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Espen

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Arctic evolution
« on: March 18, 2021, 12:26:44 PM »
How about this one?
Have a ice day!

The Walrus

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Re: Arctic evolution
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2021, 01:41:54 PM »
There is no way it can fly.  Due to the haphazard way its wings flap and Its wings being too small to get its fat body off the ground.  Oh wait, that is the bumblebee.

Freegrass

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Re: Arctic evolution
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2021, 05:41:19 PM »
Small wings isn't the biggest problem. What muscles is he going to use to flap them? And that's why angels can't be real either... It has always bothered me. Glad I got that out of my system...  ;D ;D ;D
90% of the world is religious, but somehow "love thy neighbour" became "fuck thy neighbours", if they don't agree with your point of view.

WTF happened?

Freegrass

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Re: Arctic evolution
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2021, 05:47:19 PM »
Something I've always wondered about is why evolution hasn't given us real flying fish. Why has no fish taken to the sky yet?
90% of the world is religious, but somehow "love thy neighbour" became "fuck thy neighbours", if they don't agree with your point of view.

WTF happened?

The Walrus

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Re: Arctic evolution
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2021, 06:28:33 PM »
Something I've always wondered about is why evolution hasn't given us real flying fish. Why has no fish taken to the sky yet?

Maybe it is not the wing issue.  Perhaps it is the whole breathing oxygen with lungs rather than sequestering it through gills.

The Walrus

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Re: Arctic evolution
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2021, 06:29:47 PM »
Small wings isn't the biggest problem. What muscles is he going to use to flap them? And that's why angels can't be real either... It has always bothered me. Glad I got that out of my system... 

Angels only have wings in our artistic impressions of them.  Ancient writings never describe them with wings.

gerontocrat

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Re: Arctic evolution
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2021, 06:44:42 PM »
Something I've always wondered about is why evolution hasn't given us real flying fish. Why has no fish taken to the sky yet?
That would require two ways of getting O2 into the body. i.e. one while in water, the other when flying.

Perhaps that's why hybrid cars are crap.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

Freegrass

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Re: Arctic evolution
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2021, 07:04:19 PM »
Something I've always wondered about is why evolution hasn't given us real flying fish. Why has no fish taken to the sky yet?
That would require two ways of getting O2 into the body. i.e. one while in water, the other when flying.

Perhaps that's why hybrid cars are crap.
LOL...

That would have been the same for fish that started to come on land. They would have also had to have two ways of getting O2 into their body...

I think it has more to do with food. Fish fly to escape predators. But they came on land to feed. So my guess is that there were never enough insects above the water to feed on that they felt a need to fly.

A fish is the only animal that never developed flight, right? We have (had) flying mammals, reptiles, insects, but no fish...
« Last Edit: March 18, 2021, 07:13:22 PM by Freegrass »
90% of the world is religious, but somehow "love thy neighbour" became "fuck thy neighbours", if they don't agree with your point of view.

WTF happened?

oren

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Re: Arctic evolution
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2021, 07:29:57 PM »
Swimming in air and swimming in water require very different densities.

Freegrass

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Re: Arctic evolution
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2021, 08:07:19 PM »
Awesome David Attenborough fragment about flying fish. They can go pretty far, but then birds will eat them...  :'(
The second video speculates about Flish in 200 million years from now...



90% of the world is religious, but somehow "love thy neighbour" became "fuck thy neighbours", if they don't agree with your point of view.

WTF happened?

HapHazard

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Re: Arctic evolution
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2021, 03:27:00 AM »
If I call you out but go no further, the reason is Brandolini's law.

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Arctic evolution
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2021, 10:55:48 PM »
...
A fish is the only animal that never developed flight, right? We have (had) flying mammals, reptiles, insects, but no fish...
No amphibian has ever flown on their own accord, I expect.  (I'm reminded of raining frogs.)
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things because "we cannot negotiate with the melting point of ice"

Freegrass

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Re: Arctic evolution
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2021, 11:26:35 PM »
...
A fish is the only animal that never developed flight, right? We have (had) flying mammals, reptiles, insects, but no fish...
No amphibian has ever flown on their own accord, I expect.  (I'm reminded of raining frogs.)
True... But they already live in the water, and on land. So to have an animal that could swim, walk, and fly, that would truly be amazing...

Oh wait... Flying frogs you say?


90% of the world is religious, but somehow "love thy neighbour" became "fuck thy neighbours", if they don't agree with your point of view.

WTF happened?

gerontocrat

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Re: Arctic evolution
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2021, 11:10:11 AM »
It is even colder than the Arctic in space

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/mar/18/new-bacteria-lurking-on-iss-no-space-oddity-says-scientist
New bacteria lurking on ISS no space oddity, says scientist

New species were discovered in the International Space Station – but they probably didn’t come from outer space


The International Space Station is constantly resupplied with potentially non-sterile cargo. Photograph: Nasa/AFP/Getty Images
Quote
Four species of bacteria – three of them previously unknown to science – have been discovered onboard the International Space Station (ISS), begging questions about how they got there, and how they have managed to survive.

Their discovery may also bolster future efforts to cultivate crops during long spaceflight missions, since related species are known to promote the growth of plants and help them fight off pathogens.

Previous studies had suggested that certain resilient strains of bacteria could survive the harsh conditions of space, including dried pellets of Deinococcus bacteria – listed in the Guinness World Records as the world’s toughest – which survived on the space station’s surface for three years. They were deliberately placed there to test the “panspermia” theory, that life exists throughout the universe and may be transported between planets by space dust, asteroids, comets, or even contaminated spacecraft.

Another recent study identified a diverse population of bacteria and fungi associated with the human body inside the ISS, where they are somewhat more protected – though still subject to low gravity, recirculated air and high levels of carbon dioxide.

The new bacteria were similarly identified from swabs of various locations inside the ISS. One was discovered on a dining table; another on an overhead panel in a research area used to study low gravity; the third in the Cupola observatory. The fourth species, which was already known of, was found on an old air-purifying filter, which had been returned to Earth. All of them are rod-shaped bacteria belonging to the Methylobacteriaceae family – usually found in soil and fresh water, where they help to promote plant growth and defend against pathogens.

They’re most likely to have been transferred to the ISS from Earth – rather than coming from outer space – and have either survived since the station’s inception, or were introduced when new astronauts or payloads arrived.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

gerontocrat

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Re: Arctic evolution
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2023, 12:32:05 PM »
This is the first time I have stumbled across a paper describing specific effects in specific areas on climate from reduced sea ice area/. Paywalled.

https://rmets.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/joc.8008
Impact of sea ice cover shrinkage on the atmospheric conditions in mid and high latitudes of the Northern Hemisphere
Quote
Abstract
We found substantial differences in the atmospheric response to sea ice area (SIA) loss depending on sectors and seasons.

In the Eurasian sector, the highest SIA reduction occurred in the last 15 years, whereas in the American sector, single years of low SIA were also observed in the last two decades of the 20th century and at the beginning of the 21st century.

For years of the lowest SIA in the Eurasian sector, the strong warming in the Barents and Kara Seas (BKS) and cooling in central Asia is created, giving rise to the Warm Arctic Cold Eurasia (WACE) pattern development. The enhancement of high-pressure centre over Asia and the formation of Ural Blocking follows these anomalies. After the low SIA in May–June in the Eurasian sector, in summer, the very strong Greenland Blocking is created, reaching the North Pole and the whole of Eurasia (only in August), increasing in magnitude with altitude, which gives much warmer conditions in the North American high-latitude region (NAH), BKS, and Europe.

For the years of the lowest SIA in the American sector, the Pacific High is much more developed and extended in the entire vertical profile. This strong positive anomaly brings colder weather in Alaska and the western United States. It is most apparent after low SIA in summer and autumn and is probably due to significant changes in sea ice cover over the Chukchi Sea during that time. At the same time, the Aleutian Low is deepened in the Kamchatka neighbourhood.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

morganism

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Re: Arctic evolution
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2024, 01:23:52 AM »
(Money quote: Here we show marine proxy evidence for the disappearance of perennial sea-ice in the southern Lincoln Sea during the Early Holocene, which suggests a widespread transition to seasonal sea-ice in the Arctic Ocean.)

New evidence that polar bears survived 1,600 years of ice-free summers in the early Holocene


New evidence indicates that Arctic areas with the thickest ice today probably melted out every year during the summer for about 1,600 years during the early Holocene (ca. 11.3-9.7k years ago), making the Arctic virtually ice-free. As I argue in my new book, this means that polar bears and other Arctic species are capable of surviving extended periods with ice-free summers: otherwise, they would not be alive today.

Last Ice Area and Lincoln Sea

An illustration of the Last Ice Area in the Arctic, which is currently covered in perennial ice (2-4m thick) that does not melt out every summer.
(snip)
Figure S5 from the Detlef paper (below) shows that reduced sea ice during the early Holocene was widespread, with evidence for seasonal ice in the Barents, Beaufort and Laptev Seas as well as NE Greenland and the Lincoln Sea between northern Greenland and Ellesmere Island.

Evidence from several sources indicates that the Eemian produced conditions even warmer than documented during the early Holocene and they lasted longer, as explained in the excellent summary by Leonid Polyak and colleagues (2010). During the early portion of the Eemian at least (ca. 130-120k years ago), summer temperatures were about 5–8 degrees Celsius warmer than today and the Arctic was virtually ice-free. At about 120k years ago, there is evidence from Finland and the Norwegian Sea off Norway that a cooling event lasting 500-1,000 years broke the long stretch of warmth (Helmens et al. 2015).

Not only did polar bear survive these two extended periods when ice-free summers prevailed, but the Eemian warm summers came only about 10,000 years after the bears arose as a unique species. This makes polar bear survival through the Eemian even more impressive than most scientists acknowledge. The polar bears’ ability to store excess energy as fat in the spring and metabolize it later when needed must have been fine-tuned by natural selection during this challlenging time
(more)

https://polarbearscience.com/2023/06/16/new-evidence-that-polar-bears-survived-1600-years-of-ice-free-summers-in-the-early-holocene/


Seasonal sea-ice in the Arctic’s last ice area during the Early Holocene

https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-023-00720-w

According to climate models, the Lincoln Sea, bordering northern Greenland and Canada, will be the final stronghold of perennial Arctic sea-ice in a warming climate. However, recent observations of prolonged periods of open water raise concerns regarding its long-term stability. Modelling studies suggest a transition from perennial to seasonal sea-ice during the Early Holocene, a period of elevated global temperatures around 10,000 years ago. Here we show marine proxy evidence for the disappearance of perennial sea-ice in the southern Lincoln Sea during the Early Holocene, which suggests a widespread transition to seasonal sea-ice in the Arctic Ocean. Seasonal sea-ice conditions were tightly coupled to regional atmospheric temperatures. In light of anthropogenic warming and Arctic amplification our results suggest an imminent transition to seasonal sea-ice in the southern Lincoln Sea, even if the global temperature rise is kept below a threshold of 2 °C compared to pre-industrial (1850–1900).




Defining the “Ice Shed” of the Arctic Ocean's Last Ice Area and Its Future Evolution

https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2021EF001988