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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2750 on: June 27, 2019, 04:41:48 PM »
Quote
<Any big birthday plans? Or just relaxing w/ family? (Perhaps heading out to TX for little work, more vacation??)
Elon Musk 6/25/19, 9:13 PM: Working on Tesla global logistics
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1143688793901424640
<You need time off too, don’t you? (Yesss... even you) ;)
EM:  :(
<< How about all of us on Twitter throw you a party online?!?
EM:  Ok, thanks
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2751 on: June 29, 2019, 06:03:00 PM »
Quote
Quote
Matt A. (@TMSP85) 6/28/19, 9:08 PM
I think @elonmusk figured out logistics. I was at the superchargers & met a couple with 2 new SR+ M3’s. They sold BMW 135 & SUV, ordered 2 Tesla’s & they were delivered to their door in 1 week...saved 10k & became all electronic family.
This is Canada.
https://twitter.com/tmsp85/status/1144774548627136512
Quote
ValueAnalyst (@ValueAnalyst1) 6/28/19, 9:27 PM
Agreed. Noticed a quickening of order to delivery in recent weeks, which is quite amazing given that Standard Plus is being delivered in so many countries.
https://twitter.com/valueanalyst1/status/1144779501165060097
——
Netherlands
Quote
Quote
Martin Grefte (@martingrefte) 6/28/19, 4:31 PM
Word on the Dutch Tesla forum is that today in Tilburg 350(!) Model 3 were delivered. And tomorrow they will do the same number.
So in 2 days 700 deliveries from one location in Holland.
https://twitter.com/martingrefte/status/1144704838208512001
Quote
Alp Soycengiz (@Alpsoy66) 6/29/19, 6:20 AM
Confirmed ! $tsla delivered 390 cars in the Netherlands yesterday alone and passed 3000 deliveries.this weekend, They r delivering to homes and they ll deliver in full shifts in high 100s. With close to 4000 deliveries, Tesla will sell 50% more cars in Q2 than in Q1 in Holland
https://twitter.com/alpsoy66/status/1144913449593556992
Netherlands chart below.

Quote
Elon's World (@ElonsWorld) 6/25/19, 10:59 PM
Tesla registrations ramping up in Norway+Netherlands+Spain at the end of this quarter.
https://twitter.com/elonsworld/status/1143715314699571201
The chart (second below) includes hybrids!
Source:  eu-evs.com

——
Tesla (TSLA) ‘on track’ to set record deliveries in Q2, says Elon Musk in leaked email
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-record-q2-deliveries-leaked-elon-musk-email/

——-
Why Do The NYTimes & Other Large Media Outlets Get Tesla & EVs So Wrong?
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/06/27/why-do-the-nytimes-other-large-media-outlets-get-tesla-evs-so-wrong/
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Tor Bejnar

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2752 on: June 29, 2019, 06:54:37 PM »
Quote
Why Do The NYTimes & Other Large Media Outlets Get Tesla & EVs So Wrong?
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/06/27/why-do-the-nytimes-other-large-media-outlets-get-tesla-evs-so-wrong/
Really interesting article:
  • Bad information - e.g., journalists getting info from people who are threatend by Tesla
  • Narrative hole - e.g., Tesla not releasing many press reports
  • Anti–rich people bias - e.g., Elon Musk is rich
  • Lack of depth on Tesla & the industry - e.g., Tesla is car & tech & solar, a new type of company
  • Backlash to criticism - e.g., Elon Musk lashed out and got burned in return last year
  • Anti–Silicon Valley bias
  • Misguided tendency to tear everything down
  • Fundamental lack of context - e.g., gotcha moments rather than explaining context of events
  • The editorial process - e.g., drive for clickbait
  • Confirmation bias - e.g., if you thought it was bad at first, you probably think it is still bad
What to do about all this?
Quote
We need to pepper newspapers and TV news with a more complete, accurate narrative regarding cleantech.
Quote
start a letter-writing campaign and [write] letters (emails) to local newspapers and larger nationwide newspapers in order to better communicate the story of cleantech — solar energy, wind energy, electric cars, and energy storage.
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2753 on: June 29, 2019, 07:40:34 PM »
Quote
Why Do The NYTimes & Other Large Media Outlets Get Tesla & EVs So Wrong?

Tesla does not spend money advertising.  While the bad press may not be retaliatory, I suspect editors might hesitate to be as critical of one of their income sources. They can publish all anti-Tesla the clickbait they like without worrying about losing an account.




Tor Bejnar

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2754 on: June 29, 2019, 08:49:12 PM »
Bob,
Yup!  The article's author added this note at the end:
Quote
Note: Despite my beliefs, there has been some scientific research concluding that advertising does influence coverage of the advertising companies.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2755 on: July 01, 2019, 01:27:15 PM »
”For many years, the formula has been, develop a new engine that is a little cleaner, a little more powerful, and a little more efficient than our last-generation powertrain, and put it in a car or SUV that has new styling and call it ‘All New.’ That has worked well for 40 years, but when compared to a Tesla that is dramatically more powerful, 4 times as efficient, and safer than their ‘All New’ cars and SUVs, they will have great difficulty in selling the vehicles without giving huge incentives that cause them to lose money on every vehicle.”

Why Today’s Leading Automakers Should Fear Tesla
Paul Fosse
Quote
The purpose of this article is to challenge the narrative that is commonly heard on mainstream news sites that Tesla has sold a few cars to a few people who just care about the climate, but that Tesla doesn’t know what it is doing. The second part of that is often that Tesla’s leader, Elon Musk, is a great fraud, someone who can get his faithful excited but never delivers on his promises.
...
Tesla’s Bold Claims
Tesla has made bold claims about every vehicle it has announced — things like cost, efficiency, volume. Those bold claims were derided as impossible to meet by its competitors. In every case, Tesla delivered on its claims, just not always on time. The result is that it has consistently taken a top spot in sales in the markets in which it’s entered and left competitors to fight for the scraps.

Zach’s recent article on Elon’s production estimate made in 2014 regarding 2020 was shocking to me. In the year-ending 2013 10K, Tesla had been manufacturing the Model S for 18 months and had delivered almost 57,000 vehicles. Elon made a very bold claim that he was comfortable that Tesla would “be able to achieve at least a half a million cars a year by 2020.” Tesla’s current guidance for 2019 is that it will deliver 360,000 to 400,000 cars. In 2020, it will have greatly increased production capacity, enabled by the Gigafactory 3 in China. ...
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/06/30/why-todays-leading-automakers-should-fear-tesla/

——-
Quote
Tristan Arkesteijn (@TArkesteijn) 6/30/19, 1:39 PM
Big announcement from $TSLAQ:
Demand cliff now officially rescheduled to Q3.
Bankwupcy now moved to Q4.
https://twitter.com/tarkesteijn/status/1145386417129963521
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2756 on: July 01, 2019, 06:09:59 PM »
Quote
Vincent (@vincent13031925)6/30/19, 3:21 PM
Tesla Shanghai Gigafactory GF3 China
June 30th 2019 update

Via: 烏瓦 Channel (YouTube)
Full vid:  youtu.be/-1dbbMjno6A

$TSLA #Tesla #China #TeslaChina #GigaFactory pic.twitter.com/PremKCWj0f 
https://twitter.com/vincent13031925/status/1145411939566100480
Screen caps below.

Full vid here:  https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=-1dbbMjno6A
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b_lumenkraft

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2757 on: July 01, 2019, 06:21:48 PM »
That's all Potemkin villages! No car will ever leave this GF!

What you see and what you hear is not what's happening.

;)

Bob Wallace

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2758 on: July 02, 2019, 07:11:42 AM »
One of the authors at Cleantechnica just reported on his first experience recharging at one of Tesla's new 250 kW Supercharges.  It took 15 minutes to add 178 miles to the batteries. 

Start the day with full batteries in the lowest range Tesla 3 (220 miles), drive 200 miles, stop 15 minutes to charge, drive 178,miles, charge and drive.  That's about a 550 mile driving day with two pee stops.  The time spent charging on a long distance trip objection to EVs is fading away.

There are some 350 kW chargers being installed by companies but so far no EVs that can accept that rapid a charge.  Hopefully a company will up the game soon and push toward the 5 minute 80% charge goal.

oren

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2759 on: July 02, 2019, 07:55:39 AM »
I believe this (amazing) charging rate applies to the Long-range Model 3, and would be somewhat lower for the Short-range model. While top charging speed would be the same, tapering off would begin earlier as the battery capacity is nearly filled up.

NeilT

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2760 on: July 02, 2019, 10:06:36 AM »
Some time ago, on another thread, I posted the data on charging times for the Panasonic cells.  45 minutes to 90%, 1 hour 30 to 100%.  The faster the charge, the faster the tapering. We see this with mobile phones today, they can only accept around 40%, from empty, before tapering begins.  This is why mobile phones all give time to 50% for fast charge.

To kill range anxiety, EV's will need double the range they have today and that will require new technology. Either that or new technology which does not taper the charge.

On top of that, fast charging requires that you deep discharge the pack to get the faster charge. The deeper you discharge the pack, the more life you remove at every charge.

There is no fast and simple fix for this. 350kw superchargers will do nothing when the battery charge circuit is pulling less than 100.
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b_lumenkraft

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2761 on: July 02, 2019, 10:16:51 AM »
To kill range anxiety you need to kill all the hyperbole around range anxiety.

The more people own an EV telling people around them how much of a non-topic this is the less chatter about this.

b_lumenkraft

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2762 on: July 02, 2019, 10:19:48 AM »
On top of that, fast charging requires that you deep discharge the pack to get the faster charge

Wait, what?

I've seen a lot of charging graphs but no car i've seen has ever done that.

oren

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2763 on: July 02, 2019, 10:23:23 AM »
IMHO with the current Model 3 LR specs, with 325 miles of actual (EPA, not WLTP) range and the ability to charge ~180 miles in 15 minutes, there is no range anxiety anymore. There will always be some travel scenario that will exceed this somehow, but for 99% of travel this should be good enough.


KiwiGriff

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2764 on: July 02, 2019, 11:28:30 AM »
For the rest of the world thats 560km NEDC.

I had the misfortune to drive 800 miles in a day last weekend .
I have badly bruised thighs from sitting up for so long and hope I will never have to do such a trip ever again.
A model 3 LR it would have made no real difference to my travel time as you need to eat , excrete and walk around to restore circulation for about the same time as you would need to charge. Even down here in the wilds of the pacific Tesla already has charges at suitable spacing to make such a trip possible for the masochists.

Electric cars are coming at an accelerating rate with Tesla leading the charge up the S curve. No amount of nay saying and pleas to the edge cases  is going to halt the change.
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NeilT

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2765 on: July 02, 2019, 11:45:29 AM »
Wait, what?

I've seen a lot of charging graphs but no car i've seen has ever done that.

It is a fact of the cells, not the pack as such.  The cells will only accept a high charge rate when deeply discharged.

To get a very high charge rate with cells over 50%, yo need more cells.  More cells == more range.
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NeilT

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2766 on: July 02, 2019, 11:53:15 AM »
IMHO with the current Model 3 LR specs, with 325 miles of actual (EPA, not WLTP) range and the ability to charge ~180 miles in 15 minutes, there is no range anxiety anymore. There will always be some travel scenario that will exceed this somehow, but for 99% of travel this should be good enough.

I don't disagree Oren, but this will only do for 100% of the needs of 80% of the people.  The problem is that the 20% will create the anxiety and the bears will use it to make money.

The only way to kill it is to have a capacity which is equivalent of FF in most ways and that includes range. Otherwise the 20% case will drive the agenda.

Even for those who only require something with more range twice a year, this is going to be a blocker.  Because if they are going to have to hang onto a fossil burner, then they are going to have to start thinking different ways about travel.

Change is not easy and most people don't take well to it.

Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

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b_lumenkraft

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2767 on: July 02, 2019, 11:56:06 AM »
I don't think this applies to Li-ion cells, but let's assume you are right. There is a BMS managing this stuff.

The fact is, if you plug it in with 0% it will have a charging curve, ramping up slowly, charge at high speed for some time and will temper down towards the end (depending on factors like battery temperature for example).

So if you do a long trip, you would not charge from 0 to 100%. You would arrive at the next SC with 10% and stop charging at 70%. That way you have max charging speed. You don't have to go through the ramping up/tempering down phase because you can avoid the 0-10 and 70-100 per cent phase.

crandles

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2768 on: July 02, 2019, 02:55:06 PM »
Production and delivery numbers likely today or tomorrow.

So bring together summary of previous quarters for comparison:

Production
Qtr_____Model 3__S/X___Total
Q2 2018 28,578 24,761 53,339
Q3 2018 53,239 26,903 80,142 
Q4 2018 61,394 25,161 86,555
Q1 2019 62,950 14,150 77,100
Q2 2019 72,531 14,517 87,048

Deliveries
Qtr_____Model 3__S/X___Total
Q2 2018 18,440 22,300 40,740
Q3 2018 55,840 27,660 83,500
Q4 2018 63,150 27,550 90,700
Q1 2019 50,900 12,100 63,000
Q2 2019 77,550 17,650 95,200

Edit: Modified to add Q2 2019

In transit vehicles will not be reported in future
Total EVs in transit end of Q1            10,600
Total EVs in transit end of Q4            2,907
In transit increase Q4 to Q1            7,693
Total EVs in transit end of Q2 were over 7400

So I was wrong the number came down. So it appears the one off delays on first delivering to new ports must have been quite significant for the vehicles in transit to have reduced by 3000.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2019, 12:53:46 AM by crandles »

Bob Wallace

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2769 on: July 02, 2019, 07:07:37 PM »
Some data on charging a Tesla 3 Long Range.  The owner pulled into the 250 kW Supercharger with 10 miles of range left.  2%.  When charging started the car's range gained 6 miles of range in the first minute.  Those are the first two data points in the table below. 


2% – 10 miles – 0 mins (126 kW)
5% – 16 miles – 1 min (250 kW)
20% – 62 miles – 4 mins (250 kW)
21% – 65 miles – 4.5 mins (Taper from peak starts – 248 kW)
30% – 92 miles – 6 mins (218 kW)
40% – 123 miles – 8.5 mins (179 kW)
50% – 153 miles – 11 mins (142 kW)
60% – 184 miles – 14.5 mins (108 kW)
70% – 213 miles – 19 mins (87 kW)
80% – 245 miles – 24.5 mins (56 kW)
90% – 275 miles – 34 mins (36 kW)

A fully charged T3LR has a 310 mile range.  If you were going to be close enough to a 250 kW Supercharger (you car should tell  you) then you could leave home with a 310 mile charge, drive 300 miles, stop for 34 minutes, and then drive another 265 miles for a 565 mile drive day.

Or you could maximize high charge rates and drive 300 miles, charge 15 minutes, drive 175 miles, charge 15 minutes, drive 175 miles and rack up a 650 mile day.

This claim -

Quote
I don't disagree Oren, but this will only do for 100% of the needs of 80% of the people.

Neil, would you please describe the needs of those 20% that wouldn't find this good enough?  I can imagine there is someone who fills their tank the day before, packs a lunch, takes a bottle to pee in, drives something like a Kia Optima Hybrid with a 729 mile range, and goes 700 miles non-stop.  But 20% of all drivers do this sort of extreme traveling?

Bob Wallace

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2770 on: July 02, 2019, 07:15:53 PM »
For the rest of the world thats 560km NEDC.

I had the misfortune to drive 800 miles in a day last weekend .
I have badly bruised thighs from sitting up for so long and hope I will never have to do such a trip ever again.
A model 3 LR it would have made no real difference to my travel time as you need to eat , excrete and walk around to restore circulation for about the same time as you would need to charge. Even down here in the wilds of the pacific Tesla already has charges at suitable spacing to make such a trip possible for the masochists.

Electric cars are coming at an accelerating rate with Tesla leading the charge up the S curve. No amount of nay saying and pleas to the edge cases  is going to halt the change.

You must have a cast iron butt.  I did a 700 mile drive day a couple years back and it was a total killer. 

I suspect had either of us been driving a Tesla with only it's non-self driving Autopilot features the story would have been different.  If, for long stretches, you didn't have to steer or adjust your speed as speed limits and traffic required then you'd have a lot more freedom of movement when sitting behind the wheel.  You could move around, even do the sort of 'in seat' exercises that some airlines suggest.

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2771 on: July 02, 2019, 09:41:01 PM »
I've driven solo over 900 miles (1450 km) in one day several times (once well over 1,000 miles - 1610 km - with two blow-outs, my having replaced the first flat with a new-to-me tire before the second - and this on a Sunday!) in Subaru, Honda Civic and two different Prii.   Of course I got tired, but I 'danced sitting down' to the radio music of my choice; cruse control freed my feet (while my hands stayed on the wheel). I think such long-distance travel is fairly common for some folks in the United States.

 In a Tesla, the seat would be more comfortable! (and my arms could do some of the dancing).
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2772 on: July 02, 2019, 10:24:57 PM »
Tesla Q2 2019 Vehicle Production & Deliveries
July 2, 2019
In the second quarter, we achieved record production of 87,048 vehicles and record deliveries of approximately 95,200 vehicles.

“Orders generated during the quarter exceeded our deliveries, thus we are entering Q3 with an increase in our order backlog. We believe we are well positioned to continue growing total production and deliveries in Q3.”

https://ir.tesla.com/node/20051/pdf
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2773 on: July 02, 2019, 10:43:08 PM »
S/X didn't rebound.  I wonder if Tesla can figure out a way to build demand back, if the T3 has taking away market long term, or if it's just people waiting for the new version to be delivered this year.

Low levels of S/X aren't going to be good for profits.  Q3 and Q4 deliveries were high on S/X and lower on T3s.  T3s produce less profit per car at the same GPM.  95,200 is a record for delivery, but it's an issue as to what was delivered.

S/X 27,710   27,607
T3  56,065   63,359

Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2774 on: July 02, 2019, 11:07:17 PM »
Tesla becomes best-selling brand in Norway, pushing electric car market share to almost 50%
https://electrek.co/2019/07/01/tesla-best-selling-brand-norway-electric-cars/

In June 2019 Plug-In EV Car Sales In Norway Surge To 58% Market Share
https://insideevs.com/news/357526/june-2019-plugin-sales-norway/

Quote
Tesla Driver (@M_xalher) 7/1/19, 10:15 AM
“Tesla Model 3 wipes all others off the floor.”
“Every 4th new car was a Tesla”.
Headlines in business daily DN now.
@Tesla mania continues in Norway
Tesla “by far the most sold car brand in 2019”.

Quote
Hver fjerde nybil var en Tesla
Med 3760 registreringer i juni, er Tesla Norges soleklart mest populære bilmerke.
https://www.dn.no/motor/bilsalg/tesla/elbil/hver-fjerde-nybil-var-en-tesla/2-1-630663
https://twitter.com/m_xalher/status/1145697370744770562

—-
Quote
Alp Soycengiz (@Alpsoy66) 7/1/19, 3:05 PM
European sales results continue to pour in.
Tesla has sold more cars in Portugal than in Spain in Q2. Q2 Sales in Portugal have increased 40% compared to Q1
In Italy, sales have increased 120% compared to Q1.
Southern Europe is starting to like Models3s. alot.
$tsla
https://twitter.com/alpsoy66/status/1145770398526693377

—-
Quote
Christian (@JabbaGentum) 7/1/19, 3:36 PM
In Denmark Q2: 792 units vs Q1: 413 units.
464 units in June alone.
More importantly FY2018: only 95 units and FY2017: just 98 units.
Halfway through 2019 Tesla has already sold 12x what was sold all of last year.

No demand...
https://twitter.com/jabbagentum/status/1145778265036136449


Quote
James Stephenson (@ICannot_Enough) 7/2/19, 7:43 AM
The Netherlands, Norway, and Spain have now all reported their new EV registrations for Q2.
Look at Tesla’s 2019 vs. 2018 market share— way up in all 3 countries for both quarters.
https://twitter.com/icannot_enough/status/1146021538401062912
Data image below.
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oren

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2775 on: July 02, 2019, 11:32:08 PM »
I must say I am positively surprised. I was very far from certain Tesla would hit the 90k mark, let alone 95k which I thought was very low chance.
The stock market seems to feel the same with a 7% upswing (at time of writing).

KiwiGriff

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2776 on: July 03, 2019, 12:21:07 AM »
Quote
S/X didn't rebound.  I wonder if Tesla can figure out a way to build demand back,
The rumor is that the S and X will get an interior upgrade, exterior refresh and the new Maxwell  battery tech some time in the next year.
Tesla is a moving target for the legacy industry to aim at.
They have not yet caught up to the first S85 from 2012 let alone were Tesla are now and intend going. 
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2777 on: July 03, 2019, 01:57:03 AM »
Image 1:  “Analyst” delivery estimates

Image 2:  Q2 “Demand Cliff”   ::)

From:
https://twitter.com/teslany/status/1146189150326087680

https://twitter.com/vincent13031925/status/1146181973112524800
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NeilT

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2778 on: July 03, 2019, 04:39:42 AM »
Some data on charging a Tesla 3 Long Range.  The owner pulled into the 250 kW Supercharger with 10 miles of range left.  2%.  When charging started the car's range gained 6 miles of range in the first minute.  Those are the first two data points in the table below.

Those timings are interesting because they actually run contra to the cell manufacturers guidelines on charging times for the cells.

Also, according to the manufacturers guidelines, if you charge 40% to 90%, you get thousands of recharges.  If you charge 2% to 90% you will get somewhere less than 1,500 and, in certain cases, less than 1,000, before the battery starts to degrade.

These are not surmises, they are the manufacturers stated cycle guides before degradation sets in.

I'd love to know how they have achieved this as the manufacturers guide states the cells can't take the rate of charge as they approach 90% and even less over 90%.  Somewhere, long back in this thread, is a video of a Model3 and the time it takes to charge it.  Granted not on a 250kw charger, but, then again, it was not drawing the full power of the charger later in the cycle so 250kw should not make any difference.

As for the 80/20, you are assuming availability of superchargers and, even then, you are assuming that everyone wants to drive right down to low % levels before charging.  My wife regularly drives from France to the UK, the nearest superchargers, on the route, are well over 300 miles from our home in France.  My wife also says she doesn't want to stop, in the middle of the night, at a place she does not know, in order to "fill up".  She doesn't need some whacky hybrid car, her Citroen C8 7 seater MPV has an average range of around 700 miles, driven around 70mph, some 650 miles when driven around 80,mph.  She can get to any of the French ports with that range.

There are significant numbers of people who travel quite a distance on holiday, tow on holiday and even caravan on weekends or for short breaks.  Seen any caravan charging points?  I haven't.  You'd need to drop the caravan, charge up and then hitch up again before moving on.

On the driving side, I have driven well over 1,000 miles in a single hop several times and twice I've driven 1,500 miles in a 24 hour period.  Granted I slept in the car for 2-3 hours during that time.  However that is only one charging stop if you see it that way.  Over and above that, it included extended periods of high speed cruising on the Autobahn (over 100mph for significant periods, 100-125mph for shorter periods as the engine didn't like it).

Judging by the way my C8 dropped MPG towing two of my motorcycles on a trailer, my journey form the UK to France would have necessitated at least 3-4 charging stops.  In my C8 it was a single hop although I did reduce the range from 700 miles to just over 500 miles when towing.  You can see the impact it would have on a Tesla.

I don't believe that my "20%" is quite so far from reality.  The problem is that current EV purchases are low hanging fruit from the 80%.  The noise comes from those it won't suit today.

LOVE to know how they get around the 45 minute charge time for the cells to 90% though...
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NeilT

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2779 on: July 03, 2019, 04:52:24 AM »
The interesting point, for me, is that GSY and the bears went on and on about how Tesla couldn't "manufacture the S/X at a profit" so how could they possible make a profit with Model 3.

Now it is "Not enough HIGH PROFIT S/X being sold so Tesla won't make a profit"..

I wonder when the reality stick will strike and everyone works out that both S/X and M3 are profitable.  It's just that in order to grow and transition the business, the costs are higher than the profits. For now.

Given that the above statement is true, it is simply a matter of selling enough models (of any variant), in order to produce enough profit to cover the costs of the growth and transition of the business.  Giga3 should help with that a lot.

This is far and away from a distressed  credit story and much more an emerging company story.  I read recently that in order to be a real player in the US car market you need to be selling 1M+ cars.  Any less and you are a niche vendor and liable to being squeezed out.

That being true, Tesla needs a new gigafactory in the US, one more in Europe and another one in Asia.

All of which is going to depress any profits for quite some time to come.  Although the energy and self drive/ride hailing initiatives could change that whole picture dramatically over the next 5 years.

I guess we wait for the earnings call then remember that Tesla has enough cash on hand, from it's recent capital raise, to operate well into 2020 at Q1 profit levels.

By which time we will know that Giga3 story very well and will have a much better view of where Tesla is going.

More waiting.
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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2780 on: July 03, 2019, 08:07:45 AM »
Those timings are interesting because they actually run contra to the cell manufacturers guidelines on charging times for the cells.

Neil, again: You don't charge a single cell when you charge your car. You charge a battery which has cells and a BMS managing the cells.

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2781 on: July 03, 2019, 10:26:25 AM »
Quote
Also, according to the manufacturers guidelines, if you charge 40% to 90%, you get thousands of recharges.  If you charge 2% to 90% you will get somewhere less than 1,500 and, in certain cases, less than 1,000, before the battery starts to degrade.
  1000 cycles at 300miles a cycle is 300,000 miles more than most ICE cars are on the road for before they are scrapped.
There are Tesla that have done more than 300,000 miles supercharging as much as 4 times a day to 95%.
Tesloop has documented their cars under such extreme conditions.
https://www.tesloop.com/blog/2018/8/2/model-x-90d-300000-miles-in-two-years
Quote
Disclaimer: Tesla recommends a charge limit of no more than 80% for daily driving. Tesloop regularly Supercharges its vehicles four times a day to up to 95% of the full battery’s capacity for the Shuttle service type. This Model X is grandfathered in with free Supercharging for life.

High Voltage Battery Degradation: After 2 years of extreme utilization the current battery pack has lost 12.6% of its original capacity yielding range of approximately 214 miles when the charge limit is set to 95%. Tesloop has noticed that their 2016 Model X’s degradation has essentially plateaued after about 9 months.
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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2782 on: July 03, 2019, 12:55:07 PM »
Could also go to the 'bad journalism' thread. In an article about Tesla's great numbers this quarter, right there at the end, they can't let the reader go without putting some FUD in their pocket!

Quote
“Delivery numbers are important, but we need to see the tea leaves look good for the second half,” Ives said in an interview. Tesla’s production target for the year is “still an Everest task, especially with competition coming at them from all angles. The real question is going to be, is this sustainable?”

...

The company also recently lost one of its top manufacturing executives at its Fremont plant, Peter Hochholdinger, who was vice president of production.

Tesla’s stock has lost almost a third of its value over the last year and the company’s market cap is at about $40 billion.
Link >> https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/02/tesla-q2-2019-production-and-delivery-numbers.html

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2783 on: July 03, 2019, 01:25:14 PM »
So what should we expect of q2 figures. q1 is best starting point.

12100 S/X deliveries out of 63000 were about 19.2% of sales
17650 out of 95200 is about 18.5% of sales

Yes it isn't as high a percentage but it isn't much below. So assuming same average price and margin for vehicles is perhaps marginally on optimistic side but seems to me to give a good stating point.

So q1 automotive sales $3,509m cost of automotive sales $2,856m for 63000 vehicles
become for 95200 vehicles: sales $5302m coas $4,316m
Automotive sales gross profit improves from $653m to $986m an improvement of $333m

If these assumptions are reasonable and everything else stays the same, that means loss reduces from $702m to $369m.

Can stand losses of circa $369m for a couple of quarters until china factory is up and running. But even then:

If china factory can quickly get to producing 32,200 vehicles a quarter, that still only adds another $333m gross profit and I would suspect more expenses than the transport savings.

q1 also sold 95,200 vehicles while producing only 87,048 so also need to assume they can up production in existing facilities by a further 8k vehicles in a quarter. (Guidance "well
positioned to continue growing production and deliveries" seems optimistic on this.)

With growth in other divisions, might be able to get to break even before model Y.

Maybe model Y and other projects will work out better, but the path to profits doesn't seem clear.

From this quick analysis:
If the loss is less than $350m, I think we should be impressed and relieved that it is looking okish.
If the loss is more than $400m, then I think there may well be more reason for concern.
(There may need to be adjustment for any one off factors.)

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2784 on: July 03, 2019, 01:41:11 PM »
Nice analysis. I think some of the cost of sales derives from fixed plant depreciation costs, which do not scale up when production is increased. So the loss might be a bit better than calculated, maybe less than $300M.

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2785 on: July 03, 2019, 02:33:29 PM »
Nice analysis. I think some of the cost of sales derives from fixed plant depreciation costs, which do not scale up when production is increased. So the loss might be a bit better than calculated, maybe less than $300M.

True.

otoh something I forgot to mention: the automotive sales margin in q1 was down to 18.6% from 23.3%. I doubt that is all down to none scaling costs like depreciation. If some is due to price cuts part way through q1 then the margin may have further to fall.

Another thing with the S&X proportions: If it is high end model 3s that are eating into low end S and X models then the mix within model 3 and within S/X could both be improving.

Overall, still tend to think my adjustments are a little on the optimistic side.

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2786 on: July 03, 2019, 11:03:14 PM »
I was deep into a detailed reply on my mobile, which I hate typing on, when it occurred to me that it will just spam the thread. Jim has posted the relevant info in a video from Euan on the batteries thread.  I then burned a whole week of free time following up on studies and results.

Short version.  BMS and parallel charging give you no freebies on charge times when the whole pack is discharged.  Something has changed either in the cell tolerance or in the cooling system. I'm sure there will be an article about it some day as you can't charge an older Model S/X this way.

As for cycles and degradation? Let me give two points from my reading. 

0% to 40% has the same cycle hit as 0% to 90% but you get less than half the miles.

Dissection of pouch cells to search for degradation showed that crystallised and damaged cells were reporting higher power available than undamaged cells.

Granted the cells that Tesla use are more robust, but the same chemistry issues exist.

Hence my words of caution when making claims based on stats from exemplary usage.  As the Tesla's run into the millions, usage patterns will change and new problems will occur.

Today the EV products are fit for the vast majority of road users.  But that is not all, regardless of whether that gap is my 20% or something more like 5%, it is still a gap to be closed before universal acceptance.
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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2787 on: July 03, 2019, 11:42:10 PM »

If china factory can quickly get to producing 32,200 vehicles a quarter, that still only adds another $333m gross profit and I would suspect more expenses than the transport savings.

<snip>

(There may need to be adjustment for any one off factors.)

Are we sure that the profit margin on the China output will be as low as the Fremont plant? Labour is cheaper, local materials are cheaper and the locally produced M3's will attract local subsidies allowing Tesla to keep prices higher and margins higher.  I have seen allusions to this but no detailed analysis.

On the one off costs, we are looking at the writing and testing of FSD software, a complete ride hailing system, operational costs for the S/X refresh and the new components and panels, let alone the rejig of the production lines for Model Y.

This is without any new costs for ramping up the Solar energy business.

Any idea where we would see the breakdown of this?
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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2788 on: July 04, 2019, 12:13:59 AM »

If china factory can quickly get to producing 32,200 vehicles a quarter, that still only adds another $333m gross profit and I would suspect more expenses than the transport savings.

<snip>

(There may need to be adjustment for any one off factors.)

Are we sure that the profit margin on the China output will be as low as the Fremont plant? Labour is cheaper, local materials are cheaper and the locally produced M3's will attract local subsidies allowing Tesla to keep prices higher and margins higher.  I have seen allusions to this but no detailed analysis.

On the one off costs, we are looking at the writing and testing of FSD software, a complete ride hailing system, operational costs for the S/X refresh and the new components and panels, let alone the rejig of the production lines for Model Y.

This is without any new costs for ramping up the Solar energy business.

Any idea where we would see the breakdown of this?

Margins: yes that is possible, costs are likely to be lower. My only comment would be if wages are still noticeably lower, are there enough people with enough disposable income to afford these high prices (even after the subsidies)?

The statement of operations has a single line:

Research and development 340,174 356,297 367,096

That doesn't seem to be varying much.

There are intangibles in the balance sheet:
Intangible assets, net 273,568 282,492
However, note 3 on page 16 of the 10Q indicate this is all on purchase of Solar city. Therefore it appears they are not capitalising any of their own R&D.

This gets us a total for each quarter but doesn't get us any nearer to a breakdown of the costs.

If they get to a $350m loss and the R&D is about the same amount then it won't be unreasonable to say the R&D is causing the loss and without that they would be breaking even.

Perhaps sounds rather better than making a large loss.

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2789 on: July 04, 2019, 01:24:32 AM »
Crandles, your "middle" of the road assessment seems too conservative to me. It ignores things like:

For the first time in 2 quarters, no workforce reduction.
Model S and X were updated, significantly, with implied cost reduction.
Record sales on the same line. Fix cost savings.
The Model 3 production line is continually made more efficient.
Hi ASP for RHD Model 3, the initial wave is always the priciest models.

And for the sake of balance, one thing that I think will bring profits down, leases. But honestly I have no idea how they account for those.

Frankly, after seeing the sales results I expect profits.
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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2790 on: July 04, 2019, 02:54:08 AM »
Want to drive a safe car?  A Tesla is one of the best — and your car gets safer as time goes on.

Quote
In a new round of testing, the European New Car Assessment Programme (Euro NCAP) awarded the Model 3 its highest rating of five stars. In crash testing, the Model 3 posted a 96 percent score for how it protects adults. It got an 86 for keeping kids safe, and 74 for how it treats “vulnerable road users” like pedestrians. (That last test involves firing what looks like a half-bowling ball, intended to simulate a pedestrian’s head, into the windshield at 25 mph, then examining how the vehicle absorbs the energy of the impact.)

What stands out in the new European results is not just that the Model 3 can take a beating, but that it can avoid one. Of the six cars that earned five stars, the Model 3 is the only one with a “safety assist” score over 80 percent. Its 94 percent is among the highest scores ever seen on a test for that category.
...
“Its Collision Avoidance Assist system is first class,” Matthew Avery, Thatcham’s director of research and Euro NCAP board member, said in a statement.
TESLA MODEL 3 CAN SURVIVE A CRASH—AND AVOID ONE TOO
https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-model-3-can-survive-crash-avoid-one-too/

Model 3 earns 5-Star Safety Rating from Euro NCAP
https://www.tesla.com/blog/model-3-earns-5-star-safety-rating-euro-ncap

Quote
Elon Musk (@elonmusk) 7/3/19, 6:27 PM
Reason for top rating is that active steering & braking safety features of Tesla Autopilot are turned on no cost for all cars
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1146546049932070912

< Safety first. And the car keeps getting safer. I have owned a Tesla for 3 years and it's light years ahead of where it ones when I picked it up. No TACC to NOA in 3 years is amazing progress given no one has done anything useful anywhere else.
Elon Musk (@elonmusk) 7/3/19, 6:51 PM
Best crash safety system is not crashing in the first place. Makes a world of difference for pedestrians & cyclists especially.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1146551947161296896

Elon Musk (@elonmusk) 7/3/19, 7:16 PM
Active safety will continue to improve via over-the-air software updates. Since all Tesla cars are connected, we analyze each accident & do our best to minimize probability of recurrence.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1146558452115730433

Also: when Repair and Service are not profit centers, it helps the bottom line to prevent accidents from happening in the first place.
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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2791 on: July 04, 2019, 03:58:11 AM »
Quote
Tesla Daily (@TeslaPodcast)
7/2/19, 4:40 PM
#ThrowbackTuesday to 6 weeks ago when Adam Jonas of Morgan Stanley told @business that Wall St expected "mid to upper 70,000" vehicles delivered in Q2-19.

Actual: 95,200
https://twitter.com/teslapodcast/status/1146156792239538176

Tesla Daily Unofficial Podcast
Discussion:
- Tesla was about 6,000 vehicles short of delivering as many vehicles in Q2 2019 as the sum of the seven previous Q2’s combined!
- 95k is right in the middle of Tesla’s guidance, which restores credibility in their announcements.
- Just 6 weeks ago, Wall Street analyst consensus was deliveries in the mid 70’s.  How can we take them seriously for their estimates years out?  Wall Street has done no better than people on Reddit or Twitter.
https://techcastdaily.com/2019/07/02/q2-19-delivery-production-report-07-02-19/

——
“Tesla Killers” in the U.S. have failed to keep the Model X from rising to the #2 position, from #3. ;D

https://twitter.com/teslahistorian/status/1146530047353860096
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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2792 on: July 04, 2019, 04:31:21 AM »
Want to drive a safe car?  A Tesla is one of the best — and your car gets safer as time goes on.

Quote
In a new round of testing, the European New Car Assessment Programme (Euro NCAP) awarded the Model 3 its highest rating of five stars. In crash testing, the Model 3 posted a 96 percent score for how it protects adults. It got an 86 for keeping kids safe, and 74 for how it treats “vulnerable road users” like pedestrians. (That last test involves firing what looks like a half-bowling ball, intended to simulate a pedestrian’s head, into the windshield at 25 mph, then examining how the vehicle absorbs the energy of the impact.) ...

Quote
Anner J. Bonilla (@annerajb) 7/3/19, 7:45 AM
Definitely safest car in the world not just for the driver. #tesla #model3
https://twitter.com/annerajb/status/1146384577600135168
At the link:  ~10sec video clip of testing TM3 Automatic Emergency Braking vs. pedestrian, and bicyclist.
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NeilT

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2793 on: July 04, 2019, 11:48:11 AM »
Hi Crandles, thanks for the details.  What I was musing more about was rhe opex costs of the upcoming changes.  My experience is that the company rarely breaks it out as it can't be depreciated.  In short they have to just take it on the chin out of cash flow/profitability.

China is an interesting case where the areas of special economic interest have the money but the outlying areas provide the resources to do the grunt work at much lower wages. It gives China a unique market where there is constant inflow of lower wage workers keeping the wages down whilst the goods they produce provide wealth for those areas but not the whole economy.  It allows bubbles which can be regulated by bringing more "poor" into the wealthy areas to work and cool the bubbles down.

As such, demand should remain high at the higher prices whilst wage costs should not intrude too much.

When I was last in shanghai I had just ordered a new Alienware laptop.  In Shanghai there is a direct Dell outlet where you can go and try the products.  My Laptop, ordered direct from Dell, was cheaper in the UK.  Totally bizarre, but it is what it is.
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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2794 on: July 04, 2019, 12:03:43 PM »
Sig, NCAP is giving the lane departure and overtaking features of EU manufactured cars a higher safety rating.  With the safety features of the Tesla vehicles, it would be impossible to give Tesla's anything else.  Since there is no long body of evidence for any of the systems, it is no more than an educated guess.

People fall asleep all the time, people pull out on other vehicles all the time.  Any systems to avoid the cosequences are going to get a better safety record than cars without them.  I had a car transporter pull out on me today with a speed differential of 50mph and about 200yds of distance.  When I was in the Army ADAT tested my unit and my reaction times came out in the top 0.1%.  Truly, the tester told me to worry about the people behind me.  Yet, today, I was tired and it was closer than I would have liked. Tesla systems would have helped.

On another note, I pulled back onto the road from the kerb early this morning and there was nothing in sight.  100m later there was a very sleek car closing very fast.  Closer inspection revealed a Tesla sign on the front..  Model3, very nice looking in the flesh.
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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2795 on: July 04, 2019, 04:36:49 PM »
Sig, NCAP is giving the lane departure and overtaking features of EU manufactured cars a higher safety rating.  ...
...

I love the ‘Dynamic Brake Lights’ feature seen on some cars on the EU.  Wish we had this in the U.S.!

From a March 2019 European update note:
Tesla pushes Dynamic Brake Lights that warns other drivers of rapid braking
Quote
“If you are driving over 50 km/h and brake forcefully, the brake lights will now flash quickly to warn other drivers that your car is rapidly slowing down,” reads the description for Tesla’s Dynamic Brake Lights feature. In addition to flashing the tail lights in situations that call for unexpected heavy braking, the vehicle will also flash its hazard lights.
“If your car stops completely, the hazard warning lights will flash until you press the accelerator or manually press the hazard warning lights button to turn them off.”
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-dynamic-brake-lights-model-3-software-update/
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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2796 on: July 05, 2019, 02:59:49 AM »
My 11 year old C8 does the hazard warning lights when the Abs engages on heavy braking.
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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2797 on: July 05, 2019, 05:52:44 PM »
Quote
I think we should agree that share price performance this year looks terrible and so it should be with the awful q1 results which are not easily explained away.

I don't have a problem with understanding why Q1 results were what they were.  Only half as many S/X were produced and delivered as normal.  Deliveries (sales) had been running from about 22k to 28k per quarter but fell to 12k.  And a lot of T3s produced in Q1 were stuck in transit which meant that they wouldn't be counted as sales until Q2.

Something I haven't seen mentioned is that in Q3 and Q4 2018 more cars were delivered than produced.  Some of the last two quarters' profits came from earlier production. 

I think we need to quit looking only a quarters as much as we do and look at running 12 month averages.  Smooth out some of the events that can drive numbers up or down for a short period and look at the larger picture.

Share prices have been driven down and the reason is easily understood.  There has been a barrage of negative press about Tesla and it's replaced almost all the positive press Tesla had been getting.  Two years back Tesla's stock price was 'aspirational'.  Buyers saw a company with a likely extraordinary future based on the cars they were producing and the rapidity at which they were growing.  Tesla cars were held up as an example of what cars should be and what future cars would be.

Then the negative press started up.  Musk has been the victim of a character assassination.  Tesla cars have been derided over some small flaws in their paint and some panel gaps that weren't perfect.  Very little is said about the three Tesla models being the top three safest cars manufactured.  Nothing much about the comparative cost to drive a mile.  Nothing about Tesla batteries now exceeding 300,000 miles and still retaining well over 80% capacity.

Tesla is under attack.  I'm not sure who is participating in the attack other than some stock short sellers. There certainly are others who could be involved.  The oil industry, traditional car manufacturers and their dealers, the Russians who lost major income to SpaceX all come to mind.  And the paid press has no reason to defend Tesla seeing how Tesla does not buy advertising.  The oil industry and traditional car manufacturers spend billions upon billion each year buying advertising.  I'm left with suspicions.

Moving this here and I think my reply is still largely:

I think we should agree that share price performance this year looks terrible and so it should be with the awful q1 results which are not easily explained away.

Your explanation might be more convincing if you attributed values to your explanations.

Yes S/X deliveries dropped by over 15450
Quote
Deliveries
Qtr_____Model 3__S/X___Total
Q4 2018 63,150 27,550 90,700
Q1 2019 50,900 12,100 63,000
Q2 2019 77,550 17,650 95,200

The margin lost on these is substantial. Certainly quite a bit more than 15450/90700 of q4 automotive margin of $1415m which is $241m probably more like $370m (using double the gross profit on S & X sales than on M3).

The vehicles in transit dropped from 10600 to over 7400 at end of Q2 which hopefully is a more normal quarter (after international deliveries have started and before China factory running) so that is only a difference of 3200 vehicles and hopefully you now accept that it is only the margin on these vehicles. So maybe $50m of loss explained in this way.

These explanations are not enough to explain the loss.

Add in a 12,250 delivery drop in M3 sales and you would be getting nearer to being able to claim you are explaining most of the loss.

Some explanations explain the loss but do not necessarily mean the loss should be dismissed. Notional movement from one quarter to another may be a more appropriate action. Looking at 4 consecutive quarters does ease the issue. OTOH it also means less focus on latest results. So I feel it is better to assess size of effects you are trying to use to explain the loss to see if it stacks up. ymmv

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2798 on: July 05, 2019, 08:07:11 PM »
In terms of share price you have to factor in credibility and avarice.  In Q3/4 2018 the shorts took a beating and Musk reiterated his belief that Tesla would remain profitable for every quarter going forward.

Roll forward to the end of Q1 2019 and Tesla missed guidance fairly spectacularly.

Clearly the newer M3 cut into S/X sales, plus the reduction in subsidy cut demand and Tesla had to make good on their $35k M3 promise just to keep momentum.

The thing is Musk and Tesla were more focused on burning shorts than in the obvious.  Tesla were going into their worst performing quarter with 2/3 of the model line up stale, a reduction in rebate from the government and a huge R&D tail which cannot be easily deferred.

Had Tesla and Musk said that they expected Q1 to be a small loss and the remainder of the year to be profitable, then the markets would not have reacted the way they did.

But Tesla knew they were going to have to raise funds for FSD and Robotaxi, plus the model Y ramp up and potential new battery manufacturing cost. From the Maxwell acquisition.

A little less optimism may have reduced the stock price impact a lot more, but it would not have had that satisfying short burn feeling.

Perhaps they will live and learn.  Perhaps not.
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2799 on: July 05, 2019, 08:32:31 PM »
I like the INSIDEEVs analysis of the situation.

Even if the do ignore Solar roof and the energy business and also the FCA deal to dig them out of the EU regulatory mess they have got themselves into.
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

Robert A. Heinlein