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Author Topic: Forum Decorum  (Read 23475 times)

DavidR

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Forum Decorum
« on: May 26, 2016, 02:39:55 PM »
Decorum: behaviour in keeping with good taste and propriety.

Various people have made suggestions about how to make the forum more focussed and less cluttered. Here are some of them, feel free to add your own pet peeves.
  • Consider whether readers of the forum would benefit from your comment before posting.
  • Posting multiple times in a row is generally against forum etiquette. If you have something additional to add and your post is still the last in a thread, edit your post.
  • If you have multiple people to reply to, do it in a single post.
  • When quoting someone else, try to cut away all the text that isn't pertinent to your answer.
  • Avoid comments which contain more blurb than information
  • Avoid personal comment which says very little of interest.
  • Avoid long winded sign offs. 1 line is acceptable, 3 lines or more is a self indulgence.
  • Avoid reposting images in the same thread. .
  • Where possible include a link rather than regurgitating swathes of information. But can we please have at least a small synopsis of what the link is referring to.
  • And those left-open parentheses : I have to say I  don't personally  agree with  complaints based on poor spelling, language difficulties or predictive text
  • Avoid starting multiple threads about the same subject,  check for an existing thread
  • Use a different thread if the subject is off topic for the one you are on
  • If you think a particular poster is behaving inappropriately, try sending them a PM and explain to them what you think they are doing wrong and how they could improve.
  • keep calm and reply tomorrow
We can tolerate some of this stuff, but rather not in well-frequented threads.
It should be understood that these types of "rules" aren't meant to censor. Each and every one of us has a personality, and that should be allowed to shine through in our comments .

"I for one would really like a 'Like' button.": Unfortunately  this is not currently possible on this platform
« Last Edit: May 31, 2016, 06:57:46 AM by DavidR »
Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore

DoomInTheUK

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Re: Forum Decoruim
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2016, 04:35:18 PM »
  • Where possible include a link rather than regurgitating swathes of information.

But can we please have at least a small synopsis of what the link is referring to.

Neven

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Re: Forum Decoruim
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2016, 05:05:08 PM »
  • Don't open threads in the wrong category
  • Avoid typos

Just kidding, DavidR. Thanks for opening this thread. I'll be sure to refer to it.

I can tolerate some of this stuff, but rather not in well-frequented threads. Like sis says, things are going pretty well, I'd say. I barely have to moderate, and I'm the only moderator (with Dungeon Master providing back-up when needed.
Compare, compare, compare

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2016, 05:13:46 PM »
And those left-open parentheses  ;D  ::)

I certainly appreciate the request/demand to keep the busiest threads free from jokes, asides, off-topic comments and 'bulk'.  And I also appreciate the humor, dry or unintentional, that happens within this community, and often enjoy reading the banter between my co-commenters.  And now I'll just refuse to enjoy such behavior when on the currently-favored threads.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2016, 01:09:08 AM by Tor Bejnar »
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pccp82

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2016, 12:29:55 AM »
especially since i am just interested in this topic and not an expert, I go with this:

2 ears, one mouth.


Eli81

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2016, 10:33:13 AM »
Thanks for posting, these are definitely things everyone should keep in mind. I think there is an element of excitement this year especially.

It should be understood that these types of "rules" aren't meant to censor. Each and every one of us has a personality, and that should be allowed to shine through in our comments - nobody expects you to be a robot, and its natural for humans to have conversations. Over time, friendships develop, etc.

Forums are really an amazing tool to share information, and our lives - even if just a little bit. Never before has humanity been able to socialize and discuss such important topics on such a scale. I'm quite sure it has and continues to have profound impacts on humanity. It's true that most people "dig in" when confronted with a reality they don't believe in or agree with, but there has also been tremendous enlightenment and education.

The rules shouldn't be set in stone; constant censorship will indeed scare people away. I'm sure Neven is quite aware of this. He does an excellent job of moderating here. Casual and laid back, just like any other member - with perhaps some gentle prodding here and there.  But will put his foot down when necessary, and that's exactly how it should be. Nobody should feel like they are walking on eggshells.  Feel free to talk and comment.. Just when you do it, try and post something relevant to the thread too. That's far better than not, at least. 

Also, this:



Made for another forum, but still relevant.   ;D

seaicesailor

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2016, 11:44:32 AM »
Love the edits, great list and idea DavidR. It is good to have it for reference.
I should add 'keep calm and reply tomorrow'.

Anne

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2016, 12:06:39 PM »
I don't know if it's possible, or whether if it's possible it would be a good idea, but I for one would really like a 'Like' button. I often want to express appreciation of a post but don't because I don't want to clog up the threads. Other people are less inhibited. I reckon it would reduce the number of contentless posts.

P-maker

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2016, 12:15:20 PM »
Or rather,

Act today and post tomorrow!

Andreas T

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2016, 02:29:16 PM »
I don't know if it's possible, or whether if it's possible it would be a good idea, but I for one would really like a 'Like' button. I often want to express appreciation of a post but don't because I don't want to clog up the threads. Other people are less inhibited. I reckon it would reduce the number of contentless posts.
I agree (thereby adding an almost contentless post)  ;)
I think the commenters here are mostly grown up enough to not turn this into some popularity contest. If it turns into a distraction it could be dropped at any time?
« Last Edit: May 29, 2016, 02:34:23 PM by Andreas T »

magnamentis

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2016, 07:13:06 PM »
I don't know if it's possible, or whether if it's possible it would be a good idea, but I for one would really like a 'Like' button. I often want to express appreciation of a post but don't because I don't want to clog up the threads. Other people are less inhibited. I reckon it would reduce the number of contentless posts.

yes, thanks for posting this, i posted the proposal earlier this year and if many enough mention this from time to time, it will eventually happen. a simple thanks/like button is cleaner and also less prone to blabla.. than to show appreciation in words. 100% concur and it would definitely help to keep the ever growing forum clean that was a topic as well recently.

:good:
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oren

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2016, 07:20:05 PM »
Avoid starting multiple threads about the same subject.

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2016, 01:48:56 AM »
Last year, and probably before, some have asked for a "like" button.  I recall Neven sharing that the system we use here (don't know the techno-jargon) doesn't have the capability.
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A-Team

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2016, 04:41:37 AM »
That is an interesting concept. For example, the top 25 'likes' of the week (month?) might make a fairly good reading list for people too busy to follow the daily goings on over so many forums.

magnamentis

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2016, 02:08:21 PM »
That is an interesting concept. For example, the top 25 'likes' of the week (month?) might make a fairly good reading list for people too busy to follow the daily goings on over so many forums.

true that, added this in another thread:

http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,28.msg78542.html#msg78542
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ael

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2016, 05:56:58 PM »
If you think a particular poster is behaving inappropriately, try sending them a PM and explain to them what you think they are doing wrong and how they could improve.

Pointing out their failures publicly is inevitably an off topic post, can lead to a flame war and likely will wind up with the loss of a participant.  Only do it if you are willing to drive that person off the forums (or be tossed off yourself if it turns out that more people want them than you!)

magnamentis

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2016, 07:46:42 PM »
If you think a particular poster is behaving inappropriately, try sending them a PM and explain to them what you think they are doing wrong and how they could improve.

Pointing out their failures publicly is inevitably an off topic post, can lead to a flame war and likely will wind up with the loss of a participant.  Only do it if you are willing to drive that person off the forums (or be tossed off yourself if it turns out that more people want them than you!)

while what you say is correct i'm not quite sure what or whom you mean. if you are OT on the like button, as far as i remember no-one has ever asked for a dislike button, just for the thumb-up, which is why i call it "thanks" button. should you have meant something else or someone specific that info was missing and you could perhaps elaborate :-) even via PM if you find that more appropriate. sorry that when i missed something, just wasn't sure and couldn't make a clear connection, no offense meant.
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ael

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2016, 09:16:47 PM »
I was not talking about the like button.

I was simply sharing some of my observations about what ought to be considered useful conduct on this forum and others. (i.e. decorum).

Better to critique a person's behaviour in private (at first anyway).
It is hard for people to continue to participate once they have been publicly shamed.

magnamentis

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2016, 10:49:50 PM »
ok, thanks for the clarification :-)

as already stated i fully agree with your statement but then i must say that this forum is quite nice to read as compared to others.

i'm active in over 150 forums for professional reasons and this forum is really ok.

human deficiencies happen everywhere, and they're often relative and even good folks cam loose their temper from time to time.

enjoy furhter :-)
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 09:39:47 PM by magnamentis »
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Susan Anderson

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2018, 09:03:35 PM »
This forum is a wonderful (the best?) resource for a variety of topics, except for the navel-gazing quality of some of the stubborn condemnatory exchanges about our horrid US political situation. However, I dropped in not to say that - already breaking my own rule - but to suggest an old saw:

Is it kind? Is it true? Is it necessary?

DungeonMaster

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2018, 12:37:12 AM »
The Like Button just landed.


...(yes I know, Santa is late this year... or was it Easter Bunny ?
This forum helps me to feel less uncomfortable about "doing something" about the melting Arctic and the warming world.
Read again  Maslowski paper : why Arctic could melt in 2016 +/- 3Y !

Sterks

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2018, 05:46:33 PM »
What A-Team means is that the proportion of posts in the forum having zero or near-zero relevance to arctic sea ice or to climate change in general has been rising rapidly, diluting the forum's contents and sharply increasing the level of animosity. When I first stumbled on this forum a few years back the amount of such garbage was negligent, and working down the unread topics list was a very strong introduction and educational experience. It took me months of lurking to dare post something, due to the high level of science-oriented discussions. Nowadays the unread topics list is mostly a heap of threads where the same tired posters incessantly bash each other over frivolities. Certainly this lowers the attractiveness of the forum for new and current science-oriented users, who may wander off to other sites or quit altogether, while rant-oriented users are attracted and proliferate.
Oren:
* Gerontocrat should not take A-Team's tone well, nobody should, especially when Gerontocrat is not littering the main thread by any means.
* A-Team's posts are above, out of reach in quality and in scientific understanding than any other contributor, including the likes of Wipneus and Neven, to mention two names.
* But this superb level coupled with that nasty aggressiveness has forced some valid contributors out of this thread, of that I am sure.
* If he (or she) could keep the mouth shut at those angry moments, and avoid spilling out his/her own rants, the melting season thread would be more lively. Thank you.
* Indeed, Neven has done a great job in keeping off topic stuff off the main threads. And A-Team, with that attitude, is doing some job in keeping on-topic people off the discussions as well.

Alexander555

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2018, 06:30:30 PM »
Maybe for A-team, the best ways is to post as much as possible himself. Not just as much as possible, but about the  things he sees as the most importand. Or things that happen at some location at the moment we are talking about it. And most of that will be outside the pole. But still his reaction was a little rude. Because the pic shows exactly what climate change is doing. If you put all the years next to eachother. They show how winters are getting hotter and hotter at "the last frontier". And i can imagine that if he saw these pics a thousand times, it can get a little borring. But there are always new people. And to be honestly, i'm looking forward to the new data. So gerontocrat , keep posting.

SteveMDFP

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #23 on: May 26, 2018, 06:41:44 PM »
Oren:
* Gerontocrat should not take A-Team's tone well, nobody should, especially when Gerontocrat is not littering the main thread by any means.
* A-Team's posts are above, out of reach in quality and in scientific understanding than any other contributor, including the likes of Wipneus and Neven, to mention two names.
* But this superb level coupled with that nasty aggressiveness has forced some valid contributors out of this thread, of that I am sure.
* If he (or she) could keep the mouth shut at those angry moments, and avoid spilling out his/her own rants, the melting season thread would be more lively. Thank you.
* Indeed, Neven has done a great job in keeping off topic stuff off the main threads. And A-Team, with that attitude, is doing some job in keeping on-topic people off the discussions as well.

I'm mystified and a tad disturbed about A-Team being singled out here.  I think on rare occasions he makes clear that he doesn't "suffer fools gladly."  Rare.  Meanwhile, he posts some of the most awe-inspiring work on this forum.  Personally, I think he deserves a "most valuable player" award.  That's just me.

Certainly the political threads have engendered a significant amount of negativity.  Simple solution, Neven can close them.

Steve

gerontocrat

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2018, 06:43:57 PM »
Don't worry about A-team losing his rag about DMI North of 80. Much more important was his complaint about the "unread posts" on the home page being overwhelmed by the political stuff - it is a real turn-off.

I have made a suggestion on - wait for it - the suggestion thread - on a way of dealing with it that might satisfy the various groups of customers on this website - a very valuable website that must not be lost given the times we are in.

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,28.msg156018.html#msg156018

I wait in hope for Neven's reaction.
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oren

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2018, 07:53:26 PM »
Just to clarify, I support A-Team's comment about the off-topic negativity stuff, meaning politics and all that crap (did the Russians poison someone in London, etc.) that has nothing to do with climate. Consequences, policy, renewables, all that is very relevant. Day-to-day politics and general news though very interesting to some have no relation to climate and are a source of distraction and animosity.
The DMI comment is a side issue in my view, I do look at it myself every few days, I know its severe limitations but it still gives me some (wrong?) insights. I do wish there was such a chart with data going back 40 years but separately for each of the arctic seas and with correct averaging over area, that could give much better insights.
As others have said, A-Team is in a top league, I can see what he's getting at though he does scare me too sometimes... but I'd rather be challenged by superior science. I sure do hope gerontocrat continues posting all his wonderful stuff without taking such comments personally.
And gerontocrat's suggestion is great, I recommend to support it in the suggestions thread.

Susan Anderson

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2018, 07:58:12 PM »
I would suggest avoiding demonizing, personally attacking, or attempting to isolate and/or get rid of people with whom you disagree.

In the interest of making progress in the real world (aka surviving into the future), absolutism (of the "superior" 1%) doesn't stand a chance.

I don't agree with all of these (e.g., journaling not essential), but the general idea is helpful. Do you want to be right or do you want to succeed?

Quote
Successful people have a sense of gratitude, compliment others, forgive others, give other people credit for their victories, talk about ideas, read everyday, accept responsibility for their failures, keep a journal, want others to succeed, share information and data, keep a to-be list, set goals and develop life plans, exude joy, embrace change, keep a to-do list, learn continuously, and operate from a transformational perspective.

Unsuccessful people criticize, have a sense of entitlement, hold a grudge, take all the credit, blame others for their failures, watch TV every day, don’t keep a journal, think they know it all, fear change, fly by the seat of their pants, operate from a transactional perspective, talk about people, secretly hope others fail, hoard information and data, don’t know what they want to be, never set goals, and exude anger. And they don’t read nearly enough.

http://infographicaday.com/maryellen-tribby-the-success-indicator/

sidd

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2018, 08:04:26 AM »
This is a reply to

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1937.msg168404.html#msg168404

I suggest that if some feel the forum is too loosely moderated, they avail themselves of the "Ignore" setting.

If you want tight moderation. do it yourself. eh ?

sidd

Rob Dekker

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2018, 08:34:39 AM »
This is a reply to

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1937.msg168404.html#msg168404

I suggest that if some feel the forum is too loosely moderated, they avail themselves of the "Ignore" setting.

If you want tight moderation. do it yourself. eh ?

sidd

Sure, one can always ignore a post or a poster.
But that does not solve the problem of abuse and foul posts on this forum.

Specifically from your reference, there is a commenter who gets away with name-calling ("silly man" and "shit Einstein" etc), threats ("I'm going to strangle that cat."), insults ("That wins my Stupid Question of the Week Award.") intimidations ("I know where you live") and ad hominems (plenty) as he pleases.

Yet no moderator intervenes, since we don't have any solid guidelines on this forum.

When Steve objected to an obvious ad hominem, he was criticized as launching an ad hominem himself. That's not right, folks. We need to improvement here.

Metabunk has a good set of Posting Guidelines, some of which they enforce, others are just for participants to read. I summarized them here :

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2369.msg

Specifically the "triangle of truth" is helpful in creating a forum that is less hostile, and more constructive than what we have now :



Can we consider such a set of Posting Guidelines for our forum, where only some rules (the "politeness" rules) would need to be enforced ?
« Last Edit: August 20, 2018, 09:03:32 AM by Rob Dekker »
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sidd

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #29 on: August 20, 2018, 09:02:29 AM »
Wait, what ?

"But that does not solve the problem of abuse and foul posts on this forum."

Sure it does. For you, and whatever you consider abuse and foul posts. If others share your view, they can ignore the same posts as you do. Or, of course, they might differ in their ignore lists ... or they might learn to use the page down key ... or their mouse scroll wheel.

Or were you proposing to protect the naive innocence of other posters as well with blanket censorship ? As Goldwyn said, "Include me out." 

As Baudrillard has pointed out, one creates Disneyland by exclusion of all viewpoints from outside Disneyland. Have at it, filter your own media feed. Don't we all ?

Neven runs this forum. I will go along with his moderation until i disagree. In the meantime, i do wish more would use the ignore setting. I do hope the Master can make it easier to use, like having an ignore button on each post, or by each username.

sidd


« Last Edit: August 20, 2018, 09:16:13 AM by sidd »

Rob Dekker

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #30 on: August 20, 2018, 09:30:59 AM »
The 'ignore' setting is like that ostrich sticking his head in the sand.
It's not solving the issue.
In fact, it would create a forum where abuse and insults are dominating.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2018, 09:42:12 AM by Rob Dekker »
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Andre Koelewijn

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #31 on: August 20, 2018, 09:41:36 AM »
An idea from a long-time lurker:
Try another way of ignoring: do not reply whatsoever on specific posters.
In real life this works too, and it tends to be more effective in the long run than repeated fights.

Rob Dekker

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #32 on: August 20, 2018, 09:47:02 AM »
An idea from a long-time lurker:
Try another way of ignoring: do not reply whatsoever on specific posters.
In real life this works too, and it tends to be more effective in the long run than repeated fights.

There is already a (unmoderated) forum where you can choose to ignore specific posters.
It's called the NewsGroups or NewsNet or Usenet.

Is that what we want our ASIF to look like ?

I thought we could be better than that.
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Andre Koelewijn

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #33 on: August 20, 2018, 10:21:47 AM »
Yes Rob, and this forum IS doing better than that.

By its limitation to topics related to Arctic Sea Ice (in a rather broad sense, supplemented with 'The Rest') AND by (in general) respectfully replying on each other's posts. But sometimes this gets out of hand and the same (type of) issue is quickly getting out of hand.
Yet, everyone can see that coming. Usually, it is the case if more than a third of the overview of 'Recent Posts' on the homepage refers to the same thread (the main exception being Wipneus' invaluable posts of the Piomas update and the replies to that). Once that happens, take a break. If your reply is still valuable after a night's sleep, then post it. The trolls and other attention-seeking -only posters cannot stand that lack of attention and they'll wither.

SteveMDFP

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2018, 11:40:12 AM »


I have also apologized when appropriate. Steve has not. And neither have you ever done so when you have been wrong about me and out of order and offensive.

I wanted to argue this assertion, but you're right.  I did acknowledge the error in publicly calling for your banning, but that's not an apology.  So, I do apologize.

I don't want anyone banned for being who they are.  But this is an important corner of the internet, and if participants don't exercise some discipline in expressing their feelings, it can all turn into useless non-stop flame wars.

Most of us have, from time to time, descended into an ad hominem.  Most acknowledge the error when pointed out.  An occasional person seems to just refuse to alter behavior.  Those folks eventually get banned.

Neven does take a very minimalist approach to moderation, to my occasional frustration.  But hey, it's his forum.  This leaves for us the role of gently pointing out non-constructive forum behavior.

All in all, the system has worked surprisingly well.

Martin Gisser

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2018, 01:46:17 PM »
... and the bickering goes on and on and on. ???

Just for the record, here's what started it all:

Ukraine Neonazis, Racist, Anti-Semetic, Xneophobic Fascist thugs calling for an end to the Muscovite Jewish Mafia with their leader/s meeting with their supporters McCain and Nuland

C'mon Lurk, this is a piece of Russian Propaganda from 2014 right after Russia annexed Crimea.
Even then, none of the arguments held.

Why are you reviving such zombie pieces from the dead ?
I suspect (s)he's a professional troll. Should be ignored.

Get stuffed Martin!  >:(

If you want to play childish ad hominem games I'm happy to beat you all over the shop for a month of Sundays. I suggest you withdraw your dumb comment!
Nope, it is my honest impression of your work here. Did I hit a nerve? (Back to ignoring your stuff.)

...and boy did I hit a nerve!
(Back to ignoring the bickering.)

P.S.: I couldn't find that famous "ignore" feature. Works just for PMs. (Maybe someone has a screenshot for me stupid.) So, I simply don't read 95% of the stuff I want to ignore.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2018, 01:55:18 PM by Martin Gisser »
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gerontocrat

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2018, 02:34:13 PM »
"Not a lot of Decorum in the Forum"

Julius Caesar, on the Ides of March (March 15), 44 BC
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"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2018, 02:36:25 PM »
Or was it....

"Infamy, infamy, they've all got it in for me".

Julius Caesar, on the Ides of March (March 15), 44 BC
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
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sidd

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #38 on: August 20, 2018, 09:23:26 PM »
Re: Usenet

I still do Usenet. As do a lot of oldtimers.

As I have stated b4, I have often toyed with the idea of gatewaying this forum (or the parts that i am interested in, nyhoo) into my Usenet news server, mainly because i can then use usenet moderation/killfile/expiry ideas to generate a cleaned up feed. I already do a similar thing for realclimate.

Those who do not remember Usenet are doomed to reinvent it ... badly. Newsreaders like trn have very sophisticated killfiles, you can ignore by thread, by user, and by replies to user ...

Another thing is to hack your newsreader to suck from this forum, skipping the gateway to newsserver step. For technical reasons this is slitely more difficult and not as pretty a solution, but i have done so. Nevertheless, i will probably implement the gateway step in my copious (ha!) spare time.

The problem with global moderation is that everybody differs in their ignore lists. One global ignore list for all users  does not fit.

Re: Ignore button: look at this post under the thread called "killfiles" in the thread group called "the forum"

As you will see, i didnt find it for a while either

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,444.msg49157.html#msg49157

sidd

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2018, 09:41:29 PM »
In large, and in sum, this is a conflict of viewpoints.

I would rather make up my own mind on who to read and who to ignore. I certainly do not want to prevent anyone posting.

Others, it seems, want to dictate what may be said at all.

In short, I want to creat my own Disneyland from all available choices, while others want to impose their own version of Disneyland on all the members of this forum.

Fuck that noise.

sidd

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2018, 10:35:15 PM »
Re: Ignore button: look at this post under the thread called "killfiles" in the thread group called "the forum"

As you will see, i didnt find it for a while either

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,444.msg49157.html#msg49157

sidd
Not working! Blocks PMs perhaps, but I still see copious amounts of text from those 2 on my list.
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magnamentis

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2018, 10:54:34 PM »
Re: Ignore button: look at this post under the thread called "killfiles" in the thread group called "the forum"

As you will see, i didnt find it for a while either

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,444.msg49157.html#msg49157

sidd
Not working! Blocks PMs perhaps, but I still see copious amounts of text from those 2 on my list.

isn't what you're seeng the quoted text, because that's something i mentioned recently.

normally the feature works great and improves my peace of mind as well as it's reducing the number of times i fall into the trap of "anger" LOL but quite often, when others reply and quote the ignored user, one can of course read it but then there has been replies and a can read the replies first to see whether it's only me or what i would have said has been said, often in a better and more kind way than i would have ;)
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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2018, 11:26:37 PM »

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #43 on: August 22, 2018, 12:42:21 PM »
Sometimes I think I shouldn't have created subsegments on this Forum where the social stuff can be discussed, economics, politics, and so on. Remember, I created the ASIF to divert all the noise from the ASIB. I feel a bit like Dr Frankenstein now.  ;)

Moderating the Arctic sea ice part of the forum is relatively easy, because it's about science. I know that people are pushing the analogy with the political stuff, and that what intelligence agencies tell us is the equivalent of science, but I still find it much harder to moderate. Also because I like to think I'm a bit of a radical who is allergic to mainstream mass opinions.

I'd rather moderate as little as possible in the political threads. I actually think it's healthy and good to be confronted with opposite opinions (as long as people are honest, of course). There's a chance it makes your own thinking stronger, more rooted, which is then also reflected in your actions.

The way things are going now, isn't all that bad, I think. And in the end, it's still all about the Arctic sea ice anyway.
Compare, compare, compare

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #44 on: August 22, 2018, 02:39:31 PM »
There are really three parts of the ASIF, in my very humble opinion. 

There's the sea ice part, which is pretty strictly moderated through a combination of individual self-control, collective social opprobrium, and occasional intervention by the moderators (thank you!)

There are the social/political topics.  Pretty acrimonious.  I don't go there.

Those are the first two parts, and at times they seem like completely distinct communities.  There's a surprising degree of non-overlap in participants between the two.

But ... there's a third part of the ASIF that in some ways is the most problematic.  It's the "other" science threads, not sea-ice-specific but also not (in theory) political.  The problem there is that there's a widespread pattern of commenters who want to talk about science but don't really think like a scientist and aren't really willing to tolerate the necessary open-mindedness.  Those threads tend to become vehicles for amplifying confirmation bias.  At times those supposedly science-centric threads can remind me uncomfortably of WattsUpWithThat.  People who actually have a science-centric attitude can get driven off. 

I'm not complaining, and I'm definitely not asking for anything different to be done.  The situation is what it is, and there's probably no good solution.   :-\ 

magnamentis

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #45 on: August 22, 2018, 05:02:39 PM »
There are really three parts of the ASIF, in my very humble opinion. 

There's the sea ice part, which is pretty strictly moderated through a combination of individual self-control, collective social opprobrium, and occasional intervention by the moderators (thank you!)

There are the social/political topics.  Pretty acrimonious.  I don't go there.

Those are the first two parts, and at times they seem like completely distinct communities.  There's a surprising degree of non-overlap in participants between the two.

perhaps a short example to illustrate:

if a scientist talks to a farmer and they disagree and the scientist tells the farmer, what are you telling me, you're just a farmer (not a scientist) that guy just disqualified himself entirely and this kind of attitude (widely spread) is part of the problem, part of the reason why mankind and politicians were not able (willing) to fight global warming and other major problems when it was time.

global warming has already been a topic when i was in the firth school class and that's about 60 years ago, enough time to learn, understand and act upon if i may say so.
But ... there's a third part of the ASIF that in some ways is the most problematic.  It's the "other" science threads, not sea-ice-specific but also not (in theory) political.  The problem there is that there's a widespread pattern of commenters who want to talk about science but don't really think like a scientist and aren't really willing to tolerate the necessary open-mindedness.  Those threads tend to become vehicles for amplifying confirmation bias.  At times those supposedly science-centric threads can remind me uncomfortably of WattsUpWithThat.  People who actually have a science-centric attitude can get driven off. 

I'm not complaining, and I'm definitely not asking for anything different to be done.  The situation is what it is, and there's probably no good solution.   :-\

while i like your analyses, perhaps there is something about terms that made me think.

one one hand you miss scientific thinking in section 3 and one sentence later you mention missing open mindedness.

IMO and only IMO many if not most scientist are narrow-minded, depend on funding with all it's impact, are boxing themselves up into positions and the most reputed are not always the most skilled and not always make themselves a name with their own work but harvest the work of others because of their status etc.

what i'm saying is that scientific is not necessarily the only valid criteria when it comes to complex and field overlapping problems like global warming is one for sure.

even a key difference between a scientist and a non-scientist, which is  mostly education, academics agains non-academics so to say, is OLD knowledge and not always fit to solve actual problems of various kinds.

this does not mean that anything is wrong with science as such, on the contrary, but to say that what's scientific is good and everything else is not, and that in a condescending manner, is not target-leading, not helpful to solve problems that should be understood and tackled by about 7 billion earthlings and not only a select and elite group.

to avoid misunderstandings, i'm considered an academic myself, hence don't think i'm fighting an up-hill battle. i just share thoughts and people my do with it whatever they feel fit, that includes to refuse them.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 05:09:35 PM by magnamentis »
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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #46 on: August 27, 2018, 06:22:42 PM »
I just remind people here that this is a global forum, and I guess most do not hang out here 24/7, so please consider giving at least a day for responses on any subject of contention. Of course it can be said it's your right to be upset for not getting an immediate answer, but this sort of upset is futile in this sort of place where even active contributors may take f.e. 3 day leaves without notice.
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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #47 on: August 27, 2018, 10:50:30 PM »


this does not mean that anything is wrong with science as such, on the contrary, but to say that what's scientific is good and everything else is not, and that in a condescending manner, is not target-leading, not helpful to solve problems that should be understood and tackled by about 7 billion earthlings and not only a select and elite group.

to avoid misunderstandings, i'm considered an academic myself, hence don't think i'm fighting an up-hill battle. i just share thoughts and people my do with it whatever they feel fit, that includes to refuse them.

As a scientist, I have found that many academics are condescending. In fact, I found your comment above condescending and I think that you missed Ned's point entirely. Oh, well.

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #48 on: August 28, 2018, 08:44:05 PM »
As a scientist, I have found that many academics are condescending. In fact, I found your comment above condescending and I think that you missed Ned's point entirely. Oh, well.

FishOutofWater,

As I strongly suspect that Ned W's Reply #48, was significantly motivated by his and my exchange in the 'Comparison: forcings from CO₂, CH4, N20' thread in the Science folder; I believe that it is appropriate for me to offer my following thoughts on the topic of information management on the ASIF w.r.t. 'wicked problems' (as the non-wicked problems are not a source of problem with decorum):

1. Per Wikipedia: "A wicked problem is a problem that is difficult or impossible to solve because of incomplete, contradictory, and changing requirements that are often difficult to recognize. The use of the term "wicked" here has come to denote resistance to resolution, rather than evil."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicked_problem

Discussing wick problems like climate change on the ASIF requires a lot scientific input; & I concur with Ned W that much of this scientific input is poorly understood by posters in the forum & I also concur that some of my posts have had mixed units and compared apples to oranges. 

That said:

a) At any given time there are a number of trolls on the forum looking to weaken any argument to take early & effective action on climate change, and

b) I honestly believe that consensus climate change scientists typically 'err on the side of least drama', which also tends to inhibit early and effective action on climate change.

2. Consensus climate scientists tend to over rely on direct logic; which is in sufficient to address all of the uncertainties associated with climate change; which results in delayed action on climate change.  Such consensus climate scientists typically imply that extensive use of indirect logic relies too much on the quality of the priori and also accepts that the priori contains errors which need to be updated to create improved posteriors.  Typically, consensus science emphasizes the use of direct logic and then provides footnotes and 'fine print' caveats to cover the incomplete nature of their projections due to the complexity of climate change.

3. These two points, cited above, leads to a lot of gamesmanship associated with uncertainties in the posts on the forum, with most posters (& most of the public) avoiding responsibility for their 'skin in the game' for taking early and effective action on climate change.  This also results in a very large number of passive aggressive posts, than have made me uncomfortable at least a thousand time (literally) in exchanges of posts.

4.  Finally, I note that science is one of the most competitive disciplines on the planet, so a little 'heat in the kitchen' should not drive someone with real 'skin in the game' away from posting their true beliefs.  That said, if someone feels that their time is better spent elsewhere in order to more effectively address climate change, then reducing, or minimizing, their posts in the ASIF makes sense to me.

Very best,
ASLR
« Last Edit: August 28, 2018, 08:56:31 PM by AbruptSLR »
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magnamentis

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Re: Forum Decorum
« Reply #49 on: August 29, 2018, 12:08:26 AM »
As a scientist, I have found that many academics are condescending. In fact, I found your comment above condescending and I think that you missed Ned's point entirely. Oh, well.

for everyone who doesn't know/understand something, the one who knows sounds condescending if he sounds annoyed about false claims and other things. so what you take for condescending is a mix of:

- impatience
- annoyance
- lack of skills to express better
- lack of language skills
- getting tired of the sheer mass of group dynamic based bias and ego/interest-based bias

so all the above are flaws, weaknesses, defects or any term of choice, true that, but other than most
i have no problems to admit that i do mistakes almost permanently which again is everything but not condescending.

also i observed that those who understand a lot or more than most rarely tell others to be righteous, it's mostly the one who has no clue who calls others righteous or condescending or arrogant. it's like the small dog usually barks up to the big dog until he's bitten while the big dod simply stands their stoic and wondering what all this is about, a bit annoyed perhaps but quite cool.

it's one example to verify that we humans are nothing but another kind of animals while some have more and others less control over their "instincts" or "egos"

what i was trying to say was the opposite of condescending, i was voting for open discussions, not based on renown names and/or academic titles or other titles or size of bank account or the looks or any other kind of fame or renown attributes. open discussions are discussions where it does not matter who speaks and to whom one speaks.

mostly the problems start when the less knowledgable starts to speak with inferior feelings which mostly goes hand in hand with personal attacks or some undertones.

now that's when the other guy, even when he was willing to be neutral, starts to feel treated unjust and sooner or later tries to defend himself and then the case is lost.

this is why i do such exchanges in 3 phases:

1.) free and open, no restrictions, no shyness and exclusively based on facts, opinion and experience

2. trying to explain

3. brake up contact and focus on opponents, friends and entities who are willing to be open minded and deserver the effort

so this post was trying to explain which means it's the last on the matter.

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