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Author Topic: Project Vesta - CO2 Removal With Enhanced Weathering of Olivine  (Read 1927 times)

Freegrass

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Capturing a trillion tonnes of excess CO2 in rock using the power of natural wave energy

https://projectvesta.org/

Project Vesta is a non-profit, founded on Earth Day 2019. Our vision is to help reverse climate change by turning a trillion tonnes of CO2 into rock. We will do this using the power of natural wave energy at green sand beaches. Today, we know that reducing carbon dioxide emissions alone will not be enough to solve the climate crisis: we need to remove carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. Fortunately, nature already has a way, billions of years old, to do this – by weathering volcanic minerals. When rain falls on volcanic rocks and washes them into the ocean, this causes a reaction which removes CO2 from the atmosphere and locks it up in limestone at the bottom of the ocean.

Accelerating a Natural Process

Project Vesta’s approach dramatically accelerates this ancient natural process. We make green-sand beaches with an abundant volcanic mineral, olivine. There, wave action speeds up the carbon dioxide capture process while de-acidifying the ocean. Thirty years of scientific research has demonstrated that this works and has provided strong evidence that it is a highly affordable and scalable solution. The process captures 20 times more carbon dioxide than the extraction and transportation of the olivine. If deployed on just 2% of global shelf seas, could capture 100% of annual human emissions.

An Open-Source Scientific Approach

Our mission is to further the science of enhanced weathering and galvanize global deployment. To that end, we are planning experiments to pilot green-sand beaches. All scientists in the field are welcome to contribute to the design of these experiments, and all are welcome to analyze the resulting data. Once we have finished the experiments and published the data, we will be able to deliver to the world a blueprint and integrated model for deploying green sand beaches. The Enhanced Weathering Integrated Assessment Model (EWIAM) will enable any government or private organization to measurably remove carbon dioxide from the atmosphere at scale.

History - Where We Came From

Project Vesta was born out of a climate change think-tank called Climitigation. This group investigated as many carbon capture solutions as possible, searching for one that had received too little attention and investment. Climitigation found that coastal enhanced weathering was a process with enormous potential for cheap, permanent carbon capture at massive scale. Further, they found that the technology was stuck in the lab, despite real-life beach pilots being the clear next step. No one was bringing together the combination of multidisciplinary science, government support, funding, and sheer force of will that would help this technology ‘cross the chasm’ between theory and maturity. Project Vesta was founded to do exactly this.

The Project Vesta Ethos

We are an open-source project. The work we do will be available to all in service of maximum speed and efficacy of global deployment. We are doing this for the planet, not for ourselves or for any individuals.

We are fundamentalists about our commitment to scientific rigor. We believe that the path to global scale is paved with robust science, transparency, and the credibility that comes from these.

We consider the entire life-cycle of the impacts of our actions. We aim to capture 20 times the CO2 we emit. We measure the ecological effects of our entire process from quarries to marine ecosystems, and wherever possible seek to have a regenerative effect on local ecosystems and communities.

Scale is paramount. Our goal is to remove tens of gigatons of carbon dioxide per year. We believe that to be seriously impactful, CO2 removal solutions must be able to achieve gigaton+ scale by 2030.

Inspiration

The team would like to thank R.D. Schuiling and Poppe De Boer, whose passion for olivine weathering and insightful research provided significant inspiration for the Project Vesta vision, and whose work in many ways continues to guide this promising field.

How It Works
« Last Edit: June 09, 2020, 07:15:47 PM by Freegrass »
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Bruce Steele

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Re: Project Vesta - An Olivine Solution
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2020, 11:08:10 PM »
Freegrass, If the Olivine does capture twenty times as much CO2 as is emitted in mining and transportation does the Olivine mined come precrushed to sand particle size or is that an additional cost, milling Olivine . The next question is how long does it take to break down enough olivine to offset the initial carbon costs of mining and transport ?  I suspect the initial carbon costs take a long time to recoup so you would be trading the almost instantaneous CO2 heating costs with long term carbon drawdown.
 I am supportive of the concept because it both draws down atmospheric and ocean carbon. I don’t see any downside to experimental trials but it would be nice to see a science paper . Are there olivine beaches currently sinking carbon ?  Since rivers are naturally more acidic than seawater wouldn’t olivine added to low pH riverine water dissolve faster ?

Freegrass

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Re: Project Vesta - An Olivine Solution
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2020, 11:21:27 PM »
That's why I made this thread Bruce. Let's all figure it out together. I saw this on Belgian TV news some months ago, and I loved it. I think it could be a solution.

Today I found this project while searching for that Belgian project. I know this is important. That's why we need to learn more about this. I don't have all the answers right now. So let's all do this together and get to work!  8)
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Re: Project Vesta - An Olivine Solution
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2020, 01:11:40 AM »
Ever been to a green sand beach? The newest geohack to fight climate change

Project Vesta is conducting an experiment by spreading a green mineral on beaches, where its interaction with the waves will pull carbon from the air.

05-29-20



On a beach in the Caribbean, a nonprofit called Project Vesta will soon begin testing a radical new way to fight climate change that involves spreading ground-up olivine—a cheap green mineral—over the sand, where ocean waves will break down the mineral, which in turn will pull CO2 from the air. “Our vision is to help reverse climate change by turning a trillion tons of carbon dioxide into rock,” says Tom Green, executive director of Project Vesta.

The idea is to speed up a natural process that normally takes place very slowly, over geological time. “When rain falls on volcanic rocks, those rocks dissolve a little bit, and it triggers a chemical reaction that pulls carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere and into the water as a molecule called bicarbonate,” Green says. Grinding up olivine, and then spreading it on beaches where ocean waves can further break it down, triggers the same chemical reaction that pulls CO2 out of the air. In the water, marine organisms use the bicarbonate to build shells, and it will eventually end up as limestone on the floor of the ocean.



Past studies have theorized that the process works, but until now, no one has attempted to actually do it on beaches. “About 30 years of scientific research has gone into this, including a lot of theoretical work, a lot of lab experiments,” Green says. “Where we came along was to say, why is this stuck in the lab? We need real-life beach experiments to prove that this actually works in the wild . . . We exist to cross that chasm between the world of academia, which was doing a lot of theoretical experiments, and ultimately, the government and privately funded rollout.”

The nonprofit came out of a think tank called Climitigation that worked to identify solutions for climate change that had large-scale potential but little investment so far. “This particular technology was the one that really bubbled to the top of the list as having really a lot of potential to help reverse climate change, and having had relatively little investments that have gone into it,” he says. Project Vesta now has one early funder: Stripe, the credit card processing company, which pledged last year to begin spending $1 million a year on “negative emissions,” or carbon removal technologies. The nonprofit is now working to raise another $1.5 million for its early experiments.



There are potential ecological challenges that could come from spreading a rock on beaches where it wouldn’t naturally exist. Some critics raise the possibility that the olivine could release heavy metals such as nickel, although Green says that nickel released into the water is not bioavailable, meaning that it shouldn’t impact marine species. But the initial pilot will closely monitor metal concentrations in the water, sand, and tissues of local organisms, as it seeks to fully understand all of the impacts of the intervention. It’s possible that the process may benefit marine life because it also helps fight ocean acidification; excess CO2 is making the ocean so acidic that the shells of animals like the Dungeness crab are beginning to dissolve, but the bicarbonate produced by weathering rock helps reduce acidity.

Later this year, pending some coronavirus-related delays and additional fundraising, the nonprofit plans to begin testing the process at a cove on an undisclosed Caribbean island, and it will compare the results to another nearby cove without the treatment. While it still remains to be proven, if it works, it has some advantages over other approaches for removing carbon. New direct air capture facilities are expensive; restoring forests can help, but isn’t necessarily a permanent form of carbon capture if forests later burn or trees are cut down. The nonprofit projects that olivine can be mined and brought to beaches at a cost of $10 per ton of carbon captured. Ocean waves naturally do the rest of the work. “That would be by far the cheapest permanent method of carbon capture,” he says. “And it’s also a way that’s very scalable, because once we’ve completed our experiments, we’ll have the blueprint, and we’ll be able to say to any government, any company in the world, here’s how you do it.”

If it finds proof that the process works, Project Vesta plans to share open-source instructions to replicate. Done at scale on beaches and in the shallow water on continental shelves, it could make a major difference. “If we spread olivine over 2% of the world’s shelf sea, then that will be enough to capture 100% of human emissions,” Green says.
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Freegrass

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Re: Project Vesta - An Olivine Solution
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2020, 01:22:49 AM »
Stripe picks $1 mln in carbon-removal projects to spur industry

SAN FRANCISCO, May 18 (Reuters) - The billionaire brothers who control San Francisco-based online payments company Stripe are spending a quarter of a million dollars to import special sand to a remote Caribbean beach.

But founders Patrick and John Collison are not creating a waterfront hideaway. Instead, Stripe is supporting a radical approach to fighting climate change. The beach project - taking coarse-milled olivine to the water’s edge so the waves can grind it up, allowing the ocean to absorb more carbon - is one of four investments in carbon removal Stripe will announce today.

Another technology deal will fund putting carbon into concrete to strengthen it, while a third takes biomass that would decompose and spew carbon - such as almond shells - and produces bio-oil for burial far underground.

Stripe is spending $1 million all told, following CEO Patrick Collison’s August pledge that instead of buying cheap carbon offsets, such as those from landowners who agree not to cut trees, the company would pay much more for innovative methods to get carbon dioxide out of the air.

Some studies here have found that a majority of offsets used for regulatory compliance or tax breaks do not measurably and effectively improve the air, even if they let companies claim to be carbon neutral.

Instead of looking for the cheapest “negative ton” offsets for carbon emissions, which can cost as little as $10, Stripe will pay as much as $800 per ton for promising new approaches.

Project co-leaders Ryan Orbuch and Nan Ransohoff approached the task like venture capitalists.

“We’re looking for underfunded and underinvested-in areas, relative to their importance in fighting climate change,” said Ransohoff. “That’s pushed us toward more early-stage stuff.”

But the projects had to have a plausible path to neutralizing large amounts of carbon at low cost, Orbuch said.

Stripe is far from the first to sponsor carbon removal, which can take a multitude of forms, from tree-planting to fans sucking carbon dioxide from smokestacks or the open air.

But the collective scale of existing projects is orders of magnitude from where the experts say it needs be in 2050. They say there is no way to limit temperature increases to those in the global Paris agreement without massive carbon removal on top of emission reduction.

“The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change says this thing is very important, and yet nobody is commercially funding this,” Collison told Reuters.

Some environmentalists have faulted alternative carbon-removal efforts as a distraction from emission cuts.

Though he had not reviewed Stripe’s projects, Carroll Muffett of the nonprofit Center for International Environmental Law warned that direct air capture consumes too much energy to be efficient, while mineralization projects like the olivine plan would require mining on a scale rivaling the coal industry to attain global impact.

“It is best understood as a public relations stunt,” Muffett said of Stripe’s initiative.

Stripe’s money alone is a pittance, but the company believes its approach can act like a multiplier. Stripe will publish its criteria and the detailed explanations it required of the more than 20 applicants for funding, a level of transparency that has excited such experts as Steven Hamburg, chief scientist at the Environmental Defense Fund.

“We have to help catalyze the research and development and the learning, so we really understand what are options are,” said Hamburg, a lead author at the IPCC, co-winner of the 2007 Nobel Peace Prize.

Stripe is already having an impact. Microsoft was struck by Collison’s promise to spend more than necessary in hopes of spurring innovation. Microsoft later said it would invest $1 billion on carbon removal.

“It’s terrific to see companies like Stripe making bold commitments about carbon removal,” said Microsoft spokeswoman Jennifer Crider.

TAKING CARBON OUT OF THE AIR

Though forestry projects are popular, their success is hard to measure, Stripe’s advisors warned. Someone promising not to cut trees might drive up the price for that kind of tree, prompting others to sell.

So Stripe moved toward four projects outside of forestry.

One of them, Switzerland-based ClimeWorks, is one of the three best-known startups that take carbon straight out the air.

ClimeWorks’ biggest plant is in Iceland, where it takes advantage of geothermal heart for energy to bury carbon 900 meters underground.

Stripe is one of a handful of corporate customers for negative emissions and will help fund a new plant about five times as big, said founder Jan Wurzbacher.

The second is eight-year-old CarbonCure Technologies, which puts carbon into concrete. CarbonCure’s method is used in 285 concrete plants.

The venture-backed Canadian company excited Stripe’s advisors because the concrete industry is one of the largest contributors of greenhouse gases, and because the technology makes financial sense even before government subsidies for emission reductions.

Though CarbonCure’s investors include Microsoft and Amazon founders Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos, Stripe is doing something new, paying not for stock or the technology but for the carbon elimination.

“It’s creating a market,” said Robert Niven, founder and chief executive, who will use the money to win more customers, hopefully for negative emissions as well as concrete technology.

The third recipient is a San Francisco-based vendor called Charm Industrial, a for-profit launched two years ago by the CEO of Segment, a private software company valued at more than $1 billion.

Inspired by Stripe’s call to come up with another alternative, Charm will produce bio-oil from biomass that would otherwise decompose, then sequester it underground. (Burying the matter directly would take too much energy and let it produce methane, which does even more harm to the atmosphere than carbon dioxide.)

And the last is the olivine project, known as Project Vesta. Vesta is a nonprofit started last year by founders including Eric Matzner, a self-described “biohacker” whose main company makes cognitive supplements.

Matzner’s application promises to use Stripe’s money to take its experiments with olivine out of the lab and to the Caribbean beach.

In seawater, olivine minerals form solid carbon compounds and also reduce the water’s acidity, so it can absorb more carbon dioxide from the air.

The trick is that milling the stone to create more surface area and accelerate the erosion consumes energy that might come from fossil fuels.

Vesta wants to harness natural wave power. With Stripe as its first customer, it will spread olivine on the beach and see if the water can grind it down enough to speed up de-acidification.

“Mineral weathering is an idea that’s only now emerging,” said Hamburg of the Environmental Defense Fund. “It clearly works, but when, where and how, and how does the economics work? That becomes the key.”

Reporting by Joseph Menn; Editing by Greg Mitchell and Edward Tobin
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Freegrass

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Re: Project Vesta - An Olivine Solution
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2020, 01:35:12 AM »
Co-Action carbon capture project opens new field plots

15 MAY 2020

Yesterday, EIT Climate-KIC community member ‘Co-Action,’ a carbon capture project using the natural mineral olivine, opened its new field plots in the Netherlands.

In 2016, EIT Climate-KIC supported a project called ‘Natural minerals for sustainable operations’ by helping to build a consortia and by providing funding. The project explored the use of olivine to significantly (net) capture atmospheric CO2. Since then, the project was carried forward by Dr Jos Vink, Senior Specialist, Sediment and Water Quality, Deltares, and his team. The latest iteration has been running since last summer and is called ‘Co-Action.’

Olivine is one of the most common minerals on Earth, composing 60 to 80 per cent of its upper mantle. It reacts with CO2 to form carbonate minerals. The more surface area exposed to air, the faster carbon dioxide can be absorbed, therefore the olivine is crushed into small bits. One pound of olivine can absorb as much as one pound of carbon dioxide from the air.

Ground olivine is an excellent substitute for sand, for example, in infrastructural works and green areas. Over 853,000 tonnes of CO2 could potentially be captured in small-scale applications in Rotterdam civil construction projects. Scaling up to the national level could result in a capture comparable to annual freight traffic emissions. Previous studies have shown that dredging work can be carried out climate-neutrally using olivine. Additionally, the ‘waste’ product is acid-neutral and can be reused in agriculture. Other pilots show the application of olivine can be a substitute for lime and/or magnesium fertiliser in green and agricultural applications, resulting in added value.

‘Natural minerals for sustainable operations’ focused primarily removing bottlenecks that hamper large-scale applications of olivine. These bottlenecks are:

  • The uncertainty of weathering rates of the mineral in various infrastructural works and green projects

  • Emissions risk of nickel trapped in the mineral

The weathering rate of olivine, and thus the effectiveness of CO2 sequestration, is determined by the grain size and environmental conditions. The release of nickel is directly related to this. Weathering rates of olivine had been quantified by some research groups, but had not yet been sufficiently field-validated at the time of the initial project.

CO2 capture by olivine needs to be quantified in a substantiated way in order to be coherent with emissions reduction targets. Priority can be given to projects where benefits can be combined, such as replacing conventional building materials (sand, gravel) or fertilisers (lime, magnesium), combating acidification and making dredged material reusable.

‘Natural minerals for sustainable operations’ is just one of the many land-use innovation projects EIT Climate-KIC has contributed to over the past ten years. During a recent Climathon, EIT Climate-KIC’s global hackathon for climate change solutions, the team ‘Deep Demo Puertos,’ whose challenge was to help the Port of Valencia achieve net-zero emissions by 2030, proposed using olivine to capture CO2 and regenerate beaches near the port. The team is made up of Adrián Mota, Anna Tolosa, Guillem Gil, Javi González, Susana Galera and Lola Bordás, who also participated in the 2019 edition of EIT Climate-KIC’s Pioneers Into Practice programme.

Recently, EIT Climate-KIC made the pivot from single-point innovations towards whole systems change in land use, cities, industry and finance. But, no organisation or country can change these systems on its own—changing everything requires ambitious, interdisciplinary collaboration. That’s why EIT Climate-KIC is bringing together its global community of knowledge institutes, policymakers, large and small organisations, start-ups and students to work on innovative solutions.

EIT Climate-KIC’s systems change approach is embodied in its Deep Demonstrations, which launched in 2019. These are living labs where the above-mentioned parties work together to come up with new insights, devise solutions and implement them jointly. The Deep Demonstration ‘Landscapes as Carbon Sinks‘ is one of the eight living labs. Just like how olivine is used, it focuses on leveraging similar nature-based solutions—such as afforestation and reforestation—for carbon sequestration. It also aims to maximise the impact of sustainable forest management, strengthen the effectiveness of farm-to-fork circuits and enhance the implementation of agroecology practices.

Contact landscapes@climate-kic.org to get involved.
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Tor Bejnar

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Re: Project Vesta - Olivine Solutions
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2020, 07:11:15 AM »
From Quora:
Quote
Olivine reacts with CO2 through the following reactions:

CO2 is in equilibrium with the (rain) water:

CO2 + H2O <=> H+ + HCO3-

The acidity (H+, carbonic acid) reacts with the Olivine:

Mg2SiO4 + 4 H+ => 2 Mg2+ + H4SiO4 (silicic acid).

Depending on the concentrations the following reactions can occur:

HCO3- => H+ + CO3 2-

Mg2+ + CO3 2- => MgCO3 (solid)

H4SiO4 => SiO2 + 2 H2O

Please not the formed silica is not Quartz (is not crystalline), but amorphous Silica

So water is required, without water the CO2 will react very, very slow with Olivine.

With water the reaction is fast (geologically speaking). Between 1 to 10 micrometer per year (depending on pH, agitation, temperature etc.)
[emphasis added]
The weathering of olivine is a grain ("sand grain") surface phenomenon.  Therefore, the faster you want the reaction to happen with a set amount (mass) of rock or length of shore, the finer you want to ground the olivine (and, frequently, the more CO2 used to achieve this).  Fine silt and clay sized olivine particles (4 micrometers [+/- ] in diameter [1/256 mm diameter divides  clay size from silt]) will be completely used up in a mater of months or years, while very coarse sand (1 - 2 mm diameter) will take 50-1000 years.  If your precious bits of olivine are to be actually weathered, and not buried in a transgressing shoreline (due to sea level rise), you'll want to use finer sediment size.
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Re: Project Vesta - Olivine Solutions
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2020, 11:02:17 AM »

The weathering of olivine is a grain ("sand grain") surface phenomenon.  Therefore, the faster you want the reaction to happen with a set amount (mass) of rock or length of shore, the finer you want to ground the olivine (and, frequently, the more CO2 used to achieve this).  Fine silt and clay sized olivine particles (4 micrometers [+/- ] in diameter [1/256 mm diameter divides  clay size from silt]) will be completely used up in a mater of months or years, while very coarse sand (1 - 2 mm diameter) will take 50-1000 years.  If your precious bits of olivine are to be actually weathered, and not buried in a transgressing shoreline (due to sea level rise), you'll want to use finer sediment size.

It turns out that bacteria rather effectively break down olivine.  It breaks down well in soil. 

Microbial Acceleration of Olivine Dissolution via Siderophore Production
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1878522014001039

"Preliminary results show that microbial Fe-binding ligands (i.e. siderophores) can accelerate olivine dissolution rates stoichiometrically by almost an order of magnitude in experiments buffered at circumneutral pH."

This is a laboratory study.  I recall reading of a field study confirming the action of bacteria and fungi.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2020, 12:51:29 AM by SteveMDFP »

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Re: Project Vesta - Olivine Solutions
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2020, 01:23:01 PM »
Playing as the Devil's advocate here, I'm wondering what kind of side effects would the industrial scale olivine weathering have. Volume would be massive:

Quote
7 km^3 volume of olivine rock would be crushed and milled to grains of around 100 mm in diameter. If 7 km^3 is spread over an area of 10 million km^2, it will occupy a layer of 0.7-mm thickness. Grains of olivine of 100 mm will weather in approximately 5 years in tropical soils. It will, therefore, be cheaper to spread a layer of 3.5-mm thickness each year over an area of 2 million km^2, shift to the next area in the following year, and come back to the first after 5 years

What would be the effect on the ecosystems of said 10 million km2 of tropical beaches?


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Re: Project Vesta - Olivine Solutions
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2020, 01:37:20 PM »
Can we not just grind the olivine using solar or wind power?
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Re: Project Vesta - Olivine Solutions
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2020, 01:55:44 PM »
We need to bring CO2 emissions down. Not up.

Crushing stones would produce mountains of additional CO2.

If you use solar or wind, the other energy users will use gas/oil/etc, because there ain't enough panels and turbines.

Meaning, a Perpetuum Mobile does not exist and this is bullshit (at least until we are not at 100% renewables for all sectors)!

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Re: Project Vesta - Olivine Solutions
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2020, 02:06:56 PM »
I agree with BK. Burning fossils and offsetting this by olivine extraction will get us nowhere. That's the underlying problem in all CCS / geoengineering proposals.

Replacing fossil fuel extraction with olivine extraction would be a step ahead. But even then we would have the biodiversity issues to take care of.

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Re: Project Vesta - Olivine Solutions
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2020, 02:13:34 PM »
Good point. It not only increases CO2 emissions, it makes the human footprint bigger in general.

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Re: Project Vesta - Olivine Solutions
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2020, 02:42:25 PM »
Of course the first thing that needs to be done is to get to a 100% renewable energy but then we are still emitting CO2 (from making concrete etc).

Also from earth responses (the ice, siberia melting etc) we can already tell that +1C was the actual safe border we should have aimed for so we already need to remove a whole bunch of CO2 from the atmosphere. And if there is a method that is both easy, harmless and ready to use that would be great.

Olivine might be a good way. I have a newspaper clipping somewhere about some dutch companies doing innovative things for climate and one of them was doing something with olivine too. I think they ground it using renewable energy. It was not to be put into beaches but i can´t remember what uses they had in mind.


 

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Re: Project Vesta - Olivine Solutions
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2020, 03:23:48 PM »
Good point. It not only increases CO2 emissions, it makes the human footprint bigger in general.
No it doesn't. Not if you build up the capture gradually. It's simple exponential math with a factor of 20.
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Re: Project Vesta - Olivine Solutions
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2020, 03:31:32 PM »
So how would it be possible to literally move whole mountains, crush them with machines, and then move the product to places all around the world without producing a footprint or CO2 emissions?

Freegrass

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Re: Project Vesta - Olivine Solutions
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2020, 03:39:47 PM »
Olivine (or peridot) can be found all over the world. This website has a map and list of places where it can be found.

https://www.mindat.org/min-7710.html
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Re: Project Vesta - Olivine Solutions
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2020, 03:45:20 PM »
This isn't answering my question, FG.  :P

So how would it be possible to literally move whole mountains all around the world, crush them with machines, and then move the product around without producing a footprint or CO2 emissions?

Freegrass

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Re: Project Vesta - Olivine Solutions
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2020, 03:54:18 PM »
It doesn't matter where you capture CO2. CO2 is everywhere. So you capture it close to the mining sites, which are located all over the world.

You start small. and then you go times 20, and then times 400, and then times 160.000, etc...

The only CO2 you put into the atmosphere is at the start. After that, you keep gaining...

Come on guys. Even I can do this simple math. Nobody is saying we're going to mine all the Olivine we need at the front end. That would be insanity! This needs to be build up gradually.

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Re: Project Vesta - Olivine Solutions
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2020, 03:58:58 PM »
This isn't answering my question, FG.  :P

So how would it be possible to literally move whole mountains all around the world, crush them with machines, and then move the product around without producing a footprint or CO2 emissions?
,
It isn't, but they claim olivine weathering will eventually capture 20 times more CO2 than it's extraction and processing produces. So in the end of the day the whole operation is carbon negative.

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Re: Project Vesta - Olivine Solutions
« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2020, 04:05:01 PM »
... they claim ...

Exactly. And i don't buy it. :)

If the math turns out to be correct i can change my mind.  ;)

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Re: Project Vesta - An Olivine Solution
« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2020, 04:34:42 PM »

The idea is to speed up a natural process that normally takes place very slowly, over geological time. “When rain falls on volcanic rocks, those rocks dissolve a little bit, and it triggers a chemical reaction that pulls carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere and into the water as a molecule called bicarbonate,” Green says. Grinding up olivine, and then spreading it on beaches where ocean waves can further break it down, triggers the same chemical reaction that pulls CO2 out of the air. In the water, marine organisms use the bicarbonate to build shells, and it will eventually end up as limestone on the floor of the ocean.



This part of the article gives pause to consider the claims.

Bicarbonate (HCO3-) is not used to build sea organism shells. That is the work of calcium carbonate (CaCO3).

High CO2 levels results in more H+ ions in the ocean and the resultant decrease in pH aka ocean acidification.

The increase of H+ ions is stealing from the available pool of carbonate ions (CO3 -2) to form more HCO3 (bicarbonate) and make less carbonate available to form calcium carbonate.

I don't see how a process which adds more bicarbonate (HCO3-) is helpful to marine organisms.


Freegrass

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Re: Project Vesta - Olivine Solutions
« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2020, 05:03:50 PM »
That's why they need to start a small scale project Phoenix, to study the impact on the environment.
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Re: Project Vesta - Olivine Solutions
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2020, 05:48:16 PM »
For those looking for scientific research papers on this topic, the search term best used it seems is Enhanced weathering olivine.
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Re: Project Vesta - Olivine Solutions
« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2020, 06:17:41 PM »
The process of enhanced weathering of olivine is meant to mimic the natural processes of rain erosion of minerals carried to sea as bicarbonate . The natural processes are slow but the addition of bicarbonates adds alkalinity and alkalinity changes the aragonite omega  .  So seawater with a higher amount of alkalinity can still support shell growth . Adding bicarbonate is a good thing to do if aragonite saturation is < 1.7 omega in oyster aquaculture.  So although calcium carbonate is the carbonate form favored for shell growth additions of bicarbonate can affect it’s availability.
 

Phoenix

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Re: Project Vesta - Olivine Solutions
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2020, 07:52:14 PM »
The process of enhanced weathering of olivine is meant to mimic the natural processes of rain erosion of minerals carried to sea as bicarbonate . The natural processes are slow but the addition of bicarbonates adds alkalinity and alkalinity changes the aragonite omega  .  So seawater with a higher amount of alkalinity can still support shell growth . Adding bicarbonate is a good thing to do if aragonite saturation is < 1.7 omega in oyster aquaculture.  So although calcium carbonate is the carbonate form favored for shell growth additions of bicarbonate can affect it’s availability.

It's hard to imagine how much olivine would have to be added to the open ocean in order to materially change pH levels sufficiently to change the equilibrium of these chemical reactions. And then you need to consider what impact the increased magnesium ion concentration and trace metal additions would have on the ecosystem.

At the surface, I'm not super fond of trying to manage the earth's temperature via ocean chemistry experimentation. This is super dense stuff, the totality of which is way beyond my pay grade.   

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Re: Project Vesta - CO2 Removal With Enhanced Weathering of Olivine
« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2020, 09:05:03 PM »
Phoenix, I agree.
Scale
Very hard to recapture carbon in long term sinks. Local  solutions like augmenting embayed water for aquaculture either biologically or by adding minerals is still worthy of experiment. Problems will be local long before they are universal. Pacific oysters are having trouble in the Calif. Current but not everywhere they are grown.
 Most of the heat from global warming has gone into the oceans and in the long run almost all the additional carbon we add will end up there also. We need to stop the ongoing experiment but   everyone wants more not less.
 I would like to think minimalism is a worthy pursuit .
 

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Re: Project Vesta - CO2 Removal With Enhanced Weathering of Olivine
« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2020, 10:59:06 PM »
Potential and costs of carbon dioxide removal by enhanced weathering of rocks
Published 5 March 2018
Jessica Strefler, Thorben Amann, Nico Bauer, Elmar Kriegler and Jens Hartmann

Abstract
The chemical weathering of rocks currently absorbs about 1.1 Gt CO2 a−1 being mainly stored as bicarbonate in the ocean. An enhancement of this slow natural process could remove substantial amounts of CO2 from the atmosphere, aiming to offset some unavoidable anthropogenic emissions in order to comply with the Paris Agreement, while at the same time it may decrease ocean acidification. We provide the first comprehensive assessment of economic costs, energy requirements, technical parameterization, and global and regional carbon removal potential. The crucial parameters defining this potential are the grain size and weathering rates. The main uncertainties about the potential relate to weathering rates and rock mass that can be integrated into the soil. The discussed results do not specifically address the enhancement of weathering through microbial processes, feedback of geogenic nutrient release, and bioturbation. We do not only assess dunite rock, predominantly bearing olivine (in the form of forsterite) as the mineral that has been previously proposed to be best suited for carbon removal, but focus also on basaltic rock to minimize potential negative side effects. Our results show that enhanced weathering is an option for carbon dioxide removal that could be competitive already at 60 US $ t−1 CO2 removed for dunite, but only at 200 US $ t−1 CO2 removed for basalt. The potential carbon removal on cropland areas could be as large as 95 Gt CO2 a−1 for dunite and 4.9 Gt CO2 a−1 for basalt. The best suited locations are warm and humid areas, particularly in India, Brazil, South-East Asia and China, where almost 75% of the global potential can be realized. This work presents a techno-economic assessment framework, which also allows for the incorporation of further processes.

Full research paper in PDF format
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Re: Project Vesta - CO2 Removal With Enhanced Weathering of Olivine
« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2020, 01:18:23 AM »
Papakōlea Beach (also known as Green Sand Beach or Mahana Beach) is a green sand beach located near South Point, in the Kaʻū district of the island of Hawaiʻi. It is one of only four green sand beaches in the world, the others being Talofofo Beach, Guam; Punta Cormorant on Floreana Island in the Galapagos Islands; and Hornindalsvatnet, Norway. It gets its distinctive coloring from olivine sand eroded out of the enclosing volcanic cone (tuff ring).


Close view of olivine-rich sand found on the beach

The fragmented volcanic material (pyroclastics) of the tuff ring contains olivine, a silicate mineral containing iron and magnesium, also known as peridot when of gem quality. Olivine is a common mineral component of lava and is one of the first crystals to form as magma cools. Olivine is locally known as "Hawaiian Diamond" and is notably found in Oʻahu's famous Diamond Head landmark. The source of the green coloration of the beach sands is due to the olivine crystals (whose green color is due to ferrous iron) which are winnowed from the eroding headland by the action of the sea. Olivine, being denser than the enclosing ash matrix, tends to accumulate on the beach whereas the less dense volcanic sand is swept out to sea. Elsewhere on the Big Island, olivine is enclosed in lava rock, rather than volcanic ash, so the olivine is not easily freed from the enclosing rock and tends to weather away rather than accumulate and concentrate as beach sand.

Although these crystals are eventually broken down by weathering and chemical action and washed away, the constant erosion of the tuff ring ensures a steady supply of sand for the foreseeable future. Eventually, however, the supply will run out and the beach will look like any other.


At These Beaches, You’ll Find Sand That’s Naturally Green

https://www.travelandleisure.com/trip-ideas/beach-vacations/worlds-green-sand-beaches


The Green Beach on Floreana Island, The Galápagos. The green sand beach at Cormorant Point is a known nesting area for sea turtles. The green tinge in the sand is due to the large amount of olivine crystals that have been expelled from nearby tuff cones by the wind.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2020, 02:20:28 AM by Freegrass »
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Bruce Steele

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Re: Project Vesta - CO2 Removal With Enhanced Weathering of Olivine
« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2020, 01:25:33 AM »
Freegrass, I couldn’t get the Stefler link to work. Here is an a paper on using milled basalt on agricultural fields. Quarry distance from field was critical to carbon sequestration potential but rates average
0.175 CO2 per ton of basalt spread.   

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0959652619320578

My error link works
« Last Edit: June 10, 2020, 01:54:27 AM by Bruce Steele »

Freegrass

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Re: Project Vesta - CO2 Removal With Enhanced Weathering of Olivine
« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2020, 01:37:35 AM »
Do you mean the link in Reply#28? Both links work fine for me. Did you try the PDF link, or the link to the article? Here is the full link again.

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/aaa9c4/meta

Thank you for that paper. I'll have a look at it later.

I just found four beaches that already have Olivine naturally occuring, so I'm looking for research on those beaches now, and more particularly, the marine life near those beaches. What impact does the olivine have on the marine life there? That would be very interesting to know.
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Re: Project Vesta - CO2 Removal With Enhanced Weathering of Olivine
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2020, 02:52:42 AM »
The Green Beach on Floreana Island, The Galápagos

The green sand beach at Cormorant Point is a known nesting area for sea turtles. The green tinge in the sand is due to the large amount of olivine crystals that have been expelled from nearby tuff cones by the wind. A tuff cone is a type of volcanic rock which is formed by the interaction of basaltic magma (molten volcanic rock beneath the surface of the earth) and water.



This beach is also a popular spot for sally lightfoot crabs, also known as red rock crabs. Adults vary in colour, from reddish-brown, to mottled or spotted brown, pink or yellow. When they are young they are dark brown, which allows them to camouflage easily with the volcanic rocks. They are the most common saltwater crabs along the western coast of South America and are one of the few saltwater crabs that inhabit the Galápagos Islands. Sally lightfoot crabs are between eight to twelve centimetres in length and are flat and low to the ground.

In the shallow shoreline waters, several species of rays can often be seen. Green sea urchins and vegetation unique to this part of the island, such as the Floreana daisy are also found here.

https://uncover.travel/the-green-beach-on-floreana-island-the-galapagos/

So there's life on that green beach.  ;D
I'll try to find more information on these St. Patrick's Day beaches later.
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Re: Project Vesta - CO2 Removal With Enhanced Weathering of Olivine
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2020, 03:54:31 AM »
Testing Of Affordable, Scalable, Permanent Carbon Capture Solution Moves From Lab to Beach

SAN FRANCISCO, April 22, 2020 /PRNewswire/ — EARTH DAY — Project Vesta, a non-profit organization dedicated to solving the climate crisis, today announced its first site for testing its innovative carbon dioxide reduction method. Project Vesta uses a process called ‘coastal enhanced weathering’, which makes green-sand beaches out of olivine, the mineral in the gemstone peridot. Wave action grinds down the sand, removing harmful carbon dioxide from the atmosphere and ultimately converting it into rock. The selected Caribbean site consists of two coves: a test cove, where Project Vesta will deploy its enhanced weathering process, and a nearby control cove.



“Reducing emissions is not enough to solve the climate crisis,” stated Project Vesta cofounder, Eric Matzner. “We need a solution that removes gigatons of carbon dioxide emissions a year and we need it now. Once we prove our approach through pilot studies, we can implement at scale through an open-source platform.”

Nature already has a way of capturing carbon dioxide by weathering volcanic minerals. Project Vesta’s approach dramatically accelerates this. The green-sand beaches use an abundant mineral, olivine, where wave action speeds up the carbon dioxide capture process while de-acidifying the ocean. Thirty years of scientific research has demonstrated that this works and provided strong evidence that it is a highly affordable and scalable solution. The process captures 20 times more carbon dioxide than the extraction and transportation of the olivine, and if deployed on just two percent of global shelf seas, could capture 100 percent of annual human emissions.

“The current pandemic is a grave reminder of how interconnected we all are. It shows us that solidarity and intergenerational cooperation can be mobilized to face a crisis. While the world’s attention, rightly, is on the pandemic, we must also come together to face the deeper, longer-term crisis looming over the horizon: climate change,” added Tom Green of Project Vesta.

Today’s announcement, made on the non-profit’s first anniversary, marks a significant milestone towards the organization’s vision of solving climate change. Project Vesta, a 501(c)(3), is raising $1,500,000 in donations to fund this pilot. Donations can be made at www.ProjectVesta.org/donate and may be tax-deductible.

Project Vesta will be holding an online Press Conference to discuss its approach to carbon removal at 12pm PT / 3pm ET today, 4/22. The team will take questions. Register here.

About Project Vesta

Founded on Earth Day 2019, Project Vesta is a non-profit organization whose mission is to turn the tide on climate change. Project Vesta exists to further the science and viability of enhanced coastal weathering. This involves making green-sand beaches, which capture carbon dioxide using natural wave action. It works by accelerating the existing natural process of rock weathering. This is a process which has slowly captured carbon dioxide on earth for billions of years as part of the long-term carbonate silicate cycle. The Project Vesta approach to carbon capture is cheap, carbon-efficient, scalable and permanent.

Contacts
Learn more at www.ProjectVesta.org
General: hello@projectvesta.org
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Re: Project Vesta - CO2 Removal With Enhanced Weathering of Olivine
« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2020, 02:27:36 AM »
There is a lot of olivine mountains easy to turn into dust. Side effect is impact winter.

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Re: Project Vesta - CO2 Removal With Enhanced Weathering of Olivine
« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2020, 03:13:20 AM »
That's right Aluminium, olivine is an abundant mineral. I'm not sure what you mean with winter impact.
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Re: Project Vesta - CO2 Removal With Enhanced Weathering of Olivine
« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2020, 06:27:48 PM »
That is not an issue because the processes at work are totally different.
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Re: Project Vesta - CO2 Removal With Enhanced Weathering of Olivine
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2020, 04:26:07 PM »
Why We Must Remove Carbon Dioxide from the Atmosphere
By Tom Green
August 7, 2020


https://projectvesta.org/why-we-must-remove-carbon-dioxide-from-the-atmosphere/

Every day, 300 million tonnes of carbon dioxide (CO2) are emitted into the atmosphere, or 40 billion tonnes a year. Is that a lot? In short, yes. Human-caused emissions have added up to over a 50% increase in CO2 levels in the atmosphere since pre-industrial times.

Even if we were to halt emissions completely now, that excess CO2 is already out there warming the planet. Unless we want to, in the words of the European Academies Science Advisory Council, “condemn humanity to a dangerously warming world”, we must find ways to remove CO2 from the atmosphere in massive quantities.

The climate on this planet matters. It affects our ability to grow food, access water, and live here. The climate has been heavily politicized, but like the COVID-19 virus, the Earth doesn’t care about our preferred candidates or political views. It responds according to the laws of physics, and the way it responds to our activities affects us all. So let’s deal in facts and solutions.

There has been a growing discussion of the need for the removal of carbon dioxide. For a long time, the topic was taboo.  Why? “Moral hazard”. If people know we can remove carbon dioxide, they will not cut their emissions. Or so the argument goes. We’ll return to this later, but for now suffice to say that it is far too late to address this problem by cutting emissions alone. Removing carbon dioxide from the atmosphere is needed. The moral hazard argument is decades out of date.

Taking a step back, here are a few simple facts about the current state of the climate and how we got to this point.

   1) The recent rate of increase of carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere is unprecedented.

Humanity has emitted about a trillion tonnes of extra carbon dioxide into the atmosphere since the industrial revolution.

Over geological time, carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere have risen before. What’s different this time is that they are shooting up 10-100 times faster than they ever have before. Levels are now higher than they have ever been in about 3 million years. The planet has natural ways to stay in balance, but these cannot act quickly enough to compensate for how quickly we humans are changing things.

   2) This matters because it’s changing our world in ways that are harmful to us.

Three million years ago when there was this much CO2 around, sea levels were 50-80 feet higher. A warmer world means higher sea levels because of melting ice and because water expands when it warms. This is putting coastal cities around the world at risk. Extreme weather events have become more commonplace, with more hurricanes and fires, and millions of people displaced because of droughts and failing crops. The sea level has already risen over 1 foot, and that’s just the beginning.

And the ocean, which has absorbed much of the CO2 we’ve emitted, has become warmer and more acidic as a result, contributing to the widespread death of corals, shellfish, and other creatures. This is not just a problem for sea creatures and the scuba divers who want to look at them: the oceans are an enormous food source for humanity, and without healthy ocean ecosystems, fishery yields will continue to plummet.



We have a collective global problem on an unprecedented scale.

   3) Something needs to be done – but what, how, and when? And what will it cost?

First, what needs to be done, and how quickly?

The only path to avoid catastrophic future scenarios is to transition to a world with much lower levels of CO2 in the atmosphere. To do that, we need to end our reliance on fossil fuels. Since most electricity generation and almost all transportation currently burn fossil fuels, this will be hard. However, it can be done. Renewable sources of energy such as solar power are becoming competitive with fossil fuels. Electric cars are early on the path to being mainstream. Coal power is already falling precipitously.

As I said, this will be hard. It will take time. The Paris Agreement, signed in 2016, is a global plan to reduce emissions. 196 countries signed up. The climate is a classic example of the free-rider problem: the costs of transitioning to a low-carbon economy are borne at the individual and national levels, whereas the benefits accrue globally. Even at the national scale, if one country plays its part while others do not, the problem remains. This is why securing the agreement of so many nations to play their part in addressing this global crisis was such a momentous achievement.

Reducing emissions is necessary, but not enough, for two reasons. First, reducing emissions in ways that preserve the global economy will take at least two decades, likely three. In that time, even with emissions reducing, carbon dioxide levels will continue to climb to levels which will push the climate towards a deadly tipping point from which it will be difficult or impossible to return. Second, there is the excess carbon dioxide already sitting in the atmosphere and oceans. Suppose I come around to your house and start smashing everything in sight with a sledgehammer, you’ll probably become angry and ask me to stop. If I then set the sledgehammer down and calmly take a seat on the couch, you’ll probably still be upset at me. I haven’t fixed any of your carefully-chosen ornaments, only stopped destroying them. It’s like that with carbon dioxide too. We need to return CO2 in the atmosphere to healthy, sustainable levels, not just stop doing the damage.

Enter Carbon Dioxide Removal (CDR)

This leads us to the need to remove carbon dioxide from the atmosphere, often called Carbon Dioxide Removal, or CDR. The only way we can keep this planet a healthy place to live is to do it. We need to let go of any negative associations we have with this idea. Yes, it would have been better to avoid this problem in the first place, by making the transition to a low-carbon economy decades ago. We didn’t do that, and we don’t have a time machine, so it’s time for us all to accept CDR for what it is – a necessary and critical part of the solution. Some people have criticized CDR on the basis that it reduces the incentive for us to make the switch to a low-carbon economy, but CDR is now a required part of the overall solution.

The chart below shows the large gaps between the current trajectory of increasing emissions and the path we need to follow, even if countries meet their non-binding Paris Agreement targets. The figures in the gray circles show how much CO2 we must remove from the atmosphere to keep global warming below the generally recognized targets of 1.5 and 2 degrees C above pre-industrial levels.



We need to start removing somewhere between 13 and 32 billion tonnes of carbon dioxide per year by the end of this decade. Given that we are currently at close to zero CDR, we must move as quickly as possible.

How?

Any method of CDR creates its own carbon emissions, which must be taken into account in a ‘life cycle analysis’ (LCA) to determine the net effect. This is the first hurdle: a process must remove more CO2 than it emits.

Second, there is little point in capturing relatively small amounts of CO2. CDR methods need to be able to remove gigatonnes of CO2 per year to make any sort of dent in the problem.

Third, CDR methods should capture CO2 permanently, locking it up for hundreds of years at least.

Fourth, economic viability is essential. This means CDR methods must either be profitable in themselves, typically because they create a by-product which can be sold, or they must be cheap enough to solve the problem while drawing on a relatively modest proportion of society’s economic resources.

Fifth, it must be safe and preferably provide ‘co-benefits’ as well. Much has been written about the risks of ‘geoengineering’, ranging from the philosophical argument that we are ‘playing God’ to concerns about the impacts of specific interventions. The reality is we have already affected the climate, so the concern about playing God has little logical merit. The safety of each CDR method must be carefully analyzed though, to make sure we don’t cause deeper problems than the ones we solve.

As of now there are no methods which have been shown to meet the five criteria above. There are lots of possible ways to do CDR, and as a society we should explore all which have a reasonable chance of working. We don’t have time to waste and the magnitude of the problem means there are no silver bullets.

Why don’t we just plant trees? Trees are great: a natural and cheap way to capture CO2 and prevent erosion. But trees alone cannot solve this. There simply isn’t enough land available for the number of trees we’d need, and in many cases CO2 is captured only temporarily.

The Project Vesta Plan

At Project Vesta, we are working on a promising solution. It’s a way to accelerate a natural process and remove carbon dioxide cheaply from the atmosphere at a massive scale and turn it into rocks. There’s a natural process that’s existed for billions of years: when rain falls on volcanic rocks, CO2 is captured. After a series of steps it ends up as sediment on the bottom of the ocean, where it turns into limestone.

The problem is, this process is slow, but the good news is that we can speed it up. To do so we need to break down the rocks, so we take a green volcanic rock called olivine, grind it into sand, and spread it on beaches. There, wave action breaks it down, pulling CO2 out of the air and de-acidifying the ocean at the same time. Because we use natural wave energy to do this, we capture 20 times more carbon than we emit in the process of making these beautiful beaches.

Thirty years of peer-reviewed scientific papers, including various laboratory experiments, show that this process works. What we need now is real-life experiments at pilot beaches to demonstrate that the process works. After these, our open-source approach will ensure that this can be scaled up rapidly and globally. We believe global deployment could begin within 3-5 years, creating the fastest possible path to capturing and permanently removing 100 percent of humanity’s annual CO2 emissions.

And the cost? We can remove 100% of humanity’s emissions for under $500 billion per year. This is a large amount of money, but it’s only 0.3% of global GDP. That is a tiny investment compared with the cost of doing nothing. If we do nothing, we’ll need to deal with billions of displaced people; imagine the cost of moving New York City or London to higher ground and you start to get an idea of what this would take.

In conclusion

There are numerous other possible solutions, from using similar rocks to capture CO2 in soil to pulling CO2 directly out of the air using fans and chemical reactions. Project Vesta believes that as a society we should investigate any solution which has a reasonable shot at meeting the five criteria outlined above, and focus our resources on the solutions which show the most promise.

There is much cause for optimism. As a species we have great reserves of ingenuity, and paths remain open to avoid ruining this planet for ever. We can solve this problem, but only if we try hard, and only if we do so now.

https://projectvesta.org/
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Freegrass

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Re: Project Vesta - CO2 Removal With Enhanced Weathering of Olivine
« Reply #38 on: August 26, 2020, 10:00:05 AM »
Found this in my mailbox today.

Join us to hear about Project Vesta and our recent progress. Learn how we're helping reverse climate change with green sand beaches.

Wed, August 26, 2020 (today)
9:00 PM – 10:00 PM CEST

About this Event

Join Project Vesta for our Summer Update. We'll talk about how the Project Vesta process works, give an update on our recent progress, and answer your questions live.

Since our last event and update on Earth Day back in April, we've made great progress, and we can't wait to share with you.

To make this project successful, we need your help! Please sign up for the event and help us make global scale green sand beaches a reality to turn the tide on climate change.

https://www.eventbrite.com/e/project-vesta-summer-update-tickets-115407638353


This video explains the project, and while I understand many people here are against CO2 capture - out of concerns that this would slow down the progress in renewables and other needed changes - I just don't think that we can save the climate without a project like this. We need to dramatically lower CO2 in the atmosphere ASAP as to not cause irreversible damage. And who ever thinks that we'll get there with renewables alone, should think hard about all the minerals we would need to build those technologies. By the time these technologies become truly carbon negative, we're already 50 years or more ahead in time. We need to take out CO2 now! Renewables will still happen - because they are becoming cheaper than fossil fuels quickly - but I'm afraid it'll be too late by then.

And that's why I love this project. I don't see anything wrong with it - besides the fact that some people have an ideological problem with it. I would like to ask those people to please look at the ice this year, and then think again! We have no more time to waste!!!

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Re: Project Vesta - CO2 Removal With Enhanced Weathering of Olivine
« Reply #39 on: August 26, 2020, 01:55:56 PM »
I doubt many people are against CO2 capture. I am sure though many people are against CO2 emission. The first priority and lowest hanging fruit should be replacing emission sources with renewable or alternative sources, and/or avoid the emissions altogether by reducing unnecessary activities. It would be rather silly to build more fossil fuel plants, and try to suck the resulting CO2 at the same time.

The rest of the negative points could be:
* Actual cost of the project, when done on a scale large enough to affect atmospheric CO2.
* How long can the project be maintained in operation and does it have any physical limitations? (Such as number of available beaches, location of olivine deposits etc.)
* How high is the risk of any unintended consequences? Often such will be discovered much later than desirable.

But in general, I think this project makes sense, and I would hope to see it tried on a small scale to gain knowledge for the time when its priority vs. cost vs. other AGW-delaying alternatives will be in a better position.

Freegrass

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Re: Project Vesta - CO2 Removal With Enhanced Weathering of Olivine
« Reply #40 on: August 26, 2020, 04:11:53 PM »
Thanks for the reply Oren. I find it weird that not more people are reacting to such an important project. It's true that many questions remain, and that's why I posted this so people can ask those question tonight.

When you say;
Quote
The first priority and lowest hanging fruit should be replacing emission sources with renewable or alternative sources, and/or avoid the emissions altogether by reducing unnecessary activities.
I totally agree, but to produce all that extra alternative energy generation you also need a lot of energy on the front end. And reduction is absolutely necessary, but I live in the real world, where real greedy people do really bad things for a really big profit. So I gave up hope on that. The developing countries are developing rapidly, and so all the savings we make in the west are wiped out by economic growth in China and India. This is unstoppable! Poor people want what we have, and so I think it's reasonable to think that CO2 levels will keep going up for at least 20 more years. And by then I think it will be too late to reverse the tipping points.

Quote
It would be rather silly to build more fossil fuel plants, and try to suck the resulting CO2 at the same time.
So true. But like I said before, the same goes for the production of alternative energy sources. Without fossil fuels, China can't grow its economy and/or produce all those solar panels.

I guess it's a chicken and the egg thing. Although I don't like that saying because the egg came first. And I guess the egg in our case is people. Too many people wanting too many things. But good luck telling people they have to stay poor!

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...does it have any physical limitations? (Such as number of available beaches, location of olivine deposits etc
I think the answer to this is no. There are enough beaches, and there is enough Olivine. The trick will be to find the best beaches closest to the olivine deposits.

But hey... I posted this so everyone with questions can ask them to the people from project Vesta. I'm sure they don't have all the answers either. That's why it's good that they'll be doing some testing this year.

I just hope more people get involved in this discussion, because it's an important one. It's the best technology I've come across to extract CO2 from the atmosphere. I'm open to be corrected on that!
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Freegrass

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Re: Project Vesta - CO2 Removal With Enhanced Weathering of Olivine
« Reply #41 on: August 26, 2020, 07:16:58 PM »
What if this technology was safe and feasible? Would it then be a good alternative for the system of emissions trading? What if a carbon tax is used to pay for CO2 extraction? If you want to put CO2 into the air, you will need to pay a tax on that CO2 to take it out again. And this is what it costs...

This would make make fossil fuels more expensive and less dangerous for the environment, because we know that the CO2 will be taken out of the atmosphere again. No more worries...

And herein lies the danger for many, that people would just pay for that CO2 extraction and continue using fossil fuels. But I think that this was only true just a few years ago, when alternative energy wasn't cost competitive with fossil fuels.

If you add a carbon tax to extract CO2 - instead of trading it, which doesn't remove any CO2 - then we hit a home run, because CO2 levels would start to drop, and fossil fuels will have this tax that rich people don't like to pay. So what's the thing you don't pay taxes on? It's wind and solar. This will be the best choice, and that's why I'm not scared that CO2 extraction will end investments in alternative energy. Economics will do the trick. All you need is a tax to pay for CO2 extraction, and the market will regulate itself.

Quitting fossil fuels within the next 10 or 20 years is not realistic. So let's do the next best thing, and make them pay to clean up their waste.

Electric trains bring olivine to the coast and gets pumped into an electric ship that sprays it onto the beaches.

What could possibly go wrong?
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oren

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Re: Project Vesta - CO2 Removal With Enhanced Weathering of Olivine
« Reply #42 on: August 26, 2020, 09:36:50 PM »
All good points FG, your last two posts. I am sure some unforeseen side effects could go wrong, but in any case it would surely be better than the side effects of AGW.

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Re: Project Vesta - CO2 Removal With Enhanced Weathering of Olivine
« Reply #43 on: August 26, 2020, 10:20:16 PM »
That is certainly true Oren. I just finished watching their zoom webinar and was able to get two questions answered. They don't expect a problem with algae blooms because I think he said that they expect plankton to do much better and eat those algae. And that would make sense when plankton has more carbonates to produce their shells. He expects a lot of benefit for sealife, but he'll know for sure after the experiment.

And if the experiment fails, the olivine will be gone rather quickly.

My other question was if it could only be used on beaches, or also on the seafloor, and he said you could do it on the seafloor if there's enough movement on the seabed, and the North sea would be good for that.

Overall, I liked the guy. He's in it for the climate, and not for big business. If you can watch it again, I suggest doing it. It was very interesting, and I'm completely sold to this technology now. I think we have a winner here that could really save the climate.

And the cost would be $10 per ton CO2. I think that's very cheap. and doable...
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Re: Project Vesta - CO2 Removal With Enhanced Weathering of Olivine
« Reply #44 on: August 27, 2020, 01:43:36 AM »
Interstitial just posted this on the melting thread. I guess that proves my point that clean energy is getting cheaper. So let's get rid of that CO2 now with Olivine and a carbon tax.


(US)
FOR THE FIRST TIME NET FOSSIL FUEL CAPACITY DROPPED8.95 GW in the US.

Yes we have a long way to go to get to the point were no new fossil fuel plants are built or even operating but this  is a milestone.
Costs for renewables are lower than for any new fossil fuels and even many existing plants we are seeing the impact of that change in new plants being built. The same data for a year ago show fossil fuels were increasing on a net basis. Going from a net gain of 2083.0 MW to a net loss of 8949.9 MW is a compete turn around for US electricity. That is an 11032.9 MW reduction in new fossil fuel capacity.


June 2019 full year capacity data
renewables have net gain of 13272.1 MW
fossil fuels have NET GAIN of 2083.0 MW


June 2020 full year capacity data

renewables have net gain of 16887.3 MW
fossil fuels have NET LOSS of -8949.9 MW
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Re: Project Vesta - CO2 Removal With Enhanced Weathering of Olivine
« Reply #45 on: August 27, 2020, 02:41:37 AM »
Thanks FreeGrass, for drawing our (mine anyway) attention to this really interesting idea. I am one of the CCS sceptics, simply because I don't think most Carbon capture and storage schemes will really permanently store carbon- pumping CO2 into oil fields to wring the last drops of petroleum out is the most common method touted, with zero guarantee that the CO2 will stay down there.
So, a method that locks carbon into a solid stable form is far superior.
Will it work? Maybe!
What could go wrong? Haha! Lots, of course- I can just imagine getting the sums wrong and over achieving and sucking CO2 levels down to 180ppm.....BBR's vision of re-glaciation could even come true!

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Re: Project Vesta - CO2 Removal With Enhanced Weathering of Olivine
« Reply #46 on: August 27, 2020, 06:23:33 AM »
The best part of olivine (and other maphic minerals) weathering as a tool for reducing atmospheric CO2 is that this is what Mother Nature has been doing on Earth for the best part of 4.5 billion years.  When it gets hot, the weathering goes faster; when it gets cold, the weathering goes slower.

The worst part of this natural process is that it typically takes 100,000 years to lower CO2 levels appreciably.  Now, only if the Vesta (and similar) projects can leverage the process to run 1,000 or 10,000 times faster. 

But wait, isn't it taking natural rhythms and speeding them up 1,000 times that gets us into trouble?  (My walking into the wall of a house at 2 km/h will hurt me a little, but not the wall; an aeroplane flying into it at 500 km/h will totally mess up the plane, and the house, too.)
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Re: Project Vesta - CO2 Removal With Enhanced Weathering of Olivine
« Reply #47 on: August 27, 2020, 07:48:27 AM »
What is the testing protocol for Project Vesta ? Is there a before, ongoing and after survey of the ecology at these sites proposed for the initial stage ?

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Re: Project Vesta - CO2 Removal With Enhanced Weathering of Olivine
« Reply #48 on: August 27, 2020, 10:29:25 AM »
Thanks FreeGrass, for drawing our (mine anyway) attention to this really interesting idea. I am one of the CCS sceptics, simply because I don't think most Carbon capture and storage schemes will really permanently store carbon- pumping CO2 into oil fields to wring the last drops of petroleum out is the most common method touted, with zero guarantee that the CO2 will stay down there.
So, a method that locks carbon into a solid stable form is far superior.
Will it work? Maybe!
What could go wrong? Haha! Lots, of course- I can just imagine getting the sums wrong and over achieving and sucking CO2 levels down to 180ppm.....BBR's vision of re-glaciation could even come true!
You actually bring up an important question Sebastian. Kinda... What would happen to the trees around the world if we would drop CO2 levels back to 270 PPM? How will this affect trees? We know that trees have been growing larger with all that extra CO2, so what would happen when we drop CO2 back to pre-industrial levels? How many trees would die? I think that's a very good question.

I don't think there's any danger of dropping levels too rapid or too low. I'm sure that when we reach that point that the science will tell us how much Olivine has to be used to drop levels safely.

But just imagine that it would be possible to go as low as 250 ppm. Would that reverse some of the tipping points and restore the ice? And would that kill off some trees? I would love to find out, because that would mean we could actually reverse climate change...  ;D

What is the testing protocol for Project Vesta ? Is there a before, ongoing and after survey of the ecology at these sites proposed for the initial stage ?

sidd


Yes Sid. The testing site they have chosen has 2 beaches close to each other that are very similar. This will make it easy to compare and study the effects.

The biggest problem I see for the project is environmental pollution with heavy metals coming out of the Olivine. This was addressed at the webinar and the answer was that they will have to make sure they use Olivina with very little pollutants. Which they say is still abundantly available.The question is what effect zinc and magnesium will have on marine life. This needs to be studied.
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Re: Project Vesta - CO2 Removal With Enhanced Weathering of Olivine
« Reply #49 on: August 27, 2020, 06:20:11 PM »
If you know much olivine you have spread out you know the boundaries of what you can draw down.

There is zero reason to worry about dropping levels to 270 PPM. We need to draw down what we put in and and whatever feedbacks we awake (degrading peatlands and such).

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