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Chuck Yokota

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #850 on: May 30, 2014, 10:37:45 PM »

I am agreed with you entirely on this. Considering the level of knowledge present here it was disheartening last year to see such a massive undershoot on the predictions vs the reality.

I suspect that some of the undershoot was due to noobs like myself throwing in an uninformed guess just for a lark, without realizing that it might reflect poorly on the site.

Neven

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #851 on: May 30, 2014, 10:53:57 PM »
Extent losses to date are pretty consistent with the post-2006 bunch, so I also cannot agree that melt rates are below normal. It is within the range of recent years for this time of May. Not remarkable, but still.

Jim Pettit informs us every day of the statistics:

Quote
IJIS SIE
Fourth lowest value for the date.
Fourth lowest May to-date average.

CT SIA
Seventh lowest value for the date.
Fifth lowest May to-date average.

My guess is that the rate of loss will increase in the next 7-10 days, especially SIA. ClimateReananalyzer also has things heating up quite a bit in about 5 days. But perhaps not.

BTW, I found out what was causing the US to lose all its heat and Africa to go ablaze in the last 3-4 forecast maps on CR: the shift from day to night. I'm just so used to 24-hr jumps in forecast, instead of 3-hr. And I'm stupid.  :)
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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #852 on: May 30, 2014, 10:57:45 PM »
Rest assured that I too appreciate Friv's enthusiasm.  However the fact remains that the temperature above 80N and the overall Arctic melt rate are both currently below normal. We do have to keep our discussion of the melt season anchored in reality, or we simply become the polar (ha!) opposite of W*tts*pw*thth*t or (heaven forfend) St*v*n G*dd*rd's site.  Lest we forget, last year's prediction from this blog was the lowest and hence wrongest of all the entries.

I am agreed with you entirely on this. Considering the level of knowledge present here it was disheartening last year to see such a massive undershoot on the predictions vs the reality.
i don't think anyone actually predicted last year's minimum confidently. the sea ice forum members simply went with the linear trend (the logical thing to do) and the WUWT crowd went higher like they always do and got a lucky break

Neven

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #853 on: May 30, 2014, 11:02:12 PM »
i don't think anyone actually predicted last year's minimum confidently. the sea ice forum members simply went with the linear trend (the logical thing to do) and the WUWT crowd went higher like they always do and got a lucky break

The Wattsians also predicted too low, which goes to show how much of an outlier 2013 was. But maybe they'll vote higher this year. Bastardi has been predicting further recovery.
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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #854 on: May 30, 2014, 11:13:01 PM »

My guess is that the rate of loss will increase in the next 7-10 days, especially SIA. ClimateReananalyzer also has things heating up quite a bit in about 5 days. But perhaps not.

BTW, I found out what was causing the US to lose all its heat and Africa to go ablaze in the last 3-4 forecast maps on CR: the shift from day to night. I'm just so used to 24-hr jumps in forecast, instead of 3-hr. And I'm stupid.  :)

My tendency is to use CCI Reanalyzer's forecasts when comparing to the same 24-hour frequencies (so hour 0, 24, 48, etc.) But it is quirky in that it does factor in diurnal anomalies, so at the same time you'll be seeing 3 p.m. late spring temperatures in the eastern US as rather warm, Africa and Europe are showing the cooler night temperatures. I have to toggle back and forth between their anomaly forecasts and the nominal temperature forecasts to get a full understanding of what's happening. It's more laborious and takes getting used to, but I find it useful at least for short-term forecasts. Now with the Arctic, I would think the hourly factors would be less significant as we move towards the solstice, since the temperature range is based more on the time of year than time of day.

Frivolousz21

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #855 on: May 30, 2014, 11:15:55 PM »
Rest assured that I too appreciate Friv's enthusiasm.  However the fact remains that the temperature above 80N and the overall Arctic melt rate are both currently below normal. We do have to keep our discussion of the melt season anchored in reality, or we simply become the polar (ha!) opposite of W*tts*pw*thth*t or (heaven forfend) St*v*n G*dd*rd's site.  Lest we forget, last year's prediction from this blog was the lowest and hence wrongest of all the entries.

I came on here all summer telling the blog and forum of the massive bust way back in June.  I begged Neven and the blog to not continue down that path.  This is not to rip neven or the blog members.  But to show that I also was concerned about Nevens blog losing credibility.

Jaxa is 4th lowest on record and your talking about 80N?  How can Jaxa be 4th lowest on record with above normal ice all over the Hudson and Baffin regions and the arctic not be in really bad shape?

What about CT?

I re-posted 10 days worth of my posts defending myself against your inquiry and showed that I don't come on here everyday and claim the end is near.

Speculating on numerical models in 10 day frames or less is nothing like predicting the ice is going to completely melt out or smash records. 

My official prediction for 2014 on americanwx is 3.15 CT Area and 4.5 mil on Jaxa. 

Last year from June on my prediction was 4.2 to 4.5 mil km2 on Jaxa.  It took the best weather since 1996 to prevent that. 

I look forward to your posts on the blog and forum, I also wish you well.  I am not going to address this again tho.

Model speculation is what it is.  It's always going to be highly subject to change.

I will leave you with this tho:

The end is near:  ;D ;D ;D



seriously that is a bad pattern.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2014, 11:24:08 PM by frivolousz21 »
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forkyfork

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #856 on: May 30, 2014, 11:17:43 PM »
the 12z euro ens mean is ugly. LP south of the kara sea through the entire run and above normal heights over the arctic basin

Neven

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #857 on: May 30, 2014, 11:29:31 PM »
Quote
I begged Neven and the blog to not continue down that path.

I never went down no path, and if I did, I was always clear about it, before, during and after. It took me too long to figure out what was going on, because I thought that weather couldn't play such an important role any longer (because I saw clear signs of that in 2011 and especially 2012). I expected that one period of weather conducive to melting would bring 2013 close to 2007/2011. This wasn't so. I learned. I wrote (and still write) about what I learned.

It don't get more credible than that.  :P ;D

I can't and don't want to control polls, but I will put them up. I just have to make sure to put in enough bins to choose from this year. I had too little lower bins in 2012, and not enough higher bins in 2013. All in all the average is fantastic. Just like Antarctic sea ice gains compensating for Arctic sea ice loss.  ;)
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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #858 on: May 30, 2014, 11:32:00 PM »
the 12z euro ens mean is ugly. LP south of the kara sea through the entire run and above normal heights over the arctic basin

By day 5-7 there is almost no green on this height chart below.  I know it's just a color delineation but it's a good rough guide without anomaly charts of whats what since it's hard for me at least to discern the chart otherwise with the color scheme.

lol, wait I Just doubled checked that link you sent me and put in hour 120 and 144 and yeah height anomalies are big over the NA side.

It may not show up on the extent charts immediately but melt ponding and melting will be in full swing by early next week over a large part of the Pacific side. 



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Frivolousz21

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #859 on: May 30, 2014, 11:40:11 PM »
Quote
I begged Neven and the blog to not continue down that path.

I never went down no path, and if I did, I was always clear about it, before, during and after. It took me too long to figure out what was going on, because I thought that weather couldn't play such an important role any longer (because I saw clear signs of that in 2011 and especially 2012). I expected that one period of weather conducive to melting would bring 2013 close to 2007/2011. This wasn't so. I learned. I wrote (and still write) about what I learned.

It don't get more credible than that.  :P ;D

I can't and don't want to control polls, but I will put them up. I just have to make sure to put in enough bins to choose from this year. I had too little lower bins in 2012, and not enough higher bins in 2013. All in all the average is fantastic. Just like Antarctic sea ice gains compensating for Arctic sea ice loss.  ;)


Totally appreciate this post. 


The weather last summer taught me that the ice is beyond repair for sure.  It was 2nd to only 1996 and the ice still ended up worse then 2009.

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Frivolousz21

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #860 on: May 31, 2014, 02:18:04 AM »

Mother of God.


 8)

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jdallen

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #861 on: May 31, 2014, 06:15:18 AM »

Mother of God.


 8)


Rather worse forecast than the last one of this series (Mothers of God).

Not a trend I care for.  This week may be the most interesting in a while.
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LRC1962

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #863 on: May 31, 2014, 06:50:51 AM »
The fun part of of melting Arctic Ice is that everything seems to effect it. Ocean currents and how warm and strong they are, how hot it will be, how sunny it will be, how stormy, which direction are the winds pushing it, how much will get flushed out the Fram, is the ice a solid ice cube or a slush puppy and exactly what part of the spectrum is it, ......
In the past 7 years we have witnessed to one degree or another all these things (and probably a few I missed)

Shows that currents flowing into that Arctic could be warmer then normal based on current SSTA's, as for the weather no one can predict that. So we are back to falling back to trends and based on that since 2013 was so great for holding onto ice and the last 10 years was a flat line as far as world temps are concerned, if not this year very very soon we are going to pay for all that built up heat (unless you are a firm believer that is a conspiracy). The question then becomes, 1)will it hit all parts more are less the same, 2)concentrate mainly at the poles, or 3)focus mainly at one pole and not the other, 4)at the equator.
If 1 will not be as bad as could be, if 2 we are in trouble, if 3 A very very bad scenario, if 4 very bad also because that willcreate mega storms all over the place.
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Frivolousz21

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #864 on: May 31, 2014, 01:15:36 PM »
The 06z GFS:



Here is a still image of a week from now.  It's quite amazing.


During peak insolation as well.

That is a massive ridge. Wall to wall Sun.

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #865 on: May 31, 2014, 01:42:51 PM »

Mother of God. 8)

A super-HPS on Greenland! Think that model might have departed a little from reality.

Seeing all these posts speculating on 5-7day output reminds me of a certain Australian snow forum, where weather-watchers will track the progress of a forecast cold front or cut off low from the moment it 'appears' in the 7 day forecast window. (for those who don't know, the quality and quantity of snow in Australia's mountainous areas in any years' ski season is somewhat of a lottery).

Whether or not the ECMWF scenario turns out, things certainly look to be heating up (pun intended) in the Arctic over the next few days. The thing to remember (or at least I need to remind myself) about the ice is that the effect of weather is integrating (with some time-lag thanks to sea surface heating). A few days of super-bad weather in an 'average' summer will not do the same damage as a whole summer of somewhat-bad weather.

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #866 on: May 31, 2014, 02:17:22 PM »
I suspect we will have a final ice result some where between the 2012 and 2013 minimas. closer to 2013 then 2012 how ever.

Lord M Vader

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #867 on: May 31, 2014, 02:57:05 PM »
GFS 06z run looks really nice with a building HP 1020-1030 covering almost the whole Arctic basin.. :D Will probably mean a lot of sunshine if this forecast materializes and melt ponds... What I've been looking at for the last week is why the ice in ESS have remained at 100% concentration at Bremens ice chart.. If this forecast comes true I think we should see a quick deterioration of this ice concentration in ESS..

If it wouldn't have been for last years cold summer I would have been quite sure that this years ice minimum would have smashed 2012... I still believe we will end up somewhere in the range 3,9-4,5 million km2..

BornFromTheVoid

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #868 on: May 31, 2014, 03:02:36 PM »
The pattern from day 5 onward looks quite bad on both the GFS and ECM, quite 2007 esque, a strong dipole combined with a -ve AO, sending the cold air south into the Atlantic and flooding the Arctic with warmth from the Pacific and Siberia. While it remains beyond 5 days though, I won't be getting too worried/excited, but it's certainly worth keeping an eye on.
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LRC1962

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #869 on: May 31, 2014, 03:11:42 PM »
A few days of super-bad weather in an 'average' summer will not do the same damage as a whole summer of somewhat-bad weather.
But as we found out in 2012. A few very bad days on a mediocre summer can make for a very day time for ice.
Also if it is right that melt ponds hold a key, melting a a very bad time can make or brake a whole summer no matter what the summer is like.
Then of course as all hurricane watchers can tell you. You can have all the dominoes lined up right and one little hic-up can wreck all projections. On the other hand a little hic-up can turn a little weather into a disaster.
As a side note: The more patterns get looked at, the more patterns start forming a bigger picture.
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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #870 on: May 31, 2014, 03:39:24 PM »
The big thing to watch is how long this bad pattern stays put.  The models are showing multiple cut off SLPs in the classic positions for massive arctic ridging. 

The 06z GFS is the most extreme run so far.  It has the massive ridge just sit over the entire arctic basin thru June 10th at least between 1035-1040HP.

That would bring an incredible widespread albedo drop.  Literally almost the entire ice sheet would have melt ponds on it by June 10th.

It's not a classic dipole anomaly.  But we have thin FYI over the pole.

The other question is will the snow pack over the Beaufort and Western CAB become a positive feedback.

I keep waiting for the models to totally back off from this. 

Every single June-July-Aug from Aug of 2006 to Aug of 2012 had a -NAO until 2013.

Here is the gfs ensemble mean forecast:


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BornFromTheVoid

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #871 on: May 31, 2014, 03:53:42 PM »
The big thing to watch is how long this bad pattern stays put.  The models are showing multiple cut off SLPs in the classic positions for massive arctic ridging. 

The 06z GFS is the most extreme run so far.  It has the massive ridge just sit over the entire arctic basin thru June 10th at least between 1035-1040HP.

That would bring an incredible widespread albedo drop.  Literally almost the entire ice sheet would have melt ponds on it by June 10th.

It's not a classic dipole anomaly.  But we have thin FYI over the pole.

The other question is will the snow pack over the Beaufort and Western CAB become a positive feedback.

I keep waiting for the models to totally back off from this. 

Every single June-July-Aug from Aug of 2006 to Aug of 2012 had a -NAO until 2013.

It certainly is the typical summer pattern of the 2007-2012 period being forecast





2007 was slightly different, the a strong pressure gradient, high pressure closer to Beaufort and a ridge toward the Bering strait.



A 2007 pattern with the ice the way it is now would likely send us well below 2 million km2 by September.
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LRC1962

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #872 on: May 31, 2014, 03:56:33 PM »
I love this site. Just figured out that not only do they have current and archived weather info, they do future forecasts also up to 5 days (I think that's it) ahead.
See this: http://earth.nullschool.net/#2014/06/04/0900Z/wind/isobaric/500hPa/overlay=mean_sea_level_pressure/azimuthal_equidistant=0.00,90.00,253
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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #873 on: May 31, 2014, 10:16:18 PM »
Latest ECMWF 12z was not too bad.. Btw, Longyearbyen have had temps above freeze point continuously for the last 4-7 days and is forecasted to have temps above 0C the next 10 days.. This should mean bad news and quick melt for the ice in this region next week... Statistic for Svalbard is available here: http://www.yr.no/sted/Norge/Svalbard/Longyearbyen/statistikk.html

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #874 on: May 31, 2014, 11:48:42 PM »
Latest ECMWF 12z was not too bad.. Btw, Longyearbyen have had temps above freeze point continuously for the last 4-7 days and is forecasted to have temps above 0C the next 10 days.. This should mean bad news and quick melt for the ice in this region next week... Statistic for Svalbard is available here: http://www.yr.no/sted/Norge/Svalbard/Longyearbyen/statistikk.html

It has done this twice recently with it's ensemble mean saying it's crap until we see an established trend something keeps happening around day 5 then it totally diverges from the rest of the models including it's own ensembles.

I wouldn't be surprised with a taming of the pattern tho.
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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #875 on: June 01, 2014, 12:48:09 AM »
Sorry guys and gals, you are really losing me. Almost the whole of this page, and the previous 3 or 4, seems to be taken up with various squabbles about the prognosis over the following 240 hours for Arctic weather, at ??? HPa,

Does nobody have anything to say about the ACTUAL PRESENT OBSERVED FACTUAL state of the Arctic Sea Ice; SSTs, SATs; something, anything other than what YOU think the weather MAY do in a week's time?

Bonus points for concentrating on actual events at sea level, +/- 20cm, and visoble from space. At present; or very recent past.

(Double bonus for acknowledging that seawater has 1000x the thermal capacity of air; and 90% of global warming has accumulated in the ocean.)

(A thousand times biilion bonus points if you can demonstrate why 2012 ASI levels were lower than 1979 levels, based on trivial weather patterns. Plus a Nobel Prize to be shared with Judith, as sponsored by Koch Industries.) You too could be frontpage news in the Times of London.

Meanwhile, us amateurs here can either, it seems to me, EITHER report and document the actual observed changes to the ASI at present; OR continue to indulge ourselves in incoherent speculation about the likely state of the ASI in several days time.

Frivolousz21

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #876 on: June 01, 2014, 01:20:06 AM »
Sorry guys and gals, you are really losing me. Almost the whole of this page, and the previous 3 or 4, seems to be taken up with various squabbles about the prognosis over the following 240 hours for Arctic weather, at ??? HPa,

Does nobody have anything to say about the ACTUAL PRESENT OBSERVED FACTUAL state of the Arctic Sea Ice; SSTs, SATs; something, anything other than what YOU think the weather MAY do in a week's time?

Bonus points for concentrating on actual events at sea level, +/- 20cm, and visoble from space. At present; or very recent past.

(Double bonus for acknowledging that seawater has 1000x the thermal capacity of air; and 90% of global warming has accumulated in the ocean.)

(A thousand times biilion bonus points if you can demonstrate why 2012 ASI levels were lower than 1979 levels, based on trivial weather patterns. Plus a Nobel Prize to be shared with Judith, as sponsored by Koch Industries.) You too could be frontpage news in the Times of London.

Meanwhile, us amateurs here can either, it seems to me, EITHER report and document the actual observed changes to the ASI at present; OR continue to indulge ourselves in incoherent speculation about the likely state of the ASI in several days time.

1.  Current state of the ice is hard to determine.  Most of the ice loss so far has come from flushing.  We have seen a ton of it since March.  So there is a lot of think ice on the Russian side and a lot of MYI has been flushed.

2.  The arctic is clearing out so we will get a better picture the next few days.

3.  I Think starting tonight or tomorrow Jaxa is going to start having large drops.  We have lost essentially no ice in the Baffin/Hudson extent wise.  That is a big key in why some of us think a plummet is coming.


The rest of the stuff you said is right.  It will be easier to melt ice with less and less perfect patterns thanks to AGW. 

I got a nickname for all my guns
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machine gun named Missy so loud
it go e-e-e-e-ow e-e-e-e-e-e-blaow

Frivolousz21

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #877 on: June 01, 2014, 01:36:04 AM »
The GFS has been super consistently bringing the pain.  The euro has waffled a lot.  Although the Euro ensembles remain in bed with the GFS and it's ensembles.

The JMA is on board.








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ghoti

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #878 on: June 01, 2014, 02:09:18 AM »
Thanks idunno.

I've been feeling the same as you on this thread. Seems like weeks of posts about future heat based on incorrect forecasts while the weather has remained cloudy/foggy, with below long term average temperatures. What we can see of the ice does look bad and the temperature will go up (they always do this time of year :P) so we'll see June drops. But 10 days forecasts? Are you kidding me? They can't even get tomorrow's forecast right half the time.

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #879 on: June 01, 2014, 02:44:09 AM »
I miss the 'short to medium term weather conditions' thread - this stuff needs a home it can call its own

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #880 on: June 01, 2014, 02:45:48 AM »
While I have little understanding of Arctic weather forecast models, I am certain I can no longer trust weather forecasts in the Midwestern U.S. The frequently miss tomorrow's forecast. Yesterday, Chicago was forecast for a  high of 76F. We hit 89F. This has been the rule for  several years now.

I also would not like more focus on what is happening right now.

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #881 on: June 01, 2014, 02:50:12 AM »
I miss the 'short to medium term weather conditions' thread - this stuff needs a home it can call its own

Do you mean this?

http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,92.0.html

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #882 on: June 01, 2014, 02:51:41 AM »
I actually do believe these forecast models belong here. I would simply like more discussion on other topics related to the melt season.

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #883 on: June 01, 2014, 02:58:23 AM »
They can't even get tomorrow's forecast right half the time.

I see this sentiment repeated over and over again (though usually at Watts' or one of the septic sites).  Do you actually have any evidence that weather forecasts 24 to 48 hours out are usually wrong?

Anyone that follows the arctic for a few years becomes achingly familiar with the knowledge that the ice extent/area numbers at this time of year have little to no correlation with the final September minimum; so what is the point in looking at those numbers with any great interest?

Clear skies, melt ponds, and transport over the next three months will determine the minimum.  Nothing you read here today is going to tell you or even give you a reasonable clue as to what's going to happen. 

Idunno what people expect.  Friv, BFTV, and others give us a glimpse into what they see, what their particular interests are.  I appreciate information and opinions *about* the past, current, future state of the ice - and most of that will revolve around weather. 

Instead I'm seeing a lot of people bitching about posts/comments they don't want to read - fine - then don't read them.  Some of us *do* enjoy reading them and would rather you not try to chase these posters away.

Shared Humanity - Chicago is a large metro area.  The temperature in the metro area can vary 15 to 20 F.  It can vary even more anytime the wind shifts even a few degrees if it brings the lake into play.  I have lived most of my life within a few miles of either Lake Superior or Lake Michigan.  Unless you're more than 10 miles inland the lake determines daily weather.  I live just north of you in Milwaukee and our forecasts over the short range are typically very good.  Though I have noticed that  the average front is usually 6 hours late in arriving compared to the forecasts 48 to 72 hours earlier.




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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #884 on: June 01, 2014, 03:01:59 AM »
Thanks idunno.

I've been feeling the same as you on this thread. Seems like weeks of posts about future heat based on incorrect forecasts while the weather has remained cloudy/foggy, with below long term average temperatures. What we can see of the ice does look bad and the temperature will go up (they always do this time of year :P) so we'll see June drops. But 10 days forecasts? Are you kidding me? They can't even get tomorrow's forecast right half the time.

I think... it on some level, is about fear.  I'll introduce my sumo wrestler metaphor here.

The "game" - net energy available in the environment - has been changing in more noticeable ways.  The weather is a symptom of that; the state of the ice is a symptom of that. 

We have already seen 6 months of absolutely extraordinary weather which has been very detrimental to the ice... to the degree that, in spite of a recovery last melt season, the ice at peak in April was no better off than at the start of 2012.  We have good reason to fear predictions of heat over the arctic.

Hyperbole aside, there are titanic forces at work energy-wise - my sumo wrestlers - and the mat has been progressively been tipping in favor of increasing melt.  One of these times, the "melt" wrestler will succeed in tossing his opponent off of the mat, this year, next, or whenever.  At some point the mat will tip so far in favor of melt, that any manner of supportive weather will fail, and we will see a catastrophic drop.

So, in view of that, I don't really find hyperbole that far out of place.  The way I look at it, it is just someone pointing out that this might be "it".

« Last Edit: June 01, 2014, 03:14:17 AM by jdallen »
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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #885 on: June 01, 2014, 03:21:56 AM »
There is nothing more important then speculating on the the weather attm.  Why on Earth would we ignore 10 days guidance just because it's validation sucks?

This is how sea ice tracking has always been everywhere it's tracked.  How can one expect to be a better forecaster if they don't speculate.  There are threads for folks who want numerical analysis in real time only and want to project off of that.

If that is what the folks here want then we can stop speculating on the weather and create a new thread.

But I guarantee this thread will die and everyone will post in that one even if they say they don't like medium range weather talk.

It's a bit funny because the highlight of following the arctic sea ice for most of us was the 7-8 day lead up in early August 2012.

That powerhouse vortex showed up on the GFS and Euro over a week out.  And it was pushed back 2 days at least while the models continued to build it up and starting throwing out a mega cyclone.

The gratifying part was that if you followed the weather all summer you had a gut feeling that this was going to be different and then we saw the most incredible cryosphere climate change event so far in modern human history unfold in real time with a 7-8 day lead up.

Well we are not talking about this dipole being here in a week It's here right now.  The arctic has already started to rapidly clear and temps are starting to warm quickly. 

There is going to be consequences at least some what of a plummet even if there is a model reversal(not gonna happen).  It's only May 31st. 




I know I am not the only one who checks all the model runs everyday to watch the patterns unfold and try and predict what happens next.

As well as check modis, jaxa concentration graphs, ssts, buoys, regional numerical analysis and so on.

Oh not to forget snow cover, ice albedo(modis). 


Anyways this reminds me of 2012.  There was a big vocal group who thought us doomsday folks were full of it.  Then the bottom dropped out.

This year the ice was primed by flushing not melting.  It was some very well timed flushing the ice replacing the 3-4Meter MYI is 1M or less FYI.  The Laptev is pretty much chocked with it out to 80N now.  We have a huge ass open hole of water over there and it's not been that warm.  There is a reason.

Now the ice is on the move as you all can see.  I think you can imagine the open water about to open up as the ice pinwheels around the ESS but doesn't get pressed back into the Laptev while large parts of the Beaufort all the way around the coast is about to quickly open up.

Oh and look at the Hudson there is nearly no open water.  Finally today some is appearing by Churchhill.

Look at that weak Kara and Barents ice.  Yeah it's trash.  The ice is all trash.  The 5 year old ice in the Beaufort is under 2 meters thick in spots.  you know what that is?

Look down the North Atlantic.  That is some heavy real estate down there.  That ice is still funneling all the way to 55N.  It's toast it's almost transparent all over and now it's getting torched as of right now.  :)

We are 400K+ above 2010 in the Barents/STLSEAWAY and 200K above it in the Beaufort. 

That ice is not only guaranteed to melt it's going to vanish rapidly while the dipole/ridging rages in the basin = plummet.


The end of line.


The only positive is higher than normal snow cover.  But what will that do when it gets belted by the sun every day from now till whenever the ridging stops?  How much water should we gather is going to be trapped on top of the ice gathering precious heat crushing the albedo.  How big will those melt ponds be around large ridges and wet snow banks? 

Are we going to see some mini melt lakes on larger floes this year in the Beaufort where the snow is up to 1M thick in spots still?  Holy crap that is a ton of water that has to go "threw" or "around" the ice below when it's warm enuf to melt the ice as a great transmitter of energy.









I guarantee the topic within 3 days will be the huge drops on CT and Jaxa.

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #886 on: June 01, 2014, 03:59:47 AM »
Hudson Bay is feeling the heat this weekend. Climate Reanalyzer is showing above zero temperatures over the whole bay even through the night until late Sunday. On MODIS it has turned blue.

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #887 on: June 01, 2014, 04:20:41 AM »
I appreciate the posturing about the weather 10 days in advance.  I might only understand half of what is said - but half is still better than none. 
Open other end.

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #888 on: June 01, 2014, 04:36:40 AM »
What is happening on the ice when it turns blue in MODIS images?

My totally uneducated guess is that the blue color indicates that the snow on top the ice has melted but the ice itself is still intact. In the next stage the ice typically turns gray which I interpret as a sign that the crystal structure of the ice is starting to break down. But this is a pure guess. Does anybody have more concrete knowledge?

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #889 on: June 01, 2014, 05:23:07 AM »
It has begun.

Jaxa dropped -85,000K on day one.

Only going to get worse from here.

I got a nickname for all my guns
a Desert Eagle that I call Big Pun
a two shot that I call Tupac
and a dirty pistol that love to crew hop
my TEC 9 Imma call T-Pain
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it go e-e-e-e-ow e-e-e-e-e-e-blaow

Csnavywx

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #890 on: June 01, 2014, 07:38:22 AM »
What is happening on the ice when it turns blue in MODIS images?

My totally uneducated guess is that the blue color indicates that the snow on top the ice has melted but the ice itself is still intact. In the next stage the ice typically turns gray which I interpret as a sign that the crystal structure of the ice is starting to break down. But this is a pure guess. Does anybody have more concrete knowledge?

The blue color is from melt ponding.

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #891 on: June 01, 2014, 08:07:33 AM »
Ok, previous discussion about open water aside, what disturbs me most right now is summarized well in this image:

http://www.iup.uni-bremen.de:8084/amsr2/arctic_AMSR2_nic.png

In the quadrant between 80 N and 85N , between 150E and 165E, is an area of ice which is showing closer to 30% open water.

Considering that nothing lke that started showing up for closer to 30 days last year or the year before, I find that a bit disturbing.

I find that disturbing for two reasons.  First, I've found the DMI over all in two years of my following it, has tended to be more rather than less reliable. Second, it suggests profoundly unpleasant conclusions as to the state of the ice currently.

Add that to the various weather projections which have been getting discussed over the last week or so, it leads me to very pessimistic conclusions.
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seattlerocks

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #892 on: June 01, 2014, 08:45:38 AM »
Friv, two thumbs up. I didn't follow this in 2012, but I give you credit in that in 2013 you were trying to cool things down when many of us were hyped by the fragility of the ice after 2012, and we were expecting ice doom regardless of weather. This is also why people are paying more attention to forecasts this year, whether admittedly or not. Now add all facts that you explained about current state of the ice. It makes sense.

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #893 on: June 01, 2014, 08:48:19 AM »
Don't let your local weather forecast get you down so much that you extrapolate it elsewhere. My local weather forecast sucks so much you won't believe it, but it's only logical as I have the Adriatic at my doorstep in the southwest, the Alps towering right to the northwest of me, and the Hungarian plains to the east. There's huge and rapid shifts between these climate zones, and I would be amazed for a weather forecast model to divine all of what's coming.

But when weather forecasts for the Arctic stay the same for a couple of days, there's a very good chance it will come about. Friv's example of GAC-2012 is very strong proof of that. I put up a blog post about the cyclone, just 1 day in advance, but in hindsight I could've done it 3 days earlier.

Quote
Does nobody have anything to say about the ACTUAL PRESENT OBSERVED FACTUAL state of the Arctic Sea Ice; SSTs, SATs; something, anything other than what YOU think the weather MAY do in a week's time?

I do, I do! I just posted ASI 2014 update 2 on the ASIB: Here comes the Sun. A couple of snippets:

Quote
It seems the high is forecasted to stay more or less in position, and even intensify. In fact, high pressure seems to take over the Arctic from all corners, Greenland, the Kara Sea, the East Siberian Sea. I can't say I have seen this often in the past 5 years.

I'm not sure what it'll do for ice transport (for that you need pressure gradients, ie winds, and there won't be much of a low pressure system in coming days), but this basically is an atmospheric set-up that is very conducive to melting, and very conducive to widespread formation of melt ponds. Though not as bad as last year, a relatively cold and cloudy May is now behind us, but maybe the first half of June can still give a boost to melt pond formation (and SIE/SIA decrease) that will keep 2014 in the running for a top 3 position at the end of the melting season.

But for that high(er) temperatures are needed as well.

(...)

Temps are relatively low in the Arctic, as can be seen on the NOAA/ESRL 1-day anomaly map:

(...)

However, according to the GFS weather model this is about to change. I've made a short animation, using images from the most excellent and visually stunning ClimateReanalyzer website (produced by the Climate Change Institute at the University of Maine), that shows the forecast for the coming 10 days:



Conclusion

If it weren't for the recent changes in atmospheric patterns and the current forecast, chances would have already been very slim that this melting season would do something à la 2012, or even 2007/2011. Because the start can potentially break the rest of the melting season. And this year's start has been pretty similar to last year's, though not as cold, cloudy, or cycloney (hey, I just invented a word).

Still, clear skies and higher temps coming to the Arctic right at the very end of the start, do not mean that 2014 will now cruise to record breaking territories either. The Arctic don't work that way. There are a lot of pieces in this puzzle, even though I'm a bit fixated on melt ponds right now. For instance, PIOMAS will update in a couple of days, and should be interesting.

As usual we keep keeping an eye on things, here and on the Forum. Put your sunglasses on.


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Yuha

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #894 on: June 01, 2014, 09:18:02 AM »
What is happening on the ice when it turns blue in MODIS images?

My totally uneducated guess is that the blue color indicates that the snow on top the ice has melted but the ice itself is still intact. In the next stage the ice typically turns gray which I interpret as a sign that the crystal structure of the ice is starting to break down. But this is a pure guess. Does anybody have more concrete knowledge?

The blue color is from melt ponding.

But melt ponds are not always blue. The blueness seems to require more specific conditions. Is it the surface shape of the ice, the internal structure of the ice, the thickness of the ice or what?

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #895 on: June 01, 2014, 09:52:34 AM »
FYI, I have put up polls for predicting the minimum: NSIDC SIE monthly/September average minimum and CT SIA daily minimum. Mind the differences before voting.
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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #896 on: June 01, 2014, 10:25:39 AM »
Chris Reynolds' analysis of the PIOMAS data for April, http://dosbat.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/piomas-april-2014-gridded-data.html, suggests that the critical thing this season will be the thickness distribution of the ice. It  appears that  there was a much smaller area of thin ice (< 1.6m)  in April but  a much  larger area of medium thickness ice (1.6 - 2.2 m) than in 2012.  Looking at his graphs it suggests that  most of the ice below this thickness will melt out  in an average season and even more if conditions favor  melt.   
The graphs suggest  that  we will see a slow start  to  reduction in extent but  a very fast  decline as the season progresses.  There is very little ice greater than 2.6 m thick which might set the limit if conditions favored melt.
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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #897 on: June 01, 2014, 10:28:58 AM »
Perhaps there's a need for "the Arctic weather forecast" separate from the larger topic of the current melt.

Bifurcation time?

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #898 on: June 01, 2014, 11:02:00 AM »
Since it's the first of a new month I was hoping to be able to bring you some new ice mass balance buoy temperature profiles by now. Unfortunately the IMB web site, including the downloadable data files, still seems to be stuck on May 29th:

http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/newdata.htm

The same seems currently to also apply to the Hamburg AMSR2 maps:

ftp://ftp-projects.zmaw.de/seaice/AMSR2/3.125km/
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Lord M Vader

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Re: The 2014 Melting Season
« Reply #899 on: June 01, 2014, 12:34:32 PM »
During a normal melt season, how much of the ice melts out due to its thickness in the "real" Arctic aside from the shorelines? --> Is it possible to see 3-4 m thick ice melt out completely during the season? What is the confidence interval? If it's in the range 1,5-3,0 m we could make a rough estimate of which areas that will melt out. Ice less than 1 m thickness we will guaranteed see to be gone by september. Your ideas?:)

One more thing is how the ice in ESS have holding its own against melting despite its low thickness there. Should change if the high pressure dome grows to full strength next week.

About the SIE according to JAXA we should reach next threshold in the end of next week if not sooner. The earliest day is June 3 in 2011 when the SIE went below 11 Mn km2. One interesting notice is that June 2010 is the only year with a SIE below 9 Mn km2 by the end of the month. --> it's possible to see 2,3 Mn km2 sea ice melt out during this month.

Other years from 2003 and forward:

June 2003: 1,7 Mn km2
June 2004: 1,25 Mn km2
June 2005: 1,7 Mn km2
june 2006: 1,9 Mn km2
June 2007: 2,0 Mn km2
June 2008: 1,8 Mn km2
June 2009: 1,7 Mn km2
June 2010: 2,25 Mn km2
June 2011: 2,0 Mn km2
June 2012: 2,4 Mn km2
June 2013: 2,0 Mn km2

Given this stats I think it's fair to expect a ice loss of about 2 Mn km2 this month with an interval of 1,7-2,4 Mn km2. Such an extremely low June melt as of 2004 seems extremely unlikely. It's also interesting to see that even in 2013 the ice loss was 2,0 Mn km2. If the aforemented HP dome comes true and persists I won't be surprised if we end up in the higher end of the range.

If todays SIE according to JAXA will be 11,30 Mn km2 I think it's quite likely that June 30 will be in the range of 8,9-9,3 Mn km2 depending of the weather pattern.

The average numbers for 1980-1989, 1990-1999 and 2000-2009 are

1980's: 1,25 Mn km2
1990's: 1,5 Mn km2
2000's:  1,7 Mn km2

The average number for 2010-2013 are even higher and is right now -2,15 Mn km2.

Later, I will look at the numbers for July and August... Will be interesting!!

Now, "Let's get this show on the road!  8)