Could this forum adopt the International System of Units please?

[Bernard]

I thought I had already asked, but can't find the subject now. Maybe I only intended to do it?
This is an international scientific forum, which makes two sufficient reasons to forbid local units such as miles, gallons, Fahrenheit etc.
Is it possible to use only units from the International System of Units in all posts in this Forum?

Note that SI will go through a major revision on 20 May 2019 
https://www.bipm.org/en/CGPM/db/26/1/

[Neven]

It'd be cool if there was some kind of function that automatically converts everything. 

[John_The_Elder]

Define "cool" 0 deg C, 32 deg F or 273.5 deg  K 

[nanning]

It would be cool and appropriate and about time that forummembers from the English language countries (NZL, AU, UK, CAN, USA, SA?, ÉIRE?) would stop using obsolete non-SI units. That group needs to step up to modern standards. The rest of the world is bigger and has moved on.

Are you still able to learn and change?
Try it. It'll only take some effort for a while for the intelligent people of this forum. Then you too will be used to the standard system. PLEASE!

[KiwiGriff]

[be cause]

give him an inch and he'll take a mile .. b.c.

[blumenkraft]

😂

[nanning]

Thanks for the correction KiwiGriff

So my request was directed mainly at our forumfriends from the U.S. of A.
Dear 'americans', PLEASE!

WHY WOULD YOU NOT?
(Sorry for the shouting)

[be cause]

I'm glad I was 9 before I learned of metric . How boring it is compared with the challenges of Imperial measures . Not knowing inches or ounces , furlongs or hundredweights .. how to understand Shakespeare ?   Indeed , Brexit is a rebellion in defence of the pint and the pound as much as it is a political farce . b.c.

[Archimid]

If I asked you to change from metric to imperial, how would you do it?

Just in case, the metric system is the superior system and should be adopted internationally, I just don't know how a society would go about doing that in an orderly fashion.

[Pmt111500]

There's also of course the natural units. But if we set 1613 m = mile and not 1600m, like it is, that might lead to a diminishing of the world and everyone would suffer as it would take longer to walk a mile in other's shoes.

[nanning]

If I asked you to change from metric to imperial, how would you do it?
<snip>

It's easy I think for our forumfriends from the USA:
 There are some calculations involved converting from one to another unit,
 but if you start doing it every time you encounter a non-SI context,
 with doing the calculations in your head (they are simple calculations),
 you get better and better at it.

And some point you'll be SI metrics 'fluent' .

It is how learning works (neuroplasticity). I know you are able to do it. Please try and put in some effort. It'll add to your 'toolbox' .

[Archimid]

If I asked you to change from metric to imperial, how would you do it?

Let me rephrase the question. If I asked your society to change from metric to imperial, how would you do it?

At a society level, how do you ask a whole society to relearn a measuring system? If a law was passed today that banned the use of the metric system and required all new measures to be imperial how would that society?  What do you do with all your metric tools, rulers and books? 

And about neuroplasticity, you go ahead ask an older master in any field you like to change the basic units they work with and see what happens.

I agree that it needs to be done tho. The international system is clearly superior. How many good people are not maximizing their potential because they can't add or subtract fractions when simple decimals do nicely.

[Richard Rathbone]

If I asked you to change from metric to imperial, how would you do it?

Just in case, the metric system is the superior system and should be adopted internationally, I just don't know how a society would go about doing that in an orderly fashion.

It took a couple of generations being taught both systems in school to switch Britain over. Once there are enough customers that want to order goods in grams and metres rather than ounces and yards, commercial forces drive it through rather than resisting the regulation, but it does take a lot of preparatory education and a general political consensus that it needs to be done that is stable for decades.

[KiwiGriff]

We did it in the seventy's along with many other former Commonwealth country's.
NZ was imperial when I went to school in the dark and ignorant  past .
My generation is cursed to going though life converting metric to imperial in our heads on a daily bases.
The next is oblivious to the change.
The USA did have plans to go metric at the same time as us it has never had the will to follow through.

. 

[gerontocrat]

If I asked you to change from metric to imperial, how would you do it?

Just in case, the metric system is the superior system and should be adopted internationally, I just don't know how a society would go about doing that in an orderly fashion.

The UK started to go metric in the middle sixties. We are still at it.

Building industry started about first. I was a student working as a labourer. We started to get designs in metric. They got me to convert it to feet and inches because nobody had got around to getting metric measuring tapes.

You might find in the shops jars of jam of 454 grams. 454 grams = 1 lb.

And draught beer is served in the pubs in pints, while whisky measures are metric.

And distances (road signs et al) are in miles, and no signs a Government would have the nerve to change it.

I think it's great.

So, USA,continue measuring water in acre feet.

[Aluminium]

Units should be explicit. "10°" is not temperature. It's angle. "10°C" or "10°F" or "10 K" is temperature.

[Pmt111500]

Man-measure (mam?) could be a thousandth of the 1613m mile which would mean you'd need ~6,2 million men to reach from equator to the pole. That's an improvement from the last revision where you needed 10Mm to do the same. Of course this conversion should be done to all basic SI-units as well. So an inch would be 2,54577020202 cm instead of 2,5 exact. Sadly this would mean the metre would be 0,9992148042928 of what it is now and we should substract ¾ of an inch to make a 39¼ inch metre. People would be taller when measured in metres and shorter by inches.  Full implications cannot be measured.

Pound should be 455 grams instead of what it is, basing this on electron mass at rest ( , see the joke?) would be way better than basing it to a gmo-grain seed like the big agriculture wants. This would make a kilogram 90g smaller since a pound is 0,5 kilog. Maybe it'd be better to call it twinpound? Twinepound? Twomoneys? This would put me back over 0,9 Htwinpounds, and my doctor said I should be under that, so I should diminish my bindable caloric intake or go for longer walks, the longer mile won't cut calorics so much...

[Tor Bejnar]

I don't mind a day being a day, but why not divide it into 10 hours per day and 100 minutes per hour and 100 seconds per minute.  The 'new seconds' aren't that different from the 'old' ones.  Who would notice? "1,001; 1,002; 1,003", only a little faster!
day (in 'old' seconds) = 24 x 60 x 60 = 86,400 'old' seconds
day (in 'new' seconds) = 10 x 100 x 100 = 100,000 'new' seconds

(100,000-86,400)/86,400 yields a spot over 15% decrease in a second's length, so if your pulse was racing, it will really race under the new system! 70 would replace 60 for a normal pulse.

I figured this out in junior high school     but nobody uses it.   

[Pmt111500]

I don't mind a day being a day, but why not divide it into 10 hours per day and 100 minutes per hour and 100 seconds per minute.  The 'new seconds' aren't that different from the 'old' ones.  Who would notice? "1,001; 1,002; 1,003", only a little faster!
day (in 'old' seconds) = 24 x 60 x 60 = 86,400 'old' seconds
day (in 'new' seconds) = 10 x 100 x 100 = 100,000 'new' seconds

(100,000-86,400)/86,400 yields a spot over 15% decrease in a second's length, so if your pulse was racing, it will really race under the new system! 70 would replace 60 for a normal pulse.

Ah, I prefer 16 or 32 hours per day, but that's only for the education i had in chemistry. If people want, I could present the elemental clock based on this. It's surprisingly accurate and the fastest periods of time decay like they should.

(Modified:) on the dating issue, I'm a dull person. I prefer the astronomical yyyyyy/mm/dd format. 14 months is needed, though, if we want to be accurate.

[charles_oil]

As we are putting pet irritations here - how about the dates...


Is today the 27/10/19 - or 10/27/19 ?


I find Day / Month / Year easiest (and perfectly logical as they are ascending order of size) but the US standard seems to be month / day / year for some reason  -  and of course that is the one overlaid on many of the downloaded images.... 


Obviously when speaking you could equally say "27th of October" or "October the 27th"


aaaaagh - off now for a free extra traditional hour in bed (or 0.041667 of a day....)

[KiwiGriff]

[nanning]

If I asked you to change from metric to imperial, how would you do it?

Let me rephrase the question. If I asked your society to change from metric to imperial, how would you do it?

At a society level, how do you ask a whole society to relearn a measuring system? If a law was passed today that banned the use of the metric system and required all new measures to be imperial how would that society?  What do you do with all your metric tools, rulers and books? 
<snip>

An example:
We in the Netherlands moved from Gulden (1 2.5 5) to Euro (1 2 5) =Gulden * 2.2 from one year to the next. All of the people from the whole of the European monetary union had to change from one year to the next.
OK, money/currency is not a physical measure but what this example does show, is that change can happen fast over the whole population.


But Archimid, We are not asking for the whole of the USA to change,
just our educated, intelligent and science-minded USA forumfriends to change, to adapt, to respect international standardisation.
Just a bit of calculation in your head involved which will get easier the more you do it.

Please don't put it aside but take it serious. The forum will improve. We will thank you .


P.S. more arbitrary units such as 360° for a full circle. it should be 2π

[Pmt111500]

OK, money/currency is not a physical measure but what this example does show, is that change can happen fast over the whole population.

P.S. more arbitrary units such as 360° for a full circle. it should be 2π

Defining moneys by physics is hard. As these are local units of value in a system that is physically connected. Usually money is though used to buy items that have a low entropic value. Some sort of helmhotz/gibbs Energy/negative entropy -based value system (Natural Primary Product, fe.) could be made but this system cannot be used to measure expectations and hopes. Addito, this system does not do well with the fossil fuel fuelled parts of contemporary economics.

2π/365,2524 ≈ 1 day  so 2π ≈ 1 year, agreed. Radial velocity stays the same, though speed varies.

[blumenkraft]

Let me rephrase the question. If I asked your society to change from metric to imperial, how would you do it?

In 2002 Europe switched currency. For most, it was no hassle at all. For some, it was a hassle for a few weeks. For a few idiots, it's still a hassle.

A brain is more flexible than one might think.

[sidd]

There is a barbaric custom in high energy fizix to define h=c=1 (dimensionless)
some go further and define e=1 also

in that spirit  i suggested to some of them hi energy fizicists that  they denotate imaginary numbers in base pi and real numbers in base e

for some reason that never got much support

sidd

[kassy]

In 2002 Europe switched currency. For most, it was no hassle at all.

All the shop items were neatly translated into new prizes in the supermarkets and a bit later the prizes were made logical again 1,87 into 1,95 etc.

But some people had a different system. A buddy of mine went to a coffeeshop of the weedselling type and the owner was on a small ladder taking down the FL signs from the prize list and putting back EUR signs.

I always found this hilarious. 

[nanning]

If you like the old stuff from before the world moved on, why not reinstate the Roman numbers and writing system.
Happy calculating!

[Tor Bejnar]

Nanning,
Ah, but nothing ("0") disappears!
 

[pikaia]

The metric unit of beauty, the milliHelen, defined as the amount of beauty needed to launch a ship, has been strangely neglected.

For reference, this is approximately 21 milliHelens:-

[Bernard]

I had not looked at the answers to this thread for months. I must say I am appalled by the level of answers to what seemed to me a quite serious question. The American-centric view of the world is proudly killing the rest of the planet.

[nanning]

Thanks for your observation Bernard (except the last sentence which is somewhat exaggerated)

Strange isn't it? They are not aware they are doing it I think.

[Pmt111500]

Bernard +1 , we europeans just have to realize they are not going to change their ways of measuring. Evil it is and totally divisive for the westend world, and probably the reason for chinese dominance in manufacturing. But no, they want to do measurements their way, because freedom fries. It's a choice to go down.

For next James Bond, thay could make an American supervillain fail in some European operation because he hasn't got a proper wrench for disabling something.

[Bernard]

Just in case, the metric system is the superior system and should be adopted internationally, I just don't know how a society would go about doing that in an orderly fashion.

99% of societies in the world did it, most of them back in the 19th century. USA is the only standing exception, and seems proud of it. Of all the explanations I try to imagine, the only plausible ones are akin to what made Trump US President. Just incomprehensible by the rest of the world.

[Bernard]

Thanks for your observation Bernard (except the last sentence which is somewhat exaggerated)

Strange isn't it? They are not aware they are doing it I think.

The last sentence is not overstating the way I feel about it. There is a name for it : arrogance. And that's exactly the root of what is about to kill us all, along with a lot of our fellow living creatures.

[philopek]

Thanks for your observation Bernard (except the last sentence which is somewhat exaggerated)

Strange isn't it? They are not aware they are doing it I think.

The last sentence is not overstating the way I feel about it. There is a name for it : arrogance. And that's exactly the root of what is about to kill us all, along with a lot of our fellow living creatures.

Anyone with a clue about developments knows from the past and can currently see that:

- haughtiness comes before the fall

- downward vortex has started 2 decades ago to become obvious and doom is underway

reason why people mostly don't get it is very similar to AGW, process starts very slowly and it will take more than 150 more years and certainly a major collaps to teminate the process.

Has been like that before with all the well known and less known high-cultures/empires.

Measurements are only one of many indications of what has correctly been stated and BTW it does not only apply to that nation, it's just the falling height that is most painful if not deadly and with deadly I mean for a bigger part of the world unfortunately.

This is a painful process and MR. DONALD is a part of it. Or can anyone imagine that this could have happened 40-50 years ago ? NEVER EVER.

People dunno what to do to safe their dwindling customs and standards and The Donald is kind of a fake lifeline or the billy-goat that was made a gardener.

Even though I don't recommend to join the mostly amateurish thread on the topic of how to
prepare for collapse, i very much recommend to think about the topic because it won't take as long as many hope for the next stage to unfold.

[SteveMDFP]

Just in case, the metric system is the superior system and should be adopted internationally, I just don't know how a society would go about doing that in an orderly fashion.

99% of societies in the world did it, most of them back in the 19th century. USA is the only standing exception, and seems proud of it. Of all the explanations I try to imagine, the only plausible ones are akin to what made Trump US President. Just incomprehensible by the rest of the world.

Back in the 1970s, there was a plan for the US to go metric.  What stalled it was, as I recall, simple nationalism.  Yes, a type of arrogance.  Yes, Trump captured almost half of the votes largely by appealing to nationalistic prejudices.  "American exceptionalism" is just another term for nationalism.

In truth, the US is officially "ambidextrous" about this.  Either English or metric measures are legal.  Much US manufacturing and most scientific work are metric.  Both systems are taught in school.  My impression is that more Americans can tell you how many ml are in a liter than can tell you how many ounces in a gallon. 

For this forum, the US sources of data often supply raw information in miles and degrees F.  Completely extinguishing archaic measures in discussions here seems a Sisyphean task.  Heck, we even get knots and nautical miles here.  Those aren't easy for landlubbers anywhere, US or EU.  Humor and satire on the subject seem entirely appropriate.

[nanning]

^^

Completely extinguishing archaic measures in discussions here seems a Sisyphean task.

I disagree. This forum is a special educated group and converting is a simple task. Just a bit of effort.

Maybe I'll post the SI untis when I encounter a non-SI post.

P.S. I don't think humor is appropriate although I like the humor. This is serious

[longwalks1]

Back in the 1970's

Yes Representative Chuck Grassley parleyed every swing vote he had into support for his bill to kill the metric system in weather reporting and transportation.  Anyone that is against simplifying the math would be a shoo-in to be Senate Finance chair someday.  And of course he has been 2001-2010 and again resuming with Trump.  Don't get me started on Steve King.   

Side issue, the usOfa is increasingly governed by gerrymandered dotards. 

[KiwiGriff]

This forum is a special educated group

I don't think those words mean what you think they mean.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_education

[gerontocrat]

^^

Completely extinguishing archaic measures in discussions here seems a Sisyphean task.

I disagree. This forum is a special educated group and converting is a simple task. Just a bit of effort.

Maybe I'll post the SI untis when I encounter a non-SI post.

P.S. I don't think humor is appropriate although I like the humor. This is serious

This is serious? Nope. Except when someone tells me I must do something, auto-response is rebelllion. Looking up cubits and hands as a last ditch resistance to the demand to conform.

[Tor Bejnar]

When I (an American) was a student in metric dominated New Zealand, I remember being asked my weight which I'd learned in kilograms (which is mass, not weight, but I won't quibble - newtons, anybody?), but they wanted to know in stone, because that was the only human weight context they knew.  So I had to learn a new system.  (I remember seeing a bathroom scale that showed stone in someone's home once.)

[nanning]

Thank you KiwiGriff. I should've put that differently. Still I think the message is clear, don't you think?

Dear gerontocrat, it is not a need. It is no demand. Sorry if I misled you with calling it "serious".

It is not necessary. It is just. It is about communicating and respect for the majority and standards.

[greylib]

I'm British, 72 years old (almost). I grew up under the imperial system:

12 inches = 1 foot; 3 feet = 1 yard; 22  yards = 1 chain; 10 chains = 1 furlong; 8 furlongs = 1 mile.
12 pence = 1 shilling; 20 shillings = 1 pound sterling; 21 shillings = 1 guinea.
16 ounces = 1 pound; 14 pounds = 1 stone; 8 stones = 1 hundredweight; 20 hundredweights = 1 ton.
and so on

It didn't make a lot of sense to me, and I sighed with relief when decimalisation came in. BUT... at primary school we did a lot of mental arithmetic: "what's a third of a pound - six shillings and eight pence"; "how many square feet in an acre - 43,560"; "how many fluid ounces in a barrel - 5,760". Ok, most of us needed pencil and paper for the last two, but all but a few were quite able to do this stuff at age 10.

When schools were relieved of this burden, they could have expanded teaching of literature, science, languages. Instead they seem to have filled up the time with cutting shapes out of coloured paper and finger painting. So did the more difficult system train our brains better? Probably not, otherwise American kids would be streets ahead of Europeans, which doesn't appear to be the case.

One non-SI unit I can make a case for - the temperature scale. We use Celsius, based on the freezing and boiling points of water, split into 100 steps of 1 degree. Fahrenheit used the interval between the lowest temperature he could reach, and human body temperature (he must have been running a slight fever that day). The result is a scale which covers all the temperatures we normally encounter weatherwise. That's what we mostly use temperatures for, and it's meaningful. Temperature in the 30s - icy; in the 40s - chilly; in the 50s - cool; in the 60s - warm; in the 70s - hot. With Celsius, most of the day-to-day temperatures are in the bottom third of the scale, with some leaking down to minus. Is that logical? Or is it a case, as the Americans say, "that's what we're used to, so we're sticking with it."

[kassy]

The measure that needs translating most is temperature. If the quoted source is F i will often provide the translations to C.

I grew up with that so i really don´t see the advantage in F. In C world:
0C and below freezing, possibly yammering about elfstedentocht
10C and a bit below is where are my gloves
20C+ is nice and
30C plus is too warm
40C plus is crazy hot

The forum members use metric units in discussion (no one ever mentioned stones of ice volume or something like that) so the problem is with articles.

And if i was american i would probably not think of translating such a familiar measure.

he must have been running a slight fever that day

The temperature difference being exactly 64 makes for nice divisions on instrument panels.

I had not looked at the answers to this thread for months. I must say I am appalled by the level of answers to what seemed to me a quite serious question.

It is a non issue and we need some comic relief on some threads...

[vox_mundi]

Strange, Funny and Baffling Units for Measuring Almost Anything
https://royal.pingdom.com/strange-funny-and-baffling-units-for-measuring-almost-anything/

List of Unusual Units of Measurement
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unusual_units_of_measurement
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_humorous_units_of_measurement

and if you can't find what your looking for ...


Penn & Teller Explains Numbers

[Herfried]

I somehow can understand the logics in Farenheit.
Above 100 is really hot, below zero ist deep, cold winter.
But is it really necessary to spread the scale by 1.8, compared to Celsius?
If there is a meteorological, agricultural, gardening, all day life key temperature, then it is freezing. 32 F...what a number...
But 0 C that helps. A minus... care for your plants. A pkus no problem.
And really nasty cold? -10, and - 20 does agricultiral damage.
+ 10, yeah these cold spring and autum days, you still.need warm clothes. But as mirning temperature decent.
+ 15 as max, ok, first time you need less warm clothes, mild weather. As morning temperature this is summer, soon the sun will be sizzling hot.
+ 20 warm, T-shirt. And a tropical hot night during the hottest summer daya.
+ 25 swimming weather, summer is here. As mirning temperature... ridiculous.
+ 30 hot summer day, go swimming and for ice cream
+ 35 extremely hot, people will start complaining
+ 40 near our records, most people complain
+ 45 you may feel it in you hilidays at the mediterranean... dangerous.
+ 50 You are in death valley, Iraq or Kuwait or in a mild sauna.

[Pmt111500]

Fahrenheit was a troll. DNFTT. 250 degrees F is a very hot sauna, when risk of skinburns from condensing water is rather large, and 0 F is about the coldest when rolling in the snow is still sensible, risk of instant Skin necrosis is minimal, but other than that, I don't see it much of use. Mile on the other hand is a quarter of an hour of well-paced walking for me so in the 16 hour-system I could expect to walk 6 miles/hour. This of course is not possible but I could expect that. A mile makes sense unlike Fahrenheit that can be used only on couple of extreme naked-skin situations.

[kassy]

One can only wonder what the scale would have looked like if he had ended up in Finland instead of the Netherlands. 

[gerontocrat]

Since it ain't gonna happen, people might need a bit of help o find the way through the maze of different measurement systems.

Two sites I find useful...

https://cdiac.ess-dive.lbl.gov/pns/convert.html#2.
Carbon Dioxide Information Analysis Center - Conversion Tables

Tables attached.

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/units-and-calculators/energy-conversion-calculators.php
Units and calculators explained
Energy conversion calculators

Calculators for energy used in the United States
Coal
Electricity
Natural gas
Crude oil
Gasoline
Diesel fuel and heating oil
Measuring energy in food—food calories versus energy calories
Scientific notation explained—E+10