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Bob Wallace

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #200 on: December 24, 2017, 10:38:59 PM »
There is nothing on the page you linked that tells us how panels would perform under frequent loading.  All that was tested is the glass and it's not clear how that was done. 

Quote
Glass samples were also sent off too another civil engineering university for load testing and impact resistance testing.

And look carefully at what you posted -

Quote
November, 2015 – Solar Roadways Incorporated is awarded a Phase IIB SBIR (Small Business Innovative Research) contract by the U.S. Department of Transportation. The 2-year $750,000 Phase IIB contract includes additional civil engineering tests including:

Freeze/Thaw Cycling: Panels will be placed in an environmental chamber and exposed to extreme temperatures to make sure the mechanical/electrical systems hold up.

Moisture Conditioning: Additional environmental chamber testing. This time, the panels will be frozen into a block of ice and then thawed – many times.

Shear Testing: Panels will be subjected to high shear forces to simulate heavy vehicles braking.

Advanced Loading: Will simulate years of truck abuse in a matter of months.

None of those tests are listed as passed. 

Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #201 on: December 25, 2017, 11:28:12 AM »
Another good overview of why Solar Roadways is simply NOT working :
...

Had to scan through most of this; couldn’t stand listening to his whiny, petulant toddler tone — which by itself reduces any believability to near zero.

Sure. If you don't like the message, you can always attack the messenger.

Quote
We covered the Sandpoint installation difficulties upthread.  If all inventors gave up after a failure the way “Dave?” suggests, we’d still be living in caves and using candles!  Learn from mistakes and carry on!

Sigmetnow, the problems with Solar Roadways are much more substantial than just a "learn from mistakes and carry on". For starters, its prototype failed on ALL relevant issues, and never produced a single Wh of electricity. And even if it would pass ALL relevant issues, there is still a minimum of 6X cost disadvantage w.r.t. standard rooftop solar (and that is being VERY optimistic).

There are some ideas that are good, and some that are bad.
Check out Juicero. I think we can all agree that was an epic fail. And with a bit of reason and engineering skill you could see it coming.
We used to call these guys "snake oil salesmen".
Solar Roadways is in that same category.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2017, 11:55:06 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #202 on: December 25, 2017, 04:09:44 PM »

None of those tests are listed as passed.

None are listed as failed, either! NO results are posted.  But you assume failure.  Got it.
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gerontocrat

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #203 on: December 25, 2017, 04:26:29 PM »
I would not be surprised if the engineering problems with solar roads will be fixed. But why bother ? What problem will they solve ?
 
Existing wind and solar  and battery installation methodologies, especially given expected improvements in efficiency and cost per unit of energy already in the pipeline  can and need to be rolled out asap.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #204 on: December 25, 2017, 04:30:56 PM »
I would not be surprised if the engineering problems with solar roads will be fixed. But why bother ? What problem will they solve ?
 
Existing wind and solar  and battery installation methodologies, especially given expected improvements in efficiency and cost per unit of energy already in the pipeline  can and need to be rolled out asap.

Because the main objective is to improve roads.  Generating power for externalities is a secondary benefit.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #205 on: December 25, 2017, 04:39:37 PM »
...

Sure. If you don't like the message, you can always attack the messenger.

That video is a biased, petulant rant, created solely for entertainment purposes, internet clicks and views.  If you like that sort of thing, then by all means, enjoy the “feels”… but nothing in it proves that the solar roadways concept will never work. 
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #206 on: December 25, 2017, 07:15:59 PM »

None of those tests are listed as passed.

None are listed as failed, either! NO results are posted.  But you assume failure.  Got it.

I am not assuming any tests passed.

I am not assuming any tests failed.

I am highly skeptical that this overall idea has merit.  But I will form my opinion based on data when it is furnished.


Bob Wallace

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #207 on: December 25, 2017, 07:30:48 PM »
Quote
Because the main objective is to improve roads.  Generating power for externalities is a secondary benefit.

OK, let's see if we can come up with a better idea.

Put the panels over buildings, parking lots, or low value land.  Get a lot more electricity per dollar.

Put a few LED signs where they are actually needed.  They really aren't needed in very many places.  "Chains required on 36" is one I see.  I also see temporary signs towed in as needed.  "Roadwork ahead.  Expect delays."  "Road closed.  Forest fire."

As we move to self-driving cars these sorts of signs are needed less.  Just make announcements to passengers on the vehicle's screen or audio system.

Embed heating cables where it makes sense to melt snow.  I suspect some companies are melting their parking lots and sidewalks in order to avoid being sued when someone slips and falls.  Plow and cinder the roads.

Investigate if there might be a glass product that could serve as a top layer for asphalt/concrete roads which might extend their lives enough to cover the additional cost. 

Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #208 on: December 25, 2017, 08:02:09 PM »
Bob,
All your recommendations sound quite doable, if not particularly innovative. ;)

But the U.S. Department of Transportation asked for Something Completely Different:
Quote
In 2009, we solicited research on a topic sponsored by the Federal Highway Administration (FHWA): To develop a new pavement that could generate power and transfer it to the power grid. The SBIR Phase I submission had to meet the following requirements:

Use recycled material;
Withstand traffic loads; and
Be durable enough to avoid costly replacement cycles.
...

They were quite pleased with the Brusaw’s Solar Roadway initial attempts, and funded them to continue development of the product.  More here:  https://www.volpe.dot.gov/news/new-pavement-system-supported-by-solar-panels
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #209 on: December 25, 2017, 08:15:11 PM »

I am not assuming any tests passed.

I am not assuming any tests failed.

I am highly skeptical that this overall idea has merit.  But I will form my opinion based on data when it is furnished.

Just for comparative purposes, then :), here was my reaction to the listed tests:
“I can’t wait to see the new improved SR4 panels, and learn how they addressed any deficiencies that were revealed by this very aggressive testing!”
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #210 on: December 25, 2017, 08:28:28 PM »
Quote
All your recommendations sound quite doable, if not particularly innovative.

Have you ever tried to do any work with a Swiss Army Knife, Leatherman or some sort of multipurpose shop tool like the Shopsmith? 

They're innovative.  In a pinch they work.  But they simply work far poorer than dedicated tools. 

TerryM

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #211 on: December 25, 2017, 09:43:05 PM »
Is anyone aware of instances where glass surfaces have been successfully used as paving?


I believe one or more Casino in Las Vegas has lighted glass blocks at covered VIP entrances where limo's are allowed to drive. I know that in the 70's or 80's glass or porcelain tiles were used for about a year at major crosswalks on Fremont street. They were pulled because they proved too slippery during the infrequent rains.


Since a transparent overlay is required for this system to work, I thought exploring this aspect might be useful.


Terry

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #212 on: December 25, 2017, 10:56:05 PM »
amazed that this idea .. or page have any life .. a waste of energy and effort .. bc
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sidd

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #213 on: December 26, 2017, 02:47:41 AM »
"Is anyone aware of instances where glass surfaces have been successfully used as paving?"

Some in new york and tokyo that i have seen with LED displays. foot and light traffic, on the sidewalk.

sidd

Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #214 on: December 26, 2017, 10:05:58 AM »
There is a bridge made of glass :

https://museumofglass.org/outdoor-art/chihuly-bridge-of-glass

It's very pretty, and it's for pedestrians only.

But if you want to drive 18 wheelers over it, glass is terrible.
Glass is a very poor road building material. It is too soft and too brittle.
Asphalt is pretty much ideal.
Going to be hard to beat that.

[edit] Just read somewhere that the Chihuly Bridge of Glass is not made of glass - it's made of concrete!
« Last Edit: December 26, 2017, 10:29:39 AM by Rob Dekker »
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crandles

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #215 on: December 26, 2017, 02:57:58 PM »

But if you want to drive 18 wheelers over it, glass is terrible.
Glass is a very poor road building material. It is too soft and too brittle.
Asphalt is pretty much ideal.

Glass is much much harder than asphalt. Glass may be poor for being too brittle, or not bendable enough or too hard but not for being too soft.

(Ashalt 1-2 on Mohs scale
Glass 4.5-6.5 on Mohs scale
Mohs scale may not be ideal but glass is clearly and obviously harder so why are you saying it is too soft? Asphalt ideal? Don't potholes indicate it is too soft?)

Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #216 on: December 26, 2017, 09:36:00 PM »
From the SR website:

“Glass samples were also sent off too another civil engineering university for load testing and impact resistance testing. The load testing showed that a pavement made of our SR Panels could withstand a static load of 250,000 pounds. To put that in perspective, the national weight limit for semi-trucks is 80,000 pounds. So the test results indicated that SR Panels can withstand more than three times the legal load of fully-loaded semi-trucks. These results were incredible but needed to be reconfirmed, so we were asked to perform a 3D Finite Element Method analysis (computer simulation) at a different civil engineering university. The results came back the same: 250,000 pounds.”

Notice the raised pattern in the SR glass below, akin to textured concrete, which prevents slippage and hydroplaning due to water on the driving surface.  Scott Brusaw has said his original glass provided so much friction, highway experts told him to dial it back. :)
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #217 on: December 26, 2017, 09:51:52 PM »
From the SR website:

“Glass samples were also sent off too another civil engineering university for load testing and impact resistance testing. The load testing showed that a pavement made of our SR Panels could withstand a static load of 250,000 pounds. To put that in perspective, the national weight limit for semi-trucks is 80,000 pounds. So the test results indicated that SR Panels can withstand more than three times the legal load of fully-loaded semi-trucks. These results were incredible but needed to be reconfirmed, so we were asked to perform a 3D Finite Element Method analysis (computer simulation) at a different civil engineering university. The results came back the same: 250,000 pounds.”

Notice the raised pattern in the SR glass below, akin to textured concrete, which prevents slippage and hydroplaning due to water on the driving surface.  Scott Brusaw has said his original glass provided so much friction, highway experts told him to dial it back. :)

I have questions about tire wear and noise with a texture like that.


Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #218 on: December 26, 2017, 10:16:56 PM »
...
I have questions about tire wear and noise with a texture like that.

I imagine that’s why they were told to dial it back.  ;)
The trick is to find the sweet spot between too smooth and slippery versus too rough and noisy.  Although rough/noisy pavement near the road-edge is used today as a good thing, to warn inattentive drivers when they are leaving the lane.  But I like the idea of a surface that promotes water to drain off the driving surface, especially one as non-absorbent as glass, to prevent hydroplaning.
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jai mitchell

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Bob Wallace

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #220 on: December 27, 2017, 01:34:56 AM »
china has built its second solar roadway in Jinan, the top layer is made of transparent concrete.  It will soon charge wireless cars.

https://electrek.co/2017/12/21/china-solar-roadways-transparent-concrete-solar-cells-charge-cars/



https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2017/12/solar-china-freaking-roadway2.jpg?quality=82&strip=all&w=1000&h=

more here

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/infrastructure/a14479240/china-is-building-a-solar-power-highway/

How much potential electricity is lost because the panels are mounted flat?  How much energy is lost because of the not 100% transparent concrete?  How much will be lost due to road dirt?  How much will be lost by traffic shading?  How much surface degrading and output drop will be seen as vehicles grind the surface from semi-transparent to translucent?

In order to charge vehicles coils of wire would have to be added to the road.  Can those be located below the panels or would they be on top where they will further lower panel output?

It's novel.  Let's see some cost/performance data before we get excited.

South Korea built a road with embedded charging coils for buses a few years back.  That idea seems to not have taken hold. 

numerobis

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #221 on: December 27, 2017, 02:10:35 AM »
Quote
How much potential electricity is lost because the panels are mounted flat?  How much energy is lost because of the not 100% transparent concrete?  How much will be lost due to road dirt?  How much will be lost by traffic shading?  How much surface degrading and output drop will be seen as vehicles grind the surface from semi-transparent to translucent?

Your questions are ridiculous. How much potential electricity is lost because the road is paved in asphalt? *All* of it!

Cost/performance data is definitely interesting. But cells are getting pretty cheap. Let's look at places in the built environment where we can stuff them -- that will allow to us reduce the number of wild spaces we pave under solar panels.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #222 on: December 27, 2017, 02:34:14 AM »
I was responding to the comment that reports -

Quote
china has built its second solar roadway in Jinan, the top layer is made of transparent concrete

I missed the comment about solar panels installed under asphalt.  I don't see one now.  Might it have been removed?

Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #223 on: December 27, 2017, 09:13:28 AM »
Glass is much much harder than asphalt. Glass may be poor for being too brittle, or not bendable enough or too hard but not for being too soft.

(Ashalt 1-2 on Mohs scale
Glass 4.5-6.5 on Mohs scale
Mohs scale may not be ideal but glass is clearly and obviously harder so why are you saying it is too soft?

I'm sorry. I should have been clearer. Asphalt is the official name for the bitumen that exit the lowest stage of a distillation column. And you are right that is a very soft material.
However, when I talked about asphalt I meant what is officially called "asphalt concrete". That is the stuff that we use as top layer for roads around the world. It's a composite material, consisting mainly (95%) of rocks, gravel and sand, and only 5% bitumen, which holds everything together.
Asphalt concrete is harder than glass, since rocks and sand are harder than glass, as you can see in this video, at 14:15 minutes :



The bottomline is that a glass road will wear out faster than asphalt concrete, but even worse : it will scratch very easily which make it opaque and thus unsuitable as a cover for these solar cells under it. So normal wear and tear will quickly destroy the one advantage (translucency) that glass has over asphalt concrete.

Quote
Asphalt ideal? Don't potholes indicate it is too soft?

A road surface is subject to immense torture over its lifetime, so any material will eventually crack, break or wear out. For asphalt concrete that is some 5-10 years. Reinforced concrete is stronger (and a lot more expensive), and will last longer (10-20 year) but even that will start to crack and chip and break eventually. A road made of glass will certainly not last that long, with the additional disadvantage that pieces of glass all over the road, and glass dust blowing in the wind would cause additional safety and health issues.

The reason that I think asphalt concrete is (close to) ideal as road cover is not just that it's low cost and durable, easy to repair (with bitumen) and its superior braking properties, and limited glare issues, etc but also what you can do at the end of it's life :

A worn out asphalt road can easily be scraped up, heated, add some bitumen, and put it right back down as a brand new road. In fact, 99% of asphalt concrete gets recycled in that way.
Try to do that with a glass road (not even considering one with solar panels under it).
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #224 on: December 27, 2017, 09:24:24 AM »
But I like the idea of a surface that promotes water to drain off the driving surface, especially one as non-absorbent as glass, to prevent hydroplaning.

For water drainage there is something far superior to a non-absorbent surface :
It's called "very open asphalt concrete" (ZOAB in Dutch acronym) and as its name suggests, water runs right though the surface into the gravel and sand bed underneath.

You know that mist of water droplets that cars create when it rains or even if there is a thin film of water on the road ? The mist that makes it hard to see the road and the cars in front of you ?
That mist is completely gone with very open asphalt concrete.

It's been around for a while, and it works like a charm.

https://www.swov.nl/sites/default/files/publicaties/rapport/d-94-25.pdf
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #225 on: December 27, 2017, 09:53:14 AM »
china has built its second solar roadway in Jinan, the top layer is made of transparent concrete.  It will soon charge wireless cars.

Thanks Jai !
I think this Chinese effort came up earlier in this thread and it created some questions, especially questions regarding that "transparent concrete".

Using your reference I found a link with a bit more information about that stuff :

http://illumin.usc.edu/245/translucent-concrete-an-emerging-material/

There is still no information about how "translucent" that concrete really is, not how durable it is, but here are a few quotes from that article that I found interesting :

Quote
As with any new material, it is expensive and still has some issues to be resolved.

and

Quote
Engineers have come up with several potential types of mixtures for translucent concrete. One approach is to exchange the traditional ingredients with transparent or translucent alternatives. Pieces of plastic or glass can be used as aggregates, and the binding agent can be switched with a type of transparent glue [1].

and

Quote
Concrete mixtures must be just right in order to maintain structural strength. The same is true of translucent concrete. Some experimental translucent concrete mixes have failed to produce structural consistency. In Wittig’s case “lab tests showed that his panels were too fragile to withstand wind and rain

and

Quote
Translucent concrete is not currently widely produced. There are only a select few companies, and the process is somewhat low-tech and slow. It can only be produced as pre-cast or prefabricated blocks and panels; it cannot be poured on site like traditional concrete

If not poured on-site, it's not clear what kind of "transparent concrete" the Chinese are going to use for this road. And if poured on-site they would be the first in the world to do so, which raises even more questions.

And in the main article they mention :

Quote
The Jinan City solar highway is formed with three layers. The top layer is a transparent concrete that has similar structural properties with standard asphalt. The central layer is the solar panels – which are pointed out as being ‘weight bearing.’ The bottom layer is to separate the solar panels from the damp earth underneath.

Especially the bolded text raises some serious questions. Crystalline silicon solar cells are extremely brittle, and definitively cannot "bear" any "weight". Maybe something got lost in translation, and they used thin film ? That is not "weight bearing" either but if perfectly positioned between two weight bearing surfaces it's not so susceptible to breaking. If they did, the efficiency of the 'panels' will have gone down which creates an additional cost disadvantage of an already expensive solution to harvesting the sun's energy (w.r.t rooftop solar).

Combined with the questions about their "transparent concrete", the Jinan City project is interesting, but it my view raises more questions than it answers.

[edit] At least the Chinese were smart enough not to put any useless LEDs in the road as the silly guys at Solar Roadways did.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 10:42:49 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #226 on: December 28, 2017, 04:02:20 AM »
I was responding to the comment that reports -

Quote
china has built its second solar roadway in Jinan, the top layer is made of transparent concrete

I missed the comment about solar panels installed under asphalt.  I don't see one now.  Might it have been removed?

Precisely: there are no solar panels installed in a traditional road. Such a road gets zero of the potential electricity. The absolute best case for an asphalt road compared to a solar road is that both get zero output in certain conditions; in all other cases, the solar road is better.

If you want to attack solar roads, then, you need actual numbers that show that its cost/benefit is bad. Philosophy won’t show them to be unworkable on its own.

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #227 on: December 28, 2017, 04:21:43 AM »
Quote
If you want to attack solar roads, then, you need actual numbers that show that its cost/benefit is bad.

No.  When someone makes an extraordinary claim it is their responsibility to bring proof.

These people have made claims that most of us find unbelievable.  And after a considerable amount of time they have not created supporting data but continue to make their claims.

This is reminiscent of eeStor and other 'too good to be true' claims that got a lot of attention, acquired some strong supporters, but never delivered. 

Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #228 on: December 28, 2017, 06:21:23 AM »
The absolute best case for an asphalt road compared to a solar road is that both get zero output in certain conditions; in all other cases, the solar road is better.

If you want to attack solar roads, then, you need actual numbers that show that its cost/benefit is bad.

Numerobis, in a solar road, there are two purposes integrated :
- A durable, effective road surface, and
- A way to generate electricity from sunlight.

The issue is that if you integrate the two, you end up paying more (a minimum factor of 6 more) than if you would build them separate. The main cost in solar roads is not the solar cells. It's the load bearing top layer that now need to be BOTH durable AND transparent to light. There simply does not exist a material yet that has both properties and is also low enough in cost to compete with separate systems.

If you take them separate, there are many more options, most of which don't require any new space.

For example, you can build solar system between the lanes of a freeway, as they did in Korea :



or you can build solar panels over parking lots :



or even plain old residential/commercial rooftop solar.

So you should compare cost of turning roads into solar roads to cost of installing other solar applications that also don't require new space.

Does that make sense ?
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 06:46:28 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #229 on: December 28, 2017, 08:12:35 AM »
If you want to attack solar roads, then, you need actual numbers that show that its cost/benefit is bad. Philosophy won’t show them to be unworkable on its own.

Plenty of numbers have been presented in this thread, and they all show that solar roadways have a terrible cost/benefit tradeoff :

Here are the findings of hard data so far :

- Solar Roadways is the worst : their prototype never created ANY solar power, and their useless LEDs consumed so much power from the grid that the heat melted snow. Even by your metric (energy balance w.r.t. asphalt) Solar Roadways scores negative points, and was an epic failure. 3.9 million dollars wasted.

- A bit better is that cycling path in the Netherlands. They invested 3 million EURO for a system that powers 2 homes. That's 1.5 million EURO per home, thank you very much. For the same 3 million EURO they could have installed rooftop solar on about 1000 homes, providing power to 1000 homes instead of 2, which suggests this system is 500X or so more expensive than rooftop solar.

- The best system around is the French system with their polymer solar panels that get glued to the road. That system costs 6 EURO/Watt for half the production (a 12X cost disadvantage) compared to rooftop solar, but the manufacturer expects the price to come down by a factor of 2 in volume, which would give us a factor 6X cost disadvantage over rooftop solar.
No data on the durability of the French polymer solution as a road top.
My gut feeling is that 18 wheelers will grind this surface to shreds within a year.

- No data on the Chinese system. At all. No cost, no technical details, nothing.

That's all the hard data we have for now, and it does not look good for solar roads.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #230 on: December 28, 2017, 08:44:27 AM »
Apart from the technical data working out against solar roadways, there is a bigger risk.
The promises of companies like Solar Roadways can backfire tremendously publicly.

Once presented expectations (like Solar Roadways) are not met, the public can easily be persuaded to discard ANY scientific endeavor away from fossil fuels. Remember how the right-wing press publicly emphasized the Solyndra fiasco so as to degrade trust in alternative energy in general ?
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 08:56:55 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #231 on: January 07, 2018, 04:48:01 AM »
OK. So we have actual data on that French solar roadway. Remember that this is by far the most cost effective solar roadway in the world, by at least an order of magnitude.

Initial estimates were 6X the cost at half the production (a 12X cost disadvantage) compared to rooftop solar.

Now Dave @ EEVblog compares that estimate to actual test data from the past 12 months after installation of this French system.



The results are in : 1/3 the production at 9X the cost. A 27X cost disadvantage compared to rooftop solar.

QED.

[edit] For ANY other idea, this would be the end of it.
But somehow I think this solar roadway idea will keep on sticking up its expensive head up again and again.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 05:02:34 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #232 on: January 07, 2018, 05:59:50 AM »
Quote
For ANY other idea, this would be the end of it.

Oh, no.  There is the never ending stream of new small vertical axis wind turbine ideas.  Another bastion of true believers.
--

One thing he left out, which wouldn't make anything like enough difference, is land cost.  Look for one of the believers to argue that solar roads make sense because the space is free. 

The counter:  The French eat rabbit.  Install the panels over rabbit pasture.  (Or sheep pasture in the UK.)  Meat production will furnish free land. 

BTW, installed single-axis tracking solar is now about $1.08/watt in the US.  Roughly 2/3rds his example cost.

Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #233 on: January 08, 2018, 07:06:35 AM »
One thing he left out, which wouldn't make anything like enough difference, is land cost.  Look for one of the believers to argue that solar roads make sense because the space is free. 

The argument of roads being 'free space' is a false claim, since the comparison that Dave made was with rooftop solar. And for any rooftop solar (residential or commercial) the 'space' is also free. As it is for solar over parking lots and between freeway lanes and over rabbit pastures  ;)

Meanwhile at the Solar Roadways company's prototype, things have gotten so bad that we can now just LOL about it. Here it is, just for the fun of it :

« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 07:25:54 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #234 on: January 08, 2018, 08:38:42 AM »
One comparison was with single-axis tracking. 

Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #235 on: January 08, 2018, 05:56:40 PM »
If only there were a tough, recyclable, easily-repairable, environmentally-friendly and less-GHG-emissions road surface that would not melt in the summer heat.

IT'S SO HOT IN AUSTRALIA ROADS ARE MELTING UNDER 'BLAST FURNACE' HEAT
http://www.newsweek.com/its-so-hot-australia-roads-are-melting-under-blast-furnace-heat-772934


And that could prevent icy crashes without road salt pollution.

2 truckers killed in fiery Hwy. 20 head-on crash
http://www.ktvz.com/news/2-die-in-icy-hwy-20-semi-head-on-crash/679384735
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #236 on: January 08, 2018, 07:04:30 PM »
If only there were a tough, recyclable, easily-repairable, environmentally-friendly and less-GHG-emissions road surface that would not melt in the summer heat.

IT'S SO HOT IN AUSTRALIA ROADS ARE MELTING UNDER 'BLAST FURNACE' HEAT
http://www.newsweek.com/its-so-hot-australia-roads-are-melting-under-blast-furnace-heat-772934


And that could prevent icy crashes without road salt pollution.

2 truckers killed in fiery Hwy. 20 head-on crash
http://www.ktvz.com/news/2-die-in-icy-hwy-20-semi-head-on-crash/679384735

OK, if you want to consider covering roads with a surface that wears better than asphalt and costs less than concrete that would be worth some investigation.

But can we forget about putting solar panels on roads?  Math says don't.

(Did you watch the video that shows the Solar Roadways people shoveling the snow off the top of their LED panels and then taking a picture showing how well they work at melting snow?)

gerontocrat

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #237 on: January 08, 2018, 07:21:08 PM »
If only there were a tough, recyclable, easily-repairable, environmentally-friendly and less-GHG-emissions road surface that would not melt in the summer heat.

IT'S SO HOT IN AUSTRALIA ROADS ARE MELTING UNDER 'BLAST FURNACE' HEAT
http://www.newsweek.com/its-so-hot-australia-roads-are-melting-under-blast-furnace-heat-772934


Totally off-topic but here is a different answer.

Many, many years ago, when Guinea-Bissau, West Africa, was a poverty-stricken province of Portugal, the local Governor was fed-up with touring in a horse-drawn carriage in the hot dry season along the dry and dusty dirt roads.

So, instead of demanding cash in tax collections from the villages along the route, he made them plant trees - mango trees. In the 1980's, when I was there, there were kilometre after kilometre of magnificent, and I mean magnificent, mango trees along some of the roads. Shade during the hot season, and greatly reduced erosion during the wet, and gorgeous mangoes for free when in season.

I kid you not, it is a true story. Technology is not always the answer.
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #238 on: January 08, 2018, 08:23:04 PM »
Quote
Technology is not always the answer.

In this  case geoengineering solved the problem....     ;D

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #239 on: January 09, 2018, 08:40:06 AM »
Meanwhile at the Solar Roadways company's prototype, things have gotten so bad that we can now just LOL about it. Here it is, just for the fun of it :
Loved that one.  :)
Re nordic nations, Island is one thing. There are some spots in southern Sweden were we can get ~80°C, if we drill 2km down... To complete the misery I'll add yesterdays output from one of my setups. It's 3040W (Pmax) worth of panels. Right now my ECU is presenting the standard wintertime message:
Quote
Suggestion:

1.Verify that the ECU has power

2.Verify that the ECU is connected to the local network

3.Verify that the LAN is working
No sunlight available is obviously not a likely suggestion. :)
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #240 on: January 09, 2018, 09:30:37 AM »
(Did you watch the video that shows the Solar Roadways people shoveling the snow off the top of their LED panels and then taking a picture showing how well they work at melting snow?)

LOL. Here is that selfie they took after they shoveled the snow :

http://www.thepictaram.club/instagram/official_solar_roadways



With the text :
Quote
We have been absolutely slammed with snow here in North Idaho over the past few weeks. This pic was taken after over a foot of snow fell in one day. The heating elements didnt quite keep up with that extreme but pretty close! #solarroadways

Apart from the picture showing that half of their panels failed, the claim that the panels were "pretty close" in melting snow is arguably fraudulent, since they just shoveled it..
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 10:01:10 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #241 on: January 09, 2018, 09:39:05 AM »
No sunlight available is obviously not a likely suggestion. :)

Thanks Sleepy. My system also produced only 1 kWh today, and I'm living in Northern California.

It is clear that we need a lot more than solar to get us through winter with renewable energy. Geothermal and wind come to mind. Or seasonal energy storage.
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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #242 on: January 09, 2018, 10:00:25 AM »
0.3kWh over a day is nothing to write home about. Here's one of my older ideas that will never be:
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1145.msg85314.html#msg85314
I think that would work very well but it requires some work... The months surrounding the winter solstice are really, really bad for solar here.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #243 on: January 09, 2018, 10:10:57 AM »
Sleepy, I think by the time we can cover electricity usage in summer 100% with solar, we can start to worry about winter time coverage.
Right now, even here in California we are only covering 25% or so of summer time energy usage with solar.
So no need to worry just yet.
And we still have geothermal, wind, and hydro (especially in the wet winter season) which could provide enough energy to get us through winter.
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Sleepy

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #244 on: January 09, 2018, 10:27:39 AM »
I understand Rob, I'm talking from a personal perspective (DIY) and constantly worry about how to lower my electricity bill. Even though the electricity I buy is produced by wind.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #245 on: January 09, 2018, 06:10:27 PM »

With the text :
Quote
We have been absolutely slammed with snow here in North Idaho over the past few weeks. This pic was taken after over a foot of snow fell in one day. The heating elements didnt quite keep up with that extreme but pretty close! #solarroadways

Apart from the picture showing that half of their panels failed, the claim that the panels were "pretty close" in melting snow is arguably fraudulent, since they just shoveled it..

Look again.  The shoveled area is completely separate from the area with the panels.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #246 on: January 09, 2018, 06:29:15 PM »

With the text :
Quote
We have been absolutely slammed with snow here in North Idaho over the past few weeks. This pic was taken after over a foot of snow fell in one day. The heating elements didnt quite keep up with that extreme but pretty close! #solarroadways

Apart from the picture showing that half of their panels failed, the claim that the panels were "pretty close" in melting snow is arguably fraudulent, since they just shoveled it..

Look again.  The shoveled area is completely separate from the area with the panels.

Watch the video. 



There does seem to be some melting over part of the area but there is still snow over the panels.

About three minutes in you can clearly see two people shoveling snow off the test patch at night.  And right afterwards they take a picture of the panels now cleared of snow.

Assuming that the people shoveling are the ones who are running the project then we know that we can trust nothing they say.  They've totally lost credibility.

And, as Rob pointed out, about half the panel LEDs have failed.  In an instillation that's never felt  a car wheel and after only a  few weeks in operation.

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #247 on: January 09, 2018, 06:52:05 PM »
Looking at the time stamps this first picture is from December.

12/30/2017 11:35



The driveway and walk seem to have been scraped.  There is some melting over the panels.

These pictures are from January.

1/4/2018 20:15  About 20 seconds apart.






There are two people shoveling snow off the array.  Note how the road, driveway, and sidewalk are free from snow.  Apparently they were scraped earlier in the day and the Sun has melted any remaining snow.  The panels needed shoveling hours after scraped areas were devoid of snow.



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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #248 on: January 09, 2018, 09:13:58 PM »
let's say it's a indeed a fail while there can still be benefits with the idea in specific cases even though perhaps not snowy winter conditions, i can't see any benefit to ridicule and make fun of
any idea that in itself points into the right direction, better provide alternatives or any other kind of productive criticism. ridicule is not a qualified approach to bring things forward and deal with innovations even once they show flaws. it's discouraging and keeps others from going public with initially flawed but ultimately targetleading ideas.

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #249 on: January 09, 2018, 09:49:36 PM »
let's say it's a indeed a fail while there can still be benefits ... i can't see any benefit to ridicule
I'm with you on this one, magnamentis.

I once did a lecture on the value of pure science to a bunch of people who couldn't see further than "return on capital employed". The examples I used were lasers and optical fibre.

For many years the only uses of lasers were to pop a balloon inside another balloon and for Bond movies, and for optical fibre those silly lamps.

Now can we think of modern life without them?

Who knows whether one of the new materials being developed for solar roadways will become a major industry staple?
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
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