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Author Topic: R's sudden, 100% insincere 'concern' about US debt  (Read 1273 times)

wili

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R's sudden, 100% insincere 'concern' about US debt
« on: December 30, 2020, 04:48:54 PM »
Expect to see a flood of newfound 'concern' about US debt coming from Republican quarters now that a new Democratic administration is about to take charge, this after expressing zero concern about debt as Trump and the Repubs exploded the debt with massive tax breaks for corporations and fore the very richest.

Republican posters here may now prove me right by posting all their  newfound 'concerns' about debt :)
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

kassy

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Re: R's sudden, 100% insincere 'concern' about US debt
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2020, 05:17:28 PM »
Just a minor nitpick but shouldn´t this be in politics?
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

wili

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Re: R's sudden, 100% insincere 'concern' about US debt
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2020, 06:13:07 PM »
I'm fine with that. When tom posted a debt related thing on the covid thread, I thought you had told him to put it in the 'the rest' thread.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Alexander555

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Re: R's sudden, 100% insincere 'concern' about US debt
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2020, 07:59:56 PM »
It's you that should be worried wili. 7 trillion is on the FED's balance sheet . That means more than 20 trillion is in the hands of savers. And because of that low interst rate they are going to find out that they are losing money every year. So normaly they will ask their money back. And the FED will have to print all that money. And  not just the FED, many countries will have to do the same. Even if inflation picks up only a little, people will start to lose more money. And more money will have to be printed. I don't know for the US. But over here, many of these products they sell to save for your pension. You can't get out, they changed the rules a couple years ago. Now you can only get it at the age of 65. So they can only look how their savings go up in smoke. But all the rest, it would not be  normal to hold on to these investment products that only cost you money. Here the yield is already  negative. So whene they say the government is making money to make more debt, that means the saver has to pay for his money.

Alexander555

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Re: R's sudden, 100% insincere 'concern' about US debt
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2020, 08:22:51 PM »
And as long that printed money don't creates inflation, it creates cheap consumption. And  normaly it should be durable consumption.

vox_mundi

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Re: R's sudden, 100% insincere 'concern' about US debt
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2020, 09:23:14 PM »
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

wili

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Re: R's sudden, 100% insincere 'concern' about US debt
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2020, 11:12:35 PM »
Good one, vox

And thanks for making my point for me, Al! :)
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: R's sudden, 100% insincere 'concern' about US debt
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2020, 01:42:02 AM »
I have this feeling that what can't go on won't go on. But when will the US hit the wall? How can we have $25,000,000,000,000.00 plus debt and 100,000,000,000,000.00 plus unfunded liabilities and still go on? Will we hit a quadrillion? A quintillion? A decillion? A centillion? Will the Fall be in 2021 or 2525?

KiwiGriff

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Re: R's sudden, 100% insincere 'concern' about US debt
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2020, 08:32:18 AM »
Things Republicans Are Going to Pretend to Care About Again
MrsBettyBowers
Animals can be driven crazy by placing too many in too small a pen. Homo sapiens is the only animal that voluntarily does this to himself.
Notebooks of Lazarus Long.
Robert Heinlein.

Alexander555

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Re: R's sudden, 100% insincere 'concern' about US debt
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2020, 08:54:44 AM »
In some way it's a remarkable subject, the debt. The Republicans were probably silent because Trump is a Republican. But i also did'nt hear much about it from the Democrats. Normaly they use everything they can find against each other. But the grants and free holidays are more importand.

wili

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Re: R's sudden, 100% insincere 'concern' about US debt
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2020, 09:59:28 PM »
" Republicans were probably silent because Trump is a Republican"

As we say: "No sh!t, Sherlock" :)

Hence the title of the freakin' thread. and the many excellent comments and cartoons ridiculing their baldfaced insincerity about caring about this, or really about anything but their own raw power
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

NevB

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Re: R's sudden, 100% insincere 'concern' about US debt
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2021, 03:10:08 PM »
" Republicans were probably silent because Trump is a Republican"

As we say: "No sh!t, Sherlock" :)

Hence the title of the freakin' thread. and the many excellent comments and cartoons ridiculing their baldfaced insincerity about caring about this, or really about anything but their own raw power

FWIW The exact same thing has happened here in Australia, when the Labor (Progressive) party were in power our mostly monolithic media relentlessly fueled fear over "debt and deficit" (BTW our debt to GDP was around an extarodinary 10 to 20%). This was a big contributing factor in the election of the conservative government we now have.

After the ironically named Liberal party (Far right conservatives) was elected our deficit doubled even before Covid, with not a word from >90% of our biased media.

Covid has blown the promised but never to be delivered surplus away for the foreseeable future. The narrative is that we won't have any problem at all with our now 41% debt to GDP ratio (that very few people car to know about) unless another progressive government is elected (where these same people will be lead like sheep to be outraged at the size of Labor's debt). Which is now very unlikely to ever happen as our media is totally screwed and most of the population are too wilfully ignorant to know or care.

Yep, this belongs in Politics, but also belongs in "This is the pitiful F.kn truth of humanities future thread" that discusses why we are doomed to fail to do anything meaningful to address climate change or even a "How a 16 y.o called Greta can see clearly what the problem is while so many others are clueless" thread.


SteveMDFP

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Re: R's sudden, 100% insincere 'concern' about US debt
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2021, 03:36:36 PM »
I have this feeling that what can't go on won't go on. But when will the US hit the wall? How can we have $25,000,000,000,000.00 plus debt and 100,000,000,000,000.00 plus unfunded liabilities and still go on? Will we hit a quadrillion? A quintillion? A decillion? A centillion? Will the Fall be in 2021 or 2525?

A consideration of Modern Monetary Theory may illuminate such questions.

1.)  One person's debt is always another person's asset.  That 25 trillion debt by the government matches 25 trillion in assets (i.e. wealth) held by individuals.  We consider the government debt to be "bad" but the wealth held by people to be "good."  So is the situation a net bad thing or a net good thing?  It depends on the details.

2.) As a corollary to #1, when the government (public sector) runs a deficit, the private sector runs a surplus.  That's math.  One is good, the other bad, but they're inextricably tied to each other.

3.) The "unfunded liability" assertions about Social Security is mathematical sophistry and scaremongering.  It's not at all unfunded, as long as you consider it a safe assumption that we will continue to have a functioning economy where social security taxes will continue to be collected.  The projected costs are just as much assumptions as the projected revenue.  It's entirely possible, we've learned, for a substantial fraction of retirees to meet an early demise.

The sophistry goes beyond this.  A century ago, a working person might support a household with numerous non-working people.  I.e., a spouse, several children, a grandparent or two.  The ratio of working people to people being supported was far smaller in the past.  It's only the current structure of the Social Security system that needs to be tweaked.  The "crisis" of the "trust fund" can be resolved in an instant, by considering payments to be obligations of the general Treasury fund, and revenue to be deposits to the general fund.  Others would prefer a different tweak.  It is overall, a non-issue.

Overall, consider that Japan's debt to GDP ratio is far higher than the US.  Yet, it's still regarded as a solid economy, with it's currency also considered by investors to be a high-quality asset.

Alexander555

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Re: R's sudden, 100% insincere 'concern' about US debt
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2021, 08:14:11 PM »
I have this feeling that what can't go on won't go on. But when will the US hit the wall? How can we have $25,000,000,000,000.00 plus debt and 100,000,000,000,000.00 plus unfunded liabilities and still go on? Will we hit a quadrillion? A quintillion? A decillion? A centillion? Will the Fall be in 2021 or 2525?

A consideration of Modern Monetary Theory may illuminate such questions.

1.)  One person's debt is always another person's asset.  That 25 trillion debt by the government matches 25 trillion in assets (i.e. wealth) held by individuals.  We consider the government debt to be "bad" but the wealth held by people to be "good."  So is the situation a net bad thing or a net good thing?  It depends on the details.

2.) As a corollary to #1, when the government (public sector) runs a deficit, the private sector runs a surplus.  That's math.  One is good, the other bad, but they're inextricably tied to each other.

3.) The "unfunded liability" assertions about Social Security is mathematical sophistry and scaremongering.  It's not at all unfunded, as long as you consider it a safe assumption that we will continue to have a functioning economy where social security taxes will continue to be collected.  The projected costs are just as much assumptions as the projected revenue.  It's entirely possible, we've learned, for a substantial fraction of retirees to meet an early demise.

The sophistry goes beyond this.  A century ago, a working person might support a household with numerous non-working people.  I.e., a spouse, several children, a grandparent or two.  The ratio of working people to people being supported was far smaller in the past.  It's only the current structure of the Social Security system that needs to be tweaked.  The "crisis" of the "trust fund" can be resolved in an instant, by considering payments to be obligations of the general Treasury fund, and revenue to be deposits to the general fund.  Others would prefer a different tweak.  It is overall, a non-issue.

Overall, consider that Japan's debt to GDP ratio is far higher than the US.  Yet, it's still regarded as a solid economy, with it's currency also considered by investors to be a high-quality asset.

Japan was the first country to start the money printing. At that point they could just buy bonds in the rest of the world with a higher yield. So they could still earn good money in a easy way. China was close by. First the cheap labour. Than the subsidised transport, energy, resources..... And now slaves. And that manipulated economy pooled country after country into money printing. Because most countries can not pay for their social security without printing money. And that counts for the entire planet. Also for the countries that don't have an international currency. Lile Brazil, Turkey....They offer an higher interest rate, but their  currencies go down as a rock. Because they like cheap debt in other currencies. So now they entire planet will start to print more and more money.

Alexander555

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Re: R's sudden, 100% insincere 'concern' about US debt
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2021, 09:20:34 PM »
And who's responsable for that, the anti-Trump gang.

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: R's sudden, 100% insincere 'concern' about US debt
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2021, 04:29:11 PM »
Deep Dive: US debt hits 100% of GDP. Should the credit markets care?
https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/news-insights/latest-news-headlines/deep-dive-us-debt-hits-100-of-gdp-should-the-credit-markets-care-62691039
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The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office recently released its publication, The Budget and Economic Outlook: 2021 to 2031, highlighting that during 2020 the U.S. national debt held by the public rose to 100% of GDP for the first time since the end of the Second World War. Will such high levels of U.S. debt, so worrisome in the early 2010s, when markets focused on the greater-than-100%-of-GDP Southern European sovereign borrowings, be a concern to U.S. high grade and high yield bond portfolio managers today?

Democrats gear up to pass $1.9 trillion stimulus without Republican support, reviving debate over national debt
https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2021/feb/25/democrats-gear-up-to-pass-19-trillion-stimulus-wit/
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President Joe Biden came into office just over a month ago calling for a return to bipartisanship. That same day, he also called on Congress to pass a sweeping stimulus package.
It appears he can’t have it both ways.

Letter: National Debt
https://tucson.com/opinion/letters/letter-national-debt/article_20bcdc1e-72c3-11eb-bfe3-3bfa5c339c0f.html
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Iagree that the national debt requires attention. I support a quick revocation of the tax cuts passed by republicans which gave us a $1.7 trillion dollar deficit before the pandemic. The tax cuts which went to the rich and to corporations did not do much for the economy. History has shown the conservative republican trickle down myth has caused serious economic crises and it is democratic administrations have to dig us out.

National debt will hit hard when markets crash again
https://www.galvnews.com/opinion/guest_columns/article_f29f8c11-bb14-5ecf-b8a7-5678f34afce7.html
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So, what about the $1.9 trillion that our leaders are contemplating; can we afford it? Let’s see if I can answer the question.

Economists Warn We Can’t Keep Ignoring the National Debt Forever
https://fee.org/articles/economists-warn-we-can-t-keep-ignoring-the-national-debt-forever/
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Economists interviewed by FEE warned that when the dust settles after COVID-19, we'll still have a major problem on our hands.

LETTER: McElwee's Achilles' heel analogy exhumes 'national debt monster'
https://www.wvgazettemail.com/opinion/letters_to_editor/letter-mcelwees-achilles-heel-analogy-exhumes-national-debt-monster/article_daa376b0-2691-5493-8f20-92b34a15ec65.html
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The beast has meekly loitered in the mold during the previous Republican administration, when tax cuts for the rich were being doled out. But now, when it looks like the overworked and undervalued 99% might receive some value from their government, it is called forth, yet again.

Money In Your Pocket: National Debt 2/24/21
https://www.localsyr.com/news/money-in-your-pocket/money-in-your-pocket-national-debt-2-24-21/
video

Taylor: How much national debt is too much?
https://www.expressnews.com/business/business_columnists/michael_taylor/article/Taylor-How-much-national-debt-is-too-much-15937879.php
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I fielded a question from a friend recently that ought to be on all our minds: “Does ballooning national debt matter?”
My quick answer: It doesn’t matter right now. It might, and probably will, matter later.

Lawmakers write Biden urging action on record national debt
https://www.erienewsnow.com/story/43337387/lawmakers-write-biden-urging-action-on-record-national-debt
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The coronavirus pandemic has driven the national debt to record highs. Now, a bipartisan group of lawmakers is calling on President Joe Biden to act.

Letter: Ballooning national debt ought to worry everyone
https://tulsaworld.com/community/owasso/opinion/letter-ballooning-national-debt-ought-to-worry-everyone/article_54d30f1c-6578-11eb-9eb4-8b9722e12d86.html
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That means that every working person has to feed himself plus one other which could be family or parasite, both welfare and Wall Street.
In addition, each person's debt portion is $171,000, which has to be paid back someday. Us old folks used to worry about our grandkids assuming this burden.
However, President Joe Biden says the new $1.9 trillion stimulus is only a down payment of things to come.

National debt still climbing
https://www.clarkecountydemocrat.com/articles/national-debt-still-climbing/
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“In view of the spending on the coronavirus pandemic, how large is the national debt. Who owns it?” This question from a reader is especially relevant. Spending in an attempt to stimulate recovery of the economy has added an enormous amount to the debt. This has, as well, changed the ownership of the national debt.

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: R's sudden, 100% insincere 'concern' about US debt
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2021, 04:38:05 PM »
The U.S. Is Already Facing a Debt Crisis | Opinion
https://www.newsweek.com/us-already-facing-debt-crisis-opinion-1566687
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s a CPA and a well-informed, patriotic American, I was concerned about our rapidly increasing national debt before the pandemic struck. Too many individuals, particularly those inside the Beltway, are constrained in what they say about our debt either because they caused it through their mismanagement, aided and abetted its pernicious growth, or worry about their own employment. They use politically correct terms to describe our massive debt as "a dilemma," "an unsustainable trajectory" or "not a today problem." No elected politician wants the debt to blow up, or have their voters think it will blow up, on his or her watch. Too many of them avoid being honest and transparent. They will continue to kick the can down the road so as not to face reality and suffer the political consequences. As a non-D.C. based, informed and unconstrained American, I call our massive and growing debt what it is—a crisis already at our doorstep.

Do Republicans still have moral authority to warn about the national debt?
https://www.deseret.com/opinion/2021/1/28/22248820/republicans-warn-about-national-debt-moral-authority-john-thune
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Which brings me to Republicans under President Joe Biden. A lot of them suddenly seem to have embraced fiscal austerity again. It started just after the election when The Hill quoted Sen. John Thune, a high-ranking Republican from South Dakota, saying it was time for his party to focus on spending because “I think that’s kind of getting back to our DNA.”

The great US debt debate is underway again
https://asiatimes.com/2021/02/the-great-us-debt-debate-is-underway-again/
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Americans should worry less about national debt and more about whether proposed government fiscal programs make sense

Congress Doesn’t Care About The Increasing National Debt Because Voters Aren’t Focused On It, Economists Say
https://www.newstalkflorida.com/featured/congress-doesnt-care-about-the-increasing-national-debt-because-voters-arent-focused-on-it-economists-say/
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Congress cares more about addressing the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic than focusing on the national debt because voters aren’t as concerned about the debt, economists told the Daily Caller News Foundation.

After free-spending Trump years, Republicans rediscover US debt
https://www.arabnews.com/node/1801201/world
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With Democrats back in the presidency, Republicans are citing concerns about the rising US debt and deficit as grounds to object to Biden’s agenda

America’s Excessive Government Spending Must Stop
https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/risks-of-excessive-us-government-spending-by-george-p-shultz-et-al-2021-02
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Many in Washington now seem to think that the US federal government can spend a limitless amount of money without any harmful economic consequences. They are wrong. Excessive federal spending is creating grave economic and national-security risks. America’s fiscal recklessness must stop.

Who Bought the $4.5 Trillion Added in One Year to the Incredibly Spiking US National Debt, Now at $27.9 Trillion?
https://wolfstreet.com/2021/02/17/who-bought-the-4-5-trillion-added-in-one-year-to-the-incredibly-spiking-us-national-debt-now-at-27-9-trillion/
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Someone had to buy every dollar of this monstrous debt. Here’s Who. The Fed isn’t the only one. But China continues to unwind its holdings.

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: R's sudden, 100% insincere 'concern' about US debt
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2021, 03:51:13 AM »
U.S. debt set to double over next 30 years, Congressional Budget Office says
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-national-debt-double-gdp-congressional-budget-office/
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The Congressional Budget Office projects the federal debt will exceed the economy's size by the end of the year and will balloon to 202% of gross domestic product over the next 30 years. And that's their outlook without factoring in President Joe Biden's $1.9 trillion COVID-19 relief package, which is making its way through the Senate this week.

The national debt is big and getting bigger. Does it matter?
https://www.americanbanker.com/news/the-national-debt-is-big-and-getting-bigger-does-it-matter
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The clock currently reads $28 trillion, give or take, and will grow rapidly in the coming years. The coronavirus pandemic has cost the U.S. economy $16 trillion, give or take, and Congress appropriated more than $3 trillion in aid in 2020.

The Democrats Go Wild on Spending and the National Debt—Again
https://nationalinterest.org/feature/democrats-go-wild-spending-and-national-debt%E2%80%94again-179750
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Such reckless spending harms the U.S. economy and detracts from claims of political centrism.

The National Debt Makes our Inequality Problem Worse | Opinion
https://www.newsweek.com/national-debt-makes-our-inequality-problem-worse-opinion-1571789
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You don't have to look hard to find proof that government spending and low interest rates have increased wealth inequality. Analyses and research examining wealth inequality show that inequality grew dramatically in America from 1980 to the mid-2010s, a period marked by shrinking interest rates and increasing national deficits and government spending.

A year into an economy-shattering pandemic, did we learn anything about debt?
https://www.deseret.com/opinion/2021/3/9/22320040/a-year-into-an-economy-shattering-pandemic-did-we-learn-anything-about-debt
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As the economy continues to recover from the COVID-19 pandemic, we will have to account for the massive debt we’ve assumed.

Is Our Exploding National Debt Fueling An Economic Crash?
https://thefederalist.com/2021/03/04/is-our-exploding-national-debt-fueling-a-stock-market-crash/
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At our current rate of spending, the U.S. will be unable to confront major problems in the future because we’ve already stretched ourselves too thin.

MacLellan: How much debt is too much debt?
https://www.columbiatribune.com/story/business/columns/2021/03/07/maclellan-how-much-debt-too-much-debt/6919839002/
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Today, our total debt stands north of $27 trillion. We have added $21 trillion of the debt in the past two decades and as seen, it was bipartisan, both sides are equally culpable. Our public debt exceeds the value of our GDP for the first time since WWII and that level of debt occurred during peacetime. The Congressional Budget Office (CBO), a non-partisan entity, is projecting another $2.3 trillion deficit for 2021. It should be noted that projection does not include the current $1.9 stimulus bill, the infrastructure bill or the approximate $435 billion in student debt forgiveness that someone needs to account for.

U.S. national debt tops $28 trillion for the 1st time
https://bnonews.com/index.php/2021/03/u-s-national-debt-tops-28-trillion-for-the-1st-time/
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The public debt held by the United States has surpassed $28 trillion for the first time, an increase of nearly four trillion in one year amid a massive surge in government spending due to the coronavirus pandemic.

Gold and Silver’s Role in the Coming Debt Crisis – Will the Dollar Survive?
https://www.fxempire.com/forecasts/article/gold-and-silvers-role-in-the-coming-debt-crisis-will-the-dollar-survive-705971
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And that is not even the worst of it. What many forget is that our debt is growing at a warp speed, while the interest rates are at historic lows. At some point the FED would have to normalize rates, and when they finally do, our debt will begin to skyrocket even faster to unfathomable levels.

The national debt could surge prices on goods in a post-pandemic world, says BYU economist
https://kslnewsradio.com/1944193/the-national-debt-could-surge-prices-on-goods-in-a-post-pandemic-world-says-byu-economist/?
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The tipping point for the US and its national debt will be during the next crisis, according to Showalter. Whether that be another pandemic, recession or war.