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Tor Bejnar

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #350 on: January 27, 2018, 05:04:30 PM »
Quote
Cutting down trees to provide direct sunlight onto panels is, environmentally, robbing Peter to pay Paul.  I say keep the trees.
(SteveMDFP)

I live in a forest and my roof gets only 2 or 3 hours of sunshine.  I'm envious of you folks who have hobby (or whatever) solar panels (like I did 20+ years ago).  I have permission to cut neighbor's trees to put in solar, but the trees (oaks, pine, magnolia, etc.) are precious, and they stay, at least last for now. (Someday a hurricane will topple one or more onto or into my home as 5 or 6 of my neighbors have experienced in the last two years.  Maybe solar gets installed after that!   :-\)
« Last Edit: January 30, 2018, 05:08:53 PM by Tor Bejnar »
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gerontocrat

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #351 on: January 27, 2018, 06:41:41 PM »
Quote
Cutting down trees to provide direct sunlight onto panels is, environmentally, robbing Peter to pay Paul.  I say keep the trees.
(SteveMDFP)

I live in a forest and my roof gets only 2 or 3 hours of sunshine.  I'm envious of you folks who have hobby (or whatever) solar panels (like I did 20+ years ago).  I have permission to cut neighbor's trees to put in solar, but the trees (oaks, pine, magnolia, etc.) are precious, and they stay, at last for now. (Someday a hurricane will topple one or more onto or into my home as 5 or 6 of my neighbors have experienced in the last two years.  Maybe solar gets installed after that!   :-\)
A little wind turbine - perhaps(as it seems you are in a windy location?)

Consumers guide (UK)
https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/wind-turbines/article/installing-a-wind-turbine/home-wind-turbines
Quote
Wind turbine price

As an indication, the Energy Saving Trust (EST) estimates that domestic wind turbines (including installation and VAT) cost:
Up to £3,000 for a roof-mounted 1kW micro wind turbine
Between £9,900 and £19,000 for a 2.5kW pole-mounted wind turbine
Between £21,000 and £30,000 for a 6kW pole-mounted wind turbine.

Although micro roof-mounted wind turbines are cheaper, they are also less efficient and produce a lot less electricity than pole-mounted ones.

PRACTICAL?
The Energy Saving Trust's wind turbine study in 2009 concluded that fewer sites than previously predicted were suitable for the technology, and homeowners should first install an anemometer (wind gauge) for at least three months to determine the average wind speed for the location before investing in a wind turbine.  Many wind turbine manufacturers, and the Energy Saving Trust, recommend installing at sites with a local average wind speed of 5m/s or more. The vast majority of UK households have an average wind speed of less than this.

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Tor Bejnar

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #352 on: January 27, 2018, 07:38:35 PM »
Sorry for the OT, but in reply, gerontocrat, Florida is pretty lousy for wind, until you get to 140 meters.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #353 on: January 27, 2018, 08:16:13 PM »
You're welcome :)


I've really tried to work up some kind of enthusiasm, but the efficacy of the product escapes me. I presently have a section of heated pavement that keeps the entrance to the underground parking clear. Old tech that's been in place since 1997.
The problem is that it never receives direct sunlight.
My California house has a wide concrete drive, but the trees shade it except for a few winter months. If electricity was such a concern that I'd be willing to cut down the trees, I'd probably prefer a solar shade to solar paving. (especially after I'd done away with the shade trees.)
 
Terry

Passive systems such as mirrors that concentrate and deflect sunlight to the surfaces that need to melt might work.

At first glance, this seems like a great idea!  Are you aware of any places or products that have attempted it?
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #354 on: January 27, 2018, 08:21:20 PM »
Quote
Cutting down trees to provide direct sunlight onto panels is, environmentally, robbing Peter to pay Paul.  I say keep the trees.
(SteveMDFP)

I live in a forest and my roof gets only 2 or 3 hours of sunshine.  I'm envious of you folks who have hobby (or whatever) solar panels (like I did 20+ years ago).  I have permission to cut neighbor's trees to put in solar, but the trees (oaks, pine, magnolia, etc.) are precious, and they stay, at last for now. (Someday a hurricane will topple one or more onto or into my home as 5 or 6 of my neighbors have experienced in the last two years.  Maybe solar gets installed after that!   :-\)

Sounds like a job for: community solar!  :)

https://www.energysage.com/solar/community-solar/community-solar-power-explained/
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Sleepy

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #355 on: January 27, 2018, 08:40:24 PM »
In Sweden we are taxed for sharing any form of solar.
https://www.nyteknik.se/opinion/vi-maste-fa-dela-pa-de-soligaste-taken-6887094
Made a seriously OT comment here earlier today:
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,861.msg140148.html#msg140148
The mills are still grinding here, we'll see what happens in October...

No wonder our residential installations is not picking up speed.
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SteveMDFP

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #356 on: January 27, 2018, 08:50:26 PM »
Or another stupid idea, maybe.
Select two particularly tall, study trees, on an E-W axis, above the height of surrounding trees.
Have an arborist mount a pulley high on each tree, with a sturdy nylon rope between them.
Build a rig for the solar panels such that, when hung from the rope, the panels are optimally oriented.

Use the pulleys to hoist the rig+panels above the other trees.  The assembly will tend to swing in the breeze, but  another rope and pulley system could be used to dampen the oscillations of the swinging. 

Pros:  solar power suitable for many wooded areas
Cons:  eyesore
          very labor-intensive setup
          possible damage to panels in strong winds
          hazardous tree-climbing to build the setup.

Maybe worth it, maybe not.  But material costs would be far less than a wind turbine.

P.S.  Sorry, that was off-topic for the thread.  To make the idea on-topic, lets use the solar roadway pieces to hang off the rope!

Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #357 on: January 27, 2018, 08:55:42 PM »
Oh! And solar roadways will never become a significant contributor to our efforts to eliminate our reliance on fossil fuels, an impact so infinitesimal as to escape notice.

Perhaps. But that’s better than carbon-positive, right? ;)  If the technology has the potential to reduce morbidity and mortality, and has net energy use that is less than a competing product, it deserves serious consideration for those aspects alone.
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Sleepy

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #358 on: January 27, 2018, 08:58:22 PM »
To make the idea on-topic, lets use the solar roadway pieces to hang off the rope!
That would be an improvement since the specs for the SolaRoad was 185W/m²!
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #359 on: January 30, 2018, 06:01:08 AM »
Not to rub anyone believer in the face, but Solar Freakin Roadways has produced a whopping 0.09 kWh of energy today ! With peak power (around noon) of, wait for it....  20 W. Which appears to be rather typical for a day in January.

https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/pv/public_systems/V3vh1173801/overview

Yes, folks, this entire array, which promised to show that Solar Freakin Roadway would change the world as we know it, produced 20 W at the peak today. A whopping 90 Wh over the whole day. About 1 dollar cent worth of electricity.

They did not produce any numbers for how much energy they used to power their disco lights, but an educated guess it something like 10 W/panel times 30 panels = 300 W, over 24 hours that is 7.2 kWh used. Even at the peak in July did they generate only 1 kWh/day, which means they are essentially showing off a very expensive ($60,000) energy negative disco light show.

The only thing that blows my mind is that there are still people out there believing the snake oil salesmen tactics of these scammers.
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Sleepy

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #360 on: January 30, 2018, 08:37:13 AM »
Sandpoint Idaho is at ~48°N right? Here's from another ten degreees further north (panels at ground level and up to a maxiumum of ~2.5 metres above ground):
I had a bad day yesterday. 278W peak and 0.48kWh in total, due to a lot of snowfall, my satellite dish also stopped receiving signals.
This was Saturday:
We have a really simple rule of thumb here. 1000kWh per year for every 1000Wp (decently) installed. Panel efficiency determines area.
Inspired by this, I ordered a kit today, the sun will return... 2x270Wp and a dual inverter. 430 € inc VAT. That's less than 0.8 €/Wp.
This is probably one of the best hobbies I've ever had.
I pay ~150 € per 1000kWh for my electricity all in all, produced by wind.
It's pretty easy to see when a system will break even at <0.8 €/W, inverter included. Zero discounts on such a small order. Just above five years.

I actually had some sun shining through the clouds today (sun is still low at the horizon), peak 1300W and 3.23kWh in total. :)

February is coming and that's the mystery month here, Nov-Jan usually sucks, adding an image from an old system in Västerås (not mine, partly shaded by trees, used to be 3260Wp and upgraded since then) which shows this nicely when comparing monthly output between 2010-2014.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #361 on: January 30, 2018, 09:48:12 AM »
No worries, Sleepy. You are still producing 10X what Solar Freakin Roadways is producing.
And your system did not cost $60,000.-.
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Sleepy

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #362 on: February 28, 2018, 11:47:51 AM »
A rather old but still "pilot project" in Jönköping on a small strech of the road on a 7% incline, using pipes streching out on the sides of the asphalt to ensure drainage.
...
Also adding a webcam image from Saturday when there was some light snow. The temperature then was -1.5°C... :)
...

Had a look at their webcams today. Adding today's sunny images from that heated piece of road in Jönköping at -8°C. Both the upper and lower part.
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TerryM

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #363 on: March 04, 2018, 10:30:36 PM »
The Chinese are apparently going ahead with a Solar Highway that will charge your car as you drive - at 120 kmph.


https://sputniknews.com/science/201803031062199376-china-solar-highway-2022/

Could cut way back on the size of battery each vehicle requires.

Terry

Sleepy

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #364 on: March 05, 2018, 05:13:53 AM »
Maybe it will be more successful on those lower latitudes, Terry.
They really seem to need that new stretch of road anyway. From that article:
Quote
"I always leave some time for when I have to drive on the Hangzhou-Ningbo Expressway, as traffic jams are frequent," Shi Xiaobai, a businessman commuter on the Hangzhou-Ningbo Expressway told the Global Times on Sunday. "And it took me four hours to get from Hangzhou to Shaoxing on February 18."
That's 64.5 kilometres.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #365 on: March 06, 2018, 08:45:55 AM »
The Chinese are apparently going ahead with a Solar Highway that will charge your car as you drive - at 120 kmph.


https://sputniknews.com/science/201803031062199376-china-solar-highway-2022/

Could cut way back on the size of battery each vehicle requires.

Terry

To "cut way back on the size of battery each vehicle requires" the entire road would have to be equipped with induction coils. And all the electric cars would have to be equipped with receiving induction coils as well. And the efficiency of the transfer would have to be close to or as good as charging a battery with a wire.

We are a long way from there.

From the article :

Quote
China's first solar expressway with a length of 1 kilometer was opened for testing in December 2017 in East China's Jinan. But it was vandalized and had sensitive parts stolen from it five days after opening, the Beijing Youth Daily said.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #366 on: March 06, 2018, 04:36:04 PM »
The Brusaw’s Solar Roadways team and one of their manufacturing partners were invited to speak in the UAE recently.

Quote
Solar Roadways was honored to accept a very exciting speaking engagement invitation in the UAE! Scott, one of our team members and an interested manufacturing partner have just returned from a wonderful trip to Dubai and Abu Dhabi. In addition to the speaking engagement, they had many meetings with interested customers and distributors in government and the private sector. Happy to have so much interest from this beautiful country! ... From the level of interest there, it sounds like there will be more opportunities in the near future.
https://www.facebook.com/solarroadways/posts/10154971694577126
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #367 on: March 07, 2018, 08:19:47 AM »
The Brusaw’s Solar Roadways team and one of their manufacturing partners were invited to speak in the UAE recently.

Well. What do you know.
Maybe the UAE took it serious when I suggested to put a solar roadway over their Hype-R-loop:
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1094.msg143777.html#msg143777

Sorry. I couldn't resist.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #368 on: April 21, 2018, 02:07:00 PM »
The Brusaw’s have finalized their version 4 design of their Solar Roadway modules and are preparing for manufacturing later this year.
Quote
Exciting News: Scott completed the SR4 design this week! That will be the model released to the public this year with the help of our manufacturing partners. First one is in Ohio. In negotiations now with second group in Idaho and in talks with others around the world.
https://www.facebook.com/solarroadways/posts/10155071230657126

Other recent progress:
Quote
Solar Roadways is having more and more meetings with international connections. Although we email with people from all over the world every week, there is nothing like meeting in person to move things forward. This week we had a wonderful visit from a South Korean company interested in Manufacturing/Distribution opportunities to bring SR to the Asian Market. Last month, we had a visitor from Australia wanting to help introduce SR to the Australian market. In February, SR went to Dubai and Abu Dhabi and met with interested Customers, Manufacturers and Distributors interested in introducing Solar Road panels to the Middle East Market. Next month we have visitors coming who are interested in the African Market. And we are in talks with our friends in Austria who want to introduce SR to the European Market. We are working to find the perfect partners to bring panels to each corner of the world. ...
https://www.facebook.com/solarroadways/posts/10155053971637126
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #369 on: July 05, 2018, 12:46:44 AM »
From Solar Roadways:
Quote
Great article about E-Mek, our first Manufacturing Partners in Ohio and the jobs they plan to create making Solar Road Panels. So glad they are getting help from their state too:

"With the help of the Dayton Development Coalition, E-Mek was awarded $40,000 in economic development grant funding from JobsOhio to invest in new production equipment, which will help create the dozens of new jobs it is projecting."

They are busy gearing up and believe they will have the first panels ready later this year. ...
https://www.facebook.com/41869107125/posts/10155213007397126/

Solar panel production bringing 50 jobs to Dayton, Ohio region
Quote
Vandalia-based E-Mek Technologies, a contract manufacturer that specializes in printed circuit boards, has entered into an agreement with Solar Roadways LLC to make solar roadway panels at its 50,000-square-foot facility. These modular panels include solar cells to generate energy, a heating element to melt snow and LED lights that can be programmed to direct automobile and foot traffic. They are designed to replace traditional asphalt and concrete surfaces. ...
https://www.bizjournals.com/dayton/news/2018/06/28/solar-panel-production-bringing-50-jobs-to-dayton.html
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #370 on: July 15, 2018, 02:08:35 PM »
Tokyo Announces Plan To Install Solar Roads In Time For 2020 Olympics
Quote
Some solar panelling has already been installed on a trial basis in the Sagamihara, Kanagawa Prefecture by a Seven-Eleven. The technology was only introduced in May, but a manager at the Seven-Eleven store told the Business Times that it's starting to pay off.

"(The solar road system) can generate 16,145 kilowatt-hours of electricity annually, covering about 9 per cent of the entire electricity the store consumes."

It's important that the roads begin generating power more quickly, because they are currently quite expensive to install. Both France and the Netherlands have been experimenting with solar roads, and in France, it costs about 5 million euros for ever kilometer of road.

Japan has decided to continue the introduction of solar roads on government owned property, and will more likely focus on parking lots. The wider surface area can generate more electricity and justify the cost of installation.

Installation is supposed to begin during the 2019 fiscal year, and the process is intensive.

The road is made of solar panels that are installed in the ground, then covered in a special resin that makes them durable under the weight of traffic.

If this technology were more widely used, it would greatly reduce the cost of installation, as the components could be more affordably mass produced. So implementing any usage is increasing the likelihood of solar roads everywhere.
https://www.greenmatters.com/news/2018/06/11/ZdfqoX/tokyo-solar-road-olympics
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #371 on: July 18, 2018, 02:16:13 PM »
Quote
Exciting news: Today Solar Roadways was selected as one of 25 semi-finalists out of over 800 entries from all over the world in the Postcard Lottery Green Challenge!

The Postcode Lottery Green Challenge is one of the world's largest competitions in the field of sustainable entrepreneurship.

Five finalists will be invited to present in Amsterdam in September.

"The results are in! These 25 start-ups are in the running to win €500k to develop their innovative plans to save the planet."
https://m.facebook.com/41869107125/posts/10155239930737126/

https://greenchallenge.info/info/946-25-green-start-ups-that-are-changing-the-world
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #372 on: September 07, 2018, 08:44:10 AM »
Remember the French WattWay project ?
We talked about it right here on this thread and EEVblog debunked their economics last year.
I posted this video among others that show that solar roadways simple will ALWAYS be inferior to solar rooftop installations :



Now, it looks like the French themselves are coming to their senses :

The solar road in Normandy produces half as much electricity as expected

https://www.techniques-ingenieur.fr/actualite/articles/route-solaire-normande-electricite-51088/

Quote
About a year ago the official website of the Ministry of Ecology announced that the solar road of Tourouvre in Normandy would produce 17963 kWh per day. Before retreating, lowering the daily production to 767 kWh. That's 23 times less. The newspaper Le Monde  echoed  this fix on December 22, 2016.

But production in the real world is even lower. This highly publicized road (340 kW) has produced an average of 409 kWh per day during the year 2017, or 149.4 MWh during the 365 days in question, reports Le Moniteur in  an article  posted online on December 22, 2017, exactly one year after the one of the World. In other words, in full power equivalent, it worked for one hour and twelve minutes each day.

with people really waking up that 'solar-roadways' are just a big waste of money :

Solar road: the big waste :

https://reporterre.net/Route-solaire-le-grand-gaspillage

Quote
The improvement of Normandy, inaugurated by Ségolène Royal on December 22, 2016, produced half as much electricity as expected during the year 2017. It cost 5 million euros. The one that was planned on the Marseille ring road and announced by Ségolène Royal in 2016 has apparently been abandoned. Just like the one that was to be installed on a regional road in Brittany.

A lesson learned :

Do the math, and find out that even this most efficient WattWay solution, solar roadways will give you 1/3rd the capacity at 9x the cost of solar rooftop. A lesson the French learned the hard way.

So, for any more of these projects that ANY municipality may consider : DO THE MATH first before you proceed.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2018, 09:19:15 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #373 on: September 08, 2018, 01:27:06 AM »
It’s not just about the solar — any more than a smart phone is only about a touch screen, or an internet connection.  A combination of technologies can come together to make a very useful product.  That it is not the most powerful or efficient example of one of them is beside the point.  Wait and see what develops from these early attempts.

“No one is going to pay $400 for a smart phone.”
« Last Edit: September 08, 2018, 01:41:03 AM by Sigmetnow »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #374 on: September 08, 2018, 03:57:37 AM »
It’s not just about the solar — any more than a smart phone is only about a touch screen, or an internet connection.  A combination of technologies can come together to make a very useful product.  That it is not the most powerful or efficient example of one of them is beside the point.  Wait and see what develops from these early attempts.

Huh ? WattWays is ONLY a solar road. That's all it is : solar panels in the road.

What are you talking about when you mention "combination of technologies" ?
Are you referring to the Solar Roadways electric "snow melt" and "disco lights" features ?
Because if you do, we can have a separate discussion on how 'salt' and 'paint' would compete with these solutions in terms of effectiveness and cost.

Sigmetnow, you are a smart guy.

Don't you see that whenever we spend 9X the cost on 1/3rd the production that we miss out on 27X the solar power we could have gotten from rooftops or commercial systems for the same amount of investment ?

Don't you see that thus such 'solar road' fiascos are not just PREDICTABLY bad investment, but are also fuel on the fire of renewable critics and fossil fuel advocates ?

And thus that this hampers the green energy revolution ?
« Last Edit: September 08, 2018, 04:06:54 AM by Rob Dekker »
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oren

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #375 on: September 08, 2018, 08:46:04 AM »
Quote
whenever we spend 9X the cost on 1/3rd the production that we miss out on 27X the solar power we could have gotten from rooftops or commercial systems for the same amount of investment ?
This is obviously the main issue. Even if you think solar roadways are a good idea, it should wait IMHO until roofs and other more suitable surfaces are converted to solar generation. But OTOH, Solar Roadways is NOT the cause of the delays in general solar deployment, it's just a tiny distraction, not worth much discussion to "debunk".

Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #376 on: September 08, 2018, 10:01:10 AM »
Quote
whenever we spend 9X the cost on 1/3rd the production that we miss out on 27X the solar power we could have gotten from rooftops or commercial systems for the same amount of investment ?
This is obviously the main issue. Even if you think solar roadways are a good idea, it should wait IMHO until roofs and other more suitable surfaces are converted to solar generation. But OTOH, Solar Roadways is NOT the cause of the delays in general solar deployment, it's just a tiny distraction, not worth much discussion to "debunk".

If you think public funding of failed solar initiatives are just a "tiny distraction", may I remind you of Solyndra and the ammunition that provided to the fossil-fuel industry advocates ? :

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/specialreports/solyndra-scandal/

And that was a technology that was only questionable (not guaranteed failures) at face value.

Wattways and other "solar road" initiatives on the other hand are demonstrably bad investments as even Dave @ EEVblog and Thunderf00t showed up-front.

Please, let us not go for such guaranteed solar failures, since they are just fuel for the fossil-fuel industry's arguments against green energy.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2018, 10:10:21 AM by Rob Dekker »
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gerontocrat

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #377 on: September 08, 2018, 12:01:24 PM »
Much to my own surprise I can see it working in a few very limited locations. Solar pathways at clubs (e.g. golf clubs, country clubs) where wear and tear on the road surface (pedestrians, golf carts, a few posh autos and a maintenance pick-up, would provide a bit of power for the club, and make the filthy rich feel they were doing their bit for a green sustainable private income in the future.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #378 on: September 08, 2018, 02:25:05 PM »
So cement-surface roads, that contribute to greenhouse gases and buckle in the heat…  And asphalt road surfaces, which melt in the heat…   Are the pinnacle and sine qua non of roads?  Sorry, no.

Looking for better options, with different benefits, is exactly what is needed.  Claims that something is foolish or impossible because of a few false starts is exactly what held electric vehicle industry back for so long.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #379 on: September 09, 2018, 07:31:03 AM »
So cement-surface roads, that contribute to greenhouse gases and buckle in the heat…  And asphalt road surfaces, which melt in the heat…   Are the pinnacle and sine qua non of roads?  Sorry, no.

Looking for better options, with different benefits, is exactly what is needed.  Claims that something is foolish or impossible because of a few false starts is exactly what held electric vehicle industry back for so long.

Dear Sigmetnow. What happened to your reasoning ?
Solar roads are a factor 27 more expensive than solar rooftop.
They are possibly the WORST location to put solar panels.

And even without the solar stuff, glass is a terrible road surface.
It is too soft, and too brittle, thus easily causing cracks and break-up causing glass dust, which is also a health hazard.

So why are you still promoting it ?
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magnamentis

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #380 on: September 09, 2018, 03:07:41 PM »
So cement-surface roads, that contribute to greenhouse gases and buckle in the heat…  And asphalt road surfaces, which melt in the heat…   Are the pinnacle and sine qua non of roads?  Sorry, no.

Looking for better options, with different benefits, is exactly what is needed.  Claims that something is foolish or impossible because of a few false starts is exactly what held electric vehicle industry back for so long.

Dear Sigmetnow. What happened to your reasoning ?
Solar roads are a factor 27 more expensive than solar rooftop.
They are possibly the WORST location to put solar panels.

And even without the solar stuff, glass is a terrible road surface.
It is too soft, and too brittle, thus easily causing cracks and break-up causing glass dust, which is also a health hazard.

So why are you still promoting it ?

he did not promote the product but the approach as such and is right.

further perhaps we should (have to) sooner or later put money into seconder or even lower row and put the real needs like sustainability etc. into position one.

the people who are able and willing to invest have too much money and i think there should be a maximum wealth cap to keep private and exceeding wealth should kind of be mandatory to invest into non-profitable but necessary or meaningful and/or promissing projects that point into the right dircection, and this independent of the fact whether the technology as such at a given moment is already ready to fully serve the purpose.

this is how developments should start, money as the only valid criteria together with bragging rights and mass idiocy  has not proven to produce sustainable solutions.

almost any so called successful product has the potential and/or does come with very dangerous downsides, that includes smart-phones in the hands of kids for gaming, porn and mobbing as well as cars, airplanes, cruiseships etc.etc. all those things, as mass products, contribute to the ultimate downfall of human civilization or at least heavy disruptions.

topic is too complex to go any further here and will probably start useless discussions again which is why i end with

SIG is totally right with what he's trying to convey and petty reasoning about details (talking things to death) is not helpful in the process to initialize significant changes to the system. no matter whether this exact product could do what it is/was intent for, if all the roads would produce at least some energy in return to the surface the consume and costs they produce that would be great, hence the idea is great and that the first or second or 10th approach is not fully keeping up with it's promises is irrelevant. main thing is that we try to become more efficient and roads are a huge area that currently mainly serves to allow all the traffic that is a huge part of the problems which this forum is all about.
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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #381 on: September 10, 2018, 02:48:42 AM »
magnamentis, I agree with your sentence that :

Quote
main thing is that we try to become more efficient and roads are a huge area

We are not getting more "efficient" by putting solar panels in the road surface.
We know now that that is actually 27X LESS efficient than putting the panels anywhere else.

So here (from Korea) is how you build a "solar road" that is efficient and does not require any new space :



And parking lots are a great place too :



So do you agree that we should make "solar roads" this way, or do you still insist on putting panels in the road surface for 27X the cost ?
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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #382 on: September 10, 2018, 05:28:33 PM »
Is a touch-screen smart phone worth 27 times the cost of a nearly-free dumb phone?  YES, say millions of people.  Because it is not just a phone

People around the globe are clamoring for this product for their sidewalks, driveways, and playgrounds.  Maybe they already have solar panels on their roof.  Maybe they don’t like the injuries their kids get from falling on a paved driveway.  Maybe they want it for sustainable-energy lighted paths in a public garden where they can’t use snow-melt chemicals and solar panels would be obtrusive.  Maybe they just think it’s a cool product.  To think they are buying this just for the solar is unbelievably narrow-minded, and misses the point of the product completely.  If all they wanted was solar, they’d get solar panels.  But that’s not what they want!

The Brusaws are working with manufacturers to finalize the design and price with the benefit of mass production.  The market will be enormous, even at multiples of pure solar prices.  And people will love it!
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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #383 on: September 10, 2018, 08:22:49 PM »
magnamentis, I agree with your sentence that :

Quote
main thing is that we try to become more efficient and roads are a huge area

We are not getting more "efficient" by putting solar panels in the road surface.
We know now that that is actually 27X LESS efficient than putting the panels anywhere else.

So here (from Korea) is how you build a "solar road" that is efficient and does not require any new space :



And parking lots are a great place too :



So do you agree that we should make "solar roads" this way, or do you still insist on putting panels in the road surface for 27X the cost ?

you still talk in current terms and considering current technology and conditions and thus far you are mostly right.

my point was another one, to get to a point where things make sense we have to try and fail. most things that we see as self-evident nowadays have once been starting with an idea and took a huge toll of lives and all kinds of fails until someone came up with a solution.

since we don't have such a solution now, i can't tell what it could be but i think in terms of new materials and perhaps lesser output but therefore almost no additional costs etc.

i value the trial higher than the lack of success because we must be ready to try and fail to get somewhere.

and last but not least it's possible that the entire idea will die, i don't deny the possibility, perhaps there won't be roads in the future, who knows. for now i find the idea to use already and vastly used/abused space in for additional purposes to increase efficiency of uses space good and no matter how big a fail one product is/was, as long as we learn something (might well be that it's not feasible) it has to be done.

if we were thinking things are not possible just because we don't know how yet, we wouldn't have made much progress, good and bad. or does anyone believe that modern vessels and airplanes would work the way they do without all the sunk ships and crashed planes and/or with bamboo frames of the old days ;)

because of the value of the idea as such and the trial as such i simply believe that we should not judge too hard over the mistakes the were made and the illusions that sometimes burst like a soap bubble
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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #384 on: September 10, 2018, 10:16:56 PM »
IMHO there will not be a large market for this due to prohibitive price relative to benefits. I wouldn't mind to be proven wrong.
Indeed, has there been a mention of prices? Release dates?

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #385 on: September 11, 2018, 02:09:49 AM »
IMHO there will not be a large market for this due to prohibitive price relative to benefits. I wouldn't mind to be proven wrong.
Indeed, has there been a mention of prices? Release dates?

The market will absolutely be a niche at the beginning.  But then, so was rooftop solar, so... it will be interesting to see how this evolves.

Last I heard, SR were in discussions with their manufacturers, working to get mass production and price as favorable as possible, for a release later this year.  The question will be whether the product’s many features make it attractive enough to buy at a premium price.
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vox_mundi

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #386 on: September 21, 2018, 05:34:39 PM »
Improving energy efficiency seems like a better use of investments ...

Solar panels replaced tarmac on a motorway—here are the results
https://phys.org/news/2018-09-solar-panels-tarmac-motorwayhere-results.html

One of the first solar roads to be installed is in Tourouvre-au-Perche, France. This has a maximum power output of 420 kWs, covers 2,800 m² and costed €5m to install. This implies a cost of €11,905 (£10,624) per installed kW.

While the road is supposed to generate 800 kilowatt hours per day (kWh/day), some recently released data indicates a yield closer to 409 kWh/day, or 150,000 kWh/yr. For an idea of how much this is, the average UK home uses around 10 kWh/day. The road's capacity factor – which measures the efficiency of the technology by dividing its average power output by its potential maximum power output – is just 4%.

In contrast, the Cestas solar plant near Bordeaux, which features rows of solar panels carefully angled towards the sun, has a maximum power output of 300,000 kWs and a capacity factor of 14%. And at a cost of €360m (£321m), or €1,200 (£1,070) per installed kW, one-tenth the cost of our solar roadway, it generates three times more power.

... In America, a company called Solar Roadways has developed a smart highway with solar panels, including sensors and LED lights to display traffic warnings about any upcoming hazards, such as a deer. It also has heating pads to melt snow in winter.

Several of their SR3 panels have been installed in a small section of pavement in Sandypoint, Idaho. This is 13.9 m² in area, with an installed capacity of 1.529 KWs. The installation cost is given as $48,734 (about £37,482), which implies a cost per installed kW of €27,500 (£24,542), more than 20 times higher than the Cestas powerplant.

Solar Roadway's own estimates are that the LED lights would consume 106 MWh per lane mile, with the panels generating 415 MWh – so more than 25% of the useful power is consumed by the LEDs. This would reduce performance even further. The heating plates are also quoted as drawing 2.28 MW per lane mile, so running them for just six days would cancel out any net gain from the solar panels.

And this is before we look at the actual data from the Sandypoint installation, which generated 52.397 kWhs in 6 months, or 104.8 kWhs over a year. From this we can estimate a capacity factor of just 0.782%, which is 20 times less efficient than the Cestas power plant.
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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #387 on: September 21, 2018, 06:18:39 PM »
Thanks vox_mundi
This had to be publicity stunt. Any 1st. year physics student could have told them the math just doesn't add up. What a waste.

Reminds me of one of Trump's border wall prototypes that had solar panels mounted almost vertically.  ::)
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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #388 on: September 30, 2018, 08:26:13 PM »
Minimizing bitumen in asphalt road surfaces.

Is it the end of the road for asphalt and concrete?
Quote
Asphalt is particularly prone to potholes and is susceptible to damage from extremes of weather and temperature. And, since bitumen is an oil product, it is not truly sustainable long-term. Both asphalt and concrete road surfaces are also expensive to build and maintain.

In response to these challenges, a number of alternative solutions have been proposed by companies and researchers around the world. What are these alternative road surfaces, and how likely are they to catch on? ...
https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2018/09/is-it-the-end-of-the-road-for-asphalt-and-concrete/
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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #389 on: September 30, 2018, 10:10:40 PM »
Minimizing bitumen in asphalt road surfaces.
Is it the end of the road for asphalt and concrete?https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2018/09/is-it-the-end-of-the-road-for-asphalt-and-concrete/

All 5 "contenders" to replace asphalt and concrete are ridiculous. Maybe they make sense for a little project here are there but at any sort of scale they would be ridiculously expensive (AKA energy intensive).

Concrete roads make sense for the crucial veins of transport, and everything else should be depaved (AKA dirt).
big time oops

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #390 on: October 01, 2018, 12:23:48 AM »
Minimizing bitumen in asphalt road surfaces.
Is it the end of the road for asphalt and concrete?https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2018/09/is-it-the-end-of-the-road-for-asphalt-and-concrete/

All 5 "contenders" to replace asphalt and concrete are ridiculous. Maybe they make sense for a little project here are there but at any sort of scale they would be ridiculously expensive (AKA energy intensive).

Concrete roads Steel Rails make sense for the crucial veins of transport, and everything else should be depaved (AKA dirt) bicycle paths.


Terry

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #391 on: October 01, 2018, 03:07:58 AM »
Terry, I strongly agree. I was just giving my 2 cents if it has to be roads.
big time oops

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #392 on: October 01, 2018, 10:43:30 AM »
Terry, I strongly agree. I was just giving my 2 cents if it has to be roads.


Your's has a (small) possibility of being implemented - mine, not so much.
Trump's 7F will probably prove to be a self fulfilling prophesy, no matter who wins future elections. :-\
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