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Author Topic: Alleged movement of Northern Greenland Terrain over the last 30 years.  (Read 2670 times)

OffTheGrid

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I had doubts that this was possible. Theres been large and increasing mismatch between the blue land /ice masks used on Sentinel 1 Radar tiles, and the islands, mountains fiords etc. However the masks match the 1990 geographic survey. So it's certainly real.

Actually not just here but South of 75 nth on the East coast. In the opposite direction there and about half as much.
Not something that should be hushed up, and an average of 1 km per year over 30 years could not have been missed.
Anyone have an Archive of older S1 imagery?
Obviously high priority to ascertain whether this is an accelerating process.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2021, 09:19:01 AM by oren »

grixm

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Doesn't make any sense. Almost certainly just a coordinate glitch or new standard or something.

Worldview has sat photos going back to 2000, and it does not even show the slightest shift between then and 21 years later today.

oren

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Obviously Greenland has not shifted by 30km, or we would have known. Just to put things in context, consider that Espen monitors what seems like every change in Greenland. So no, this hasn't happened.

OffTheGrid

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You might want to read world leading expert Dr Veli Albert Kalio's  of Oxford universitys paper on the Melville bay event where a huge section of the coastal Terrain got pushed off the shelf into the Labrador sea on the West Coast of Greenland in a previous dome collapse.
Certainly we don't want to believe this is true. I've certainly wanted to believe it's some sort of glitch whilst seeing the mismatch in the mask and terrain grow over the last year. Almost daily. But The positions of places like Elsemere island in the same tiles don't mismatch. Franklin and a neighbor island seem to have moved by a lesser amount, but nearby Hans in the middle of Nares strait hasn't.
I have several times tried to find decent maps that accurately position the coordinates of the Terrain. Unsuccessfully. This time I did.
I don't believe this 1990 operational Navigation map from Canada's National Mapping services, is inaccurate. Like I said, it fits the blue S1 masks very accurately. But Terrain has moved in some places, not in others.
I've had long phone calls, and email exchanges over the last few months discussing this with Veli and other leading experts.
We very much don't want to believe that this could be happening and not public knowledge.
Tried to attach the whole map but perhaps 16 mb is too much. It came from wiki commons. I downloaded it about 4 times, but none of my phone apps could find it. But the forums software does. All four.
Never seen that happen before either.




OffTheGrid

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Managed to beat it.
It won't edit, wouldn't show up on Google photos even after I managed to upload it there.
But I managed to get a sharing link.
Let me know if anyone else has a problem.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/wj6ueRVYMbdNFo32A
« Last Edit: March 16, 2021, 05:42:18 AM by OffTheGrid »

OffTheGrid

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Here's a slightly reduced resolution version. Only six thousand pixels wide instead of 9330.
Online editor had no problems.
Operational defence navigation map. Prepared in Missouri. Compare it with Google earth with lat/long turned on if you like.
Sorry, this is real.

Edit.
Got squashed somehow. Only 2000 wide.
Oh well, you have the link to the full-size.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2021, 06:25:23 AM by OffTheGrid »

oren

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OTG, you are making extraordinary claims with very unclear proofs.
Greenland has not moved 30km. Either your map is wrong, or your comparison method is wrong, or you are misreading something.

OffTheGrid

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You seem to be misinterpreting what I am saying. Which is that parts of the shallow geology of Greenland have and are moving relative to other parts. Considering that the geology is composed of many layers of compressed porous till and frozen organic material, with flood basalts pancaked over and between them it should not be difficult to understand that this is not just possible but logically a basic physical consequence of an ice dome destabilising so fast.
We have glaciers such as ZI, 79 North on the East, and Petermann to name just a couple that in a decade to 2015, filled deep feeder channels to their calving fronts, up to and over 1 km deep with rubble from floating toe to behind the rim bowl of mountains. What were thick ice streams becoming eroded from below by water and debris transported from the interior by cascade ruptures and outbursts through the basal lake systems.
This was clear on the radar from 2000-2015 in the recent Cambridge paper on ZI.
Petermann is another good example. That map I have provided shows contour lines ramping up at a steep incline on the ice surface, right back from Nares to the main ice sheet. The ice surface is now near sea level through that several hundred km cut, and the dome has repeatedly crumbled into huge piles of debris over winter at the inland start of the channel.

The ice streams were solid ice of good mechanical properties, but the last few decades have seen a rapidly growing subicesurface aquifer at altitude, very large cracks propagating all over the central dome, filling from the anear surface aquifer, and the denser liquid water hydro fracturing right down to the base of the sheet. Freeze expansion adding to the spreading forces
Instead of ice streaming under gravity, able to sustain elastic tensile forces at altitude, and compressive at the toes, Note that the island that historically blocked ZIs foot has rebounded inland to the west, deprived of the outwards force it experienced when a solid 600m thick tounge was pressing out on it. We now see hydraulic pressure acting to lift and force outward the mountainous rim bowl. There have been many dome wide high SO2 emission pulses from volcanic sources under the central dome over winter, that spread out and emerge at the coasts in massive basil outbursts.
Don't imagine the rim bowl of mountains has deep solid stable keels. They are more akin to stacks of plates interleaved, and sitting atop loosely bound porous gravel layers. The volcanic feeder pipes have been long ago sheared from the bases. Every time this part of the cycle has occurred, the surface terrain is shunted outwards.

I would consider a Naval operational navigation map as a comparison to todays coordinates as good evidence.

If anyone can overcome their well studied psychological bias to believe that their upper classes have only their best interests at heart, and would have warned them that this is underway, so it cannot be possibly real, perhaps think about how they've been behaving over the last year, with their divide, isolate, distract and censorship of science tactics, perhaps they might want to analyse this in depth.
Personally, it's not in my backyard.
All this has been going on in Antarctica too, at greater scale of course. The Antipodal coupling of volcanism in the Ross-transantarctic region and NE Greenland has been very obvious.
Take the ball and run with it. The public in vulnerable areas need to know so they can prepare.
Or the blue pill and the Matrix.
Me, I'm for preparing.




oren

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A. I'm guessing my intelligence is severely limited as I cannot make sense of whatever it is you are saying.
B. Even my limited intelligence is enough to understand you are also mixing in some vast conspiracy theory.
C. I cannot allow this, next post mentioning such conspiracy will be removed. Not because there is indeed such a conspiracy, but because this forum's policy does not tolerate nonsense.
D. If you wish to convince of some truth in what you are saying, please state it very slowly and clearly, less words, more actual comparisons. Why not show an animation of satellite image from 1990 and today, highlighting the marked difference you claim there to be? A map is not enough, show me actual images of the change.
E. If such clear explanations are not forthcoming, subsequent posts will be removed at will. My patience is running thin.

kassy

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Theres been large and increasing mismatch between the blue land /ice masks used on Sentinel 1 Radar tiles, and the islands, mountains fiords etc.

Can you show a series of these in time?
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

Freegrass

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You'd think pilotes would have noticed by now if they had to fly an extra 30km to a Greenland airport...
When factual science is in conflict with our beliefs, we cuddle up in our own delusional fantasy where everything starts making sense again...

nukefix

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Nonsense. Greenland is composed of bedrock and ice. Interferometric SAR can detect millimetric movement from space and even a Richter scale 9+ mega-earthquake could perhaps generate 10m of movement in one fault over a limited area. This has not happened even once, let alone 3000 times...

Also, there's a GPS network in Greenland which would also readily detect small movement. No such thing is happening. If you are suspicious email Polarview maintainer and ask why the mask has been in a shifted position with regards to the SAR iimagery.

kassy

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The issue is quite different read the start of 7 again.
It seems to be about movement in the coast around it.
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

OffTheGrid

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I'm sure pilots use up to date maps Freegrass.
Oren  I'm sorry if you don't understand geological processes and the structure of Greenlands geology. You could have messaged Veli for his paper. It would certainly help with that.
<Conspiracy discussion removed. O>

No I cannot provide an animation. I don't have the hardware, bandwidth, to crop, align, animate S1 imagery the size of their tiles, available from www.polarview.aq for only three months. Which is why I asked if anyone had an archive.
Freegrass has the skills. With enough JD he might be able to face the task. Veli has been asking me to connect him with someone with such skills. It may be a paid job.
Oren, Freegrass whoever, you can message him from this forum, which he follows, but is sick of posting on because of the know nothing know at all's that always call him a fool and a lying when he is in fact the most knowledgeable, credible and find his phone number on the Oxford university Sea Research institute website. He is the vice President. Their submersibles found relics of the human settlements dumped off the West Greenland shelf in the Melville bay megaslide.
Veli tends to work till about 11pm UK time, usually prefers to talk after that. Don't be afraid to talk to leaders in academic circles. They know a lot more than they can say publically without losing their career. And are usually very pleased to have an opportunity to share.

Here's an Aqua/terra animation of an event in the  last two days, and the SO2 chart at the time  from nullschool.
Freegrass, animating those would be very informative. If terms like Antipodal coupling of volcanism confuses anyone, it's when the shockwaves from explosive eruptions refocus on the opposite side of the planet, triggering eruptions there. Over 900 antipodally coupled flood Basalt provinces worldwide have been recognised and published.
The bright white area in one of the frames is phreatic (steam) erupting from beneath the ice dome. There are a number of very active cryovolcanic vent areas at the head of these glaciers. Show up clearly on the SO2.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2021, 08:19:53 PM by oren »

OffTheGrid

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Nonsense. Greenland is composed of bedrock and ice. Interferometric SAR can detect millimetric movement from space and even a Richter scale 9+ mega-earthquake could perhaps generate 10m of movement in one fault over a limited area. This has not happened even once, let alone 3000 times...

Also, there's a GPS network in Greenland which would also readily detect small movement. No such thing is happening. If you are suspicious email Polarview maintainer and ask why the mask has been in a shifted position with regards to the SAR iimagery.

You are wrong on all your points, except perhaps the GPS network. However publically available information is that " there have been no earthquakes in or near Greenland or Antarctica in the last 2 years."

I don't need to email any polar view maintainer, as they are using the official 1990 dept energy, dept of defense operational Navigation map I provided you with for their mask. I don't recommend anyone does.
<Conspiracy hints removed. O>
« Last Edit: March 17, 2021, 08:20:55 PM by oren »

Freegrass

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30km in 30 year = 20m a week.
Try using your car's GPS on a road that moves 20m every week.
There is absolutely no chance in hell that land could move that much without it being global headline news. It's simply ridiculous...

Greenland on the move
https://svs.gsfc.nasa.gov/13128
When factual science is in conflict with our beliefs, we cuddle up in our own delusional fantasy where everything starts making sense again...

nukefix

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You are wrong on all your points, except perhaps the GPS network. However publically available information is that " there have been no earthquakes in or near Greenland or Antarctica in the last 2 years." Which should give you some idea of how much you should trust what you can find.

I don't need to email any polar view maintainer, as they are using the official 1990 dept energy, dept of defense operational Navigation map I provided you with for their mask. I don't recommend anyone does. They may be leaned on to remove it. Depriving us of a valuable asset for tracking this. And you are unlikely to get an honest response anyway. It would likely cost them their jobs.
Look, I'm an expert in SAR imaging from space. S-1 is a geometrically highly accurate system, with satellite orbits known at better than 10cm 3D accuracy at all times in a coordinate-system fixed into Earth centre. With interferometry already a few centimeters of bedrock movement in a week woud be extremely easy to detect. I have wondered why the masks in PolarView were so inaccurate already in the beginning years ago, I just could not bother to request them to fix their processing chains. Your conspiracy-theory does not make sense...
« Last Edit: March 17, 2021, 08:03:06 PM by nukefix »

oren

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OTG, your animation simply shows shadows shifting around over the span of a few days, no movement of the actual landscape.
And I see you have found EZGIF.com, so you can easily animate any images found on the web, no need for stories of bandwidth etc.
Why not animate the same quality images you brought but compared to 10 years ago? Let's see if the shifting around resulted in any net movement.

All of your hints as to conspiracies, people losing their jobs etc. have been removed as promised.
Veli is a known member of this forum, and is welcome to post on his own behalf. I doubt he needs your posts for communicating.

paolo

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Clearly no shifts, even though comparing the distances between Greenland and Ellesmere Island in Sentinel2 and the 1991 map shows a difference of 10 km.
This is an error in the map, as it says in the map itself!!
Attached
> the top left corner of the map to show that it is the map under discussion
> the warning contained in the map


Click to enlarge.

gerontocrat

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The map is NOT A 1991 MAP

It is part of Operational Navigation Chart Series - World 1:1,000,000 Scale
ONC A-5 Canada; Greenland [Not for navigational use] U.S. Defense Mapping Agency Aerospace Center, compiled 1968, revised 1987.
Source: http://legacy.lib.utexas.edu/maps/onc/

I wonder what the 1987 revision actually revised.

Mind you - just as well it is not for navigational use. I hope the US Defence Department did not give it to the Navy for use in anger.

Surely reaching the time to lock this thread (though it has lightened my day)?
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
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OffTheGrid

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Link to PDF of Veli's paper.
The house of commons ruled that it must be published open access.
Image of first page below.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/103AfrcLtzlx3xPUkfgymF_7cYRAO2z5M/view?usp=drivesdk

Thank you for pointing out that the geographical coordinates may date to earlier than the publication date gerontocrat.

You will find the relevant info on the Melville bay and Hudson dome collapse starting around page 17.

Seems that you can upload pdfs here now, so attached also.

1rover1

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I highly suspect this is all simply a matter of different projections being used on different data layers in somebody's GIS system.  A projection is the means by which you display the coordinate system and your data on a flat surface, such as a piece of paper or a digital screen. Mathematical calculations are used to convert the coordinate system used on the curved surface of earth to one for a flat surface.    There are dozens of projections of the earth that can be used in a GIS system and maps, images and coordinates are basically stretched to fit. 

Was one layer in, say, a modern NAD83 projection and another in an older NAD27 projection, or a European ED50, and all layers simply not been standardized on the map?  If a GIS person knows what projection a data layer is they are ways to convert them and things will snap into place.

We see it all the time in our forestry office, if someone gives us a GPS location of something, and we need to be highly accurate, our GIS person will ask what projection they have their GPS set to before they put points on a map.

nukefix

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Link to PDF of Veli's paper.
That is not a scientific publication and it makes claims about Melville Bay that are not factual.

OffTheGrid

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Personally I like Geros "Conspiracy Hypothesis" that the Canadian and US Govts did it on purpose as a joke to mess with their Danish Allies.

We are talking larger distances than the width of Nares Strait here. And in the same tiles the other side matches the chart and the mask. Ditto for the western side of Humboldt glacier. The motion appears to be  mainly absorbed by Humboldt and Petermann. Possibly there is an elastic rebound component due to them no longer exerting lateral forces on the sides of their channels. Or not having compressive strength and stiffness.

These synthetic aperture radar images are not image processed like NASAs. The resolution is 20m though I have had to squash these to 100m pixels to make the file sizes acceptable. NASA has 500m to 1km resolution, and uses algorithms to create 250m pixel imagery. Radar is not affected by cloud and fog that can fool artificial un-intelligence into thinking it's ice in NASA's visuals, reflects off ice, but is absorbed by liquid water. I really wish people would use it more on this forum. There are so many misconceptions being propagated by people thinking  what's painted by Eosdis is real visuals.
Veli has several thousand published papers on Academia.edu but it hides almost all of them.
That presentation for the house of commons is designed for the non scientifically literate to understand. Like politicians. But it most certainly is based on real research and evidence. We've known ice sheets destabilise and collapse suddenly since the late 1970s.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2021, 11:15:07 AM by oren »

oren

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Your images show nothing. What is their relevance?
Why not show a long term animation?

nukefix

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Veli has several thousand published papers on Academia.edu but it hides almost all of them.
That presentation for the house of commons is designed for the non scientifically literate to understand. Like politicians. But it most certainly is based on real research and evidence. We've known ice sheets destabilise and collapse suddenly since the late 1970s.
He has made sensational claims that do not stand up to scrutiny. I repeat, if the visible rock in Greenland moves even by 5cm it is extremely easy to detect it with interferometric SAR. This is not happening. Several international teams process S-1 imagery of Greenland coasts weekly (there's a S-1 acquisition every 6 days). Also, GPS-station evidence shows that the coast of Melville Bay is rebounding up slowly, instead of subsiding.

OffTheGrid

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Rebounding up slowly is exactly what you would expect.
How long ago it slipped I'm not sure. It may have been involved in the little ice age initiation, abandonment of  Viking settlements in Greenland. The Bristol channel Tsunami.
As for sensational claims. I watched a very good lecture by James Hansen last night on how scientific reticence and understatement is a huge problem.

Anyway. My ship is about to leave Comms range.
The mask used on south to central East Greenland has been updated to show current terrain positions. But still showing the 76-80 Nth movements.
Slow-slip processes have only in the last few years been proven to exist. 

If anyone here has a will and skill to watch this closely and analyse. May intestinal fortitude be with you.
I recommend the low bandwidth page on polar view that navigators rely on for survival. There is often many more tiles available there than the high bandwidth version.
In your own time.
Over and out.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2021, 09:17:12 AM by oren »

OffTheGrid

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James Hansen: Scientific reticence, a threat to humanity and nature.
 

HapHazard

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the larger the font the truer the statement

nukefix

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...
Northern Greenland has not "moved" - this is certain and provable.

The climate crisis does not give anyone permission to spread falsehoods, misconceptions or lies.

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Alleged movement of Northern Greenland Terrain over the last 30 years.
« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2021, 05:34:45 PM »
Greenland, of course, is spinning around in this universe as fast as we are when we're asleep at home.  :)

It is curious that certain maps have the water-edge mask no longer matching the land-sea boundary.  Did somebody add a spurious number into some attribute of the mask layer in the software, shifting it?  Lets, see:  10 km = about 6 miles = 1/10 of 60 miles = 1/10 of 1 minute of arc.  Is the displacement due N, S, E or W?

I'm very used to seeing masks showing where an ice shelf used to extend out to, but this is a totally different phenomenon.
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things.

nukefix

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Re: Alleged movement of Northern Greenland Terrain over the last 30 years.
« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2021, 10:17:30 AM »
It is probably caused by incorrect map projections used at some point of the processing. PolarView had these issues from the beginning.

OffTheGrid

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Re: Alleged movement of Northern Greenland Terrain over the last 30 years.
« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2021, 08:37:47 PM »
If you ballpark calculate what an average of say 1400psi (pressure head of a 1 km aquifer) X 1600sqinches per square meter, 24 Millon pounds per sq M, multiply by a millon for every km of the bowl wall.

Then the figure of 24,000,000,000,000 pounds, outwards force, on every linear km of the bowl of mountains that encircle the coast. The radar clearly shows the central domes as wet and crisscrossed with massive cracks, even Eosdis visuals, these cracks are plain to see. As summer drainage, fills these cracks, that propagate all the way down to the "gravelly swampy marsh like" base of the ice.
Therefore then the expansion pressure is to the pressure head of the two km dome, distributed throughout the sheet and porous strata and fault systems beneath.

Whatever happened in the final melt pulse 100000 years ago left only a little of Greenlands ice left in a shattered bent and twisted mess with piles of rock debris interleaved with the rubble. What ever did that, and it was not a slow process, is gearing up to do it again. Possibly even faster and more spectacular with humans species assistance.
None of the rotational motion to the north and west of the Northern sector, and the east and south motion  on the the central East Greenland coastal Terrain south of Central to NE fault zone that seems evident, from the difference between the operational Navigation chart from the American authority s, and ESA mask. Errors of up to 1/1000 of the circumference of the equator seem unlikely to be published.
But the slow slip and elastic behaviour of the Terrain that this seems to be portraying does not seem at all implausible given the physical processes at work.

nukefix

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Re: Alleged movement of Northern Greenland Terrain over the last 30 years.
« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2021, 03:15:25 PM »
But the slow slip and elastic behaviour of the Terrain that this seems to be portraying does not seem at all implausible given the physical processes at work.
Sorry but your understanding of the processes is not believable. N Greenland has not "moved" and we know this for sure from multiple independent sources (GPS, optical satellite imagery, SAR & InSAR).
« Last Edit: March 28, 2021, 04:06:41 PM by nukefix »

OffTheGrid

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Re: Alleged movement of Northern Greenland Terrain over the last 30 years.
« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2021, 09:14:08 PM »
Your trust in your public media releases is touching nukefix. But you KNOW NONE of those things.
In addition to the outwards pressure, the basal water can travel more freely through porous underground strata, capped by layerered flood Basalt regions like those being discussed. It's possible that the pressure head is sufficient to not just crack the loose poorly consolidated Stata and faults, but unburden the coastal surface layers from upwards hydraulic pressure from below. We have a lot more ice elevations in the middle of Greenland and less at the coasts. We have known for over thirty years about the processes that cause sudden ice sheet collapses. The subsurface water emissions are unknown so simply not mentioned in the majority of papers or brushed past as quickly as possible. But neglecting subbasal, Ice and water loss from Greenland is higher in its winter minimum than its summer max ten years ago.
 We've had two years of no earthquakes or volcanic information released publically, from Greenland or Antarctica.
I'm not going to reply to anymore wishthinking denialism without evidence.
If you have other sources for decent historic location of the Terrain and gridcoordinates, then post them. Paper charts in the library could be a good place to start.
There is no doubt that changes are taking place, but how fast, at present, and how fast are the changes changing. That is the question that is important here.
Images and comparisons please.
If there is an archive of SAR that goes back longer than the month retained by PV, that could be useful.

paolo

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Re: Alleged movement of Northern Greenland Terrain over the last 30 years.
« Reply #35 on: March 28, 2021, 10:30:51 PM »
Oren,
We have a problem:
> No one has time to waste on dismantling this nonsense.
> Our visionary has no doubts and does not give up
> These posts are starting to do a disservice to this forum and all those who contribute to it.

To OTG: the ONC's A-5 map has been completely wrong since its birth in 1968 and they knew it! That's why, already in 68, they added four at least three warnings and they give the exact coordinates of three two headlands.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2021, 10:54:37 PM by paolo »

oren

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Re: Alleged movement of Northern Greenland Terrain over the last 30 years.
« Reply #36 on: March 28, 2021, 11:18:28 PM »
I have humored OTG's ramblings in this thread for a while, but this has been going on too long and too wrong.
Thread closed, apologies to the readers who waded through this.