War, War, War

[johnm33]

That's not the point, still he would be unable to travel wherever he likes and Israel is very small, means would make kind of a very restraint "prison"

Not as small as Gaza obviously where 2million+ were confined.

[morganism]

Iran's Axis of Resistance Claims New Front Against Israel

A militia based in the Arab island nation of Bahrain has claimed its first-ever attack on Israel, marking what would be a fifth front opened by forces of the Iran-aligned Axis of Resistance coalition since the beginning of the nearly 7-month-old war in the Gaza Strip.

The group, known as the Al-Ashtar Brigades and styling itself as the Islamic Resistance in Bahrain, issued a statement Thursday announcing that it had targeted the headquarters of the Israeli company Trucknet Enterprises—said to be "responsible for land transportation in the Zionist entity"—in the southern Israeli port city of Eilat, also called Umm al-Rashrash, last Saturday with a drone.

The attack, according to the group, was conducted "in support of the Palestinian cause and in support of our people resisting in Gaza."

"The Islamic Resistance in Bahrain confirms that it is continuing its movement and support at all levels for our patient people in the resistant Gaza," the group said, "and that it will not stop its operations unless the Zionist aggression against Gaza stops."

https://www.newsweek.com/irans-axis-resistance-claims-new-front-against-israel-1896718

[zenith]

the united states empire is going to take everything down with it.

ICC (Int'l Criminal Court) is finished

[Neven]

Very good analysis of the situation in Ukraine - as often the case - from Brian Berletic:



Compare the current situation to the analysis on this thread from almost 2 years ago (and people still think and talk that way, calling for more escalation and slaughter):

I see Ukraine defensive positions probably eating up RF materiel and personnel while minimizing their own losses.  I see Ukrainian resources using too few but much superior technology against old, poorly-maintained materiel and demoralized personnel.  Given Ukraine's armament production being distributed to much of the Democratic world, I think Russia cannot win a slow war.  And that's what we have. My thinking is certainly shaped by Perun's videos, but he's no slouch in analyzing such matters.

I think it would probably be a mistake for Ukraine to launch major offensives, tactically.  At the moment, it's a war of attrition.  And some tactical retreats, especially against massed Russian offensives, is probably wise.

[johnm33]

Martin Armstrongs computer program indicates tomorrow 7^th as a significant day, he's convinced that the Neocons are desperate to provoke a war they can blame on Russia, I'm not so sure they're quite that insane, anyways a long but interesting talk with 'USAwatchdog' Greg Hunter
https://rumble.com/v4t442n-you-need-2-years-of-food-martin-armstrong.html

[Neven]

An all-out war isn't good for wealth concentration, so I'd be surprised if the traitors in the West weren't careful to avoid it if bluff really comes top shove, although professional lunatic Macron does make one unsure.

[KiwiGriff]

Compare the current situation to the analysis on this thread from almost 2 years ago (and people still think and talk that way, calling for more escalation and slaughter):

1 What was the USSR is not  Russia.
2 Ukraine  had a guarantee to respect its  boarders from Russia when it gave up its ex soviet nuclear weapons .
3 Russia invaded Ukraine first in  Crimea then attempted to invade and take over the entire country.
4 Russian actions are the aggressor here whatever it takes to return all of Ukraine to Ukraine sovereign control is not escalation it is a defensive action against  Russian aggression .

Vatniks think giving Ukraine the weapons it needs to secure its integrity against Russian aggression  is escalation.

Russia has already lost far more than it has gained.
The longer it takes for Russia  to realize this the worst it will be for the Russian people.

NATO and the West are only getting stronger as Russia self destructs.

Deluded Vatniks are happy to watch Russia destroy itself by fighting a war of its own creation it can never  win .

 
   
     

[zenith]

the end of the escalation ladder, next stop nukes.

Russia's final warning to Macron and Cameron

[Rodius]

Compare the current situation to the analysis on this thread from almost 2 years ago (and people still think and talk that way, calling for more escalation and slaughter):

1 What was the USSR is not  Russia.
2 Ukraine  had a guarantee to respect its  boarders from Russia when it gave up its ex soviet nuclear weapons .
3 Russia invaded Ukraine first in  Crimea then attempted to invade and take over the entire country.
4 Russian actions are the aggressor here whatever it takes to return all of Ukraine to Ukraine sovereign control is not escalation it is a defensive action against  Russian aggression .

Vatniks think giving Ukraine the weapons it needs to secure its integrity against Russian aggression  is escalation.

Russia has already lost far more than it has gained.
The longer it takes for Russia  to realize this the worst it will be for the Russian people.

NATO and the West are only getting stronger as Russia self destructs.

Deluded Vatniks are happy to watch Russia destroy itself by fighting a war of its own creation it can never  win .
   

What you have said tells me you do not understand the Russian side of the equation and are not taking into account the history of the situation.

The things to have consideration for are:
1 - Russia was promised by the US and NATO that they wouldn't move any further East. I cant recall the exact date of this but it was decades ago (as in, just after WW2 but don't quote me on that timeframe as I am too lazy to get the exact date)

2 - since then, NATO has expanded East a few times, the US has placed military bases increasingly close to the Russian borders.

3 - The US has ruined all attempts for Russia to integrate with the European economy so they can combine the world a bit more and increase the wealth of all involved.

4 - when looking at the history of US promises, its track record is appalling. The US can not be trusted to follow through on anything they say.

Then in 2020 Ukraine was given provisional acceptance into NATO. It is called an Enhanced Opportunity Partner which brings NATO to the border of Russia in a very uncomfortable manner.... NATO/US, both of which are untrustworthy when they promise things and only follow the so called international rules when it suits them, might have promised to go no further but the history screams they are not trustworthy.

Given this information, is it really surprising that Russia decided to move into Ukraine and a means to put distance between themselves and NATO?

As for Crimea... as far as I can tell, Crimea wanted independence and has no real close affiliation to Ukraine or Russia and would have been happy without them both out of the picture. Still, Russia was probably wanted it for better access to the Black Sea. Either way, what is happening with Ukraine is different to Crimea, so might be easier to separate the two situations.

To me, what Russia is doing is more about protecting their borders from aggressive actors, so they are not losing because they are defending their land from encroachment from the US. The US doesn't have the stomach for an outright war if it involves having their own people killed in the process so they use NATO and European powers to do it for them. It is a no-lose game for the US while everyone else suffers.

I am sure people will poke holes into my thinking (which is fine, I get to understand the situation differently), but I think I am relatively close.

[zenith]

As for Crimea... as far as I can tell, Crimea wanted independence and has no real close affiliation to Ukraine or Russia and would have been happy without them both out of the picture. Still, Russia was probably wanted it for better access to the Black Sea. Either way, what is happening with Ukraine is different to Crimea, so might be easier to separate the two situations.

i recently learned from jacques baud that crimea was independent from the soviet union 6 months before ukraine was, when ukraine gained it's independence they were lumped together but that independence was based on ukraine being neutral (it was in the constitution until it was changed after the 2014 coup) and not having a civil war against ethnic russians. crimea was part of russia for hundreds of years and something like 90% of the population is russian.

[KiwiGriff]

Yes NEVEN  I asked for actual proof of his claim .
By delating my request you are simply allowing  pro Russian propaganda free reign  ..yet again .
There  is no  agreement between NATO  and Russia or the USSR about NATO expansion.
If you deny this you give us the text and title of the signed treaty.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/115204.htm#:~:text=NATO%20promised%20Russia%20it%20would%20not%20expand%20after%20the%20Cold%20War&text=Such%20an%20agreement%20was%20never,included%20provisions%20on%20NATO%20membership.

[Neven]

It is well known that the promise was made, and it's not just the Russians saying this, but so do the Americans involved with the affair. The Russians made the mistake of trusting the West/US on their word and should have asked for a confirmation in writing.

Still, who would have expected a defensive military alliance to continue to expand once its raison d'être had become redundant after the collapse of the Soviet Union? Only the people who know how war rackets work.

There was a chance for a very long-lasting peace, disarmament, cooperation and trade. The people who love war decided otherwise, so now we're back to 1917.

[Rodius]

Yes NEVEN  I asked for actual proof of his claim .
By delating my request you are simply allowing  pro Russian propaganda free reign  ..yet again .
There  is no  agreement between NATO  and Russia or the USSR about NATO expansion.
If you deny this you give us the text and title of the signed treaty.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/115204.htm#:~:text=NATO%20promised%20Russia%20it%20would%20not%20expand%20after%20the%20Cold%20War&text=Such%20an%20agreement%20was%20never,included%20provisions%20on%20NATO%20membership.

Not one more inch.....

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early

[johnm33]

For “complex military and leadership issues” read fighting the Russian Army, says a Canadian military source. “Look at the dates of the alleged offences. The first was December 2021 – when the US was preparing the Ukrainians and the NATO support units to go to war against Russia in a surprise attack on Donetsk and Lugansk. Then Kearney allegedly got more emphatic and negative between January and November last year. This was when even the US Joint Chiefs of Staff were warning the White House not to support the Kiev regime’s counteroffensive of that summer. That disaster was obvious by the time Kearney was saying so in November 2023, and the court martial preparations began against him.”

From John Helmer 'Dances with bears' my bold

[zenith]

we've entered the final chapter of this saga and russia has laid down the law to the western dilettantes, escalate further and get nuked. they're done playing.

WARRIOR UPDATE WITH SCOTT RITTER EPISODE 67 - ZELENSKY ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT/BATTLEFIELD DISASTER

[Neven]

There was a chance for a very long-lasting peace, disarmament, cooperation and trade. The people who love war decided otherwise, so now we're back to 1917.

And who are these people who love war (rackets)? Well, they're everywhere. In Russia, Ukraine, the EU, but the mightiest of them all are obviously in the richest society the world has ever seen, where corporations and government are jointly fulfilling every fascist's wet dream.

Many of them are named in this video:



It's this small group of people who do their work out of ideology, but most of all on behalf of wealth concentration (through wealth transfers from the majority to the 0.01%), that manages to so easily rile up and get support from people like KiwiGriff, Flori, BeeKnees and even many others in this thread, who are less fanatical and don't thirst so much for the blood of their (perceived) enemies.

Unfortunately, there are many more in most societies, and it seems as if there's a correlation between the percentage of war enthusiasts and the time that has passed since the last carnage. Some of the people who haven't seen war up close, crave it and go fight themselves for the adventure, out of patriotic sentiment, or to fulfil some psychological perversions. Others don't mind all that much and prefer war over peace, eager to conform to what is dished up by their national media (which is fully under the control of the small group that profits so handsomely off of war).

The process is the same every time. When will enough people see through it and resist the enemy within themselves, instead of the people on the other side of some arbitrary border, with whom they have much more in common than propaganda leads them to believe?

[Neven]

Meanwhile, in the West Ukrainian version of Game of Thrones:

- Alleged planned assassination on Zelensky, blamed on Russians (doesn't make much sense, as they can take him out whenever they like), but sounds more like an 'Operation Valkyrie' to me.
- Two ministers have been fired, one of them on corruption charges (which is often the best west-sponsored way of eliminating people, though not reducing corruption, just shifting it)
- Zaluzhny is made UK ambassador. A soldier is promoted to ambassador. Very logical, perfectly normal. Slava Ukraini.

Other fascinating tidbits:

- Macron says that if Russia wins, it will put missile systems in Ukraine, threatening Europe. But putting US/EU missile systems in Ukraine is just fine and not threatening Russia. What a joke that man is. Nobody should be putting missile systems in Ukraine.
- More and more European countries are announcing that they won't provide papers to Ukrainian men who are eligible to die at the front (but don't want to). The Ukrainian government is about to increase fines and prison sentences for 'draft dodgers'. The pool of fanatics and volunteers has dried up. An effort will have to be made to make sure that Ukraine fights to the last Ukrainian (to quote Lindsey Graham and many other monsters).
- The West Ukrainians are persevering in their PR stunts, this time allegedly hitting an oil refinery in Bashkiria, 1500 km from the front. This has no military strategic significance whatsoever, and further strengthens the Russian resolve, which means that the only goal is to troll to get the Russians to over-react, so that the West gets involved directly, making WW3 an inevitability (with Moscow and St Petersburg hopefully getting nuked). Is the Kerch Bridge the next PR stunt?
- And will Zelensky become the dictator of Ukraine on the 21st of May?

-----

There is no need to support Putin or Russia in whatever they do, but why on Earth would any sensible person support the corrupt West Ukrainian rabble (even worse than the corrupt Russians) and US neocon policy (which is a direct continuation of the policy that led to Iraq, Afghanistan, etc, etc, etc) that is unnecessarily costing the lives of thousands and throwing the world back decades, instead of demanding negotiations and a couple of simple concessions to the Russians (neutral Ukraine, Donbass and Crimea permanently part of the RF, no more neo-Nazi presence/domination in Ukrainian institutions, such as the army and police)?

How dumb and/or masochistic do you have to be to keep supporting that corrupt clown Zelensky, or whomever it is that Washington will select next? Based on some fake principle to which the collective West, let alone the US, has failed to adhere for decades?

Or is this some perverted way to solve AGW? What if it backfires?

[Florifulgurator]

(...)
Or is this some perverted way to solve AGW? What if it backfires?

Bingo!
How else to get rid of the Fossil Fools?
E.g. how else to convince stupid/corrupt German industry fossils that dependency on Putin gas is bad?
Suddenly Otto Normalbürger is thinking twice about home heating with gas. Greta could never have inspired such rapid  mental progress.

Not Saudi Arabia, but Russia was the greatest block on the path out of the fossil fuel age.


https://www.europeangashub.com/the-future-of-russian-gas-in-europe.html


Latest news: https://www.europeangashub.com/gazprom-makes-first-loss-since-1999.html

[Neven]

(...)
Or is this some perverted way to solve AGW? What if it backfires?

Bingo!
How else to get rid of the Fossil Fools?

By killing hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians and Russians? Will it be worth the price, Madeleine?

What if it backfires? What if your immoral green fascist Baerbock-idiocy results in an AfD-takeover?

You're not addressing the root problem of AGW. Or do you believe that when the Hunter Bidens of the world get their hands on Ukrainian/Russian resources, they won't burn them up at extortionate profits?

[cognitivebias2]

You're not addressing the root problem of AGW. Or do you believe that when the Hunter Bidens of the world get their hands on Ukrainian/Russian resources, they won't burn them up at extortionate profits?

Hunter Biden??  I'm seriously concerned about where you get your 'knowledge'.

BTW, it's a reasonable story line that Russia's invasion of Ukraine is about them cornering the resources.

[Rodius]

You're not addressing the root problem of AGW. Or do you believe that when the Hunter Bidens of the world get their hands on Ukrainian/Russian resources, they won't burn them up at extortionate profits?

Hunter Biden??  I'm seriously concerned about where you get your 'knowledge'.

BTW, it's a reasonable story line that Russia's invasion of Ukraine is about them cornering the resources.

It is a reasonable story line that Russia distrusts the West/US because the West say one thing and do whatever they want to do.

It is reasonable that Russia dislikes being surrounded by a clearly aggressive US that has intent to destroy Russia.

But people ignore those things and pretend it is Russia wanting the resources.

[cognitivebias2]

You're not addressing the root problem of AGW. Or do you believe that when the Hunter Bidens of the world get their hands on Ukrainian/Russian resources, they won't burn them up at extortionate profits?

Hunter Biden??  I'm seriously concerned about where you get your 'knowledge'.

BTW, it's a reasonable story line that Russia's invasion of Ukraine is about them cornering the resources.

It is a reasonable story line that Russia distrusts the West/US because the West say one thing and do whatever they want to do.

It is reasonable that Russia dislikes being surrounded by a clearly aggressive US that has intent to destroy Russia.

But people ignore those things and pretend it is Russia wanting the resources.

My point is made by your post, you just cannot see it.

Change your last sentence  as follows:

'People forget that there are different plausible explanations and just believe <x>'.

Replace <x> with whatever you chose to believe.  Then try to understand that your fervent defense of <x> changes nothing.

[zenith]

there's something called documented history but your cognitive bias won't allow you to accept that the united states are the baddies, which it clearly is over and over and over again.

[The Walrus]

Cognitive bias runs rampant.  Those who see the Russians as the aggressors, will believe that it is so no matter what.  Those that believe the U.S. are the baddies, will do likewise.  The same is true with Israel, Palestine, China India, Iran, etc.  No amount of information will change the minds of those with strong preconceived views.  However, there are some who can see past these biases

[zenith]

right, there's always a loophole to slip through so objective reality can be avoided.

[zenith]

anything to avoid responsibility - invoke the transcendent, exceptional being status. meanwhile all sorts of people were writing about the dire consequences of nato expansion, the orange revolution in 2004-5, the coup in 2014 and subsequent civil war, russian security concerns, and ethnic cleansing. along with that there's the open talk of wanting to destroy russia by the usofa.

russia, in no need of resources, must want ukrainian resources and iraq had weapons of mass destruction too.

it must be nice to always be the good guys and to be superior beings too.

[zenith]

"And now, the end is near
And so I face the final curtain
My friend, I'll say it clear
I'll state my case, of which I'm certain
I've lived a life that's full
I traveled each and every highway
And more, much more than this
I did it my way"

BREAKING: Russia Northern Offensive Begins

[Rodius]

Cognitive bias runs rampant.  Those who see the Russians as the aggressors, will believe that it is so no matter what.  Those that believe the U.S. are the baddies, will do likewise.  The same is true with Israel, Palestine, China India, Iran, etc.  No amount of information will change the minds of those with strong preconceived views.  However, there are some who can see past these biases

In the case of Israel, they are the baddies... genocide is typically looked at as an act of evil that should be stamped out yet the West supports them.

So... Israel commits genocide, which is evil, and the West sends the weapons to do it... which is supporting evil acts and makes those acts evil as well.

Pointing those things out does not mean everything the US and West does is evil, but it tells the story of how they will do whatever it takes to meet their ends.

Ever wondered what those ends are?
Given the evil nature of their actions, I suspect the ends are not going to be good.

If the US does something good, great... the way I look at this stuff is evil gets called out but it doesn't necessarily remove the good they do.

But when the US supplies weapons for Israel to commit genocide while pretending to send aid to the Palestinians is just washing the evil acts away... so the "good" they provide to the Palestinians isn't really a good act even though it helps the people being murdered.

This approach applies to the Ukraine situation. Russia shouldn't have attacked Ukraine but since the West is pressing upon its borders and the West is a proven liar, why would Russia trust anything the West tells them?

In fact, if you bothered to look deeper into this, you will find that the US doesn't even hide the fact they want to remove Russian progress... and yet, somehow, this is ignored by many people in the US.

Defending yourself aggressively is not a bad thing against a bad actor.
If someone threatens to punch my in the face, I feel okay hitting them first if deemed necessary. That is how I look at Russia... they are being threatened so they hit first.

[The Walrus]

Cognitive bias runs rampant.  Those who see the Russians as the aggressors, will believe that it is so no matter what.  Those that believe the U.S. are the baddies, will do likewise.  The same is true with Israel, Palestine, China India, Iran, etc.  No amount of information will change the minds of those with strong preconceived views.  However, there are some who can see past these biases

Defending yourself aggressively is not a bad thing against a bad actor.
If someone threatens to punch my in the face, I feel okay hitting them first if deemed necessary.

That is what Israel is doing.  Yet, you are calling them the baddie.

[Rodius]

Cognitive bias runs rampant.  Those who see the Russians as the aggressors, will believe that it is so no matter what.  Those that believe the U.S. are the baddies, will do likewise.  The same is true with Israel, Palestine, China India, Iran, etc.  No amount of information will change the minds of those with strong preconceived views.  However, there are some who can see past these biases

Defending yourself aggressively is not a bad thing against a bad actor.
If someone threatens to punch my in the face, I feel okay hitting them first if deemed necessary.

That is what Israel is doing.  Yet, you are calling them the baddie.

Israel is not defending itself, they are colonizers.

Also.... just to be crystal clear on this.... even IF you were correct, it still doesn't justify genocide. They would STILL BE EVIL regardless.

So yeah, either way, Israel is an evil nation that should not be supported in any way.

[gerontocrat]

Just posted on The Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/may/11/israel-gaza-war-rafah-offensive-idf-latest-news
Israel-Gaza war live: IDF orders evacuation of central Rafah as it prepares to expand its offensive

Israeli military drops leaflets ordering around a million people to leave the city as it prepares to expand its offensive
10m ago
07.38 BST

[Neven]

"And now, the end is near

I think the end is still some way off. The Russians aren't in a hurry and never have been.

[The Walrus]

Cognitive bias runs rampant.  Those who see the Russians as the aggressors, will believe that it is so no matter what.  Those that believe the U.S. are the baddies, will do likewise.  The same is true with Israel, Palestine, China India, Iran, etc.  No amount of information will change the minds of those with strong preconceived views.  However, there are some who can see past these biases

Defending yourself aggressively is not a bad thing against a bad actor.
If someone threatens to punch my in the face, I feel okay hitting them first if deemed necessary.

That is what Israel is doing.  Yet, you are calling them the baddie.

Israel is not defending itself, they are colonizers.

Also.... just to be crystal clear on this.... even IF you were correct, it still doesn't justify genocide. They would STILL BE EVIL regardless.

So yeah, either way, Israel is an evil nation that should not be supported in any way.

Let me be crystal clear on this.  What Israel is doing is NOT genocide.  Genocide is the intentional killing of a certain peoples.  This was the intent of the surrounding nations towards Israel, after the U.N. division in 1948.  If we believe Israel is evil, you have better come up with a better explanation (not counting Iran’s).

[zenith]

"And now, the end is near

I think the end is still some way off. The Russians aren't in a hurry and never have been.

just a little sinatra to set the mood. the ukrainian front was already beginning to collapse, the russians opening a new front will hasten things along. it will still be months before it ends though likely, some talk years but i doubt that. there will probably be terrorist type acts from ukraine for years.

[zenith]

Let me be crystal clear on this.  What Israel is doing is NOT genocide.  Genocide is the intentional killing of a certain peoples.  This was the intent of the surrounding nations towards Israel, after the U.N. division in 1948.  If we believe Israel is evil, you have better come up with a better explanation (not counting Iran’s).

it's the most open and shut case of genocide there could be. the israeli leadership have made their intentions perfectly clear repeatedly and their actions follow. bibi stood up before the world and invoked amalek, it's doesn't get more genocidal than that. the gazans are being bombed, starved and executed while you justify it.

1 Samuel 15:3
Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.

[zenith]

Netanyahu defies ally Joe Biden and says Israel will ‘fight with fingernails’ if US stops arms supplies
Israeli prime minister vows again to go ahead with ground offensive in Rafah, where over 1.3 million Palestinians are sheltering
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/netanyahu-biden-israel-gaza-rafah-b2542684.html

Israeli war cabinet votes to expand Rafah operation area, amid growing U.S. concerns
https://www.axios.com/2024/05/10/israel-gaza-rafah-operation-expansion

Gaza live: Israel orders new evacuations in Rafah
Israeli spokesperson orders Palestinian to flee to areas west of Gaza City ahead of new operation
KEY POINTS
- Unrwa says 110,000 have fled Rafah
- Al Aqsa Martyrs Hospital to run out of fuel in two days
- Aid groups warn of 'catastrophic' consequences of continued aid blocks

https://www.middleeasteye.net/live/gaza-live-israel-war-rafah-humanitarian-crisis

[Rodius]

Let me be crystal clear on this.  What Israel is doing is NOT genocide.  Genocide is the intentional killing of a certain peoples.  This was the intent of the surrounding nations towards Israel, after the U.N. division in 1948.  If we believe Israel is evil, you have better come up with a better explanation (not counting Iran’s).

it's the most open and shut case of genocide there could be. the israeli leadership have made their intentions perfectly clear repeatedly and their actions follow. bibi stood up before the world and invoked amalek, it's doesn't get more genocidal than that. the gazans are being bombed, starved and executed while you justify it.

1 Samuel 15:3
Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.

Israel meets all criteria for genocide.
This is not a debate... it is a fact.

Here is more information on how Israel is ignoring requests to stop being evil assholes...

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/02/israel-defying-icj-ruling-to-prevent-genocide-by-failing-to-allow-adequate-humanitarian-aid-to-reach-gaza/

Here is some more....

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/israel-clearly-committing-three-of-five-acts-defined-as-genocide-palestinian-american-lawyer/3073787

The only way not to see this situation as a genocidal act is to close your eyes, shut your ears, and ignore the evidence.

Here are some holocaust survivors calling our Israel's genocide
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/holocaust-survivors-and-their-descendants-accuse-israel-of-genocide-9687994.html

Maybe a video will help....

[zenith]

^^^ yeah, and now the united states has destroyed the credibility of the icc to protect israel.

The Russians Took 12 Villages In The Kharkiv Region In Just 1 Day

[Neven]

just a little sinatra to set the mood.

In that case, I know what you will post when the Russians capture Niu-York, or New Orc, as the West Ukrainians will then probably call it.

[The Walrus]

“Israel is an artificial state which must disappear.” - Nasser

"We plan to eliminate the state of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian state." - Arafat

“the cancerous tumor called Israel must be uprooted from the region” - Khamenei

“wipe Israel off the map” - Shirazi

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it" - al-Banna

'The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and

kill them." - Hamas Covenant, Article 7.

[zenith]

those are words from relatively powerless people... the genocidal actions are israeli actions and they have the united states at their back. there's the occupier and the occupied, the imperial colonialists and the displaced for over 75 years. of course people want their homes and land back and the european colonists out, it's been a disaster.

israel is destroying itself now.

[Florifulgurator]

“Israel is an artificial state which must disappear.” - Nasser

"We plan to eliminate the state of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian state." - Arafat

“the cancerous tumor called Israel must be uprooted from the region” - Khamenei

“wipe Israel off the map” - Shirazi

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it" - al-Banna

'The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and

kill them." - Hamas Covenant, Article 7.

Apropos genocide:
》The Palestinian people do not exist. There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are part of one people, the Arab nation. Lo and behold, I have relatives with Palestinian, Lebanese, Jordanian and Syrian citizenship. We are one people. It is only for political reasons that we carefully endorse our Palestinian identity. Indeed, it is of national interest for the Arabs to encourage the existence of the Palestinians in the face of Zionism. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity is only for tactical reasons. The establishment of a Palestinian state is a new means to continue the struggle against Israel and for Arab unity.《 https://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/Zuheir_Mohsen

》Arabs! Rise as one and fight for your sacred rights. Kill the Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, history, and religion. This saves your honor. God is with you.《  SS-Gruppenführer Haj Amin al-Husseini, mentor of Arafat

[zenith]

it's so strange that in 2024, with the history of atrocities behind us and our awareness of them, that people still defend this sort of thing. palestinians had nothing to do with what went on in europe during WWII and prior. imagine what would have happened if, after the war, everyone in bavaria was forced out and that land was granted to the jewish people. what if britain had forced everyone in scotland out and given that to the jews, do you think the scottish would have been cool with that?

instead the british gave land to them that they shouldn't have any right to give. a land that the jewish people, according to their own myths, originally took through genocide. an atheist zionist political ideology that uses the bible as a land grant, how bizarre and twisted can it get.

if they'd move into the middle east and integrated themselves peacefully it would be a different story but obviously that's not what happened. they came with an entitled, supremacist, imperial mindset and went about ethnic cleansing through terrorism, slaughter and theft. now it's blatant genocide.

[Richard Rathbone]

Let me be crystal clear on this.  What Israel is doing is NOT genocide.  Genocide is the intentional killing of a certain peoples.  This was the intent of the surrounding nations towards Israel, after the U.N. division in 1948.  If we believe Israel is evil, you have better come up with a better explanation (not counting Iran’s).

Genocide is what Israel is practicing on surrounding nations right now. It has occupied them for generations, allows Jews to murder them and steal their land with impunity and inhibits, destabilises and destroys their polities. Jews were both victims and perpetrators of genocide in  their ancient history, and they remain so in modern times.

Genocide is destruction of a protected group's identity by any means. It includes, but is not limited to, mass murder. Torturing people for speaking the wrong language is genocide, if the intent is  to wipe out the language. Kidnapping children in order to educate them in civilised behaviour is genocide, if the intent is to wipe out  the culture they are kidnapped from.

The indefinite occupation of the State of Palestine by Israel is genocide if there is a genocidal intent to it. The sheer scale of the killings by the IDF is reminiscent of the actions of Nazis in occupied Europe in WW2. There is a point at  which the number of Palestinians killed in "self-defense" becomes sufficiently large, that self defense is clearly not the only motivation. I think Israel crossed that line 20-30 years ago during its violent suppression of the Intifada. There is a point at which the continued occupation of the State of Palestine by Israel and the impunity of Jews for crimes committed against Palestinians in the State of Palestine, cross the line into genocide. I think the actions of Israel on the West Bank were getting pretty close to that point already, and the mass starvation inflicted on the civilians in Gaza has clearly crossed the line. If Israel was serious about protecting civilians it would have allowed them to flee into Israel and set  up refugee camps for them in Israel while it levelled Gaza during its military campaign. Israel is responsible for those civilians because it is the occupying power. I think keeping them imprisoned in a war zone, and obstructing the provision of the basic necessities of life to them has crossed the line into genocide. Acceptable by ancient standards e.g. Caesar's Gallic Wars,  but clearly illegal under various conventions agreed internationally over the past 150  years.

Israel claims military necessity for its killings  of civilians in Gaza, but its killed a much higher proportion of the population than the suppression of Isis did in Iraq. Those were bloody campaigns against an Islamic group dug into urban settings, just as the Gaza campaign is, but Israel is far more careless of civilian life in Gaza. If they were truly conducting a targetted campaign on Hamas without also seeking to brutalise the civilians too, casualties would have been a tenth what they have been. 5,000 civilian deaths and no starvation for the total destruction of Gaza would have been something that Israel  could use to boost its humanitarian credentials and skill at the precision use of armaments. 15,000 might pass muster as military necessity. 50,000 dead and famine throughout Gaza condemns it as genocidal.

[zenith]

Apropos genocide:
》The Palestinian people do not exist. There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are part of one people, the Arab nation.

that's a serious misrepresentation. there were peoples throughout every land that had inhabited those places 'forever' before the arab-muslim conquests. it's the same as saying that all europeans are the result of indo-european migrations/conquests (beginning 5000 yrs. ago), it's simply not true - there are layers of genetics and history that precede events. the basque people are serious throwbacks. the uralic fins and hungarians are different again.

the kurds, while speaking arabic and practicing islam, are the most ancient example. waves and waves and waves of empires, conquests, etc. and still they're genetically different, likely from natufian times. their religious practices certainly predate islam too, though they don't necessarily conflict.

[Florifulgurator]

Apropos genocide:
》The Palestinian people do not exist. There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are part of one people, the Arab nation.

that's a serious misrepresentation. (...) (...)

But you can't explain why!
(Me thinks "the Arab nation" is already BS, but negligible BS compared to other genocidal BS piled on Palestine and Israel since even before 1947. "Khaybar, Khaybar, ya yahud! Jaish Muhammad soufa yaʿoud!" etc. etc.)

[gerontocrat]

GAZA - It's all very bleak.

When I saw that Israel's army were moving into east Rafah, my immediate thought was that the strategy was to start in the East, then the centre, bottling up Hamas into West Gaza for the final assault. It seems that is what they are trying to do. BUT.....

Israel's army has moved back into North Gaza as that was claimed to have been done - i.e. eliminating Hamas there, has not been done (and never will be by Israel)

They are just sowing dragon's teeth, and are rapidly becoming THE Pariah State. Given that Netanyahu is dependent for his political survival (thus avoiding trial on corruption charges) on the most extreme Zionist factions, we must assume that the Israeli army will contiue down this destructive (and likely sellf-destructuive) path.

And the consequences for Gaza and the Palestinians living there?
- already more than half the buildings in Gaza are damaged or destroyed, with many more destroyed every day. Rafah will be destroyed.
- half of the water supply sites are damged or destroyed,
- 4 out of 6 wastewater treatment plants  are damaged or destroyed,
- the other 2 wastewater treatment plants are shut through lack of fuel and/or other supplies (e.g. chemicals)
- Doctors are reporting that patients with treatable ailments are dying even when treatment is available, having been weakened by months of malnutrition. This shows especially amongst children.
- I cannot imagine the longterm health consequences on the population that survive the war of this long period of inadequate food, inadequate potable water, inadequate shelter, insanitary living conditions, and continuous exposure to wet, cold and heat.

It is difficult to see any other end result than Gaza being unlivable, with little prospect of accessing adequate funds for any meaningful reconstruction to establish a self-sustaining society.

And the Politicians of the West, Russia, China, the East? Just playing power games.

ps: The Geneva Conventions on the conduct of war are history.

[Florifulgurator]

(...)
It is difficult to see any other end result than Gaza being unlivable, with little prospect of accessing adequate funds for any meaningful reconstruction to establish a self-sustaining society.

And the Politicians of the West, Russia, China, the East? Just playing power games.

ps: The Geneva Conventions on the conduct of war are history.

Dresden survived, Hiroshima survived, Grozny survived, etc.

Problem is, who will rule Gaza? Nobody wants it. The Egyptian fence is even stronger than Israel's. The madhouse should be theirs, but no. No-one wants them, not Jordan, not Lebanon. (There's your Apartheid!). The Arab "brothers" (sisters don't (yet) count) of the "Palestinians" have enough resources to re-build a splendid Gaza. But last time the money mostly went to Hamas billionaire psychopaths (the psychopathy of Yahya Sinwar dwarfs Hitler and Pol Pot - and he isn't the worst) and to terror infrastructure under the grounds of schools and hospitals. Under the watch of the UN a generation of psychopaths was bred, worse than Nazi Germans (who didn't have that cult of death, longing for a place in paradise after martyrdom, using women and children as human shields...)  Palestinian-Arab mental health looks worse than 1967. So, it looks way more complicated than dealing with a Japan or Germany after WW2. And the Western addiction to the Soviet-Arab terror propaganda menu, with an icing of Nazi propaganda (cf. Amin al-Husseini), and 1000 years of Muslim antisemitism baked in, as exhibited here and on real university campuses, makes it even more harder to ever get to a peaceful solution.

Looks like we need to wait for more climate catastrophe to make mankind reconsider their theories and love of psychopaths and get the feet back on the ground. Only mobilization for a common case, survival of the species, will end the madness. Alas, during the last 3 years youth climate activism has been hijacked by dumb 20th century polit activists. (E.g. Greta. I've seen the mental failure first-hand in Lützerath.)

Back to square one, Homo Sapiens!

P.S.: Hamas sh#s on any conventions. How to fight such an enemy? Should terrorists hiding under hospitals and behind children be allowed to claim victory? Hard questions for wannabe moralists.

[etienne]

Gero, among the consequences,  you forgot that traumatic  experiences often need psychological support to live more or less normally after it. Even if we would welcome the Palestinians in our countries,  which I doubt (check the successof this petition asking for Luxembourg  to welcome families of residents  https://www.change.org/p/evacuez-les-familles-des-r%C3%A9sidents-citoyens-luxembourgeois-de-gaza),  they would never be able to have a normal life again.

Added: traumatic experiences can even be transmitted to the next few generations.

[Neven]

P.S.: Hamas sh#s on any conventions. How to fight such an enemy?

If you're going to fight, fight both Hamas and Israeli Zionism. Don't fall into the trap of always blaming things on one party and then promote the Lesser Evil. It almost always makes you part of the Greater Evil and corrupts your soul.