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Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #250 on: January 09, 2018, 10:08:27 PM »
Indeed.  As they said, the panels couldn’t keep up with a foot of snow, but it did melt most of it.  Their photo was not taken right after they shoveled everything clear, since there is still half-melted snow on top of some of the panels.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 10:16:55 PM by Sigmetnow »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #251 on: January 10, 2018, 04:07:49 AM »
Sigmetnow, I think you have a point.

On second look it looks like the picture was taken (just?) before they shoveled the snow off the remaining panels that were still covered.

If that's true, then it took 4 or 5 days of heating, but their 'snow melting' feature kind of worked.
I wonder how many kWh they spent...
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #252 on: January 10, 2018, 04:23:06 AM »
Just when we thought we solved the timing of that picture, Solar Roadways officially weighs in about it :

https://www.instagram.com/p/BdgVO_cnOKe/?taken-by=official_solar_roadways

Quote
lordmmxand then, there is a photo from webcam of you shoveling snow out from it before you took photo of it :)

official_solar_roadways@lordmmx That is false. This is an image with snow ON the panels and taken a different week from when Scott shoveled snow from some panels which had quit working. He did that to diagnose their problem with a thermal imager so he could fix it.

Mmm. That's just a very confusing answer. A 'different week' ? Which week ? And if it was a different week why did they post the picture on the same day that were shoveling the snow ?
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 05:24:57 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #253 on: January 10, 2018, 04:35:05 AM »
0.3kWh over a day is nothing to write home about.

You are still producing more than 10 times than Solar Roadways :
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/pv/public_systems/V3vh1173801/overview

Total production of their system today was 0.02 kWh.
One fifth of a penny worth of electricity per day.
Installation costs for this system was $ 60,000.-
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #254 on: January 10, 2018, 09:01:18 AM »
Nice job, Sleepy ! For cost that is $ 1.11 / Wpeak. That is competitive with large scale commercial solar.

My own system is comparable in size, and cost me $ 7,000.- installed. That's some $2/Watt which works out for me to about $0.10/kWh (I'm in California). Luckily I had net-metering which REALLY helps to even out the ups-and-downs inherent to solar over the day and the year.

If you can lobby your local utility company, tell them to go with net-metering. It's not just good for you, but also good for them, since they will get reduced load when they need it most, and reduced cost of losses, since you are producing locally. Or else, have you considered a battery (like SolarWall) ?

Either way, compared the Solar Roadways we are both winners :

My system today produced 2 kWh (still somewhat cloudy day) which is 100X what Solar Roadways produced. In June/July, Solar Roadways produced about 1 kWh/day while my system cranked out 17 kWh/day. 17X the production for 1/10th the cost : a 170X cost advantage of rooftop solar against Solar Roadways.

And I don't waste energy with LEDs in my panels.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 09:16:36 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #255 on: January 10, 2018, 09:34:59 AM »
We have some data on the Chinese system :

https://www.energymatters.com.au/renewable-news/chinas-innovative-solar-highway/

Remember that that French system was expected to generate 82 kWh/m^2/year (see Dave's video) ? In actuality (after a year of data) it came in quite a bit lower than that, but let us ignore that for now.

Let me tell you up-front that both the French and the Chinese systems are serious and professional. A far cry from that Solar Roadway joke with their useless LEDs and their hype about snow melting and 'intelligent' panel BS. So back to business :

The Chinese system looks very similar to the French system in that they both have a top-cover that is partially transparent, but yet somewhat 'white' suggesting that a fair amount of light actually gets reflected back to the sky. Either way, by the looks of it, we would expect the French and the Chinese systems to have comparable efficiencies.

Here is the relevant sections of what to expect from the Jinan system (from the article) :

Quote
The 5,875 square metres of highway in Jinan....
...
It can generate 1 million kWH of electricity in one year,....

See. We don't need much. Just the basic data.
1 million kWh over 5,875 square meters of panels is 170 kWh/m^2/year.
That is more than TWICE the production of the French system, and I bet you my bottom dollar that they are talking BS.

Since Jinan is a bit closer to the equator than France is, a quick calculation suggests that we could expect up to a 25% increase in production if you are very generous with the numbers. A 100% increase is impossible. Not in their wildest dreams are they going to get 1 million kWh out of that system in the first year. They should be happy if they get half.

Let me leave it at that for now before we go to cost.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 09:58:48 AM by Rob Dekker »
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wili

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #256 on: January 11, 2018, 05:45:35 AM »
Daylight robbery: thieves steal chunk of China's new solar highway

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/09/china-solar-highway-thieves-steal-panels
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Sleepy

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #257 on: January 11, 2018, 08:41:50 AM »
Thieves has obviously not followed this thread.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #258 on: January 12, 2018, 09:59:58 PM »
Thieves has obviously not followed this thread.

 LOL! ;D
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #259 on: January 13, 2018, 05:12:39 AM »
From the SR Facebook page today:

Quote
Solar Roadways Update:
We just returned from a wonderful trip to Texas for meetings late Tuesday night. We are so excited to have so many wonderful interested customers.

In spite of getting hit by a lot of snow again this week, the panels are keeping up quite well. After Christmas, one day we noticed a problem with some panels not keeping up. We shoveled them to use a thermal imager to diagnose and fix the problem. It turned out to be some loose connections in the electrical closet. We are collecting data and making adjustments to the temperature profile, which is really helping us in designing SR4, which will be the model first offered to customers. We want to keep the heating elements at the lowest setting that will keep the panels clear. When we really get clobbered, like one day recently when we got a foot of snow in one day, they can’t quite keep up in real time but they recover in short order. Overall, we are pleased but will keep fine tuning over the winter.

Scott needs some very specific engineering help in designing SR4. If this is you or someone you know, he would love to hear from you:
Embedded Systems Programmer
Experience needed:
Atmel AVR - we're currently using the ATmega256RFR2
Atmel Studio 7
AVR/GNU C
OTAU - experience required
WDT, TWI, SPI, ADC, RF network, external memory access
Our testing software is in Delphi (RAD Studio 10). Knowledge of this would be helpful, but not necessary.
...
https://www.facebook.com/solarroadways/posts/10154852608712126
Photos at the link.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #260 on: January 13, 2018, 05:47:00 AM »
From the SR Facebook page today:

Quote
Solar Roadways Update:
We just returned from a wonderful trip to Texas for meetings late Tuesday night. We are so excited to have so many wonderful interested customers.

In spite of getting hit by a lot of snow again this week, the panels are keeping up quite well. After Christmas, one day we noticed a problem with some panels not keeping up. We shoveled them to use a thermal imager to diagnose and fix the problem. It turned out to be some loose connections in the electrical closet. We are collecting data and making adjustments to the temperature profile, which is really helping us in designing SR4, which will be the model first offered to customers. We want to keep the heating elements at the lowest setting that will keep the panels clear. When we really get clobbered, like one day recently when we got a foot of snow in one day, they can’t quite keep up in real time but they recover in short order. Overall, we are pleased but will keep fine tuning over the winter.

Accidentally, I was watching their webcam yesterday, and took a screenshot of them working at the panel.

« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 05:55:04 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #261 on: January 13, 2018, 05:52:43 AM »
Looking at their webcam :
http://www.cityofsandpoint.com/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways#ad-image-3

it still seems that 5 panels are still broken (3 are dead and 2 are half-dead). Not sure what they fixed.

Remember that their system generates less than a penny per day in electricity, and uses much more than that, for a $ 60,000 investment.

For a system that promises to change the world, I am still very much unimpressed.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 06:29:28 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #262 on: January 13, 2018, 06:11:34 AM »
Solar Roadways convinced the City of Baltimore to install 36 panels :

http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2017/12/18/solar-sidewalk/

"and not just lightless boring solar panels, smart, interlocking, hexagonal, microprocessing solar units"

Quote
The Abell Foundation donated $100,000 to the project. Installation is expected to begin in the spring.

Another $100,000 down the drain.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #263 on: January 13, 2018, 07:20:37 AM »
WDT, TWI, SPI, ADC, RF network, external memory access

Solar Roadways now going wireless through Bluetooth ?
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Sleepy

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #264 on: January 13, 2018, 08:24:04 AM »
Had a peek at their webcam, these are way cooler if you want to light up your home. Only $ 19.99 at Amazon.

« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 10:03:05 AM by Sleepy »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #265 on: January 15, 2018, 04:10:44 AM »
I want to take a first stab at 'cost' of that Jinan solar roadway.
From the original link I posted before :

https://www.energymatters.com.au/renewable-news/chinas-innovative-solar-highway/

we find :

Quote
The transportation engineering expert from China’s Tongji University told CCTV the road cost around 3,000 yuan (US $458) per square metre to build. This is significantly higher than the cost of constructing regular roads and highways.

To be fair, we would need to subtract the cost of what a normal road would cost from the cost of this combined (solar and road) system. I found another link with more info :

http://www.slate.com/health-and-science/2018/01/did-ryan-zinke-give-florida-an-offshore-drilling-exemption-because-of-mar-a-lago.html

Quote
Let’s start with cost. The road costs about $458 per square meter—far pricier than the $5 per square meter it costs to create an asphalt road.

So there we go : A normal road would cost $5/m^2 and this solar road costs $458/m^2. That means the cost of the 'solar' part is going to be $453/m^3. So this solar road costs 90X a normal (asphalt) road.

Assuming the efficiency of this road is similar to the French system (which was 11%), for a reference peak illumination of 1000W/m^2 we are looking at 453/110= $4.1 /Wattpeak.
That's almost 4 times what Sleepy paid for his system and 2X what I paid for my system.
$4/Watt is significantly cheaper than the French system (which was something like $14/Watt), but we need to take into account that this is an installation in China, where labor costs are much lower than in France. Likewise, rooftop solar installations will cost much less.

Since this system is not 'tilted', a cost comparison to rooftop solar will likely increase the 2-4X cost disadvantage. Also, we don't have a reference for what rooftop solar costs in China.

So all we can say right now is that it looks like this Jinan system is the lowest cost solar road on the planet, yet it is (at $453/m^2) is still far more expensive than rooftop solar.

If you have some good numbers for cost and production of rooftop solar systems installed in China, please post them here, so we can do a proper comparison.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 08:30:19 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #266 on: January 15, 2018, 05:37:31 PM »
If you want to calculate the output loss by mounting panels flat rather than at the optimal slope (direction and angle) you could get the irradiance numbers here -

http://www.solarelectricityhandbook.com/solar-irradiance.aspx

Just select an appropriate city close by and sum the numbers for both mounts.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #267 on: January 17, 2018, 07:36:11 PM »
Scott and Julie Brusaw will be speaking and displaying SR panels in Orlando, Florida, at the Teamfl conference "Transporting into the Future" on January 25 and 26, 2018.

Quote
Quote
All sharing appreciated so the word gets out there. So often we have a speaking engagement and people say they would have gone but missed our post!
We hope to see many of you there:
Quote
Have you registered for Teamfl's meeting next week in Orlando, "Transporting to the Future"? We’ve got an innovative program planned for our members including learning about #SolarRoadways - an alternative to our traditional roadway and how to reduce greenhouse gases from Scott Brusaw during our Friday General Session.

We will have 6 Solar Road panels on display that you can see and touch throughout the conference. Learn from Scott and Julie Brusaw—the couple behind Solar Roadways that attracted many fans three years ago with a video and online fundraising campaign that drew more than $2 million. With those assets, plus funding from the U.S. Department of Transportation the team has been able to refine their “smart” road tiles, which contain solar cells, LED lights, heating elements, wireless communication, the ability to enable dynamic charging of EVs and make autonomous vehicles safer. #transportationinnovation
https://www.facebook.com/solarroadways/posts/10154860797657126
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #268 on: January 18, 2018, 07:07:06 AM »
I had not noticed this installation before :
Early 2017, a 50 m^2 section of a Georgia road was paved with the (French) WattWay system :

https://www.rocktoroad.com/roads-paving/technology/photovoltaic-road-surface-debuts-in-north-america-5024



The only numbers in the article are that it is 50 m^2 and this :
Quote
The Ray’s demonstration site, which is expected to generate close to 8,000 kwH per year

That would suggest 8,000/50 = 160 kWh/m^2/year.

Remember that the WattWay installation in France was rated at 82 kWh/m^2/year but came in quite a bit lower than that in actual tests over a year ?

Call me skeptic, but why would this system generate 2X the amount per m^2 it did in France ?

They should be happy if it generates half of their claim.
Not a peep about cost though....
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 09:10:33 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Sleepy

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #269 on: January 18, 2018, 09:30:17 AM »
Don't know if SolaRoad has been up here but here's a summary for their last first year:
https://www.triplepundit.com/2016/01/looking-at-the-dutch-solar-bike-path-after-one-year/
Quote
Consider that the SolaRoad cost $3.7 million to build, and in the Netherlands, solar energy costs $2 per kilowatt. That means the money spent for the SolaRoad could have bought 520,000 kilowatts of electricity. Compare that amount with the 3,000 kilowatts produced by the SolaRoad, and it’s easy to see why some people aren’t convinced the project was worthwhile. That’s 173 houses that could have been powered instead of one, for those wondering about the math.

Cleaning it would probably improve output.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 09:37:21 AM by Sleepy »
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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #270 on: January 18, 2018, 05:12:23 PM »
Cleaning and keeping the trees trimmed back so that they don't shade the panels adds to opex and makes the electricity more expensive.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #271 on: January 18, 2018, 06:24:10 PM »
I had not noticed this installation before :
Early 2017, a 50 m^2 section of a Georgia road was paved with the (French) WattWay system :

https://www.rocktoroad.com/roads-paving/technology/photovoltaic-road-surface-debuts-in-north-america-5024
....

So the completely unnecessary Tire Pressure and Tread Monitoring system, installed at the same facility, is being powered, at least in part, by the solar roadway, and no one is complaining?   No one says this safety innovation could be accomplished more easily and simply by someone with a tire pressure gauge and a coin?

And money came from “the State of Georgia, the Georgia DOT, and Kia Motors Manufacturing Georgia. The Ray C. Anderson Foundation provided an endowment for the project.”  What a waste!

/sarc off
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #272 on: January 18, 2018, 07:52:17 PM »
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #273 on: January 19, 2018, 03:55:31 AM »
/sarc off
 ::)

I thought you were spot on without the sarcasm tag.

But all fun aside, this kind of small scale installations can teach us a lot.
About efficiency, and effectiveness, and cost of solar roadway systems.
So I don't oppose them.

But I hope you agree that people like Dave @ EEVblog and thunderf00t have a point that at this point solar roadways is just an incredibly stupid idea, since, looking at installation cost and electricity production, it is 10X - 400X more expensive than solar systems which are put on roofs or anywhere else but in a road.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 04:22:48 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #274 on: January 19, 2018, 09:12:27 AM »
Don't know if SolaRoad has been up here but here's a summary for their last first year:
https://www.triplepundit.com/2016/01/looking-at-the-dutch-solar-bike-path-after-one-year/
Quote
Consider that the SolaRoad cost $3.7 million to build, and in the Netherlands, solar energy costs $2 per kilowatt. That means the money spent for the SolaRoad could have bought 520,000 kilowatts of electricity. Compare that amount with the 3,000 kilowatts produced by the SolaRoad, and it’s easy to see why some people aren’t convinced the project was worthwhile. That’s 173 houses that could have been powered instead of one, for those wondering about the math.

Cleaning it would probably improve output.

Yes. That solar cycle path in the Netherlands was covered before in this thread, but the numbers are kind of hidden. Go to this comment by logicmanPatrick :
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,856.msg129207.html#msg129207
click on the video "EEVblog #681" and go to about 14:00 min.
There you have the numbers : Expectations for this cycle path was about 50 kWh/m^2/year (which is lower than that French Solar WattWay project, likely because the Netherlands is further north than France).

For the actual numbers, from your report, to be clear, the exact quote was :
Quote
After it had only been operating for six months, the path attracted more than 150,000 riders, and more importantly, generated more than 3,000 kilowatt-hours of energy.

That is 6,000 kWh/year in actual production.
Since that path is about 122 m^2, that amounts to 6,000/122=49 kWh/m^2/year, so pretty close to their original estimate.

50 kWh cost something like 10 EURO in the Netherlands, so the full (122 m^2) project will generate 1220 EURO/year in energy. Compare that to the 3 million EURO investment of this project, that gives us 2,459 years for this project to pay back itself.

Or in other words : Since a typical home in the Netherlands uses about 3200 kWh/year, this 3 million EURO project powers about 2 homes.

If a typical rooftop solar project to power one home in the Netherlands is 6000 EURO, then for this 3 million EURO they could have powered 500 homes with rooftop solar. That is a 250X difference, thank you very much.

Solar roadways have a LOOOOOOONG way to go before they become cost effective.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 09:49:28 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #275 on: January 19, 2018, 09:51:30 AM »
And cost effectiveness is not the only concern. From the article :
Quote
Poor weather conditions caused its top layer to break off, and a portion of the path had to be shut down. That happened even though the materials were rigorously tested in a laboratory beforehand to ensure they were roadworthy. This brings up some pretty hefty concerns about how these roads would eventually handle cars, if they were breaking on a bike path.
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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #276 on: January 19, 2018, 10:17:41 PM »
...

But I hope you agree that people like Dave @ EEVblog and thunderf00t have a point that at this point solar roadways is just an incredibly stupid idea, since, looking at installation cost and electricity production, it is 10X - 400X more expensive than solar systems which are put on roofs or anywhere else but in a road.

And I wish you could understand that the “solar” is only one small part of the (Brusaw’s) Solar Roadway product, so making cost comparisons of their solar against dedicated solar installations makes no more sense than arguing that a 35- or 100-thousand-dollar EV makes no sense because you can buy cheaper batteries elsewhere.  Or that a cell phone is worthless because a landline phone doesn’t require charging.  As they say, it’s what you do with it that counts.

Edit:  or that the very expensive solar panels required to power satellites and the International Space Station are not justified — even though those projects simply could not function with cheaper ones.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 10:32:57 PM by Sigmetnow »
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #277 on: January 19, 2018, 11:18:46 PM »
...

But I hope you agree that people like Dave @ EEVblog and thunderf00t have a point that at this point solar roadways is just an incredibly stupid idea, since, looking at installation cost and electricity production, it is 10X - 400X more expensive than solar systems which are put on roofs or anywhere else but in a road.

And I wish you could understand that the “solar” is only one small part of the (Brusaw’s) Solar Roadway product, so making cost comparisons of their solar against dedicated solar installations makes no more sense than arguing that a 35- or 100-thousand-dollar EV makes no sense because you can buy cheaper batteries elsewhere.  Or that a cell phone is worthless because a landline phone doesn’t require charging.  As they say, it’s what you do with it that counts.

Edit:  or that the very expensive solar panels required to power satellites and the International Space Station are not justified — even though those projects simply could not function with cheaper ones.

What are the functions?

1)  Generate electricity - failure considering electricity produced and system cost.

2)  Provide signage - failure since LEDs can't be seen in bright daylight, under mud, snow, and traffic.  Probably very much less expensive to put LED signs over the road where needed and a lot more functional.

3) Longer lasting road surface - undetermined value. 

4) Snow/ice melting - not economically efficient.

Did I miss something?


be cause

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #278 on: January 20, 2018, 01:47:46 AM »
  aagh .. the waste ..
be the cause of only good
and love all beings as you should
and the 'God' of all Creation
will .. through you .. transform all nations :)

Sleepy

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #279 on: January 20, 2018, 06:27:06 AM »
...

But I hope you agree that people like Dave @ EEVblog and thunderf00t have a point that at this point solar roadways is just an incredibly stupid idea, since, looking at installation cost and electricity production, it is 10X - 400X more expensive than solar systems which are put on roofs or anywhere else but in a road.


And I wish you could understand that the “solar” is only one small part of the (Brusaw’s) Solar Roadway product, so making cost comparisons of their solar against dedicated solar installations makes no more sense than arguing that a 35- or 100-thousand-dollar EV makes no sense because you can buy cheaper batteries elsewhere.  Or that a cell phone is worthless because a landline phone doesn’t require charging.  As they say, it’s what you do with it that counts.

Edit:  or that the very expensive solar panels required to power satellites and the International Space Station are not justified — even though those projects simply could not function with cheaper ones.

What are the functions?

1)  Generate electricity - failure considering electricity produced and system cost.

2)  Provide signage - failure since LEDs can't be seen in bright daylight, under mud, snow, and traffic.  Probably very much less expensive to put LED signs over the road where needed and a lot more functional.

3) Longer lasting road surface - undetermined value. 

4) Snow/ice melting - not economically efficient.

Did I miss something?
Maybe the reason and the need for speed in mitigation?
We should be mitigating at roughly 10% per year, here's an image I made for fun last year. Charts always looks a bit funny when you do stuff like that. Not much fun in reality.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #280 on: January 20, 2018, 07:49:56 PM »
1) reduce GHG emissions, compared to cement and tar-based surfaces
2) reduce ICE machinery and GHG emissions required to repair damaged surfaces or paint lines
3) eliminate traffic tie-ups during repairs, reducing vehicle emissions and accidents (due to quick drop-in, modular sections),
4) generates income (a D.O.T. request)
5) generates power in unshaded areas (e.g.  parking lots) where typical locations (roof) are unavailable or shaded, while not obstructing visibility or access (e.g., urban businesses, homes, apartments)
6) ice and snow melting prevents vehicle accidents, and pedestrian/cyclist slip-and-falls, highly desired on sidewalks and driveways as well as streets.  Reduce use of environmentally-damaging and pet-poisonous chemicals.
7) multi-purpose recreational surface (change LED markings to format for basketball, tennis, hopscotch, kiddie-car racing, etc.) in a limited space (urban playgrounds, driveways)
8) road signage added immediately, exactly where needed, not just where road signs have been erected
9) potential EV induction charging
10) less vulnerable to high winds, broken tree branches, hail, and critters chewing through exposed wires
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #281 on: January 20, 2018, 09:20:07 PM »
1) There is no supporting data.  There has to be a road underneath the glass.

2) There is no supporting data.  Plus, how do you paint lines on glass so that they don't rub off in a few days?

3)  There is no supporting data. 

If someone sets up a glass covered road then we could collect data on cost of installation, cost of maintenance, and GHG emissions.

4) No.  The amount of electricity generated can't be considered income because the payoff time is 'forever'.

5) Not economically.  It's a totally foolish way to install solar panels.

6) Not economically viable.  If so, we would already be heating roads.

7) Come on.  That straw is too tiny to grasp.

8)  No.  Can't read the sign in bright sunlight, under mud, snow and traffic.  Way, way too  expensive compared to overhead signs.

9)  Not economically viable.  We aren't going to charge EVs while they drive. 

10)  Another micro-straw.

Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #282 on: January 21, 2018, 08:52:17 AM »
Sigmetnow, as long as Solar Roadways uses more electricity with their LEDs and ice melting as they produce with their solar cells, they are NET energy negative which kills off your arguments 1,2,3,4,5 and 6.

Issue is that Solar Roadways is using more electricity then they generate.

And on 7,8,9 and 10 Bob already pointed out the issues.

Which leaves the application that Sleepy pointed out the only viable other issue : having some nice Christmas lights in the road.

Seriously. After all the facts and the numbers we presented, why are you STILL a champion of Solar Roadways ? Because I don't get it.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 09:03:30 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #283 on: January 21, 2018, 02:06:25 PM »
Oh, trust me, it’s quite clear you don’t get it.

Using your arguments, you would say no one will ever buy a very expensive smart phone, because dumb phones are cheap and make calls just as well, and the battery lasts 10 times as long.  And those silly-colorful full-screen phones don’t even have buttons to type with, for crying out loud!

#Wrong
#WelcomeToThe21stCenturyMyFriend
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #284 on: January 21, 2018, 03:18:27 PM »
Oh, trust me, it’s quite clear you don’t get it.

Using your arguments, you would say no one will ever buy a very expensive smart phone, because dumb phones are cheap and make calls just as well, and the battery lasts 10 times as long.  And those silly-colorful full-screen phones don’t even have buttons to type with, for crying out loud!

#Wrong
#WelcomeToThe21stCenturyMyFriend

How about buying a very expensive phone whose screen you can't read except when it's dark?  That you have to keep plugged in most of the time? 

People will pay for more functions but it the case of solar roads we would be paying far more and getting essentially nothing. 

Signage is not functional much of the time. If the system doesn't work in daylight then another signage system would be needed.  And the systems we now use work in all conditions.

The system makes a miniscule amount of electricity for the money invested.

It's a very expensive way to clear snow off the roads.

There's an unanswered question as to whether it might be possible to put a glass cover on roads and make them last longer.  I've seen no one make an argument in favor based on cost but perhaps one could be made.

But even if a glass cap on roads worked that would not justify including largely unusable LEDs, inefficient solar panels, and energy wasting heat cables. 



Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #285 on: January 21, 2018, 03:26:51 PM »
“energy wasting heat cables”

That’s last century, again.  Have you looked recently at the tiny defroster wires embedded in your car window?
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #286 on: January 21, 2018, 03:55:14 PM »
“energy wasting heat cables”

That’s last century, again.  Have you looked recently at the tiny defroster wires embedded in your car window?

The physics of melting snow off roads hasn't changed.  Last century laws of physics are still in operation.  Yes, we could melt snow from roads with resistance heating.  But the cost would be very high. 

Melting snow off car windows doesn't take a large amount of energy because the area is small.  And I suspect the warming vehicle interior plays a role as well.

With roads you not only have to melt the snow on top but you also have to warm up the the mass of the road, and to some extent the ground under the road.

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #287 on: January 21, 2018, 04:40:32 PM »
...
There's an unanswered question as to whether it might be possible to put a glass cover on roads and make them last longer.  I've seen no one make an argument in favor based on cost but perhaps one could be made.

But even if a glass cap on roads worked that would not justify including largely unusable LEDs, inefficient solar panels, and energy wasting heat cables.

User Guidelines for Waste and Byproduct Materials in Pavement Construction
Quote
INTRODUCTION

Waste glass that is crushed and screened can be used as a portion of fine aggregate in asphalt paving mixes. Satisfactory performance has been obtained from hot mix asphalt pavements incorporating 10 to 15 percent crushed glass in wearing surface mixes. The term "glasphalt" has at times been used to describe these pavements. Higher blends, incorporating perhaps up to 25 percent, could potentially be used in base or binder course mixes. Hot mix asphalt surface course pavements with more than 15 percent waste glass may experience deterioration due to stripping of the asphalt cement binder from the waste glass.
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things.

TerryM

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #288 on: January 21, 2018, 08:41:05 PM »
WRT snow removal.
I suspect that solar pavement's glass surface would be destroyed by commercial snow plows. If so 100% of fallen, or drifting snow would need to be melted off, and this would need to be done in a timely manner.


The energy required to rapidly melt the snow and ice would be very high, and would come at a time when the panel was producing very little or no electricity. Will the panels produce enough energy in the days of summer to make up for their losses during the long, snowy nights of winter? Will this energy drain coincide with periods of high energy use by heat pumps and other heating systems?


Enough energy to melt all of this snow and ice is also going to cause evaporation. A roadway that creates it's own fog bank during inclement weather could prove problematical. At some point this mist will freeze and return as ice crystals, creating additional problems in areas close to the heated road.


I really can't see this as more than a novelty item.
Terry


Tor Bejnar

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #289 on: January 21, 2018, 08:49:26 PM »
Where will melted roadway snow go on a Solar Roadway?  Once off the roadway, it is likely to freeze, building an ice dam. So wherever there is a dip in the road, you'll get a heated pool.  How cool is that?

Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things.

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #290 on: January 21, 2018, 09:54:51 PM »
T & T, it's simply stupid to melt ice and snow on the roads from any perspective imaginable.

The costs to melt the ice and snow is not high, it would be astronomical, but that has been covered earlier.

Snow ploughs are regularly scraping and destroying asphalt on our roads here. As a quick fix they are regularly filling holes with loose tar sand.
I have a creek on the property which never freezes over, we can have fog here at -20°C.
Imagine traffic safety on steaming roads during winter?
And yes it will create ice on the sides that are not heated. It's bad enough with those snow walls that can reach up to our road signs, when we have a lot of snow.
I use three air to air heat pumps which regularly fills their surroundings with meltwater, which of course freezes on the ground. During longer sub zero periods I will have to use salt and tools to remove the small mountains of ice created below, or it will damage the heat pumps. Imagine that along our roads. Snow ploughs? We would probably need dynamite! ;D
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #291 on: January 22, 2018, 02:14:37 AM »
Quote
“With roads you not only have to melt the snow on top but you also have to warm up the the mass of the road, and to some extent the ground under the road.” 
> Only the panel glass needs to be warmed, not the ground.  And the ground provides insulation from the cold on three sides, compared to a window that lacks that protection.  Remember, exposed bridge surfaces freeze before a normal road surface. 

Quote
…ice… 
> See any puddles or ice dams on the solar roadways panels which have melted the snow?  I don’t.  Might just be they have a solution for that. ;)

> Snow plow damage?  Think again!
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 02:25:02 AM by Sigmetnow »
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #292 on: January 22, 2018, 03:02:51 AM »
Quote
Only the panel glass needs to be warmed, not the ground.

The ground, down a few inches, will be as cold as the glass surface and will be a heat sink.  There is no insulation between the glass/heat coils and mass below.

Running sweeper trucks to clear off any standing water would only add to the cost.

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #293 on: January 22, 2018, 03:28:14 AM »
Sleepy: “Imagine traffic safety on steaming roads during winter”

While I see fog over the sea ice or over lakes and rivers when it’s cold, I’ve never seen it in the city except right over a manhole cover. The amount of water that pools isn’t sufficient. The excess drains into the storm drain system. That’s despite there being plenty of sources of heat or salt to cause lots of water even in cold weather.

wili

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #294 on: January 22, 2018, 04:31:30 AM »
I live in a city and we have heavy fog not too irregularly. But then there are some ten lakes inside the city and a mighty river (Mississippi), so may we're the 'exception that proves the rule'?
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #295 on: January 22, 2018, 06:43:12 AM »
Re, Fog, or mist


The thing is that they plan to use heat to melt the snow/ice. This heat is what guarantees evaporation, and it's the evaporation that causes the mist or fog.


Terry

Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #296 on: January 22, 2018, 06:52:03 AM »
There seem to be some of us who still think that snow melting with electricity is a good alternative to snow plowing.

I thought it would be a good idea to put that theory to the test, so here are some calculations using energy use as a reference :

Suppose we have a good storm, and a foot of snow falls on the road.

That is about 3 cm of frozen water. Per square meter, that means 3/10 * 100 = 30 kg of ice.
To melt that with a 100% efficient system, we are going to need 330,000 * 30 = 10 MJ/m^2 of energy to melt that snow. That is not even counting the heat losses due to warming up the glass and the soil below and such. It's using an ideal system.
If you use electricity that needs to be powered from a fossil fuel power station, you need to take the efficiency of the power station into account. That is typically something like 30% for a coal plant, and 50% for a modern gas plant, which means we need at least 20 MJ/m^2 in fossil fuels to melt that snow.

Now let's use a snow plow.
A truck driving down the highway would typically use something like 10 MPG in diesel. With a plow in front, that goes down to about 5 MPG. Assume the plow is 3 meters wide, then one mile clears  1600*3=4800m^2 of snow, for 1/5th a gallon of diesel. 1 gallon of diesel contains 146 MJ of energy, so per square meter we need 146 MJ/ 5 /4800 = 6,083 J/m^2 of fossil fuel energy.

There you have it. Snow plowing is 20,000,000/6083 = 3288 TIMES more energy efficient than melting the snow with electricity. And that is with an ideal melting system.

That's why Solar Road's claims are BS and a fraud.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 08:14:37 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Sebastian Jones

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #297 on: January 22, 2018, 06:55:15 AM »
Clearly solar roadways do not make sense, from the narrow perspectives of conventional economists, at least at present. However, lots of innovations took a while to start generating profits, and it is this "throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks" process that leads to some of our coolest inventions.
So, while it is easy to scoff at these prototypes of roads that produce electricity, I'm OK with them being tried- maybe they will work out in the long run.

Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #298 on: January 22, 2018, 08:31:55 AM »
Here in Silicon Valley 9 out of 10 startups go bust.
Simply because their idea is not an improvement over existing technology.
Nuf said about Solar Roadways.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #299 on: January 23, 2018, 04:53:49 AM »
Here in Silicon Valley 9 out of 10 startups go bust.
Simply because their idea is not an improvement over existing technology.
Nuf said about Solar Roadways.

That’s a shame about Silicon Valley.  Solar Roadways’ new product has years of strong backing from a public/private partnership with the city of Sandpoint, the state of Idaho, other agencies from other states, and private endowments, as well as the U.S. Department of Transportation — multiple times.  Oh, and over $2 million from a record-setting Indiegogo campaign from regular folks, including members of this Forum.  People are excited by the possibilities of this new technology, and they will assure it continues to be developed.  So, :P.
    Nuf said!
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.