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Author Topic: Who has done the most for the climate in history?  (Read 5298 times)

Sigmetnow

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Re: Who has done the most for the climate in history?
« Reply #50 on: December 18, 2023, 07:40:09 PM »
Thank you for the thoughtful response.  Tesla’s net carbon reduction is significant. 

“In 2020, Tesla customers helped accelerate the world's transition to sustainable energy by avoiding 5.0 million metric tons of CO2e emissions.”
https://www.tesla.com/impact-report/2020

It is unfortunate Wendell Berry can’t package his ideas in a form people could implement directly.

===
How about one of these 3?

John B. Goodenough, M. Stanley Whittingham and Akira Yoshino who were awarded the Nobel in 2019 for their contributions to the development of the lithium-ion battery.
Good runners-up!
How much CO2 is being emitted by the cryptocurrencies Elon promotes?
How much CO2 is he putting into the air with his rockets and private jets?

Maybe one billionth of the amount that his companies are preventing?
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Steven

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Re: Who has done the most for the climate in history?
« Reply #51 on: December 18, 2023, 08:01:39 PM »
Tesla’s net carbon reduction is significant. 

“In 2020, Tesla customers helped accelerate the world's transition to sustainable energy by avoiding 5.0 million metric tons of CO2e emissions.”
https://www.tesla.com/impact-report/2020

That is negligeable.  Electric bikes alone reduce the global oil demand by much more (an order of magnitude, link) than all Tesla cars combined, even in 2023.  But this receives almost zero attention on this forum since it doesn't fit with the corporate propaganda agenda from the usual suspects.

The same is true for the electrified train network, which at least here in Western Europe is playing a much more important role for reducing CO2 emissions than electric cars so far.  And again there is practically zero mention of it on this car-obsessed forum.

zenith

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Re: Who has done the most for the climate in history?
« Reply #52 on: December 18, 2023, 08:15:00 PM »
Who invented the bicycle?
The bicycle has a complicated past fraught with controversy and misinformation.
https://www.livescience.com/44765-who-invented-the-bicycle.html

this sort of thing will probably do more than anything musk has ever done. no more planned obsolescence and proprietary garbage. they have a ton of interest from around the world as all sorts of vehicles large and small can be retrofitted. ambulances, firetrucks, busses, mining equipment, graders, dump trucks, semis, etc., etc.

you could make it full electric, just stack more batteries.

Diesel-Electric Pickup Retrofit Kit
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Richard Rathbone

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Re: Who has done the most for the climate in history?
« Reply #53 on: December 18, 2023, 08:46:31 PM »
Thank you for the thoughtful response.  Tesla’s net carbon reduction is significant. 

“In 2020, Tesla customers helped accelerate the world's transition to sustainable energy by avoiding 5.0 million metric tons of CO2e emissions.”
https://www.tesla.com/impact-report/2020

It is unfortunate Wendell Berry can’t package his ideas in a form people could implement directly.

===
How about one of these 3?

John B. Goodenough, M. Stanley Whittingham and Akira Yoshino who were awarded the Nobel in 2019 for their contributions to the development of the lithium-ion battery.
Good runners-up!
How much CO2 is being emitted by the cryptocurrencies Elon promotes?
How much CO2 is he putting into the air with his rockets and private jets?

Maybe one billionth of the amount that his companies are preventing?


Bitcoin alone had a carbon footprint of about 40 Mt in 2020 compared to Tesla's claim of 5 Mt saved. More like 10 times as much rather than a billion times less.

https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption


Sigmetnow

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Re: Who has done the most for the climate in history?
« Reply #54 on: December 18, 2023, 08:47:57 PM »
Tesla’s net carbon reduction is significant. 

“In 2020, Tesla customers helped accelerate the world's transition to sustainable energy by avoiding 5.0 million metric tons of CO2e emissions.”
https://www.tesla.com/impact-report/2020

That is negligeable.  Electric bikes alone reduce the global oil demand by much more (an order of magnitude, link) than all Tesla cars combined, even in 2023.  But this receives almost zero attention on this forum since it doesn't fit with the corporate propaganda agenda from the usual suspects.

The same is true for the electrified train network, which at least here in Western Europe is playing a much more important role for reducing CO2 emissions than electric cars so far.  And again there is practically zero mention of it on this car-obsessed forum.

Most roads are not designed for bikes.  Traveling them on a cycle is dangerous.  You can’t carry a load of groceries or multiple kids on a bike.  The elderly or infirm can’t ride a bike.  The number of people who would swap a car for a bike for any meaningful distance travel is very small.

People drive cars.  Using mostly ICE cars.  So the most likely method of reducing carbon emissions is to increase EVs and decrease ICE cars — not to beg people to ride bikes.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Who has done the most for the climate in history?
« Reply #55 on: December 18, 2023, 08:52:11 PM »
Thank you for the thoughtful response.  Tesla’s net carbon reduction is significant. 

“In 2020, Tesla customers helped accelerate the world's transition to sustainable energy by avoiding 5.0 million metric tons of CO2e emissions.”
https://www.tesla.com/impact-report/2020

It is unfortunate Wendell Berry can’t package his ideas in a form people could implement directly.

===
How about one of these 3?

John B. Goodenough, M. Stanley Whittingham and Akira Yoshino who were awarded the Nobel in 2019 for their contributions to the development of the lithium-ion battery.
Good runners-up!
How much CO2 is being emitted by the cryptocurrencies Elon promotes?
How much CO2 is he putting into the air with his rockets and private jets?

Maybe one billionth of the amount that his companies are preventing?


Bitcoin alone had a carbon footprint of about 40 Mt in 2020 compared to Tesla's claim of 5 Mt saved. More like 10 times as much rather than a billion times less.

https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption

Why does Musk or Tesla have to offset the entire Bitcoin footprint? 😂

The Tesla fleet in 2020 was about 1 million vehicles.  It’s now about four times that….

People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

zenith

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Re: Who has done the most for the climate in history?
« Reply #56 on: December 18, 2023, 09:54:07 PM »

The Tesla fleet in 2020 was about 1 million vehicles.  It’s now about four times that….

just a little ways to go then and we'll have about a 5% emissions reduction. 10 years later everyone will need to buy another new car again as they're throw away.

"If you want to know how many cars are there on Earth here you go: There are about 1.474 billion vehicles on Earth in 2023. About 19% of those vehicles are in the United States. Let’s dig into more detail on how many cars are there in the world and other global automotive stats, including cars per capita."
https://hedgescompany.com/blog/2021/06/how-many-cars-are-there-in-the-world/
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Espen

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Re: Who has done the most for the climate in history?
« Reply #57 on: December 18, 2023, 10:13:20 PM »
Tesla’s net carbon reduction is significant. 

“In 2020, Tesla customers helped accelerate the world's transition to sustainable energy by avoiding 5.0 million metric tons of CO2e emissions.”
https://www.tesla.com/impact-report/2020

Most roads are not designed for bikes.  Traveling them on a cycle is dangerous.  You can’t carry a load of groceries or multiple kids on a bike.  The elderly or infirm can’t ride a bike.  The number of people who would swap a car for a bike for any meaningful distance travel is very small.

People drive cars.  Using mostly ICE cars.  So the most likely method of reducing carbon emissions is to increase EVs and decrease ICE cars — not to beg people to ride bikes.

Most roads are not designed for bikes!
Traveling them on a cycle is dangerous.
You can’t carry a load of groceries or multiple kids on a bike.
The elderly or infirm can’t ride a bike.
The number of people who would swap a car for a bike for any meaningful distance travel is very small.

You have really got into the issues here with the above claims.
Tell me what do you do besides cut and paste all this Tesla propaganda, do you get paid for it? Or that which is worse? But you clearly haven't been much around as you seem to be imprisoned in your American bubble!
With an EV penetration of less than 8%, the US is a developing country when it comes to EVs! And apparently this also applies when it comes to bicycles!!!

It will take years for Tesla and other EV manufacturers to change the relationship between EVs and ICEs in the US, so it will take a "few" more years to even consider Musk a climate hero!




Have a ice day!

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Re: Who has done the most for the climate in history?
« Reply #58 on: December 18, 2023, 11:03:44 PM »
Tesla’s net carbon reduction is significant. 

“In 2020, Tesla customers helped accelerate the world's transition to sustainable energy by avoiding 5.0 million metric tons of CO2e emissions.”
https://www.tesla.com/impact-report/2020

That is negligeable.  Electric bikes alone reduce the global oil demand by much more (an order of magnitude, link) than all Tesla cars combined, even in 2023.  But this receives almost zero attention on this forum since it doesn't fit with the corporate propaganda agenda from the usual suspects.

The same is true for the electrified train network, which at least here in Western Europe is playing a much more important role for reducing CO2 emissions than electric cars so far.  And again there is practically zero mention of it on this car-obsessed forum.
The whole forum is not car obsessed just the subset who visit those threads.

There are not that many trains compared to cars so I doubt that electrification of trains is having a bigger impact than electrification of cars. Riding a train instead of car electric or not will likely reduce your footprint more than driving an electric car but that is something else entirely.

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Re: Who has done the most for the climate in history?
« Reply #59 on: December 18, 2023, 11:22:16 PM »
The question is do we start from the world we live in as it actually is or some fantasy of how it might eventually be? Millions drive ice cars every day right now. If they switched to trains or bikes that would be better for the environment no doubt. Car drivers are buying cars regularly right now. Would it be better for the environment if they stopped buying cars? Yes but if those who do buy cars buy electric instead that is better than buying ICE cars.




Rodius

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Re: Who has done the most for the climate in history?
« Reply #60 on: December 19, 2023, 01:11:34 AM »
I've decided on Al Gore. His film, An Inconvenient Truth, has done more to wake the world up to climate change than anyone else before him. Yes, James Hansen was the first, but nobody knew about it back then. It was An Inconvenient Truth that really woke up the world. There was a before, and an after that film. That's why I'm going for Al Gore, who, together with Obama, was also a major help in getting the Paris Climate Agreement signed.

Al Gore’s deranged alarmism is the never-ending fuel for deniers.

At least Jim Hansen is a scientist and called the attention when very few knew about it. (1980’s much earlier than that science-fiction piece from 2006).

You like videos..... here is someone with expertise in climate matters who goes through the movie.

You might to back up the claims that Al Gore's movie was alarmist before you start spouting off like that.


SeanAU

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Re: Who has done the most for the climate in history?
« Reply #61 on: December 19, 2023, 04:08:01 AM »


It's got some plusses, but do you think it needs more Cow Bell? I do.
It's wealth, constantly seeking more wealth, to better seek still more wealth. Building wealth off of destruction. That's what's consuming the world. And is driving humans crazy at the same time.

SeanAU

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Re: Who has done the most for the climate in history?
« Reply #62 on: December 19, 2023, 04:29:14 AM »


You like videos..... here is someone with expertise in climate matters who goes through the movie.

You might to back up the claims that Al Gore's movie was alarmist before you start spouting off like that.

I really liked and agree with his summary, especially the ending and the extra error.
It's wealth, constantly seeking more wealth, to better seek still more wealth. Building wealth off of destruction. That's what's consuming the world. And is driving humans crazy at the same time.

Steven

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Re: Who has done the most for the climate in history?
« Reply #63 on: December 19, 2023, 06:40:51 PM »
The question is do we start from the world we live in as it actually is or some fantasy of how it might eventually be?

Yet another Tesla propagandist misrepresenting my comment. >:(

You're ignoring my main point:  the numbers that sigmetnow posted, simply show that the CO2 reduction due to Tesla cars is negligible at this point.  Even in 2023 it's well below 0.05% of total global CO2 emissions and, as I mentioned, it's even an order of magnitude less than the global CO2 reduction resulting from all electric bikes (including electric mopeds/scooters etc which are extremely popular in Asia).

It will take several more doublings of the number of electric cars before it reaches a level that is even remotely significant on a global level.

"Who has done the most for the climate in history"?  In my opinion that would be the scientists and engineers who developed and improved nuclear energy, hydro, solar and wind energy technology.

kassy

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Re: Who has done the most for the climate in history?
« Reply #64 on: December 19, 2023, 07:12:43 PM »
But that barely makes a dent because we use what we got.

Overall we are all equal with doing not enough?
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Rodius

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Re: Who has done the most for the climate in history?
« Reply #65 on: December 20, 2023, 03:34:42 AM »
But that barely makes a dent because we use what we got.

Overall we are all equal with doing not enough?

I think we are not equal in how much we do.

Overall, the bottom half of poor people contribute less emissions than the top 1 percent.

On an individual level, my family contributes less than half the emissions of the average Australian and it would be less if public transport was good enough to get my wife to work at 6am or she decided to get the electric scooter I keep offering to buy her if she sold the very small car that we own just to get her to work.

Sadly, most of the fixes required to reduce my personal emissions involve a Govt doing the right things like more non-fossil fuel power plants, better bike paths and so on. But if everyone decided to find a way to halve their emissions via the removal of cars or minimalistic living, then it would go a long way toward destabilising the economic method of capitalism as well... which one must admit, would do wonders for the emissions being expelled.

Still, to keep this on topic, the person who will do the most in climate history is likely to be the masses and not one person or even a group of people... and it certainly will not be any billionaire ever.

If the masses don't act up, those in power wouldn't change a thing and those that do only do it because the masses allow it to change.

Could you imagine any political leader in any country that will make a stand and ban all cars and still be there next week?
That is what we need to do... and throw in regrowth on top of that. If the masses are no onboard, it wont happen.

kassy

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Re: Who has done the most for the climate in history?
« Reply #66 on: December 20, 2023, 05:41:12 PM »
Quote
Overall, the bottom half of poor people contribute less emissions than the top 1 percent.

True enough. I was thinking more of us as our typical forum population mapped to the world. So Europe, US and Australia/NZ.

So those countries that emitted most historically. It should only be logical that they would lead with carbon reductions but of course that logic is not valid in the real world.

People want to keep what they got so you can forget about the masses.
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gerontocrat

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Re: Who has done the most for the climate in history?
« Reply #67 on: December 20, 2023, 06:37:31 PM »
Quote
Overall, the bottom half of poor people contribute less emissions than the top 1 percent.

True enough. I was thinking more of us as our typical forum population mapped to the world. So Europe, US and Australia/NZ.

So those countries that emitted most historically. It should only be logical that they would lead with carbon reductions but of course that logic is not valid in the real world.

People want to keep what they got so you can forget about the masses.
And the have-nots are saying "it's our turn now", and who can blame them.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
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Rodius

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Re: Who has done the most for the climate in history?
« Reply #68 on: December 21, 2023, 02:22:36 AM »
Quote
Overall, the bottom half of poor people contribute less emissions than the top 1 percent.

True enough. I was thinking more of us as our typical forum population mapped to the world. So Europe, US and Australia/NZ.

So those countries that emitted most historically. It should only be logical that they would lead with carbon reductions but of course that logic is not valid in the real world.

People want to keep what they got so you can forget about the masses.
And the have-nots are saying "it's our turn now", and who can blame them.

If those countries skip the fossil fuel stage and go straight to renewables, that would be better.

Sadly, Saudi Arabia has plans and is acting on said plans to stop poor countries from doing that and encouraging fossil fuel car buying and building roads to encourage usage to compensate for reduced fossil fuel car usage in richer countries.

Saudi Arabi has a long plan to keep increasing oil products for as long as possible.

kassy

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Re: Who has done the most for the climate in history?
« Reply #69 on: December 22, 2023, 05:38:54 PM »
Lets not get too off topic.

Another problem with the bottom half using very little energy is that they can not reduce it to do ´more for climate´.

As just a person there is only so much you can do, the governments pursue growth etc.

Since we have done nothing so far which actually changes a thing for climate like honoring the Paris pledges no one did enough. Some people raised awareness but it has not lead to meaningful action. If you add up the worst plans posted in the last few days the problem is only going to get worse.
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zenith

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Re: Who has done the most for the climate in history?
« Reply #70 on: December 24, 2023, 03:06:38 AM »
buildings, and heating/cooling, produce the largest amount of greenhouse gasses and they last 50-60-70-100Yrs.
do the maths.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2023, 06:41:29 PM by zenith »
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Who has done the most for the climate in history?
« Reply #71 on: December 24, 2023, 04:14:09 PM »
Sad that all the forum can do is point fingers at those they think should be doing more for the climate, and can’t take a moment to acknowledge what positive work has been done, which was the purpose of this thread.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Espen

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Re: Who has done the most for the climate in history?
« Reply #72 on: December 24, 2023, 04:39:48 PM »
Sad that all the forum can do is point fingers at those they think should be doing more for the climate, and can’t take a moment to acknowledge what positive work has been done, which was the purpose of this thread.

After all, you would only be satisfied if only your Guru was chosen, wouldn't you?
Have a ice day!

oren

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Re: Who has done the most for the climate in history?
« Reply #73 on: December 24, 2023, 06:26:29 PM »
Became curious about this. What are some candidates for people whose actions have led to the biggest reduction of GHG emissions? Whether it's activists spreading awareness, politicians that successfully pushed climate-friendly policy, scientists/engineers inventing climate-friendly tech, or businesspeople getting the market to adopt those techs.

Any names that deserve more recognition?

I’m still waiting for anyone to name a person who has done more to get the world off fossil fuels than He Who Must Not Be Named.
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,4136.msg389888.html#msg389888

Not someone who has talked to a lot of people about it.
Or took a personal stand against it.
Or encouraged other people to act.
Not someone responsible for killing people, or population control.

Someone who is personally responsible for physical actions that have resulted in reducing people’s use and dependence on fossil fuels today, more than Elon Musk.

You’ve done the hating.  Now: a name, or accept that there isn’t anyone who has done more.

Sad that all the forum can do is point fingers at those they think should be doing more for the climate, and can’t take a moment to acknowledge what positive work has been done, which was the purpose of this thread.


Do you see Sig, you have moved the goalposts, set the criteria on an unlevel playing field, and then you complain about the result.
The Chinese person who prevented 100s of millions of births and much delayed the overshoot, buying humanity time to implement renewable energy and electric cars and whatever else before imminent civilization collapse - hasn't killed anyone - certainly was responsible for physical actions in reducing use and dependence on fossil fuels - but is not worthy in your opinion. Those that wrote the research "The Limits to Growth". Hansen. Thunberg. Gore. Inventors of Li Ion batteries, solar cells, wind turbines. Even the inventors of the electric car. Indeed, very positive work has been done which should be acknowledged. All of the above are not worthy in your opinion, despite their cumulative effect probably much larger than Musk's - though he does deserve much credit in making electric cars economically viable and popularizing them, and another positive mark for pushing forward grid tied batteries and home batteries. A negative mark though for helping sow discord and uncertainty via Twitter (sorry, X). Note Musk's contribution to solar energy itself is very small, despite many songs of praise self-sung and echoed by sycophants.
When Elon Musk is the only answer accepted, it is not the forum that is the problem.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Who has done the most for the climate in history?
« Reply #74 on: December 24, 2023, 08:32:45 PM »
Became curious about this. What are some candidates for people whose actions have led to the biggest reduction of GHG emissions? Whether it's activists spreading awareness, politicians that successfully pushed climate-friendly policy, scientists/engineers inventing climate-friendly tech, or businesspeople getting the market to adopt those techs.

Any names that deserve more recognition?

I’m still waiting for anyone to name a person who has done more to get the world off fossil fuels than He Who Must Not Be Named.
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,4136.msg389888.html#msg389888

Not someone who has talked to a lot of people about it.
Or took a personal stand against it.
Or encouraged other people to act.
Not someone responsible for killing people, or population control.

Someone who is personally responsible for physical actions that have resulted in reducing people’s use and dependence on fossil fuels today, more than Elon Musk.

You’ve done the hating.  Now: a name, or accept that there isn’t anyone who has done more.

Sad that all the forum can do is point fingers at those they think should be doing more for the climate, and can’t take a moment to acknowledge what positive work has been done, which was the purpose of this thread.


Do you see Sig, you have moved the goalposts, set the criteria on an unlevel playing field, and then you complain about the result.
The Chinese person who prevented 100s of millions of births and much delayed the overshoot, buying humanity time to implement renewable energy and electric cars and whatever else before imminent civilization collapse - hasn't killed anyone - certainly was responsible for physical actions in reducing use and dependence on fossil fuels - but is not worthy in your opinion. Those that wrote the research "The Limits to Growth". Hansen. Thunberg. Gore. Inventors of Li Ion batteries, solar cells, wind turbines. Even the inventors of the electric car. Indeed, very positive work has been done which should be acknowledged. All of the above are not worthy in your opinion, despite their cumulative effect probably much larger than Musk's - though he does deserve much credit in making electric cars economically viable and popularizing them, and another positive mark for pushing forward grid tied batteries and home batteries. A negative mark though for helping sow discord and uncertainty via Twitter (sorry, X). Note Musk's contribution to solar energy itself is very small, despite many songs of praise self-sung and echoed by sycophants.
When Elon Musk is the only answer accepted, it is not the forum that is the problem.

====

Sad that all the forum can do is point fingers at those they think should be doing more for the climate, and can’t take a moment to acknowledge what positive work has been done, which was the purpose of this thread.
 
Even when I purposely did not ask for names this time, He Who Must Not Be Named triggers people.  Even when I don’t mention him! 

Quote
Indeed, very positive work has been done which should be acknowledged.
And that’s exactly what I was driving at!  THANK YOU.
 
Quote
All of the above are not worthy in your opinion…
Totally incorrect.
I was thinking of many of the things you mention.  And, saddened that it took so long to mention them here.

Sorry, not sorry, I don’t think killing people (and millions? of Chinese babies were killed, especially females, during the birth limits), is a positive thing. YMMV.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Espen

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Re: Who has done the most for the climate in history?
« Reply #75 on: December 24, 2023, 08:53:00 PM »
Became curious about this. What are some candidates for people whose actions have led to the biggest reduction of GHG emissions? Whether it's activists spreading awareness, politicians that successfully pushed climate-friendly policy, scientists/engineers inventing climate-friendly tech, or businesspeople getting the market to adopt those techs.

Any names that deserve more recognition?

I’m still waiting for anyone to name a person who has done more to get the world off fossil fuels than He Who Must Not Be Named.
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,4136.msg389888.html#msg389888

Not someone who has talked to a lot of people about it.
Or took a personal stand against it.
Or encouraged other people to act.
Not someone responsible for killing people, or population control.

Someone who is personally responsible for physical actions that have resulted in reducing people’s use and dependence on fossil fuels today, more than Elon Musk.

You’ve done the hating.  Now: a name, or accept that there isn’t anyone who has done more.

Sad that all the forum can do is point fingers at those they think should be doing more for the climate, and can’t take a moment to acknowledge what positive work has been done, which was the purpose of this thread.


Do you see Sig, you have moved the goalposts, set the criteria on an unlevel playing field, and then you complain about the result.
The Chinese person who prevented 100s of millions of births and much delayed the overshoot, buying humanity time to implement renewable energy and electric cars and whatever else before imminent civilization collapse - hasn't killed anyone - certainly was responsible for physical actions in reducing use and dependence on fossil fuels - but is not worthy in your opinion. Those that wrote the research "The Limits to Growth". Hansen. Thunberg. Gore. Inventors of Li Ion batteries, solar cells, wind turbines. Even the inventors of the electric car. Indeed, very positive work has been done which should be acknowledged. All of the above are not worthy in your opinion, despite their cumulative effect probably much larger than Musk's - though he does deserve much credit in making electric cars economically viable and popularizing them, and another positive mark for pushing forward grid tied batteries and home batteries. A negative mark though for helping sow discord and uncertainty via Twitter (sorry, X). Note Musk's contribution to solar energy itself is very small, despite many songs of praise self-sung and echoed by sycophants.
When Elon Musk is the only answer accepted, it is not the forum that is the problem.

====

Sad that all the forum can do is point fingers at those they think should be doing more for the climate, and can’t take a moment to acknowledge what positive work has been done, which was the purpose of this thread.
 
Even when I purposely did not ask for names this time, He Who Must Not Be Named triggers people.  Even when I don’t mention him! 

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Indeed, very positive work has been done which should be acknowledged.
And that’s exactly what I was driving at!  THANK YOU.
 
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All of the above are not worthy in your opinion…
Totally incorrect.
I was thinking of many of the things you mention.  And, saddened that it took so long to mention them here.

Sorry, not sorry, I don’t think killing people (and millions? of Chinese babies were killed, especially females, during the birth limits), is a positive thing. YMMV.

You really try to push yourself to the limits, what is your motivation for this behavior?
Have a ice day!

gerontocrat

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Re: Who has done the most for the climate in history?
« Reply #76 on: December 24, 2023, 10:08:55 PM »
I reject all the nominations, as you are all trapped in a reductionist theory of Historical Change; namely "The Great Man Theory" exemplified by Thomas Carlyle, which in it's worst manifestation resulted in Social Darwinism, and later the weird "philosophy" of Ayn Rand so beloved of acolytes from Alan Greenspan to many of the current BigTech Masters of the Universe.

https://www.tor.com/2019/11/18/history-and-sff-storytelling-what-drives-historical-change/
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The Great Man Theory and Historical Change in SFF

The question of what factors drive historical change has intrigued historians from the very beginning, when the earliest scholars first turned their attention to studying and interpreting the past. To find the answer(s) to this key question, historians make use of social science theories. These theories help make sense of the inherent contradictions found in human behavior and human society.

For example, there is the theory that shifting generations drive historical change—as in, as one generation dies off, it’s gradually replaced by another with a different set of values and priorities. The many “Millennials vs. Boomers”-related hot takes of the moment are examples of this view of history.

Technological innovations have often been viewed as driving historical change. Usually, one innovation in particular is given credit for changing the world: for example, the introduction of the printing press in 15th century Europe, or the invention of the Internet towards the end of the 20th century.

Race has also been used to explain historical change, especially in the form of scientific racism. Scientific racism is an amalgamation of Imperialism and social Darwinism, which is Charles Darwin’s “survival of the fittest” applied to industrial capitalism. The application of scientific racism is where problematic concepts of historical change brought about by the supremacy of white men find room to breath, which in turn provides the foundation for the alleged superiority of western civilization.

Historians today have largely abandoned these theories because they are reductionist, and, in the cases of scientific racism and social Darwinism, also based on pseudo-science. We use the term “reductionist” because these theories reduce complex historical processes to a single cause or event, which leads to a skewed representation of history. This is where certain individuals, organizations, and institutions are written out of history simply because they don’t fit the mold or don’t fit into a selective narrative.

Instead, modern historians use theories that take in as many aspects of society as possible and which avoid making any kind of predictions. One such theory is the theory of the long duration (la longue durée), which is based on the relativity of time. Another is the theory of structuration, which is based on the interaction between individuals and structures that causes change from within society. Historians also use theories of socio-economics, social networks, and the distribution of power.

But even though historians have moved on to more complex theories to attempt to explain historical change, reductionist theories are still employed in fiction and certain genres of popular history. Why? Because they often make for very compelling storytelling.

One of the most persistent reductionist theories to explain historical change is The Great Man Theory, which explains history as the result of actions taken by extraordinary individuals who, because of their charismatic personalities, their superior intellect, or because of divine providence, single-handedly changed the course of history.

The Great Man Theory has been attributed to Scottish philosopher Thomas Carlyle (1795–1881), who stated, “the history of the world is but the biography of men,” providing names such as Martin Luther, Oliver Cromwell, and Jean-Jacques Rousseau as examples to prove his point. If this sounds familiar, it’s because this type of history is what we tend to find on the history shelves of booksellers and libraries. Just think of the phenomenon of Hamilton, based on a biography of Alexander Hamilton, until then one of the lesser known Founding Fathers. Or take a look at the most recent winners and finalists of the Pulitzer Prize for History where not one book focuses on the great deeds of a woman, let alone mentions a woman’s name in its title. Instead we find books on the lives of men such as Frederick Douglass, General Custer, and Abraham Lincoln.

The idea of individual men driving historical change can be traced as far back as the Ancient Greeks and their ideal of excellence and moral virtue (arête, ἀρετή), but Carlyle was the one who merged history with the Renaissance idea of the lone genius as it was interpreted within Romanticism. The problem with Carlyle’s theory is that he celebrated the individual man without taking into account the larger circumstances that shaped the world and the times that that man lived in, and in doing so, tells only one part of a full, complex story of the past.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

zenith

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Re: Who has done the most for the climate in history?
« Reply #77 on: December 24, 2023, 10:29:40 PM »
The Chinese person who prevented 100s of millions of births and much delayed the overshoot

what the chinese did with their massive building boom and ghost cities will go down as one of the worst climate crimes in history. really poorly constructed and not insulated worth a damn. it gave people something to do for work and it was a casino but it's an environmental nightmare.
Where is reality? Can you show it to me? - Heinz von Foerster

oren

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Re: Who has done the most for the climate in history?
« Reply #78 on: December 24, 2023, 11:44:24 PM »
Now imagine China having done the same building boom but with 50% more population. Human civilization probably would have collapsed already.

zenith

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Re: Who has done the most for the climate in history?
« Reply #79 on: December 25, 2023, 01:29:23 AM »
i'd prefer to imagine they did the building boom with well insulated buildings that were made to last at least 80 years.
Where is reality? Can you show it to me? - Heinz von Foerster

Rodius

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Re: Who has done the most for the climate in history?
« Reply #80 on: December 25, 2023, 07:08:09 AM »
i'd prefer to imagine they did the building boom with well insulated buildings that were made to last at least 80 years.

Yep, it makes no sense ot build the building they did to the standards the did other than to make as much money as possible at the expense of the masses..... sounds like the US lol.... but anyway, China could have done it a lot better given the it ability to plan things with no restrictions and from an empty canvas.

China completely failed with this.

oren

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Re: Who has done the most for the climate in history?
« Reply #81 on: December 25, 2023, 07:48:06 AM »
It's a race to the bottom, the whole world failed, each with their own version of failure, and with varying magnitudes. But that's veering off topic.

El Cid

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Re: Who has done the most for the climate in history?
« Reply #82 on: December 25, 2023, 08:19:55 AM »
"The Chinese person who prevented 100s of millions of births and much delayed the overshoot"

In reality studies show that China's birth trajectory was not much influenced by the one-child policy. The same happened at a pretty similar rate in other E.Asian countries at the same level of development (see HK, Singapore, S.Korea, etc). Emancipation, education, urbanization, economic growth were the real drivers.

kassy

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Re: Who has done the most for the climate in history?
« Reply #83 on: December 25, 2023, 09:19:59 AM »
Veering off topic again. Will clean this up later.
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.