that have become exposed is running on the close order of 14KWH/Day/M2 - that converts out as approximately 50,000 KJoules/Day, assuming a latitude of about 75N.

(nice on-line insolation calculator I found here: http://www.pveducation.org/pvcdrom/properties-of-sunlight/calculation-of-solar-insolation )


That is enough energy to melt about 0.15 cubic meters of ice.  Distributed evenly over one square meter, that means about 15CM of ice.

Applying the Albedo values, heat captured by our estmated ice (average Albedo of about 0.85) is enough to melt 2CM of ice/snow a day. The loss to Albedo lowers the captured energy in sea water to about the equivalent of 15CM. These are of course idealized values, but still establish the contrast in effects I am trying to illustrate.

So obviously, the impact of having open water under sunlight in the region is huge, and the capture of energy it represents would be enough to entirely melt out 2M thick ice covering an area of equivalent size in approximately 14 days.  Fortunately, we have the negative feedback of cloudiness to save the ice from such a direct exposure of heat.  The change in albedo will still have profound impact regionally.

Evaluated regionally, roughly comparing the open water to the remaining coverage of ice in the ESS, Laptev and Kara, the open water and reduced concentration implies ~ 15% open water across them.  That modest increase of 15% open water translates into a 60% regional increase in potential heat capture, regardless of weather. 

Succinctly, my thumb-nail estimate leads me to conclude that relatively small amount of additional open water at a minimum doubles the potential for energy to enter those regions via sunlight.

Scale up as appropriate for increased open water, and higher latitude.

I think this by itself makes predictions much, much more vulnerable to the vagaries of weather.  Open water this early has potential to be an exponential multiplier of later melt.


(Sidebar - my fiddling with albedo also puts Neven's comments regarding melt ponds into perspective as well.  Much of my observations about open water apply similarly to melt ponds. Assuming slightly higher albedo, 20% melt pond coverage regionally could similarly translate into about a doubling of potential energy capture.)
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jdallen

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #757 on: May 26, 2014, 11:56:10 PM »
Fantastic break-up in the Lincoln Sea visible on MODIS today!

I agree! It is very dramatic, and is continuing to unfold as the day progresses.

Snap! Crackle! Pop!
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Neven

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #758 on: May 27, 2014, 06:46:47 AM »
Quite spectacular, indeed. I coincidentally had a first look at LANCE-MODIS satellite images yesterday and it was the first thing I saw. That's what you get with a high stuck on the other side.
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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #759 on: May 27, 2014, 07:28:24 AM »

The 00z GFS is terrible.

Major insolation coming to the arctic basin.

Nothing like 2013.
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Jim Hunt

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #760 on: May 27, 2014, 02:04:21 PM »
A fairly clear view of the Mackenzie Delta yesterday:
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iceman

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #761 on: May 27, 2014, 02:39:56 PM »

Currently, the total daily flux hitting the areas that have become exposed is running on the close order of 14KWH/Day/M2 - that converts out as approximately 50,000 KJoules/Day, assuming a latitude of about 75N.
....
Succinctly, my thumb-nail estimate leads me to conclude that relatively small amount of additional open water at a minimum doubles the potential for energy to enter those regions via sunlight.
....
Much of my observations about open water apply similarly to melt ponds. Assuming slightly higher albedo, 20% melt pond coverage regionally could similarly translate into about a doubling of potential energy capture.)
That's a useful quantification; however it does not represent a net increase in energy capture.  As long as air temps remain well below freezing, the lower albedo of open water also means it will radiate more heat than the surrounding ice (i.e. when overcast or the sun is low over the horizon).

The albedo difference (compared to ice) for open water is greater than for melt ponds; the area currently might be either more or less depending whether you go by Rosel & Kaleschke figure 3b,


or by the CICE simulation (from www.nature.com), which has a markedly different time distribution.


In either case the huge seasonal swing - and interannual variability - in melt pond area will make it the more dominant factor around the solstice.  The early open water in northerly latitudes is worth keeping an eye on, though, as an unusual feature of the 2014 melt season.

Chuck Yokota

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #762 on: May 27, 2014, 03:13:39 PM »
Quote
That's a useful quantification; however it does not represent a net increase in energy capture.

I would disagree; that immediate patch of water might not have a net increase in energy, but there will be an increase in the total energy of the area, whether due to back radiation of the radiated energy, or in the latent energy contained in evaporated water.

crandles

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #763 on: May 27, 2014, 03:33:39 PM »
Quote
That's a useful quantification; however it does not represent a net increase in energy capture.

I would disagree; that immediate patch of water might not have a net increase in energy, but there will be an increase in the total energy of the area, whether due to back radiation of the radiated energy, or in the latent energy contained in evaporated water.

Some of the radiation will escape to space rather than eventually going into melting the ice. Likewise when the water vapour changes back to water, some of the heat given off will radiate to space rather than going back down where it does have a chance of melting some ice. It is useful but not all of it goes into melting ice. I am not sure if it is possible to do some calculation to estimate what proportion of sensible heat in melt ponds goes into melting ice. The proportion will obviously vary depending on cloud conditions, melt pond depth, humidity, wind speed and ....

iceman

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #764 on: May 27, 2014, 03:34:08 PM »

I would disagree; that immediate patch of water might not have a net increase in energy, but there will be an increase in the total energy of the area, whether due to back radiation of the radiated energy, or in the latent energy contained in evaporated water.

You're right, I meant to say "the" net increase.  Open water (vs. ice) will cause a net increase in total energy, just not as much as the amount calculated from insolation only.

Neven

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #765 on: May 27, 2014, 04:22:54 PM »

The 00z GFS is terrible.

Major insolation coming to the arctic basin.

Nothing like 2013.

Yes, ECMWF is pretty consistent too. This time a classic high will pave the way for a rendez-vous of Sun and Beaufort Sea (and much more). I hope to do an update in the coming days. I think this is where the similarities with 2013 stop. But it's not 2012 either.

When can we expect the effect to become visible in SIE/SIA numbers?
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Patrick

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #766 on: May 27, 2014, 06:42:49 PM »
Neven, Friv,

GFS from WetterZentrale now gives ensemble middle (I suspect this is the average of the ensemble) and standard deviation.
http://www.wetterzentrale.de/topkarten/fsecmeur.html

i.e.

500hPa,SLP - Ensemblemittel - seems to be the ensemble average (for the lurkers see below re ensemble)

500hPa Ensmittel und Standardabw - seems to be the ensemble middle in contours and I think "Standardabw" is short for "Standardabweichung" which is German for 'standard deviation'.

This additional data isn't available for GFS, only for ECWMF.
...
Typo, Chris?

Anyway, just to clear things up. Wetterzentrale also has ensemble charts available for the GFS, but because of the sheer mass of parameters, the ENS has its own tab. Additionally you can find there a combination of GFS and CMC ensembles (40 Member).

Also of interest might be the "Diagramme" tab, which holds ensemble charts for big cities and grid points like the one of London attached below.

jdallen

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #767 on: May 27, 2014, 06:50:31 PM »
Quote
That's a useful quantification; however it does not represent a net increase in energy capture.

I would disagree; that immediate patch of water might not have a net increase in energy, but there will be an increase in the total energy of the area, whether due to back radiation of the radiated energy, or in the latent energy contained in evaporated water.

Some of the radiation will escape to space rather than eventually going into melting the ice. Likewise when the water vapour changes back to water, some of the heat given off will radiate to space rather than going back down where it does have a chance of melting some ice. It is useful but not all of it goes into melting ice. I am not sure if it is possible to do some calculation to estimate what proportion of sensible heat in melt ponds goes into melting ice. The proportion will obviously vary depending on cloud conditions, melt pond depth, humidity, wind speed and ....

Absolutely!

My intent was to understand inputs into the system over all.  I absolutely agree it will not all go into the ice.

 I may quibble a bit over radiative losses, especially if it is cloudy.  My key take away here is, as a "rule of thumb", the system is subjected to an additional input of about 5% of energy for each 1% of decrease in ice concentration, all else being equal.

Where that energy ends up is of course subject to examination.  The lions share will be picked up by the water itself, which as it is completely open, will tend to disperse it through the water column.  Increased heat will lead to increased re-radiation; I was keeping that in mind.  However, that is happening whether the sun is shining or not, which is why I chose to summarize the input as a daily contribution, rather than just look at the peak radiance.  Certainly incidence angles will make a difference, but we are not dealing with flat planes and perfect uniform surfaces, especially with open water.  The net loss from refraction should by nature be much smaller than it would on a solid surface.

The effect of the increased energy won't be prompt (e.g. causing immediate massive ice melt).  The ice melt numbers I used were to give a tangible illustration of potential effect, not actual.  It will show up indirectly in behavior in a system which has much more sensible heat to move around. Sorry if I was unclear about that.
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idunno

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #768 on: May 27, 2014, 07:06:02 PM »
A small quibble; areas with an open water surface do not, by definition, have any ice in them. Okay, it may be adjacent; but much of the extra energy accumulated due to albedo change will not be used to melt ice, because there is no ice at hand to be melted. It may prevent these areas refreezing later in the Autumn, or some other kind of mischief.

@Neven. I don't think a rapid plunge in SIA or SIE numbers is on the cards while 80°N temps, as per DMI are well below climate average.

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ChrisReynolds

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #769 on: May 27, 2014, 07:10:59 PM »
Thanks Patrick, I'd missed that ENS data for GFS - so both GFS and ECMWF have ensemble mean and std dev.

helorime

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #770 on: May 27, 2014, 08:19:30 PM »
There appears to be quite rapid melting, not just movement, in the Kara, looking at the last few days MODIS images.
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BornFromTheVoid

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #771 on: May 27, 2014, 09:16:59 PM »
Seeing as folk have taken an interest in ensemble forecasting, I thought I'd suggest meteociel as a good site to use. Their GFS ensembles are particularly useful http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gefs_cartes.php

You can go through each member run just like the operational and you can view the panel maps from all ensemble members at once here http://www.meteociel.fr/cartes_obs/gens_panel.php?modele=0&mode=6&ech=6

The ensemble mean and spread maps are also very handy for locating the areas with the greatest forecasting uncertainty.

I recently joined the twitter thing, where I post more analysis, pics and animations: @Icy_Samuel

Neven

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #772 on: May 27, 2014, 10:24:02 PM »

@Neven. I don't think a rapid plunge in SIA or SIE numbers is on the cards while 80°N temps, as per DMI are well below climate average.

Not exactly, idunno. If you check previous years, you'll see that in most cases temps were below average too around this time. Yes, temps are low, but slowing down of melt rates has more to do with melt in peripheral zones slowing down, which in turn has to do with the atmospheric set-up.

And this set-up is about to change to one that is usually very conducive to melting. This should have an effect on SIE/SIA decrease rate, especially if peripheral stuff comes on-line (to borrow a term from the oil industry).

BTW, I had been using the CCI ClimateReanalyzer tool for GFS 2m temp forecast, but I'm seriously starting to doubt whether it is functioning correctly. Does anyone else have that too, and/or know a better tool?
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jdallen

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #773 on: May 27, 2014, 10:24:45 PM »
Superficially, the ice right now bears a reasonable resemblance to 2011

http://igloo.atmos.uiuc.edu/cgi-bin/test/print.sh?fm=05&fd=24&fy=2011&sm=05&sd=24&sy=2014
« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 11:04:06 PM by jdallen »
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JayW

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #774 on: May 28, 2014, 12:02:11 AM »


BTW, I had been using the CCI ClimateReanalyzer tool for GFS 2m temp forecast, but I'm seriously starting to doubt whether it is functioning correctly. Does anyone else have that too, and/or know a better tool?

Have you tried instant weather maps?
http://www.instantweathermaps.com/
  Some stuff is free, some requires a subscription.  I cannot speak to it's accuracy, but from what I gather, sites like this extrapolate 2m temps from the upper air data.  The varied programs/algorithms/formulas used likely leads to differences between different sites while still using the same data from the same models.  Perhaps it helps.

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Neven

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #775 on: May 28, 2014, 12:31:08 AM »
Thanks for the tip, JayW.
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Michael Hauber

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #776 on: May 28, 2014, 12:55:54 AM »
Most of the melt at this time of year is typically on the Atlantic side and the current set up is pushing cooler air and exporting ice towards the Atlantic.  The bad conditions for ice are mostly hitting the Pacific side of the Arctic, and I don't see much potential for signficant reduction in extent yet.  The ice is fairly compact up to the coast still and as it starts to melt it will tend to spread out.  Unless winds are pushing offshore.  I think this factor also affects area as it takes some spreading of the ice pack before any noticeable reduction in concentration is registered.  Also note at some stage the large area of fast ice on the ESS coast will fragment and this will temporarily tend to reduce the open water area that has formed in this region.  The first week of July in 2007 was the earliest I've seen significant open water form within the Arctic basin on the Pacific side.

What I will be closely watching is for the appearance of the 'June Cliff'.  Looking through Cryosphere Today large areas of reduced concentration - presumably melt ponds - started appearing around the Beaufort to ESS from about the 2nd week in 07 and 12.  I would expect that the current set up should produce air temps a little above freezing at ground level, and high insolation, so should be a good to start melt ponding.  Whether its enough to register with the CT sensors I don't know, and it will be interesting to see if the June Cliff can be initiated a week earlier than either 07 or 12.

I've also noticed that Hudson bay is being hit by quite warm temperatures, and has been for a week or so.  The ice is still above average and only a moderate reduction in area so far.  Not sure if thats because of thick ice because of the Arctice vortex taking its walk into N America, or if the Hudson is always hot by this time of year and the current conditions are typical. 

However the polyna at the north side of the Baffin bay area seems to be larger than most recent years despite the presumed effect of the vortex in winter, and no particularly favourable conditions for melt that I've noted so far this spring in that region.   I'm guessing there is warm water there.
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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #777 on: May 28, 2014, 01:23:14 AM »
Because we are still transitioning to Summer.

Heights and ridging are most important imo.

temp forecasts past day 3-4 are way unreliable. 


There is also no hint of freezing fog over the kara/Laptev the last 2-3 days.  The melting under the fog is probably bad bad.


Next a large HP is fully formed and parked over the beaufort side by day 3 and the flow is from the ESS poleward.  But the HP isn't progged to move at all but yet get stronger and warmer with heights rising.

Then possible going basin wide in the medium range.

BOTTOM LINE: no PV then no 2013 or cold summer.
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JayW

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #778 on: May 28, 2014, 02:36:38 AM »
Thanks for the tip, JayW.
My pleasure, in going through my weather model bookmarks I came across the experimental FIM model available at the Earth Sciences Research Laboratories.  I believe it is based on GFS physics, and it's experimental.  Just another option.  Just make sure to use "New arctic" for the domain (arctic yields no results).  And, not all the model variations are available.  But it's free, and no advertisements.

Temps are in Fahrenheit, I like how it outlines the freezing line though
http://fim.noaa.gov/FIM/Welcome.cgi?dsKey=fim9_jet&domain=201&run_time=27+May+2014+-+12Z


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Frivolousz21

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #779 on: May 28, 2014, 09:17:18 AM »
MOTHER OF GOD.


I got a nickname for all my guns
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a two shot that I call Tupac
and a dirty pistol that love to crew hop
my TEC 9 Imma call T-Pain
my 3-8 snub Imma call Lil Wayne
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it go e-e-e-e-ow e-e-e-e-e-e-blaow

F.Tnioli

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #780 on: May 28, 2014, 09:53:20 AM »
A small quibble; areas with an open water surface do not, by definition, have any ice in them. Okay, it may be adjacent; but much of the extra energy accumulated due to albedo change will not be used to melt ice, because there is no ice at hand to be melted. It may prevent these areas refreezing later in the Autumn, or some other kind of mischief.
...
As we have less and less ice up there - it becomes more and more mobile. Ocean itself has water currents, as well. I don't think most of the open water which now gets all the extra energy - will stay in the same place all the way up to "later in the Autumn". Plus, mixing goes on - not just in the ocean itself, but also through evaporation/precipitations, as well. A warm shower from above or a big mass of warm water from below, - can melt alot of ice whenever such ice "gets into the area", or the warmed-up area itself "moves to some other place which still has surface ice.

"Surface ice" words also remind me that there is also non-surface ice - such as frozen sea floor of east siberian arctic shelf. Some 1300+ Gt (possibly times more, estimates vary) of methane clathrate there, and i doubt it all will stay frozen if whole water column of this shallow (and big) ocean shelf - gets warmed up up to some 10+ (or even, 20+?) dC.

In general, i'd say that as long as most of Arctic ocean has surface ice - much, if not most, of extra energy which open-water areas get - will end up melting more ice before the end of the current melt season; only when somewhat about half or more of Arctic ocean is ice-free - only then most of extra energy absorbed would possibly end up doing what you call "some other kind of mischief".
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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #781 on: May 28, 2014, 10:19:39 AM »
MOTHER OF GOD.

It strikes me that you've been posting exclamations similar to this on an almost daily basis for the last few weeks, during which time the ice melt rate has slowed quite noticeably.  Does this give you any pause for consideration?

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #782 on: May 28, 2014, 10:55:20 AM »
You are literally making things up about what I post and I do not appreciate it at all.  It's rather insulting to be honest.

If you don't like my enthusiasm when the models show a butt pattern I understand but it's not all I post.  And insinuating that is really unfair.

Here is all of my posts in this thread since May 18th.  To say I am pimping ice death patterns on almost a daily basis is extremely disingenuous.  The past 36 hours sure.  And the models show a big change to a terrible pattern.  Just like they did 10 days ago and it didn't materialize.  Did I post almost on a daily basis about how the arctic was wrecked?

absolutely not.

Quote
May 18th: Lasts nights euro was the worst late May pattern I've ever seen.

Quote
May 19th: Good view of the ESS region today.

Remember it's May 19th.

Quote
May 19th: The Euro doesn't just rock the arctic the next week.

The ESS and Latpev are going to get seriously crushed as we end May.  I have no idea how fast the melt can take off in combo with the off shore/dipole flow.  But the potential is there for a whole whole lot of open water to form between the Laptev and ESS under predominantly sunny skies.

On top of that in a few days the snow cover in those areas will be decimated and surface warming will explode.  The models are already showing high temps in the 10-15C+ range along the ESS/Laptev shoreline in the medium range.


Lastly the Euro also shows major ridging forming around day 6-7 over the GIS/NA side.

It's nasty and a carbon copy of the 2007-2012 GIS -NAO regime.

Quote
MAY 21ST: The Euro has dramatically backed off from it's bad solutions.  It's still bad for the ESS and Laptev but even then it's not as bad for the ESS near as much as it was just a day ago.

I also thought way more snow would be gone by now in Eastern Siberia it's holding on very strong for so much WAA.

It's melting out way faster around the Laptev.  I guess the low elevation of the Laptev region is to blame there.


Forecasts call for above freezing temps over the Eastern half of Russia day and night going forward with even 10-15C+ high temps reaching the arctic basin starting tomorrow by Tiksi.


Quote
MAY 21ST:  Yeah the MYI is protected completely.  The flow from the Pacific side to the Atlantic side is cut off except along the Russian side.

The 00z GFS shows HP trying to take over after day 5 or so.


Quote
May 22nd:
the models continue to trend better in the short to medium range.


But they don't form a vortex or drop the -NAO

Quote
May 22nd- The Euro and GFS are worlds apart. 

The only part where I feel confident the Euro is wrong is keeping a meridonial flow over the NATL but not keeping the -NAO ridging.

I can't buy that.

But I have no idea if the massive ridge the GFS has over the ESS is real versus the Euro having a vortex/slp there.

Quote
MAY 23RD-  The GFS has backed off towards the euro.  I was thinking about this compared to 2013 as May comes to a close but then I decided to see how it compares to the 2007-12 period and the results were very surprising.

Anyways.  I was expecting most years to have big high pressures sprawling over the arctic but that is not the case at all.

I posted the images over at americanwx.com.  But every year except 2012 was "favorable" for the ice.

I won't repost all of the images here but here is 2007-2011.  And the last image is 2014.

Quote
MAY 24TH
Area and extent have slowed in dropping.

However The Hudson, Baffin/St. Lawrence sea way are above normal.


Quote
May 25th-Numbers are still high because the Baffin, Hudson, Greenland sea, and st lawrence sea way area are all above normal.


Quote
May 25th- the models are trending back worse again.


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BornFromTheVoid

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #783 on: May 28, 2014, 11:06:23 AM »
I did some more analysis looking at the distribution of 7 day extent drops using the NSIDC data, but this time I used the rolling 5 day average to try and get rid of any spurious jumps. I also looked at each individual month of the melt season, rather than the whole. What I found was quite interesting.
The 7 day losses for the first 3 months of the melt season show little significant difference between the first 7 years of the record (in blue) and the last 7 (in red).








June and July is when things begin to diverge significantly. In the first decade July had the most rapid melt rate by a long way, but it seems in recent years that it's been brought forward to June and enhanced in July, as the graphs below show.





The distribution then returns to a similar state to the first 7 years in August



In fact, June and July are the only months that show a significant increase in the melt rate overall, with August showing a slight increase and April and May near identical (very slight reductions in melt rate).

Average 7 Day Loss
Month:  First7 | Last7
April:    226.3k | 215.2k
May:    352.3k | 346.3k
June:   340.5k | 500k
July:    577.2k | 705.3k
Aug:    436.6k | 489.6k


This sort of backs up the idea that we shouldn't see anything dramatic or telling before June
I recently joined the twitter thing, where I post more analysis, pics and animations: @Icy_Samuel

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #784 on: May 28, 2014, 11:19:46 AM »
the ice is above normal in the Hudson, Baffin, St. Lawrence Sea Way area which is a huge amount of ice extent roughly estimating 3 mil or so. 

2010 and 2011 were way lower at this time in those regions combined and 2014 is still 4th lowest on Jaxa to date.

a quick look at a visible sat image or one of those jaxa or arco images shows the basin has been chopped up good.

If the only analysis that one is doing is numerical you are missing so much.



And now the models start the Beaufort high pressure and show no signs of letting up.

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #785 on: May 28, 2014, 11:23:53 AM »
I apologize to Peter Ellis for going off a bit.  I understand my eccentric and sometimes electric posting style when I get excited can overshadow the rest of my analysis and contributions here. 

I hope everyone realizes for us weather based sea ice analyzers prospects can radically change overnight and make us look foolish quickly.

I will push the worst case weather more then benign weather.  I will also push the best case weather more then benign weather.

It's the nature of the beast.

I err on the side of destruction because we have seen so much of it since 2007.

I have tried to incorporate ensemble forecasting into my posts more but it's so dull in the medium range.  I know its more reliable but still.   ;)
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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #786 on: May 28, 2014, 11:27:50 AM »
Quote
And now the models start the Beaufort high pressure and show no signs of letting up.

If this comes about as forecasted, SIE/SIA should drop big time for as long as it lasts. Mother of God or no.

And as long as friv announces when the models back off, I thoroughly enjoy and condone his colourful descriptions of what lays ahead. I find short-term watching of the Arctic the most fun of all.

PS Nice distribution maps, BFTV! Might use that comment for a blog post.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2014, 11:39:04 AM by Neven »
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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #787 on: May 28, 2014, 11:39:16 AM »

In fact, June and July are the only months that show a significant increase in the melt rate overall, with August showing a slight increase and April and May near identical (very slight reductions in melt rate).

Average 7 Day Loss
Month:  First7 | Last7
April:    226.3k | 215.2k
May:    352.3k | 346.3k
June:   340.5k | 500k
July:    577.2k | 705.3k
Aug:    436.6k | 489.6k


This sort of backs up the idea that we shouldn't see anything dramatic or telling before June

Kind of what I've seen also. My gut says there should be a telltale signal of big melt years quite early on but where is it? As far as I know no one has managed to connect f.e. ENSO or NAO to the amount of melt.

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #788 on: May 28, 2014, 11:44:56 AM »


Quote
I find short-term watching of the Arctic the most fun of all.


I totally feel the same.  It can get easy to get wrapped up these medium range major melt solutions.


To explain why I said Mother of God:

48 hours:  We see the Pacific side having an HP develop over it with slowly rising heights and warming temps.




96 hours:  We quickly transition to a large HP over the Beaufort and a classic dipole over 2/3rds of the basin.  Heights slowly rising and warming.  Russia side really getting it good.




144 hours: Same config, rapidly warming, heights also starting to shoot up.  Ice loss would be picking up with consistent winds blowing poleward/Atlantic side.



196:  all out chaos as huge ridging taking place on the NA SIDE.




240 hours:  MEGA DEATH TORCH:  NO WORDS NEEDED, SPEAKS FOR IT SELF.




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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #789 on: May 28, 2014, 11:48:41 AM »
I apologize to Peter Ellis for going off a bit.  I understand my eccentric and sometimes electric posting style when I get excited can overshadow the rest of my analysis and contributions here. 

I hope everyone realizes for us weather based sea ice analyzers prospects can radically change overnight and make us look foolish quickly.

I will push the worst case weather more then benign weather.  I will also push the best case weather more then benign weather.

It's the nature of the beast.

I err on the side of destruction because we have seen so much of it since 2007.

I have tried to incorporate ensemble forecasting into my posts more but it's so dull in the medium range.  I know its more reliable but still.   ;)

I've had in interest in numerical weather predictions for many years, and in general, it's always worthwhile comparing between models in the short term, and then adding in the ensemble spread beyond 4 or 5 days. When you do that, you'll find that the prospects won't change overnight quite as often as they seem.

Perhaps it's from studying similar things in Uni, but I find more calm and reasoned assessments much more useful than exclamations of shock and awe when the GFS shows something bad or unusual at 5 to 10 days, only to backtrack in the near term (as it so often does!).

I understand that it's quite tempting to try and grab peoples attention when you see these destructive weather patterns forecast, especially when coupled with the knowledge that the sea ice is on its last legs. But, you don't want to end up like the boy who cried wolf :)
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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #790 on: May 28, 2014, 11:54:34 AM »
It's very alluring to be anticipating and following the records when they come so close to each other.

2012 was very exciting.  It's hard for it not to be when you expect the science to be right.
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it go e-e-e-e-ow e-e-e-e-e-e-blaow

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #791 on: May 28, 2014, 11:56:56 AM »
The models seem consistent enough that we can be fairly confident of seeing some significant high pressure at warm enough temperatures for surface melt for at least a good slice of the next week.

I've done a bit more hunting through Cryosphere Today history, and 2007 and to a lesser extent 2012 stand out as having wide areas of reduced concentration within the pack (and not just near the edge) that I believe is caused by melt ponding.  In 2007 the start is about June 7, and now it looks like we may see the same thing happen even earlier this year.  Whether we see the double whammy of big high pressure and hot atmosphere temps (i.e. yellow to red on the 850 temp or 500 thickness charts) is yet to be seen, but I think big high and mild temps that we look certain to get is dramatic enough.
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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #792 on: May 28, 2014, 12:50:39 PM »
@JayW - CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!! YOU ARE THE 10,000th POSTER ON THE ARCTIC SEA ICE SECTION OF THIS FORUM!!!!!!! PLEASE CONTACT NEVEN TO CLAIM YOUR PRIZE OF SOD ALL!!!!! Congratulations also to Neven, DungeonMaster, and all involved.

@friv21. I find your explanation of "Mother of God" very useful. But for the meteorologically challenged, like me, just posting a weather map, and "Mother of God" - well you mght as well post it in Sumerian cuneiform; and it would mean as much to me.

@Tnivoli - I occasionally lapse into euphemism when worried about that which lurks beneath the ESS seabed. Hence "mischief".

And I think there's at a guess, about a 50/50 split within the Arctic Ocean between ice covered/open water at the minimum. Some of that open water is hundreds of kilometres away from the nearest ice.

Take for example the Kara Sea. By August that may all be open water, an at an albedo of 0.05, down from 0.9. But it's only the butterfly effect that I see causing that extra energy to affect the remnant ice in the Canadian Archipelago. At a rough guess, the distance is something like the distance from London to the Mediterranean.

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #793 on: May 28, 2014, 01:03:32 PM »
@JayW - CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!! YOU ARE THE 10,000th POSTER ON THE ARCTIC SEA ICE SECTION OF THIS FORUM!!!!!!! PLEASE CONTACT NEVEN TO CLAIM YOUR PRIZE OF SOD ALL!!!!! Congratulations also to Neven, DungeonMaster, and all involved.

Well done, JayW. Here's your prize:  :-*

Quote
@friv21. I find your explanation of "Mother of God" very useful. But for the meteorologically challenged, like me, just posting a weather map, and "Mother of God" - well you mght as well post it in Sumerian cuneiform; and it would mean as much to me.

Ignorance is bliss.  ;) ;D
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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #794 on: May 28, 2014, 01:36:44 PM »
I apologize to Peter Ellis for going off a bit.  I understand my eccentric and sometimes electric posting style when I get excited can overshadow the rest of my analysis and contributions here. 

I hope everyone realizes for us weather based sea ice analyzers prospects can radically change overnight and make us look foolish quickly.


friv --

I always look forward to your posts and, yes, I for one realize they all have an implied "If this comes to pass." attached to them.

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #795 on: May 28, 2014, 02:09:32 PM »
I like the discussion and posting this time of the year. It is never certain where summer weather will head in shaping the properties of a melt season.

Initially I expected the weak ‘winter power’ and FI the likely ENSO event to support a strong but not record melt, preluding a record ’15 season. As always, that could pan out differently. It may not even be a ‘traditional El Nino’-event that should be regarded as a main driver for Arctic weather this summer. At the moment, the immense warm pool in the Gulf of Alaska might be of far larger weather importance.

As it is, the strong tendency for deep, anomalous ridging could be of record relevance for the Arctic this season. And the one Friv calls a sort of ‘Mother of all Ridges’ seems to go off soon, culminating around the 5th of June. A bulge of relatively warm air, arching over Alaska, the Beaufort Sea and the Northern parts of the CAA, fed from the GoA-warm pool.

Maybe it won’t produce the same descent of SIE as during June-July ’07 on it’s own. But as a steering pattern is often quite resilient, more ridging like this has high probability.

Anyway, this could be a very interesting ride to witness. Through the last four seasons I gathered a lot of MODIS material for June-September. I’ll start comparing the ice quality soon!

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #796 on: May 28, 2014, 06:20:24 PM »
MOTHER OF GOD.

It strikes me that you've been posting exclamations similar to this on an almost daily basis for the last few weeks, during which time the ice melt rate has slowed quite noticeably.  Does this give you any pause for consideration?
Friv may be on of our exclamatory posters, but that *IS* a rather disturbing forecast. It places very powerful high pressure directly over the worst place to have it (the Beaufort) at about the worst possible time.
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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #797 on: May 28, 2014, 06:39:32 PM »
PS Nice distribution maps, BFTV! Might use that comment for a blog post.

They do provide very considerable food for thought. It seems to raise some questions about some of our assumptions pertaining to early conditions and their impact on the season.

It has me trying to think of ways to track net energy input, as indirectly that is what BFTV's graphics lead me to.
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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #798 on: May 28, 2014, 06:48:03 PM »

In fact, June and July are the only months that show a significant increase in the melt rate overall, with August showing a slight increase and April and May near identical (very slight reductions in melt rate).

Average 7 Day Loss
Month:  First7 | Last7
April:    226.3k | 215.2k
May:    352.3k | 346.3k
June:   340.5k | 500k
July:    577.2k | 705.3k
Aug:    436.6k | 489.6k


This sort of backs up the idea that we shouldn't see anything dramatic or telling before June

Kind of what I've seen also. My gut says there should be a telltale signal of big melt years quite early on but where is it? As far as I know no one has managed to connect f.e. ENSO or NAO to the amount of melt.

Here's my take... There is no signal.  There IS however, progressive loading of the dice in favor of melt.  That loading is seen in the increased sensible heat in the arctic, and net reduction year over year AND season over season of total ice volume.

At each transition we roll the dice (follow the weather) and each time there is that much more of a chance for box cars.
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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #799 on: May 29, 2014, 12:43:35 AM »
The OP euro has backed off from the mega death ridge in the medium range(day 10+) but both the GFS and EURO have the dipole running strong and warming faster then before.

Expect the warming faster up until we are a day or two out.  Models have major issues with low level heating in the cryosphere this time of year with the albedo change.

The winds of course will generally be bad but the worst part will be the sunshine.

widespread waa and sunshine. The beaufort will be hit methodically with this set up. 

The ESS hit the hardest.  Going to see some big open water in the ESS which has already been primed.

I got a nickname for all my guns
a Desert Eagle that I call Big Pun
a two shot that I call Tupac
and a dirty pistol that love to crew hop
my TEC 9 Imma call T-Pain
my 3-8 snub Imma call Lil Wayne
machine gun named Missy so loud
it go e-e-e-e-ow e-e-e-e-e-e-blaow